Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;328673]i think this administrations biggest problems are the arrogance they possess, and their lack of being able to adapt if one of their plans fail. too many life long politicians hands in the cookie jar. they have made mistakes, as anyone will, but will NEVER admit to being wrong. i cant believe the the far right isn't screaming about Bush's manipulation of the Constitution, and how they are stripping Americans of their rights. the patriot act was good in thought, but bad in the way it is being executed.Bush's appointees have been nothing but dads friends, and contributors to his career. alot of bad decisions were made here. and smooty, whats up with all the Buchanan bashing? my boy lived right down the road from me[/QUOTE]

Well the Buchanan bashing wasn't so much bashing but just to point out that he's considered the worst (or one of the worst) for basically doing nothing while the country fell to pieces by saying "Hey, Constitution says I can't intervene" while W is pilloried for doing too much perhaps and saying "I have to do what I need to do. Let's worry about the Constitution later"

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Sammy Baugh Fan;328545]Yeah dewd it's all about me. Make it so if you wish. My comment was just like others but I see you quoted me. That's ok.

~same as it ever was, same as it ever was

Don't like the message shoot the messanger.[/QUOTE]

~shakes head and walks away

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328688]Sorry I got sidetracked by that little distraction.

Honestly I don't think he's done anything very well. I think he's been a complete disaster between 9/11, the war, the economy ( gas prices through the roof), and Katrina, just to name the major issues.[/QUOTE]

I agree that his foreign policy (i.e., Iraq) has been a total failure. I don't think, however, that he has been a total failure as a domestic president. The economy has been pretty good; it's not as good as it was during the internet boom, but the economy during the internet boom wasn't as good as it seemed. I don't really fault Bush for Katrina. If you pretty much demolish a city, it's going to take a while to fix it. I also applaud the basic concept of No Child Left Behind. Finally, I have no problem, in fact I support, his tax cuts. I don't care for the Dems slogan "but they're tax cuts for the rich." Those rich guys are already paying more than their share of the budget.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;328704]I agree that his foreign policy (i.e., Iraq) has been a total failure. I don't think, however, that he has been a total failure as a domestic president. The economy has been pretty good; it's not as good as it was during the internet boom, but the economy during the internet boom wasn't as good as it seemed. I don't really fault Bush for Katrina. If you pretty much demolish a city, it's going to take a while to fix it. I also applaud the basic concept of No Child Left Behind. Finally, I have no problem, in fact I support, his tax cuts. I don't care for the Dems slogan "but they're tax cuts for the rich." Those rich guys are already paying more than their share of the budget.[/quote]

My main gripe with Katrina was their painfully slow reaction time and their lack of a plan. It's not like this was any sort of huge surprise, it was bound to happen some day. I'm not totally blaming Bush because there probably should have been a plan of action in place a long time ago, but since it did happen on his watch he has to be held responsible to a degree.

Plus, and I admit this is a personal gripe of mine, I can't stand how the guy can't even speak correctly, and he comes off so damn smug I just want to strangle him. And as far as charisma and that "it factor" when it comes to leadership, the guy is so completely lacking it's downright embarrassing.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328709]Plus, and I admit this is a personal gripe of mine, I can't stand how the guy can't even speak correctly, and he comes off so damn smug I just want to strangle him. And as far as charisma and that "it factor" when it comes to leadership, the guy is so completely lacking it's downright embarrassing.[/QUOTE]

It's funny because when I hear him speak, I can feel myself wanting to tell him to "sound it out....you can read it."

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=dmek25;328673][B]i think this administrations biggest problems are the arrogance they possess, and their lack of being able to adapt if one of their plans fail.[/B] too many life long politicians hands in the cookie jar. they have made mistakes, as anyone will, but will NEVER admit to being wrong. i cant believe the the far right isn't screaming about Bush's [B]manipulation of the Constitution[/B], and how they are stripping Americans of their rights. the patriot act was good in thought, but bad in the way it is being executed.Bush's appointees have been nothing but dads friends, and contributors to his career. alot of bad decisions were made here. and smooty, whats up with all the Buchanan bashing? my boy lived right down the road from me[/quote]

I love this one...

[url=http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Cheney_tells_agency_that_Vice_Presidents_0621.html]The Raw Story | Cheney tells agency that Vice President's office is not part of the executive branch[/url]

I would call it a comedy, but it's pretty sad at this point. Left, Right, whatever.... this is ridiculous.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Sorry to go nuts with the videos... but these are priceless.

[yt]xdmzWtO086Q[/yt]
[YT]iqDo9AupnlM[/YT]

Legacy you ask?

I really think that Bush will be considered correct in his ideals, but incorrect in his methods. I think the threat of terrorism is legit, and Bush had the right mindset about it.

He is just simply so flawed in creating the policies (or appointed the correct people to do so) that address his idealistic objectives. I know that sounds generic, but it's the only way I can describe it.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=dblanch66;328669]has said that Osama "can run but he can't hide" but ..boy can he hide..We can't find him with missles, satellites, million dollar bribes[/QUOTE]

Due to the fact that there is MASSIVE bounty on his head and we have had an all out man hunt for him, AND we haven't seen him on the tube, I am assuming he's dead. He's not the type to stay silent this long, and it's not like anyone is going to bring it up that he's dead. At this point he would have said something...Bush killed him. Make that #11.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Has anyone in here seen the most recent episode of Bill Moyers Journal? If you haven't, it's an absolute must see!

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328721]Due to the fact that there is MASSIVE bounty on his head and we have had an all out man hunt for him, AND we haven't seen him on the tube, I am assuming he's dead. He's not the type to stay silent this long, and it's not like anyone is going to bring it up that he's dead. At this point he would have said something...Bush killed him. Make that #11.[/quote]

OMG, wow. Just wow, that's all I'm going to say.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;328673] i cant believe the the far right isn't screaming about Bush's manipulation of the Constitution, and how they are stripping Americans of their rights. the patriot act was good in thought, but bad in the way it is being executed.[/QUOTE]

Because only if you're guilty of something should you worry about it.
What the far left needs to realize that in order to be very protected there has to be some "rights" that need to be bent. It's give and take. No one is infridging on my constitutional rights, and I like it that way.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328721]Due to the fact that there is MASSIVE bounty on his head and we have had an all out man hunt for him, AND we haven't seen him on the tube, I am assuming he's dead. He's not the type to stay silent this long, and it's not like anyone is going to bring it up that he's dead. At this point he would have said something...Bush killed him. Make that #11.[/quote]
I tend to agree with you here.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328688]Sorry I got sidetracked by that little distraction.

Honestly I don't think he's done anything very well. I think he's been a complete disaster between 9/11, the war, the economy ( gas prices through the roof), and Katrina, just to name the major issues.[/QUOTE]

This is why I thought this would be a bush bashing thread. If you really think he has done nothing right, you're not looking, or prefer just to focus on the negative. I have mentioned several things that he has done well, you could have regurgitated one of them.

PS- 9/11 everyone thought he handled very well, the war was a decision that Dems decided to go to, the economy is in GREAT shape (yes gas prices suck but not really his fault) and Katrina was the fault of thoughless morons that couldn't lift a finger to get themselves out of the way. I think he has given too much to rescue the idiots that didn't want to leave. All those morons on their roof bitching about being rescued should have been left. No one, and I mean no one can convince me that they didn't have time. I was sitting here watching it on tv, and as soon as it passed Florida the projected path was right into New Orleans. Even if you waited just to be sure, 2 days before hand they KNEW it was coming. If 48 hours isn't enough for you to realize that you live 10+ feet BELOW sea level and need to evacuate, then you're a dee, dee, dee and I'm not concerned about your safety. I'm not going to be concerned about you if you choose not to be concerned about youself.
Why would Bush send people in early when it was dangerous? Why put others in danger for the stupidities of others? And what the "armed bandits" making life difficult...shooting helpers? Bush did the right thing by waiting, and has done too much to date. I know that is not the politically correct thing to say, and it's not the dems view, but I am not going to apologize for it. Where was all that help when Charlie hit Punta Gorda / Fort Myers? Where was all that help when Andrew hit? The problem there is the people in New Orleans have a poor me attitude and since they are "poor" they feel they should be heard and lay there until someone helps. The people in Florida are deemed as "having money" so they take care of themselves. But fact is, Punta Gorda was full of trailer parks too. Just goes to show you that Florida is full of republicans (Lee county is 80% republicans) and New Orleans is full of Democrats. DO you think it is a coincidence? I don't. Republicans are taught to fend for themselves while Dems have been taught if they can't take care of themselves (or don't want to) then someone will do it for them. Of course that doesn't apply to EVERY person, but it applies as an in general statement.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=RobH4413;328717]I really think that Bush will be considered correct in his ideals, but incorrect in his methods.[/quote]

Simple but it makes a lot of sense

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328728]This is why I thought this would be a bush bashing thread. If you really think he has done nothing right, you're not looking, or [B]prefer just to focus on the negative[/B]. I have mentioned several things that he has done well, you could have regurgitated one of them.[/quote]

I'm not bashing at all, I'm honestly looking to see what you guys have to say. I do focus on the negatives because there are so prevalant, I'll admit that. I'm not denying that he has probably done some good things, I just think the bad far outweigh the good to such a degree that it pretty much washes out what little good things he has done.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;328731]I'm not bashing at all, I'm honestly looking to see what you guys have to say. I do focus on the negatives because there are so prevalant, I'll admit that. I'm not denying that he has probably done some good things, I just think the bad far outweigh the good to such a degree that it pretty much washes out what little good things he has done.[/QUOTE]

But you did a good thing by asking me to think of a negative, cause he has done negative things...we all agree of that, even the biggest Bush lovers. So if I can do that, then the lefties here should be able to come up with one good thing Bush has done.
Beleive me, if Bush was 100% negative, there is no way in hell that he'd have ANY supporters, in Washington or out. You need to keep that in mind. Even if you hate the guy, he's done some good.

I know you can come up with at least 1 good thing matty. That's all I ask.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

...uh, no...I WAS bashing, though. :smashfrea

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

Does anyone else find it slightly ironic that SBF always talks about how much liberals / ACLU folks whine. Yet I see SBF whine about everything. Someone voices their opinion (a la my thoughts on Jerry Fawell) he cries that the post should be removed. Then when we have a good discussion which doesn't lean towards Bush (as a majority of the country doesn't) he gets upset and adds another controversial post. Take some of your own advice SBF, if you don't like the threads don't try to keep others from having a civil discussion.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;328709]
Plus, and I admit this is a personal gripe of mine, I can't stand how the guy can't even speak correctly, and he comes off so damn smug I just want to strangle him. And as far as charisma and that "it factor" when it comes to leadership, the guy is so completely lacking it's downright embarrassing.[/quote]


It sounds like you want someone who can play the role of President. We had him and all the Democrats said he was an idiot as well. It seems there is no pleasing you.

And "it factor"? Have you been reading the magazines at the Supermarket checkout or something?

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328728]This is why I thought this would be a bush bashing thread. If you really think he has done nothing right, you're not looking, or prefer just to focus on the negative. I have mentioned several things that he has done well, you could have regurgitated one of them.

PS- 9/11 everyone thought he handled very well, the war was a decision that Dems decided to go to, the economy is in GREAT shape (yes gas prices suck but not really his fault) and Katrina was the fault of thoughless morons that couldn't lift a finger to get themselves out of the way. I think he has given too much to rescue the idiots that didn't want to leave. All those morons on their roof bitching about being rescued should have been left. No one, and I mean no one can convince me that they didn't have time. I was sitting here watching it on tv, and as soon as it passed Florida the projected path was right into New Orleans. Even if you waited just to be sure, 2 days before hand they KNEW it was coming. If 48 hours isn't enough for you to realize that you live 10+ feet BELOW sea level and need to evacuate, then you're a dee, dee, dee and I'm not concerned about your safety. I'm not going to be concerned about you if you choose not to be concerned about youself.
Why would Bush send people in early when it was dangerous? Why put others in danger for the stupidities of others? And what the "armed bandits" making life difficult...shooting helpers? Bush did the right thing by waiting, and has done too much to date. I know that is not the politically correct thing to say, and it's not the dems view, but I am not going to apologize for it. Where was all that help when Charlie hit Punta Gorda / Fort Myers? Where was all that help when Andrew hit? The problem there is the people in New Orleans have a poor me attitude and since they are "poor" they feel they should be heard and lay there until someone helps. The people in Florida are deemed as "having money" so they take care of themselves. But fact is, Punta Gorda was full of trailer parks too. Just goes to show you that Florida is full of republicans (Lee county is 80% republicans) and New Orleans is full of Democrats. DO you think it is a coincidence? I don't. Republicans are taught to fend for themselves while Dems have been taught if they can't take care of themselves (or don't want to) then someone will do it for them. Of course that doesn't apply to EVERY person, but it applies as an in general statement.[/quote]

Why do you constantly say these people didn't want to leave New Orleans, and furthermore insist that they're stupid? I'm of the opinion, it was that same indifferent attitude that caused the entire response or lack thereof to be handled so poorly. Exactly what were they supposed to do, gas up the SUV, load it up with Avian, and check into the nearest motel? No, it wasn't that simple. We failed, plain and simple. And I've got news for you, that's not Left wing rhetoric attacking Bush - that's reality.

You defend Bush and his handling of Katrina, yet as we approach the two year anniversary of Katrina, many of the wards are still desolate, many of the residents are still displaced and New Orleans, by and large, remains a shell of its former self. You say that Bush should not put people in harms way, yet he didn't drag his feet awarding no-bid contracts to a handful of contractors, one of which is Halliburton; It's indefensible.

And what is this Republicans are taught this and Dems are taught that? Are you serious? I thought this was the United States of America. When I pleage alligence to the flag (before they took it out of school, that is) it was to the United States of America; Not to the GOP or to the Democrats. What, in the blue states they teach from different texbooks than the ones in the red states? In the blue states they have different family values than they do in the red states? We've been so conditioned to separate ourselves in red states and blue states that when someone says I'm a Republican or a Democrat we assume certain things about their political views, social values, and , perhaps, their work ethic. For instance, we assume Republicans are more conservative in their religous views than Democrats, yet it was Jimmy Carter who was the first to introduce the language of evangelical Christianity into modern national politics, but the Republicans were better positioned to mobilize the vote.

My point is, these generalizations (like your reference about Lee county v. New Orleans), if we're not careful, could border along the lines of racial attitudes and tendencies and further divide us. Don't you see this is the very mindset that is driving a wedge between us?

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328416]I'm going to take your word for that.

I'm honestly looking for some debate here as to what his legacy will be, and what has he actually done a good job with? I'm sure there's gotta be something.[/quote]

How about these:
1- he has helped to lower interest rates to the best in history.
2- He has helped the economy to one of the most successful in history.
3- He has had VERY good unemployment rates all the while lowering taxes for everyone including the poor.
4- He has hit his objectives and stuck to his word, something we commonly criticize presidents for. (read my lips, no new taxes comes to mind)
5- His unwaivering support for the protection of this country.
(Apparently he is a genius too cause he started this war all by himself, and he has fought this war all by himself. But that is sarcasm, not an actual good job)
6- He prevented Nuclear war between India and Pakistan.
7- Getting Lybia to give up its WMD programs and renounce terrorism.
8- Getting North Korea to shut down it's nuclear reactor.
9- Decapitating Al Quaeda's top leadership and preventing another massive attack on US soil.
10- Boosting Aid to Africa by three times the current aid...and vowed to double it again by 2010.

I'll start with those.[/quote]

What dimension are you living in?

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

All good points 12th man. But, I tend to give Bush a pass for Katrina if for no other reason than it is impossible to take a totally destroyed city and expect to have the recovery go smoothly.

And, Crazyhorse, I still don't understand how anyone can be honest with themselves and think Bush is a Godsend or pure evil. If you think he's a Godsend you probably should stop listening to Savage Nation, watching Fox News, and hanging out at Sunday School. If you think he's pure evil (which, apparently, you do), you should probably stop listening to Air America, watching Bill Maher, and hanging out with fellow liberal arts professors.

I think it's pretty amazing that conservatives adore a guy who clearly doesn't believe in fiscal responsibility (see our ridiculous budget), small government (see the Patriot Act), or a "conservative" foreign policy (see Iraq). I think it's equally amazing that liberals literally hate the guy for detaining people at Gitmo when Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and FDR imprisoned thousands of totally innocent civilians in prison camps, abusing the judicial system when FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court to get his unconstitutional legislation passed, and for keeping us involved in a civil war when those same people want us to get involved in Darfur and backed the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo.

There, I've managed to annoy both conservatives and liberals.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328724]Because only if you're guilty of something should you worry about it.
What the far left needs to realize that in order to be very protected there has to be some "rights" that need to be bent. It's give and take. No one is infridging on my constitutional rights, and I like it that way.[/quote]

Try reading something or watching a news show.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;328724]Because only if you're guilty of something should you worry about it.
What the far left needs to realize that in order to be very protected there has to be some "rights" that need to be bent. It's give and take. No one is infridging on my constitutional rights, and I like it that way.[/QUOTE]

The founding fathers believed that laws should protect [I]all of us[/I] from unwarranted government intrusion. To believe otherwise is very "un-conservative."

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;328774]All good points 12th man. But, I tend to give Bush a pass for Katrina if for no other reason than it is impossible to take a totally destroyed city and expect to have the recovery go smoothly.

And, Crazyhorse, I still don't understand how anyone can be honest with themselves and think Bush is a Godsend or pure evil. If you think he's a Godsend you probably should stop listening to Savage Nation, watching Fox News, and hanging out at Sunday School. If you think he's pure evil (which, apparently, you do), you should probably stop listening to Air America, watching Bill Maher, and hanging out with fellow liberal arts professors.

I think it's pretty amazing that conservatives adore a guy who clearly doesn't believe in fiscal responsibility (see our ridiculous budget), small government (see the Patriot Act), or a "conservative" foreign policy (see Iraq). I think it's equally amazing that liberals literally hate the guy for detaining people at Gitmo when Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and FDR imprisoned thousands of totally innocent civilians in prison camps, abusing the judicial system when FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court to get his unconstitutional legislation passed, and for keeping us involved in a civil war when those same people want us to get involved in Darfur and backed the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo.

There, I've managed to annoy both conservatives and liberals.[/quote]

It's not so much that I'm blaming him, but I don't see that same motivation, the same difience, if you will, in getting involved in New Orleans that I see with Iraq. I fully understand that the reality of war and the reality of re-building a city are two different issues, but I don't see the press conferences; I don't see or him publicly speak about progress being made there; I don't hear testimonies about people returning to a ward that has been rebuilt; I don't see him talk about new initiatives to get people mobilized and back home. You see what I'm saying? I really think his hands were tied on the levies. They didn't all of a sudden decide to erode and break under Bush, Jr., but it's coming up on two years now, and I'm starting to scratch my head as to where we are.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

All fair points 12th Man. I can't really argue with your last post.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=70Chip;328674]There are always votes that get tossed out because they are improperly cast. For Gore to say, "those were votes for me, and I'm the winner" is unreasonable. It may be that his voters were less competent and more likely to have cast an overvote or an undervote but there is no way to know that. The best indication of what Gore was up to is the fact that he tried to exclude those absentee votes from mostly military people. At that point it should have been obvious that he didn't really believe he had won, but was rather trying to steal the thing.

I think what confused some people was the fact that the exit polling incorrectly predicted Gore to be the winner. That caused TV to give him the state (at about 8:45 PM EST, before all the polls in the state were closed, amazingly) and when they realized their mistake and changed their prediction it seemed as though there were some shenanigans when it was really just TV and the people they hire to do those exit polls making a mistake. Exit polls have become worthless as have polls generally, IMO, because conservatives will often tell a pollster to go eff himself. With caller ID, I think the polls that we see touted on TV are extremely suspect. Nobody with a life is going to talk to them.[/quote]

Facts you don't seem to be aware of:

The Bufferfly ballot in Palm Beach cost Gore thousands of votes.

Florida declared 80,000 black voters inelgible by falsely declaring them to be felons. Florida imported a felon list from Texas and eliminated every black in Florida who had the same name as a Texas felon.

Gore got more votes for president in Florida than Bush did. This was by final count. I realize that you think otherwise with some reason, but you are wrong. The count you are familiar with was the result of votes cast in disputed districts. Long after the election, a complete vote count of all of Florida showed Gore to be the winner, inspite of the felon's list, and inspite of the Butterfly ballot.

Gore didn't just win Florida by actual count, he should have won Florida by tens of thousands of votes, not just a few thousand.

Note: Opinion is one thing; being wrong about the facts is another. Curiously, however, in regard to the state vote count, the correct numbers wouldn't have mattered anyway. Gore didn't ask the whole state to recount votes, so was technically not entitled to a statewide recount,

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=RobH4413;328725]I tend to agree with you here.[/quote]

Total nonsense.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328728]This is why I thought this would be a bush bashing thread. If you really think he has done nothing right, you're not looking, or prefer just to focus on the negative. I have mentioned several things that he has done well, you could have regurgitated one of them.

PS- 9/11 everyone thought he handled very well, the war was a decision that Dems decided to go to, the economy is in GREAT shape (yes gas prices suck but not really his fault) and Katrina was the fault of thoughless morons that couldn't lift a finger to get themselves out of the way. I think he has given too much to rescue the idiots that didn't want to leave. All those morons on their roof bitching about being rescued should have been left. No one, and I mean no one can convince me that they didn't have time. I was sitting here watching it on tv, and as soon as it passed Florida the projected path was right into New Orleans. Even if you waited just to be sure, 2 days before hand they KNEW it was coming. If 48 hours isn't enough for you to realize that you live 10+ feet BELOW sea level and need to evacuate, then you're a dee, dee, dee and I'm not concerned about your safety. I'm not going to be concerned about you if you choose not to be concerned about youself.
Why would Bush send people in early when it was dangerous? Why put others in danger for the stupidities of others? And what the "armed bandits" making life difficult...shooting helpers? Bush did the right thing by waiting, and has done too much to date. I know that is not the politically correct thing to say, and it's not the dems view, but I am not going to apologize for it. Where was all that help when Charlie hit Punta Gorda / Fort Myers? Where was all that help when Andrew hit? The problem there is the people in New Orleans have a poor me attitude and since they are "poor" they feel they should be heard and lay there until someone helps. The people in Florida are deemed as "having money" so they take care of themselves. But fact is, Punta Gorda was full of trailer parks too. Just goes to show you that Florida is full of republicans (Lee county is 80% republicans) and New Orleans is full of Democrats. DO you think it is a coincidence? I don't. Republicans are taught to fend for themselves while Dems have been taught if they can't take care of themselves (or don't want to) then someone will do it for them. Of course that doesn't apply to EVERY person, but it applies as an in general statement.[/quote]

Nobody was shooting helpers or raping anyone. All of that was disproved after the crisis. Nor were there "armed bandits." Do you ever read the news? By the way, the economy is not great. Right now, we are in absolutely horrendous debt that some economists think could eventually bankrupt us. Also, unemployment is down, but so is income for most American workers. Close to 40% of Americans working full time are failing to earn a living wage. Try a book or two on the economy.

Thanks

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;328779]What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.[/QUOTE]

You should read the briefs submitted by BOTH Gore and Bush in Bush v. Gore. I don't think you would have the same image of Gore's camp after doing so. Gore's camp didn't want a total recount, they only wanted recounts of those districts in which Gore had the most supporters. Gore's camp also wanted to exclude absentee ballots submitted by members of the military on technical grounds because they knew 90%+ of them would vote for Bush. Gore didn't win the election, it was a close one, but he lost. I tend to vote for Dems, but they lose points in my book when they harken back to an election that took place almost a decade ago.

And I still do not know how you lambast Bush for being so disrepectful of U.S. law and values, and still probably think FDR was a great president. He's done nothing that other Presidents haven't done. And not to be a d**k, but since you are telling others to read books, I would suggest you do the same and read up on guys like Jackson, Lincoln, and FDR.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328602]Well, I do understand where you're coming from, however, this has been something our great greandparents gave to us and we have yet to be truely hit with it. We always hear about the deficit, but no one knows how it affects us.[/quote]

Here's what happens: We go bankrupt when the interest we pay out becomes more than our income. Since we are bankrupt, we can no longer borrow to pay for government services, so lose millions of jobs, including firemen, cops, and soldiers. Since there is such chaos and so many are out of work, there is too little money to pay for the products produced by our companies. The companies then topple, sending millions more out of work. Depression (I sure am glad we've never been hit by one of those before). Gangs of violent hoboes roaming the land. Our country gets its butt kicked by Canada, which walls our poor (everyone) and starving, even though we are willing to work.
jsarno. Have you ever read anything?

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;328782]You should read the briefs submitted by BOTH Gore and Bush in Bush v. Gore. I don't think you would have the same image of Gore's camp after doing so. Gore's camp didn't want a total recount, they only wanted recounts of those districts in which Gore had the most supporters. Gore's camp also wanted to exclude absentee ballots submitted by members of the military on technical grounds because they knew 90%+ of them would vote for Bush. Gore didn't win the election, it was a close one, but he lost. I tend to vote for Dems, but they lose points in my book when they harken back to an election that took place almost a decade ago.

And I still do not know how you lambast Bush for being so disrepectful of U.S. law and values, and still probably think FDR was a great president. He's done nothing that other Presidents haven't done. And not to be a d**k, but since you are telling others to read books, I would suggest you do the same and read up on guys like Jackson, Lincoln, and FDR.[/quote]

I've read a great deal on the election. You are quite right that the Gore camp wanted recounts in specified districts. Unfortunately, your knowledge ends there. As I've said, a recount of only those districts later found Bush the winner of Florida. However, it is totally true and indisputable that a later recount of the whole state showed that Gore had more votes cast for him in Florida than Bush did, which vindicated the exit polls.

Let me be clear.

The Florida (whole state) recount did not and should not have made Gore the winner. He did not ask for a whole state recount; therefore, it was without value as a determinant of the winner.

We do not have a quarrel in regard to logic here. Bush was the legal winner by rule. At the same time, Gore got more votes in Florida than Bush did and the exit polls were vindicated. The problem is that you have no knowledge of the statewide recount. I do, because I was a Dem official and former Dem delegate at the time.

By the way, I was also one who wanted to exclude those military ballots. The ballots were late and improperly submitted, technically disqualifying them. It would have been much more graceful to accept them, however, because they came from the military. The reason we didn't was that we knew Florida Republicans had already thrown out 80,000 black voters for phony felon charges and was criminally proceeding to steal the election.

Other matters. Presidents whom I consider great lawbreakers and liars include FDR (civil liberties), Kennedy (imperialist, irresponsible), Johnson (pointless war and lying), Jefferson (imperialism, lying,), Nixon (corruption, mental illness). I have distaste for Jackson (cruelty), Wilson (racism), and Hoover (stupidity), as well as a dislike for others.

Generally speaking, I don't like presidents. I wouldn't go across the street to see one, even though I'm an avid politico. I don't even like Clinton. His pardoning his criminal friends ended whatever respect I had for him.

But this guy, Bush, is far worse than any of the above. He has all the bad traits of the others combined, all. He's as dumb as Hoover and cruel as Jackson, as racist as Wilson and as imperialistic as Jefferson, and so on. Plus, he developed a policy of torture, secret prisons, spied on Americans on a massive scale, has tried to destroy the balance of power, etc., etc.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=jsarno;328602]Well, I do understand where you're coming from, however, this has been something our great greandparents gave to us and we have yet to be truely hit with it. We always hear about the deficit, but no one knows how it affects us.[/quote]

Here's what happens: We go bankrupt when the interest we pay out becomes more than our income. Since we are bankrupt, we can no longer borrow to pay for government services, so lose millions of jobs, including firemen, cops, and soldiers. Since there is such chaos and so many are out of work, there is too little money to pay for the products produced by our companies. The companies then topple, sending millions more out of work. Depression (I sure am glad we've never been hit by one of those before). Gangs of violent hoboes roaming the land. Our country gets its butt kicked by Canada, which walls out our poor (everyone) and starving, even though we are willing to work.
jsarno. Have you ever read anything?

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[QUOTE=Crazyhorse1;328785]By the way, I was also one who wanted to exclude those military ballots. The ballots were late and improperly submitted, technically disqualifying them. It would have been much more graceful to accept them, however, because they came from the military. The reason we didn't was that we knew Florida Republicans had already thrown out 80,000 black voters for phony felon charges and was criminally proceeding to steal the election. [/QUOTE]

So, on the one hand the Gore camp said, "The butterfly ballot was confusing and we should look beyond the voter technical mistakes to try to discern whom they really wanted to vote for" and on the other hand said, "The military personnel technically submitted their votes late and we shouldn't count them even though we know whom they wanted to vote for." The hypocrisy is almost laughable. The notion that Bush stole the election and Gore didn't try to do the same thing makes me laugh.

Finally, I've never heard about 80,000 black voters being disenfranchised via some criminal scheme. The numbers I heard about were much lower and due to various computer glitches. Those allegations were investigated by the Civil Rights Commission and various other independent organizations and there was no solid evidence of a criminal conspiracy.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;328779]Facts you don't seem to be aware of:

The Bufferfly ballot in Palm Beach cost Gore thousands of votes.

Florida declared 80,000 black voters inelgible by falsely declaring them to be felons. Florida imported a felon list from Texas and eliminated every black in Florida who had the same name as a Texas felon.

Gore got more votes for president in Florida than Bush did. This was by final count. I realize that you think otherwise with some reason, but you are wrong. The count you are familiar with was the result of votes cast in disputed districts. Long after the election, a complete vote count of all of Florida showed Gore to be the winner, inspite of the felon's list, and inspite of the Butterfly ballot.

Gore didn't just win Florida by actual count, he should have won Florida by tens of thousands of votes, not just a few thousand.

[B]Note: Opinion is one thing; being wrong about the facts is another. Curiously, however, in regard to the state vote count, the correct numbers wouldn't have mattered anyway. Gore didn't ask the whole state to recount votes, so was technically not entitled to a statewide recount,[/B]

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.[/quote]

The butterfly ballot was designed by a Democratic election chairperson. Tough luck for Gore but there is no way of knowing who people meant to vote for, so no claims can be made as to how many votes Gore lost.

I find it improbable that there are 80,000 registered voters in Florida who had the same name as Texas felons and even more improbable that all those voters were black. Perhaps you could document.

I have never seen any recount that showed Gore to be the winner, though many have tried. Again, you might link to something. If what you say is true, then certainly some netroot blogger would be all over it.

I can't make heads ot tails of the section I highlighted. The reason Gore didn't ask for a statewide recount was because he wanted to do it in counties controlled by Democrats and where he was more likely to gain votes, Dade, Broward, etc. He eventually did call for a statewide recount after it became obvious that a selective recount strategy was making him look foolish.

Of course, if you could point to a reputable website that documents a rcount that shows Gore to be the winner then you might actually have a case. I've never seen one and you are the first person that I have heard claim to have knowledge of one. Let's see it.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;328776]The founding fathers believed that laws should protect [I]all of us[/I] from unwarranted government intrusion. To believe otherwise is very "un-conservative."[/quote]


Not to quibble, but the founders believed that only white, land owning males had rights. The sentiment behind what you say is nice, though. Let us try to make it so.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;328785] I do, because I was a Dem official and former Dem delegate at the time.

.[/quote]


I've never blocked any poster, but you are temting me. I think this is complete horseshit. Or Crazyhorseshit. Then again, it would take someone like you to try and disqualify military votes. Sorry mods, couldn't help it.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=70Chip;328790]Not to quibble, but the founders believed that only white, land owning males had rights. The sentiment behind what you say is nice, though. Let us try to make it so.[/quote]
so we can pick apart certain parts of the constitution, and use only the parts that we agree with? i really wish people would read the ENTIRE second amendment, before they declare their right to bear arms

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

[quote=70Chip;328756]It sounds like you want someone who can play the role of President. We had him and all the Democrats said he was an idiot as well. It seems there is no pleasing you.

And "it factor"? Have you been reading the magazines at the Supermarket checkout or something?[/quote]

He's just not a convincing leader in the least bit. It would be nice if he could at least speak intelligently. I wouldn't even be able to get behind him if he were a manager at McDonald's.

Re: The legacy of 'W'?
 

matty, you started out civil, but have got more and more intense with your posts. why? because some people see a spade, but yet call it a diamond?