Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

first off, the Dem's supported president Bush, when he made the decision to go to Iraq. and what i was talking about was the aftermath. the poor planning, no exit strategy, and the overall mis management of the war. I'm still not sure how Bush snookered everyone into invading Iraq, and forgetting about bin laden?

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=dmek25;333898]first off, the Dem's supported president Bush, when he made the decision to go to Iraq. and what i was talking about was the aftermath. the poor planning, no exit strategy, and the overall mis management of the war. I'm still not sure how Bush snookered everyone into invading Iraq, and forgetting about bin laden?[/quote]


So, what's your second point?

No one has forgotten Bin Laden. And the way Bush "snookered" them was to have the vote right before an election. He was counting on their well known cowardice and lack of conviction. Of course, they did not disappoint.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;333898]first off, the Dem's supported president Bush, when he made the decision to go to Iraq.[/quote]

Dems will sell you down the river if it means their own personal gain will be boosted.

[quote]I'm still not sure how Bush snookered everyone into invading Iraq, [/quote]
So by you thinking they were "snookered" you are saying 1- Bush is the smartest damn man on the planet as he can get all these seasoned politicians to see things his way (a relative nube). Or 2- Your democrats are a bunch of lemmings. (either way it doesn't bode well for the Dems if you really think they were snookered)

[quote]and forgetting about bin laden?[/QUOTE]

Are you serious? Who has forgotten about him? Didn't the country put the highest price on his head ever? Dead or alive? Has Bush not gone after Al Queda and gotten over 90% of the terrorists, a lot of which were known to be associated with Bin Laden? Have they not had full blown man hunts for him? I am sure there are still people on "secret missions" to try to find him. The fact that they can't leads me to beleive that he is already dead.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

Dem's are the only ones that will sell you down the river? all politicians, when put in a position for their own gains, will agree to anything. i think the biggest reason people agreed to invade Iraq was it would pretty much be political suicide if you disagree( at that time) and you say that bush has gotten over 90% of the terrorists, you have got to be joking? where in the world did you come up with that? for every terrorist that has been captured, or killed, there are 10 more waiting in the wings.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;333864]Beems,

I too was against the war [I]starting[/I], but that has nothing to do with what we need to do from here. I know you will probably reply with "well they were so wrong about the war, why should I trust them now?" To that I would reply (a) Petraeus is not "they" and (b) I don't quite follow the logic "They were wrong then, so they must always be wrong."[/QUOTE]

But it's not just the war. It's the Katrina disaster, appointing incompetents like Alberto Gonzales and Mike Brown ... Trying to get Bush's own personal lap dog, Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court ... "Looking into Vladimir Putin's soul" ... giving control of the ports of our country to an Arab state ... signing the most agregious attack on the First Amendment by supporting Campaign Finance Reform ... steadfastly refusing to secure the borders at the same time they keep telling us that we are still a target ... appointing what turned out to be a corrupt, mafia-influenced thug to head the Department of Homeland Security ... trying to deny rights of Habeas Corpus to American citizens ... bankrupting Medicare by adding prescription drug coverage to an already over-burdened budget, grossly miscalculating its costs (including the costs of the war) ... giving us disasters like No Child Left Behind, the Patriot Act, and Faith-Based Initiatives ... a Vice-President trying to convince us that the Office of the Vice President [I]isn't[/I] a part of the Executive Branch ... "Bring 'em on" ...

Past performance is the best indicator of future performance. So you'll have to forgive me if I have trouble believing anything else this inept bunch of buffoons tries to tell us about anything.

Oh, and 70chip, you and I come from basically the same political philosophy. You HAVE to believe that Limbaugh, Hannity, and all the conservative pundits would be calling for the heads of Clinton, Kerry or Gore if they'd have given us the things I've listed here. You're a conservative, right? Can you honestly stand there with a straight face and defend this administration? Especially when they've gone out of their way to demonstrate how unconservative they really are?

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[YT]xyUX6wV1lBQ[/YT]

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

I've always thought that Patton speech was illuminating in the context of this war. Good post.

And Beem, I still believe that removing Sadam was the right thing to do. Mike Brown was perfectly competent to handle the hurricanes that ravaged Florida in 2004. New Orleans was, is, and probably always will be a hopeless cesspool of corruption and vice. If I may quote the great Kid Rock, "People get what they deserve."

I defend this administration because I don't believe in making the perfect the enemy of the good. The Democrats are going to take over and run thing for good long while. They just made a transgendered something or other the police chief of San Fransisco. These are their values. This is what matters to them. No conservative in his right mind should acquiesce to the acendency of such a worldview so that his ideological purity can be maintained. Politics is about compromise. I accept Bush and all his failings becauseI honestly believe the alternative would have been and will be catastrophic.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

politics is about compromise? i agree, but explain to me when this administration has shown that quality

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=dmek25;333982]politics is about compromise? i agree, but explain to me when this administration has shown that quality[/quote]

They passed Ted Kennedy's education bill. They were going to make 12 million Hispanics into voters overnight. Huge expansion of Medicare. Abortion still legal. Prayer in public still illegal. And, worst of all, they have not formed the death squads I wanted. This President has been much more of a centrist than Reagan was. This is why so many conservatives feel no loyalty to him.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;333970]I've always thought that Patton speech was illuminating in the context of this war. Good post.

And Beem, I still believe that removing Sadam was the right thing to do. Mike Brown was perfectly competent to handle the hurricanes that ravaged Florida in 2004. New Orleans was, is, and probably always will be a hopeless cesspool of corruption and vice. If I may quote the great Kid Rock, "People get what they deserve."

I defend this administration because I don't believe in making the perfect the enemy of the good. The Democrats are going to take over and run thing for good long while. They just made a transgendered something or other the police chief of San Fransisco. These are their values. This is what matters to them. No conservative in his right mind should acquiesce to the acendency of such a worldview so that his ideological purity can be maintained. Politics is about compromise. I accept Bush and all his failings becauseI honestly believe the alternative would have been and will be catastrophic.[/QUOTE]

At first, I was optimistic when the Republicans were in control of everything. Finally, I thought, for the first time ever, we get a chance to see what conservatism can do for the country with a majority in all three branches of government, slim as it might be. Six or seven years later, the best we have to show for it are tax cuts (which will not be made permanent) and Roberts and Alito. That's it. Contrast that record with what might have been done if the Democrats had complete control. Scary.

As I look back, it actually might have been better if Kerry had won in '04, or even Al Gore in 2000. At least there would have been a determined group of Republicans in Congress standing guard to check whatever harmful socialist policies Kerry or Gore would have given us. Instead, they went along with the socialist-lite policies of Bush. There was a dreadful "team" mentality which permeated government, and Republicans cast aside their conservative principles because the man in the executive branch shared the same letter "R" after his name that they did. More sickening was the blind loyalty shown by guys like Limbaugh, Hannity, Fred Barnes and other supposedly conservative icons despite the Rockafeller-Republican results Bush and his band of buffoons were able to produce.

Then there's the war. You and I will part ways with this one. I've always been of the non-interventionist nature. The same principle of getting the government out of the lives of the American people should be applied to the internal affairs of other nations. For some reason, today's 'conservatives' have lost that outlook. Was Saddam a horrible person? Yes. But so what? When did it become the duty of American troops to oust dictators of other nations especially when our national interests weren't close to being harmed? Just as you believe this government shouldn't enable the poor by shoveling money in their face which only further fosters dependency, the same should be held for the oppressed people caught in despotic regimes across the globe. Those people are responsible for themselves. And not you nor I or any other American has an obligation or a responsibility for them.

I've never understood why that conservative tradition doesn't hold in both domestic and foreign policies.

[I]"No conservative in his right mind should acquiesce to the acendency of such a worldview so that his ideological purity can be maintained. Politics is about compromise."[/I]

What Bush has done isn't the same as compromising -- it has been outright major steps backward into the pit of socialism. No conservative in his right mind to acquiesce to this brand of "compassionate conservatism". And it's not idealogical purity we're talking about here. Why is it that when one complains that his principles aren't even being strived for, someone else chastises that person for expecting ideological purity? We're not even CLOSE to that -- in fact, we're moving in the opposite direction.

Wow. I've gone on and on here. Looks like you've struck a nerve!

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

beems, great post, and i agree. and i laugh about bush and the illegals. he doesn't say a peep about any of this until 6 years into his presidency. he sees his popularity numbers dip into all time lows, and figures he had better do something. those illegals should have to go thru the same process that my great grandfather, and yours, had to. i don't understand the thinking of handing them a free pass?

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

Beem, sorry you were disappointed with what Republican dominance looked like. This is what Democratic dominance looks like:

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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;333928]Dem's are the only ones that will sell you down the river? all politicians, when put in a position for their own gains, will agree to anything. i think the biggest reason people agreed to invade Iraq was it would pretty much be political suicide if you disagree( at that time) and you say that bush has gotten over 90% of the terrorists, you have got to be joking? where in the world did you come up with that? for every terrorist that has been captured, or killed, there are 10 more waiting in the wings.[/QUOTE]

My bad, I meant 90% of the most wanted terrorists.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;333928]Dem's are the only ones that will sell you down the river? all politicians, when put in a position for their own gains, will agree to anything. i think the biggest reason people agreed to invade Iraq was it would pretty much be political suicide if you disagree( at that time) and you say that bush has gotten over 90% of the terrorists, you have got to be joking? where in the world did you come up with that? for every terrorist that has been captured, or killed, there are 10 more waiting in the wings.[/QUOTE]

So if there are 10 more waiting in the wings, don't you think we should try to stop them somehow?

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;334011]those illegals should have to go thru the same process that my great grandfather, and yours, had to. i don't understand the thinking of handing them a free pass?[/QUOTE]

Something about that statement doesn't seem right. My forefathers endured harship, so I want to see others have to as well.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=jsarno;334073]So if there are 10 more waiting in the wings, don't you think we should try to stop them somehow?[/quote]
so the united states, fighting in Iraq, is stopping all terrorists? there will always be terrorism in this world we live in

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

70chip, what do you expect from San Fransisco?

Seriously though, you can't take this example and make representative of all democrats, or their collective 'values' -- anymore than Mark Foley or Ted Haggard are indicative of republican 'values'.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;334214]70chip, what do you expect from San Fransisco?

Seriously though, you can't take this example and make representative of all democrats, or their collective 'values' -- anymore than Mark Foley or Ted Haggard are indicative of republican 'values'.[/QUOTE]

I gotta agree with Beem there. It is this dividing up and villifying the other "side" that has our system broken. Yeah there are cooky Dems. And there are nutso Reps too. Crazy doesn't discriminate based on party affiliation. Both parties have strong elements who have totally thrown true values out, in terms of social values and political values. That's why there isn't a one of them that you can trust right now.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;334177]so the united states, fighting in Iraq, is stopping all terrorists? there will always be terrorism in this world we live in[/QUOTE]

DId i say that they were fighting ALL terrorists by being in Iraq?
If we ignored Hitler, we would be in trouble right now (probably speaking german), if we ignore the terrorists, they will kill us.
To not fight them would be a mistake.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

i didn't say don't fight them. what i said is being in Iraq serves absolutely no purpose. if you think because of us fighting in Iraq, the terrorists will not strike in the United States, you are just kidding yourself. the more i think about this administrations plan of attack, the more i think that they really didn't have one

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=Beemnseven;334214]70chip, what do you expect from San Fransisco?

Seriously though, you can't take this example and make representative of all democrats, or their collective 'values' -- anymore than Mark Foley or Ted Haggard are indicative of republican 'values'.[/quote]


The reason San Fransisco is like that is because it's controlled by Liberal Democrats. If and when they achieve a similar stranglehold on national government, they will implement the same agenda. They will destroy this country.

BTW, a Democratic version of Mark Foley would be a congressman who was secretly being faithful to his wife.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=70Chip;334495]The reason San Fransisco is like that is because it's controlled by Liberal Democrats. If and when they achieve a similar stranglehold on national government, they will implement the same agenda. They will destroy this country.

BTW, a Democratic version of Mark Foley would be a congressman who was secretly being faithful to his wife.[/quote]

I'm curious, 70...how do you define Liberal?

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=12thMan;334509]I'm curious, 70...how do you define Liberal?[/quote]

In the modern sense of the word. Perhaps radical and radicalism would be a better term. IMO, the modern right has as much claim to the word liberal as the modern left does, but I use the term as it has been defined since around the 1970s. I mean the Radical Left. Generally they see capitalism as inherently unfair and opressive. They view religion as reactionary and repressive. They view the state and state power as a means and not an end (so long as they run it). Their worldview is largely informed by Marx and his approach to history (dialectical materialism) even if they don't realize it. In addition, any number of liberation ideologies have attached themselves to the modern left, taking in the areas of human sexuality, race relations, and the sovreignty of individual nation states.
I think the glue that holds these disparate phenomenon together, though, is their rejection of a compassionate, personal God. This is their most common refrain.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=dmek25;334443]i didn't say don't fight them. what i said is being in Iraq serves absolutely no purpose. if you think because of us fighting in Iraq, the terrorists will not strike in the United States, you are just kidding yourself. the more i think about this administrations plan of attack, the more i think that they really didn't have one[/quote]
Well we haven't had an attack in this country sense 9/11 so the administration gets the credit. Its not like they have not tried to attack us because we have broken up several terr. plots over the past couple of years. We all know terrorist will strike again and they only have to get it right once to succeed. You also cannot say that the war has served no purpose because then you must have the ability to see into history.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;334746]Well we haven't had an attack in this country sense 9/11 so the administration gets the credit. Its not like they have not tried to attack us because we have broken up several terr. plots over the past couple of years. We all know terrorist will strike again and they only have to get it right once to succeed. You also cannot say that the war has served no purpose because then you must have the ability to see into history.[/QUOTE]

It will be interesting to see what happens when the administration does change hands. Particularly if a Democrat wins, Will terrorists see it as an opportunity to test the new President. Similar to what happened to Gordon Brown in Great Britain.

I shouldn't say interesting, I should say somewhat frightening. And it's not limited to just Democrats of course.

Let's just say I think late January/early February 2009 might be a good time to visit Vancouver.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=firstdown;334746]Well we haven't had an attack in this country sense 9/11 so [B]the administration gets the credit.[/B] Its not like they have not tried to attack us because we have broken up several terr. plots over the past couple of years. We all know terrorist will strike again and they only have to get it right once to succeed. You also cannot say that the war has served no purpose because then you must have the ability to see into history.[/quote]
using this school of thought, then this administration is totally at fault for 9-11. bush and company tend to keep us living in fear. so how do i know what they have broken up? could all be a buch of crap, made up by the republicans, to have people believe that they are doing a masterful job at keeping our country secure. not that anyone in this administration has ever lied to us before:(

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;334754]using this school of thought, then this administration is totally at fault for 9-11. bush and company tend to keep us living in fear. so how do i know what they have broken up? could all be a buch of crap, made up by the republicans, to have people believe that they are doing a masterful job at keeping our country secure. not that anyone in this administration has ever lied to us before:([/QUOTE]

Dmek,

I definately agree that the Bush administration has used the war on terrorism as a political tool. The war on terrorism is, however, quite real. Al Qaeda, the Taliban, AQI, etc. truly are evil. There are a lot of radical Islamic terrorist groups who would love to see Americans killed in droves. I do not know if you meant to say that none of the foregoing is true.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=70Chip;334583]In the modern sense of the word. Perhaps radical and radicalism would be a better term. IMO, the modern right has as much claim to the word liberal as the modern left does, but I use the term as it has been defined since around the 1970s. I mean the Radical Left. Generally they see capitalism as inherently unfair and opressive. They view religion as reactionary and repressive. They view the state and state power as a means and not an end (so long as they run it). Their worldview is largely informed by Marx and his approach to history (dialectical materialism) even if they don't realize it. In addition, any number of liberation ideologies have attached themselves to the modern left, taking in the areas of human sexuality, race relations, and the sovreignty of individual nation states.
I think the glue that holds these disparate phenomenon together, though, is their rejection of a compassionate, personal God. This is their most common refrain.[/quote]


I'm glad you cleared that up, because if you talk face to face with any or at least most of the Democratic candiates in the race right now, they'll tell you that's flat out not what they stand for. While I don't disagree with "that" definition, per se, because I think you're talking about how the Dems in general embrace this philosphy, or at least have in the past, I will tell you it's become more of a label which has been unduly, in some circumstances, attached to anyone non-Republican. I really can't speak to whether or not the Dems are largely informed by Marx, but I do think it's foolish to assume that there aren't Replucicans that don't embrace his philosphy as well.

The term liberal has become a very "toxic" word, and it's become more trendy to say than actually informing us of one's views of the world and how they form and shape policy. I chuckle when I hear people say, "oh he's liberal or they're liberal because"...or "she's conservative because of this or that".

Case in point, I watched John McCain after the Dems took over the House and Senate during the mid-terms, say out of his own mouth that "America is still a Conservative nation". It was sort of one of these things said in passing that you usually don't pay much attention to, but it just kept bugging me and I knew in my gut if he ever launched his bid for the Presidency, which he later did, he would never win the nomination. He has proceeded to alienate his party almost to the point of having to shut down his entire operation.

Nothing against McCain personally or as a candidate, it's just that he among others, have bought into this notion of what a conservative looks like and believes as opposed to a liberal, and because he's so inflexible on that mindset, he's spiralling in the polls.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;334758]Dmek,

I definately agree that the Bush administration has used the war on terrorism as a political tool. The war on terrorism is, however, quite real. Al Qaeda, the Taliban, AQI, etc. truly are evil. There are a lot of radical Islamic terrorist groups who would love to see Americans killed in droves. I do not know if you meant to say that none of the foregoing is true.[/quote]
i know the threat of terrorism is real. i know that there are tons of people of all religions that would like nothing better to see Americans killed/ and or tortured. but to say that this administration has stopped countless attacks, has little credibility to me. these groups have been around long before 9/11, but president bush would have you believe this is all something new. he basically stirred up a hornets nest by invading Iraq, when we really had no business doing so

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

In all actuality Terrorism became the threat as we know it today just after the end of the cold war. Much of it can be attributed to the Regan administration. we were laxidazily supporting both Palestinians and Israelis in the Middle East. All we wantd to do was promote peace in the region. Peace talks between the two peoples were never successfull. While the US tried to stay nuetral and promote peace the majority of its citizens were either of Jewish or Christian background. The Arab Nation believed that we were more supportive of the Israelis and made us an enemy. They started the attacks, and not a single thing was done about it until the Lil' Bush administration.

You say that our presence in Iraq is not necessary and there is no real proof of progress. Well Sir, I would have to disagree. Had we not invaded Iraq do you think that we would have detered the attacks that we already have? Furthermore, do you believe that the attacks would have stopped if we just stayed in Afghanistan after 911. The terrorists had to flee Afghanistan and set up terror cells somewhere. Where would they be treated more at home than under the regime of Sadam Huessein? While I understand that Iraq is not the only place that they have relocated and occupied, why not knock out 2 birds with one stone? Iraqi's were not free and lived in terror themselves under the rule of a dictator that we overthrew.

In this process we have destroyed much, and the only civilized thing left to do is ensure that their nation is rebuilt and mostly recovered from our occupation, which was necessary. Otherwise we would be leaving them at the mercy of the next tyrant to gain power.

Either way, which ever approach that we take, Terrorism isn't going to stop. For years I always asked why I was deployed from my home and my family so much. About 2 years ago it all made since. By the US keeping US servicemembers abroad in other countries, they are helping to keep the enemy off of our backs, out of our back yards and away from our gates.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=dmek25;334789]i know the threat of terrorism is real. i know that there are tons of people of all religions that would like nothing better to see Americans killed/ and or tortured. but to say that this administration has stopped countless attacks, has little credibility to me. these groups have been around long before 9/11, but president bush would have you believe this is all something new. he basically stirred up a hornets nest by invading Iraq, when we really had no business doing so[/quote]
So when he does something wrong you bash him and when they do get something right you say you don't know if its true or if he desirves the credit. You want it both ways so to never give them any credit.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

I'm willing to give him the credit, if he is willing to accept the blame? no one in this administration has ever admitted to being wrong about anything. and angryssg, i think the better plan of attack would have been to attack Afghanistan with both barrels, until bin laden was either captured or killed. that way we would be showing that the united states means business. if you attack us, we will hunt you down, and get you. to win in iraq, you will have to change an entire civilizations thought process. somehow i dont think that will happen

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=dmek25;334823]I'm willing to give him the credit, if he is willing to accept the blame? no one in this administration has ever admitted to being wrong about anything. and angryssg, i think the better plan of attack would have been to attack Afghanistan with both barrels, until bin laden was either captured or killed. that way we would be showing that the united states means business. if you attack us, we will hunt you down, and get you. to win in iraq, you will have to change an entire civilizations thought process. somehow i dont think that will happen[/quote]
Ok, I'm tired of this subject. We can go back and forth and what is said today is what was said back in other threads and post with maybe just a different twist. So are you planing on going to any of the games this year?

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

if warpath comes thru, ill be at the lions game. and i am going to Tampa to see the skins. how about you? and thanks for the civil discussion

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;334794]In all actuality Terrorism became the threat as we know it today just after the end of the cold war. Much of it can be attributed to the Regan administration. we were laxidazily supporting both Palestinians and Israelis in the Middle East. All we wantd to do was promote peace in the region. Peace talks between the two peoples were never successfull. While the US tried to stay nuetral and promote peace the majority of its citizens were either of Jewish or Christian background. The Arab Nation believed that we were more supportive of the Israelis and made us an enemy. They started the attacks, and not a single thing was done about it until the Lil' Bush administration.[/QUOTE]

See, I believe that when the United States tries to "promote peace" in a region of the world that has never known it, all you do is wind up pissing somebody off. You're right that the Arab world saw us as favoring Israel. That's one of the primary reasons for anti-American sentiment in the Muslim world. Ultimately, I just think it proves that the best thing for us to do is to stay out of it. Just like you wouldn't leave your home today for a flight out to south-central Los Angeles looking to pick sides in whichever gang war you could find.

Keep in mind though -- Lil' Bush had no plans for terrorism until after the 9/11 attacks.

[QUOTE=angryssg]You say that our presence in Iraq is not necessary and there is no real proof of progress. Well Sir, I would have to disagree. [B]Had we not invaded Iraq do you think that we would have detered the attacks that we already have?[/B] Furthermore, do you believe that the attacks would have stopped if we just stayed in Afghanistan after 911. The terrorists had to flee Afghanistan and set up terror cells somewhere. Where would they be treated more at home than under the regime of Sadam Huessein? While I understand that Iraq is not the only place that they have relocated and occupied, why not knock out 2 birds with one stone? Iraqi's were not free and lived in terror themselves under the rule of a dictator that we overthrew.[/QUOTE]

The one thing 9/11 proved is that there really isn't any way to prevent a small group of determined religious fanatics from doing a whole lot of damage and killing lots of innocent civilians. The hijackers were able to carry out their plan without our being in Iraq. They conceived, planned, financed, trained, and succeeded in the United States -- in places like Minnesota and Virginia Beach -- [I]right under our noses[/I]. No military occupation anywhere in the world will stop 6 or 7 guys from dropping off a suitcase bomb in a shopping mall.

The United States military is currently stationed in 130 countries all over the world. Our presence in all of these places didn't deter the 9/11 attacks. Our imperialistic attitude will only serve to foster more hatred toward us.

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;334823]I'm willing to give him the credit, if he is willing to accept the blame? no one in this administration has ever admitted to being wrong about anything.[/QUOTE]

[url=http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/07/31/cheney_i_was_wrong_about_insurgency/2492/]United Press International - NewsTrack - Top News - Cheney: 'I was wrong about insurgency'[/url]

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;334924][url=http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/07/31/cheney_i_was_wrong_about_insurgency/2492/]United Press International - NewsTrack - Top News - Cheney: 'I was wrong about insurgency'[/url][/QUOTE]

lol...good post

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

i think bob dole has the best plan

Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;334924][URL="http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/07/31/cheney_i_was_wrong_about_insurgency/2492/"]United Press International - NewsTrack - Top News - Cheney: 'I was wrong about insurgency'[/URL][/quote]
thanks. it only took 6+ years to get it. but it is a start. the americaqn people need to hear this kind of thing