Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;355090]You're analyzing it backwards. I loosely agree with what you are saying, but the idea is not to take all the playoff loses and try to blame McNabb for them. It's to try to find out who was most responsible for those losses.

My answer: The Bucs, Panthers, and Patriots. McNabb didn't beat those teams because his team was worse than those teams. His numbers in those games reflect the dominances of those defenses. Course that wasn't just McNabb's line against them. That was every QB they played in those seasons.[/QUOTE]

Well, we obviously agree on many points, but I feel the need to say this, big players come up big in big games. McNabb get's lost along the way. The man is an OUTSTANDING Qb in the regular season, but when he's cold (for whatever reason) then the Eagles lose.
He needs to be good enough to overcome a good D, otherwise they lose the game.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;355100]The reason why more white people are not in basketball is because they are not the best players in that sport. Plain and simple.[/QUOTE]

LOL...that is a racist comment, and blatently untrue.
I have known SEVERAL GREAT white players...shoot lights out...much better than their black counterparts, but because they were not black, they didn't start...or even make the team in some cases.

My buddy, Ken Jones, lived in Fort Myers. He was the #1 player in the state of Florida back in the early 90's in High School. No college team offered him a scholarship.
Why is it OK to accept racism in certain cases, but not others?

This is off the point, and I apologize for it. But what I mentioned is real, what McNabb mentions is imagined. (at least now it is imagined...I agree that it took a lot to get the black QB in the game...Moon and Williams were trailblazers.)

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=Paintrain;354741]
For every Shaun King (who took his team to the NFC Championship game & was in the league less than 5 years) there are 2-3 Todd Collins, players who were never starters yet carved out a long career as a backup.. Aaron Brooks holds a lot of Saints passing records (over Archie Manning), Jackson was a second round pick and is still young, Peete was a high draft pick who started for most of his career, [B]Blake & Wright are somewhat exceptions to the rule.. [/B][/quote]

I don't think it matters if you're Blake or Wright...:D

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[quote]For every Shaun King (who took his team to the NFC Championship game & was in the league less than 5 years) there are 2-3 Todd Collins[/quote]

Not every player makes a good back up. King is a perfect example. King didn't deserve to be the starter, but somehow he was thrusted in that position and didn't perform well when he got there.
The difference between a king or a collins, is collins is willing to sit on the bench and do whatever it takes to coach and help the team...King sat on the bench and bitched that he was on the bench.
Those are massive differences if you ask me, yet both have similar talent.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;355119]I don't think it matters if you're Blake or Wright...:D[/QUOTE]

Best post of the entire thread. Instant Warpath Classic

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=jsarno;355117]LOL...that is a racist comment, and blatently untrue.
I have known SEVERAL GREAT white players...shoot lights out...much better than their black counterparts, but because they were not black, they didn't start...or even make the team in some cases.

My buddy, Ken Jones, lived in Fort Myers. He was the #1 player in the state of Florida back in the early 90's in High School. No college team offered him a scholarship.
Why is it OK to accept racism in certain cases, but not others?

This is off the point, and I apologize for it. But what I mentioned is real, what McNabb mentions is imagined. (at least now it is imagined...I agree that it took a lot to get the black QB in the game...Moon and Williams were trailblazers.)[/quote]

Well when you have your own NBA or college basketball team you can scout and pick up all these alleged white phenoms that are being over looked by the experts.....Then you'll show them!!!!

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[quote=JWsleep;355111]Here's what I'm pissed about--why no black kickers!

J/K, obviously. I agree that there is inherent racism throughout the US, though much of it below the surface. But it's getting better. These things take time.

As for Donovan's stats, etc.--my guess is that many teams in many cities would be happy to get McNabb even now, much less a few years ago. He's kicked our asses enough times for me to appreciate that he's a high quality NFL QB. He hasn't won a SB, so that's gonna dog him for his career unless he manages to do so.

Race is a tough thing, especially here in the US with our long history of race problems. So I think he was correct in his comment. But he no doubt didn't help his standing by making the comment, especially given the timing. But I respect McNabb, and so I give him the benefit of the doubt here. ANY comment about race is going to cause a firestorm. [B]But not speaking up about it is probably worse--getting these things out in the open and debated will help, even if it takes a long time[/B].[/quote]

Yeah I agree racial issues need to be discussed to try and bridge the gap, but as hooskins said earlier, he didnt express himself articulately, he was concerned with only his own hardships, and wasnt able to backup his stance when pressed on it...I would have expected him to show more maturity then that. There are racial issues that are of much greater concern then a handful of ignorant people criticizing McNabb, or any black qb, and I wish he could have realized that, even after the fact and expressed that his hardships are nothing compared to say the situation in Jena.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

Michael Wilbon's colum in todays WashPost raised some interesting concepts relevant to McNabb's coments. He made reference to many of the young QB's, espically Vince Young who are basically too young to fully understand the true plight of the Black QB in pro football. Further, many of the people who write stories and ask questions that stir controversy about the matter are also much too young to really know about those who actually paved the way for guys like Young, Campbell, Vick and other young african american QB's. The young one's today have prospered as a result of the trailblazers of yesteryear who paved the way for them to be where they are today.

When the question was put to Jason Campbell about McNabb's remarks, his answer was measured, and he chose his words carefully in crafting a response.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[QUOTE=WillH;355129]Yeah I agree racial issues need to be discussed to try and bridge the gap, but as hooskins said earlier, he didnt express himself articulately, he was concerned with only his own hardships, and wasnt able to backup his stance when pressed on it...I would have expected him to show more maturity then that. [b]There are racial issues that are of much greater concern then a handful of ignorant people criticizing McNabb, or any black qb,[/b] and I wish he could have realized that, even after the fact and expressed that his hardships are nothing compared to say the situation in Jena.[/QUOTE]

Like people who think there are no white people that can play basketball. :rolleyes:

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

I believe McNabb is right in his observation, but we have been thru this before with Rush Limbaugh. Everyone knows that black people undergo scrutiny whether they like it or not, but he continues to utter that sentiment.

So, in my opinion, he feels he must say it over again so that people are reminded that it still exists, or he does it because its a shield.

We wont know unless we ask him

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan;355134]

When the question was put to Jason Campbell about McNabb's remarks, his answer was measured, and he chose his words carefully in crafting a response.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. I was very impressed with Campbell's demeanor and the words he chose. He has very good poise on and off the field.

I knew the kid had talent, but he is impressing me double fold seemingly every week. We finally have the QB we've been looking for!

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

oops, I forgot a white qb that is criticized worse than McNabb...Rex Grossman.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;355117]LOL...that is a racist comment, and blatently untrue.
I have known SEVERAL GREAT white players...shoot lights out...much better than their black counterparts, but because they were not black, they didn't start...or even make the team in some cases.

My buddy, Ken Jones, lived in Fort Myers. He was the #1 player in the state of Florida back in the early 90's in High School. No college team offered him a scholarship.
Why is it OK to accept racism in certain cases, but not others?

This is off the point, and I apologize for it. But what I mentioned is real, what McNabb mentions is imagined. (at least now it is imagined...I agree that it took a lot to get the black QB in the game...Moon and Williams were trailblazers.)[/QUOTE]

So the prejudice against black QBs is a fiction, but the prejudice against white BBllers is real?

I happen to think that both prejudices are real. I don't know how pervasive such thoughts are, especially at the pro level, but I do believe they exist.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=jsarno;355117]LOL...that is a racist comment, and blatently untrue.
I have known SEVERAL GREAT white players...shoot lights out...much better than their black counterparts, but because they were not black, they didn't start...or even make the team in some cases.

My buddy, Ken Jones, lived in Fort Myers. He was the #1 player in the state of Florida back in the early 90's in High School. No college team offered him a scholarship.
Why is it OK to accept racism in certain cases, but not others?

This is off the point, and I apologize for it. But what I mentioned is real, what McNabb mentions is imagined. (at least now it is imagined...I agree that it took a lot to get the black QB in the game...Moon and Williams were trailblazers.)[/quote]

I hope you're not serious. So you think the NBA and NFL teams are discriminating against white players? Black is the new white? What you're implying is as absurd as McNabb's comments. It's unfortunate that you both believe in the legitimacy of what you believe to be true.

I'm afraid your buddy had deficiencies that perhaps you and the people around him didn't see or were not willing to see. There are so many factor in assessing a player it's not even funny. LaVar is a perfect example.

I'll reiterate what I've said on this top in the past...In sports it's all about winning and no team, no f'ing team, is willing to sacrifice W's for some petty racist shit. Period!

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=kjahorski;354831]I hope the Eagles never win a SB......no matter who their QB is....black, white, asian, Indian, Thai, whatever......Donovan's rant is useless....just go out and play....if you are afraid of or have to cry about criticism, then get a new job....[/QUOTE]

Well said. Except for Indians. I mean, come on...

[/sarcasm]

(That one's for you, Smoot!)

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=saden1;355178]I hope you're not serious. So you think the NBA and NFL teams are discriminating against white players? Black is the new white? What you're implying is as absurd as McNabb's comments. It's unfortunate that you both believe in the legitimacy of what you believe to be true. [/quote]
When did I say that NFL teams are discriminating against white people? I didn't say that, nor did I insinuate that. Curious as to how you even came to that conclusion.

[quote]I'm afraid your buddy had deficiencies that perhaps you and the people around him didn't see or were not willing to see. There are so many factor in assessing a player it's not even funny. LaVar is a perfect example. [/quote]
Well, I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong. He was ranked #1 in the STATE. Pretty darn convincing if you ask me. Maybe I wasn't specific enough cause you used Lavar as an example, but he was ranked #1 in the state as a basketball player. For as much as people would like to think that racism doesn't exist in basketball, it's by far the most racist sport in the world. Look at the guy here that said that black basketball players are just better than white players...and oddly enough no one cared to say anything about it. It's simply not true. White people don't get the opportunity that black people do to play basketball, and it starts in high school. You can't tell me that there aren't white people out there that can play. How did the 86 celtics win it all with Bird, McHale, Ainge, and Walton (all white)?


[quote]I'll reiterate what I've said on this top in the past...In sports it's all about winning and no team, no f'ing team, is willing to sacrifice W's for some petty racist shit. Period![/QUOTE]

I 100% agree with you.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;355172]So the prejudice against black QBs is a fiction, but the prejudice against white BBllers is real?[/quote]

Sort of. I used to be true, but it is no longer. However, the prejudice against a SCRAMBLING qb is still real. It has nothing to do with race, but everyone sees that a true scrambling QB has never won the super bowl. Problem is, every scrambling Qb happens to be black. Teams feel pocket passers = super bowls. I tend to agree. A black pocket passer is hard to find.
ps- Campbell is a pocket passer.

[quote]I happen to think that both prejudices are real. I don't know how pervasive such thoughts are, especially at the pro level, but I do believe they exist.[/QUOTE]

Even Young and Campbell made comments that they are not. It used to be there, but it is no longer there. It's all about who the teams feel will win. If they felt that Warren Moon could come out of retirement to win a super bowl, they'd pay him to do it. It's that simple.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=jsarno;355183]When did I say that NFL teams are discriminating against white people? I didn't say that, nor did I insinuate that. Curious as to how you even came to that conclusion.


Well, I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong. He was ranked #1 in the STATE. Pretty darn convincing if you ask me. Maybe I wasn't specific enough cause you used Lavar as an example, but he was ranked #1 in the state as a basketball player. For as much as people would like to think that racism doesn't exist in basketball, it's by far the most racist sport in the world.[B] Look at the guy here that said that black basketball players are just better than white players...and oddly enough no one cared to say anything about it.[/B] It's simply not true. White people don't get the opportunity that black people do to play basketball, and it starts in high school. You can't tell me that there aren't white people out there that can play. How did the 86 celtics win it all with Bird, McHale, Ainge, and Walton (all white)?


[B] I 100% agree with you[/B].[/quote]

Wow I dont even know why I am going to bother with this, but I feel compelled so here it gos.

First of all no one said white people cant play basketball, someone said earlier that the reason there arent more white players is that the players that are better then them that made it to the NBA happen to be black.

Second of all if you admit that no team would sacrifice wins for racial prejudice, under that same line of reasoning it can be deduced that if there were white players with the same ability as their black counterparts in the NBA, that there would be someone taking these undervalued players and creating a dynasty out of them. Because under your line of reasoning white players are discriminated against and undervalued then a team could afford to pick up all of them and create an allstar team made of these players and sustain the team for a long time due to the small contracts they would have to pay them...Sounds foolproof, I say you go and pitch this idea to an owner of an NBA team, you'll be a legend!

The fact is that the NBA gathers all the best players it can find no matter what race they are or what country they come from. You really think that the NBA scouts would go out of their way to recruit people from Russia or China or whatever the fu*% else small hole in the wall country and at the same time neglect to recruit some of the best players from america because they think "white people can't jump?"

This is shear ignorance!

Just because you have a friend that you expected to make the pros and he wasn't given the respect YOU THINK he deserved does not prove that their is an over-arching bias against white basketball players.

Just as in this McNabb situation, I am sure there are some ignorant black folk that will scoff at a white basketball player on the black top, but overall any player worthy of recognition is given it, and given an opportunity no matter what their race is.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=jsarno;355185]Sort of. I used to be true, but it is no longer. However, the prejudice against a SCRAMBLING qb is still real. It has nothing to do with race, but everyone sees that a true scrambling QB has never won the super bowl. [B]Problem is, every scrambling Qb happens to be black[/B]. Teams feel pocket passers = super bowls. I tend to agree. A black pocket passer is hard to find.
ps- Campbell is a pocket passer.



Even Young and Campbell made comments that they are not. It used to be there, but it is no longer there. It's all about who the teams feel will win. If they felt that Warren Moon could come out of retirement to win a super bowl, they'd pay him to do it. It's that simple.[/quote]

Wrong again, What about Jake the Snake...and I am sure there are others. Your whole line of argument is based on your own bias. I will agree that scrambling qbs dont seem to be as successful, but to stereotype black qbs as scramblers and scrambling qbs as black is just racist...plain and simple. Furthermore, most qb's that have a tendency to scramble have readjusted their game, especially in the past 4-5 years. Even McNabb was coached to stay in the pocket more, and believe it was a successful adjustment.

Anyhow my point is, this has NOTHING to do with this topic, You are simply displaying your ignorance by automatically bringing up the stereotype when discussing black qb's.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

I don't think that many coaches consciously or unconsciously discriminate against white basketball players or black quarterbacks. I think that 99.9% of teams, particularly pro teams, but their best players out on the field or at the very least attempt to do so without regard to race. That said, I find it surprising that people don't think that there are some people, however few and far between, who do indeed harbor stereotypes about race and sports and allow such stereotypes to, intentionally or not, affect who they put on the field.

In any event, please make every attempt to discuss this topic with civility. If you cannot do so, please do not post. This is not in response to any one post, nor is it directed towards any single person; it is directed towards everyone.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=jsarno;355183]When did I say that NFL teams are discriminating against white people? I didn't say that, nor did I insinuate that. Curious as to how you even came to that conclusion.[/quote]

When you say white players are discriminated against that's exactly what you're saying. Not only that but you say that from HS all the way up there is systematic discrimination and that they simply don't get the chance they deserve. I'm not putting words in to your mouth here. It's plain, simple and quite clear.


[quote=jsarno;355183] Well, I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong. He was ranked #1 in the STATE. Pretty darn convincing if you ask me. Maybe I wasn't specific enough cause you used Lavar as an example, but he was ranked #1 in the state as a basketball player. For as much as people would like to think that racism doesn't exist in basketball, it's by far the most racist sport in the world. Look at the guy here that said that black basketball players are just better than white players...and oddly enough no one cared to say anything about it. It's simply not true. White people don't get the opportunity that black people do to play basketball, and it starts in high school. You can't tell me that there aren't white people out there that can play. How did the 86 celtics win it all with Bird, McHale, Ainge, and Walton (all white)? [/quote]

Ranked #1 eh? Lets do the simple math and stats...50 states in the country...that's 50 #1 players in the country...there are roughly 300 schools in the country and you're telling me not a single one of them wanted him? Not even a Division III school?

I'm curious as to who you think is keeping the white man down from making it big in bball? Maybe those with authority are flawed in their assessment of how good black, european and south american bball players are? You obviously have beef with the fact that NBA doesn't have enough white players so let's hear why that is and what you propose to alleviate the plight of white bball players.


p.s. It's really hard for me to take you seriously when I consider the fact that the majority of high school, collegiate and professional coaches are white.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

lets cut the racist crap out. its bad enough it still exists. theres a lot of things i could say but prefer not to stoop that low. there are good blacks, whites, yellows, greens, etc... as well as there a bad blacks , whites , yellows, greens, etc.. jeesh lets get over it. i dont agree with anyone pulling the racist thing out just to use it as an excuse. leave that shit in the past.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=WillH;355195]

First of all no one said white people cant play basketball, someone said earlier that the reason there arent more white players is that the players that are better then them that made it to the NBA happen to be black.[/quote]

Same difference. Funny...there are many white people in the HOF, and were around for many years...then they just disappeared???? Do you realize how foolish you sound with this?

[quote]Second of all if you admit that no team would sacrifice wins for racial prejudice, under that same line of reasoning it can be deduced that if there were white players with the same ability as their black counterparts in the NBA, that there would be someone taking these undervalued players and creating a dynasty out of them. Because under your line of reasoning white players are discriminated against and undervalued then a team could afford to pick up all of them and create an allstar team made of these players and sustain the team for a long time due to the small contracts they would have to pay them...Sounds foolproof, I say you go and pitch this idea to an owner of an NBA team, you'll be a legend![/quote]

No...what you are failing to realize that when you are racist, you BELEIVE what you are thinking. So if you BELEIVE white people are not as good as black people, those white people don't get a chance. Therefore they select a different career.
So are you telling me black people aren't as smart as white people? If this is untrue (and I beleive it to be untrue) then why do colleges have a "quota" for black people? It's because they supposedly weren't given the opportunity to learn like the white people have. Just like the white people don't get the same opportunities as black people do.

[quote]The fact is that the NBA gathers all the best players it can find no matter what race they are or what country they come from. You really think that the NBA scouts would go out of their way to recruit people from Russia or China or whatever the fu*% else small hole in the wall country and at the same time neglect to recruit some of the best players from america because they think "white people can't jump?"[/quote]

YES. Just like baseball does more recruiting in latin america than in small towns in the USA.
But again, if the white people aren't given the opportunity, why bother?

[quote]This is shear ignorance! [/quote]

Yes it is...you have been quite ignorant in thinking basketball is not racist. You chalk it up to "they are better". Well who is to say those white qb's aren't better? Come on man...racism is racism. Just because a person is black does not make him a better athlete.

[quote]Just because you have a friend that you expected to make the pros and he wasn't given the respect YOU THINK he deserved does not prove that their is an over-arching bias against white basketball players.[/quote]

How many times do I have to correct people? I didn't say anything about the pros, I said he was the #1 high school player in Florida and was not offered a scholoarship anywhere. This is not up for debate, this is fact...how do you explain that? What if a black person was ranked #1 in the state...how many colleges do you think would be drooling over him? I m done with this conversation because it is going no where. Unfortunately you can't take racism out of certain people. I feel for you.

[quote]Just as in this McNabb situation, I am sure there are some ignorant black folk that will scoff at a white basketball player on the black top, but overall any player worthy of recognition is given it, and given an opportunity no matter what their race is.[/QUOTE]

Not in basketball...there have been thousands of documented cases.

Back to the point...McNabb is not being scrutinized due to race...end of story.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[QUOTE=Darrell_Green_28;355211]lets cut the racist crap out. its bad enough it still exists. theres a lot of things i could say but prefer not to stoop that low. there are good blacks, whites, yellows, greens, etc... as well as there a bad blacks , whites , yellows, greens, etc.. jeesh lets get over it. i dont agree with anyone pulling the racist thing out just to use it as an excuse. leave that shit in the past.[/QUOTE]

I agree...good post.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

Sorry, I may have been out of line. I will give up on this topic after this post because obviously Im a bit touchy on this subject. It just bothers me that there is still such blatant ignorance in this country, from both sides of the spectrum. It is a very strong desire of mine to see progress made in bridging the racial divide, but it seems there are so many people intent on keeping it the way it is. McNabb has seen alot of it. He has gotten it from both sides of the spectrum, from both whites and blacks, so I see what he is talking about. But I would have been much more impressed if he hadn't made himself out to be a victim (I already thought he was a victim in prior incidences, I didn't need to hear him complain), and had said that it was something that he regretted to have to encounter because of what it meant about that state of America. Rather he seemed to care more about what it meant for himself and his own career. Maybe there are some biases in sports that need to be resolved, but it seems to me that professional sports is a pretty good gig despite the criticism you are undoubtedly going to receive. Complaining about this crap is just not what is important in racial relations. I think it is more important to address the fact that white and black people seem to still be hell bent on distancing themselves from one another. In Jena, LA a tree was planted by two young men, one white and one black, as a symbol of unity. Many years later a group of white students and a group of black students fought over which group got to sit under the tree, this fight degraded into blatant hateful acts of racism. The tree was taken down. That is so sad to me. Rather then learning to hangout together and share the tree that their ancestors planted as a symbol of unity, they let the dream die. This dream IS dieing. There may be progress in racial equality, and some progress has been made in racial relations, but we still feel a need to segregate ourselves from one another. These are the things we should be concerned about. And frankly comments that engender ideas of divisiveness are a step in the wrong direction. And in some ways I think McNabb (and others) have leaned in that direction. The direction taken in racial relations should be toward bringing us closer together not towards pointing fingers at one another and creating more of a gap. Maybe what Mcnabb said wasn't blatantly wrong or damaging to anything other then his own career and public image, but it definitely wasn't in the vein of what the early civil rights activists were trying to accomplish. Therefore, I have lost a little respect for him (As I used to hold him in high regard). As for this thread, I spent way too much energy and emotion discussing something so trivial, but I guess it is because I hold race relations as of incredible importance, and to see others miss the point so badly makes me feel compelled to interject. I hope I haven't offended anyone, and I am sorry for getting all up in arms (sorry especially to you jsarno, it wasn't my place to judge, though I think you are completely misguided), sometimes passion can make us act like asses.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

Donovan McNabb should be applauded for his courage to answer a question honestly posed to him by James Brown. As a fan of the Washington Redskins for over 30 years I applaud Joe Gibbs for recognizing the potential in Jason Campbell,but were it not for James Harris, Warren Moon, Doug Williams and Donovan McNabb, Jason Campbell or Vince Young could not stand up today in an interview and say they haven't experienced the same scrutiny that McNabb spoke of. What pisses me off with this so-called objective media is that they put a microphone in front of Jason Campbell a player who hasn't played an entire season and certainly has not felt the scorn of his fans yet. So it was a divide and conquer tactic to get one black person to refute another black persons experience because in the media's viewpoint, one monolithic view represents all black QB'S view ie..Jesse Jackson. Only Black people in general are given one spokesman to speak for them while other people speak for themselves. Some people will never understand the complexities of racism and white supremacy because it is subconcsciously taught to them in church, school , religion and even sports. Based on some of the comments I have read on this thread, there is enough ignorance to go around.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=saden1;355208]When you say white players are discriminated against that's exactly what you're saying. Not only that but you say that from HS all the way up there is systematic discrimination and that they simply don't get the chance they deserve. I'm not putting words in to your mouth here. It's plain, simple and quite clear. [/quote]

Yes you are...I never once said white people are being held down in the NFL. Please pay attention to what I am saying and not making your own conclusions.
They are discriminated in basketball ONLY. Why are you lumping NFL and NBA in the same breathe? (and it's all you...not me...re-read if you have to) I have been very specific in saying that there is no racism in the NFL, black or white. That's what this topic is all about.



[quote]Ranked #1 eh? Lets do the simple math and stats...50 states in the country...that's 50 #1 players in the country...there are roughly 300 schools in the country and you're telling me not a single one of them wanted him? Not even a Division III school?[/quote]

Well, no one came to him. The ones he went to (this is from who I recall, but I know there were more) Florida, Florida State, Miami U, SFU, Georgia U, Arkansas U, Cal, UCLA, NC State, and UMASS. All turned him down. All for players that were inferior (at least by rankings). It was wrong. This happens more than you think, but since it's not PC to talk about white people being discriminated against, no one hears about it. It doesn't make it any more wrong. Ken was 6'7" and had mad ball handling skills. No one could keep up with him. He was a track star too...and still no scholarship.
So, even by what you said, 50 states, so that means he's a top 50 player across the country, and how come no one offered a scholarship? Not a single team!!!!????

[quote]I'm curious as to who you think is keeping the white man down from making it big in bball? Maybe those with authority are flawed in their assessment of how good black, european and south american bball players are? You obviously have beef with the fact that NBA doesn't have enough white players so let's hear why that is and what you propose to alleviate the plight of white bball players.[/quote]

I don't know how to answer that. It's a stigma put on white players so they are not given the chance.
I tell you this, I guarentee if black people wanted to play hockey, and were kept out, they would make a huge fuss until someone made a law / rule that allowed a certain amount in. Why do the white people in this case not get that kind of respect?

[quote]p.s. It's really hard for me to take you seriously when I consider the fact that the majority of high school, collegiate and professional coaches are white.[/QUOTE]

Because the majority are white, you are saying there isn't a stigma against the white player? WOW. So by your thoughts, every black coach should have a black qb. But I guess, since none of them do, then I can make the leap that they think black qb's aren't as good as white qb's? That's absurd.
Come on guys...it's obvious there is a thought out there that white people can't play as good as black people in basketball. This is nothing new.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[QUOTE=SUNRA;355215]Donovan McNabb should be applauded for his courage to answer a question honestly posed to him by James Brown. As a fan of the Washington Redskins for over 30 years I applaud Joe Gibbs for recognizing the potential in Jason Campbell,but were it not for James Harris, Warren Moon, Doug Williams and Donovan McNabb, Jason Campbell or Vince Young could not stand up today in an interview and say they haven't experienced the same scrutiny that McNabb spoke of. What pisses me off with this so-called objective media is that they put a microphone in front of Jason Campbell a player who hasn't played an entire season and certainly has not felt the scorn of his fans yet. So it was a divide and conquer tactic to get one black person to refute another black persons experience because in the media's viewpoint, one monolithic view represents all black QB'S view ie..Jesse Jackson. Only Black people in general are given one spokesman to speak for them while other people speak for themselves. [b]Some people will never understand the complexities of racism and white supremacy because it is subconcsciously taught to them in church, school , religion and even sports. Based on some of the comments I have read on this thread, there is enough ignorance to go around.[/b][/QUOTE]

Come on dude, there is just as much racism in the black community as there is in the white, if not more. And it's taught to black people every day just as you pointed out. Let's not make this another "it's the white person's fault". Don't think I am accurrate? If you are black, ask yourself how many white players jersey's you have, and how many black players jersey's you have. I have 4 white players, and 18 black players. How many times do you see a black person with a white players jersey on their back? Sure it happens, but not very often. Why is it most white people can see a player as a player regardless of color, but a lot of black people have to make the separation of race? Why not just see it as the human race (as corny as that sounds). When I saw Pedro Martinez on the mound, I didn't see a guy from the dominican republic, I saw a member of the Red Sox going after a world series ring. When I see Jason Campbell lead us to victory, I don't see a black QB, I see a redskins QB who is trying to win us a game.

I understand the world is not ready to hear about the fact that racism is more alive in the minds of a lot of black people...and for the record, I know a lot of black people here that are classy and wonderful, and have not seen racism in them...I am speaking in generics, and this topic gets very dicey. My intent is not to offend...and I will likely refrain from further topic on this because this could get very ugly and I don't want that. I enjoy most of the people on this site, and enjoy the views, and I wish to keep it that way.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=jsarno;355216]Yes you are...I never once said white people are being held down in the NFL. Please pay attention to what I am saying and not making your own conclusions.
They are discriminated in basketball ONLY. Why are you lumping NFL and NBA in the same breathe? (and it's all you...not me...re-read if you have to) I have been very specific in saying that there is no racism in the NFL, black or white. That's what this topic is all about.





Well, no one came to him. The ones he went to (this is from who I recall, but I know there were more) Florida, Florida State, Miami U, SFU, Georgia U, Arkansas U, Cal, UCLA, NC State, and UMASS. All turned him down. All for players that were inferior (at least by rankings). It was wrong. This happens more than you think, but since it's not PC to talk about white people being discriminated against, no one hears about it. It doesn't make it any more wrong. Ken was 6'7" and had mad ball handling skills. No one could keep up with him. He was a track star too...and still no scholarship.
So, even by what you said, 50 states, so that means he's a top 50 player across the country, and how come no one offered a scholarship? Not a single team!!!!????



I don't know how to answer that. It's a stigma put on white players so they are not given the chance.
I tell you this, I guarentee if black people wanted to play hockey, and were kept out, they would make a huge fuss until someone made a law / rule that allowed a certain amount in. Why do the white people in this case not get that kind of respect?



Because the majority are white, you are saying there isn't a stigma against the white player? WOW. So by your thoughts, every black coach should have a black qb. But I guess, since none of them do, then I can make the leap that they think black qb's aren't as good as white qb's? That's absurd.
[B] Come on guys...it's obvious there is a thought out there that white people can't play as good as black people in basketball. This is nothing new.[/B][/quote]

Eh I dunno if thats necessarily true. Granted, Black people do tend to be better in basketball but come on, wasn't the Dream Team getting spanked a few years ago by all these international teams. Made up of people who WEREN'T Black?

I believe if a White guy lives and breathes basketball, he's just as good or better than any Black player. I'm not even White and I think you guys aren't giving White guys enough credit. Granted, there are no White Jordan's but come on. Its not like every White dude out there stinks.

As for Ken, I mean those are the breaks. Sometimes a guy can go to a smaller school and not an NCAA school and still get drafted (Look at Sellers, eh?) Just cause Black guys get in and he doesn't, doesn't mean it's time to pull out the race card. Lots of good people get skipped over for other prospects. That's life.

Come on now, its 2007 I thought we were past all this petty race card shit.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=DynamiteRave;355218]Eh I dunno if thats necessarily true. Granted, Black people do tend to be better in basketball but come on, wasn't the Dream Team getting spanked a few years ago by all these international teams. Made up of people who WEREN'T Black?[quote]

Very good point...A LOT were white, yet none of them were signed on to NBA teams.

[quote]I believe if a White guy lives and breathes basketball, he's just as good or better than any Black player. I'm not even White and I think you guys aren't giving White guys enough credit. Granted, there are no White Jordan's but come on. Its not like every White dude out there stinks.[/quote]

LOL...I don't think there will ever be another Jordan...that guy was flat out amazing. That being said, I thank you for your honest opinion, and appreciate your view.

[quote]As for Ken, I mean those are the breaks. Sometimes a guy can go to a smaller school and not an NCAA school and still get drafted (Look at Sellers, eh?) Just cause Black guys get in and he doesn't, doesn't mean it's time to pull out the race card. Lots of good people get skipped over for other prospects. That's life.[/quote]

Well, he ended up going to Edison College and only played on the playground from there on out. It was quite a shame. If it happened to him, how many others did it happen to?

[quote]Come on now, its 2007 I thought we were past all this petty race card shit.[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree...again, thank you for your comments, it was a good post.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;355217]Come on dude, [B]there is just as much racism in the black community as there is in the white, if not more. And it's taught to black people every day[/B] just as you pointed out. Let's not make this another "it's the white person's fault". Don't think I am accurrate? If you are black, ask yourself how many white players jersey's you have, and how many black players jersey's you have. I have 4 white players, and 18 black players. How many times do you see a black person with a white players jersey on their back? Sure it happens, but not very often. [B]Why is it most white people can see a player as a player regardless of color, but a lot of black people have to make the separation of race?[/B] Why not just see it as the human race (as corny as that sounds). When I saw Pedro Martinez on the mound, I didn't see a guy from the dominican republic, I saw a member of the Red Sox going after a world series ring. When I see Jason Campbell lead us to victory, I don't see a black QB, I see a redskins QB who is trying to win us a game.

[B]I understand the world is not ready to hear about the fact that racism is more alive in the minds of a lot of black people[/B]...and for the record, I know a lot of black people here that are classy and wonderful, and have not seen racism in them...I am speaking in generics, and this topic gets very dicey. My intent is not to offend...and I will likely refrain from further topic on this because this could get very ugly and I don't want that. I enjoy most of the people on this site, and enjoy the views, and I wish to keep it that way.[/QUOTE]

The irony in the above passage (i.e., black people are more racist than white people) is quite amazing.

And, I still do not understand how you applaud people for saying "why can't we quit this race card sh*t" when it comes to black QBs, but then pull a race card when it comes to whites in the NBA. Even though you chastise blacks for supposedly seeing color in NFL players, you obviously see color in NBA players.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;355221]The irony in the above passage (i.e., black people are more racist than white people) is quite amazing.[/quote]

Funny how that is how you saw that instead of seeing that racism is not just in the hearts of white people. You seem to be completely missing many points, and that is unlike what I have encountered with you in previous threads. I can only assume it's due to the fact that this is a sensitive subject for you.

[quote]And, I still do not understand how you applaud people for saying "why can't we quit this race card sh*t" when it comes to black QBs, but then pull a race card when it comes to whites in the NBA. Even though you chastise blacks for supposedly seeing color in NFL players, you obviously see color in NBA players.[/QUOTE]

This whole NBA thing started from the McNabb thing. The whole point was, how can you see racism in the QB front, but not in the NBA?
Fact is, after this conversation, I will go back to fogetting about it, cause I'm not a big fan of basketball. But if you are trying to make an assertion of racism where there is not, why not look where it actually is?
Sometimes you need to follow along with the conversation, not jump around.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

Honestly Donovan is dumb for bringing this up. If anything he might have just sparked a more racial look at quarterbacks. I mean of course it had occurred to me that Jason Campbell was black but I never looked at it that way. And lets not forget and I think the one good thing Charles Barkley did in the booth Monday night was saying how the fans in Philly are tough. They don't really care if you get them to the NFC Championship 3 years in a row they want a Super Bowl. Alas, racism is going to continue to live on as long as people like Donovan McNabb and Jessie Jackson keep doing what they are doing.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[QUOTE=Cowell;355231]Honestly Donovan is dumb for bringing this up. If anything he might have just sparked a more racial look at quarterbacks. I mean of course it had occurred to me that Jason Campbell was black but I never looked at it that way. And lets not forget and I think the one good thing Charles Barkley did in the booth Monday night was saying how the fans in Philly are tough. They don't really care if you get them to the NFC Championship 3 years in a row they want a Super Bowl. Alas, racism is going to continue to live on as long as people like Donovan McNabb and Jessie Jackson keep doing what they are doing.[/QUOTE]

Very good points.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[QUOTE=Cowell;355231]Alas, racism is going to continue to live on as long as people like Donovan McNabb and Jessie Jackson keep doing what they are doing.[/QUOTE]

Or as long as white people think that blacks are handed things on a silver platter and, if only they could click their heels and be black, everything would magically be better. There are a lot of racist black people who hate whites and blame their failures on whites, but there are a lot of white people who hate blacks and/or blame their own inadequacies and failings on reverse racism.

I'm done with this one. I don't see it going anywhere. Good luck and be nice to one another.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=jsarno;355216]Yes you are...I never once said white people are being held down in the NFL. Please pay attention to what I am saying and not making your own conclusions.
They are discriminated in basketball ONLY. Why are you lumping NFL and NBA in the same breathe? (and it's all you...not me...re-read if you have to) I have been very specific in saying that there is no racism in the NFL, black or white. That's what this topic is all about.[/quote]

So if we go by your logic one can presume, based on statistics, there is racism in hockey because not too many black people play it? How come you can make that leap about bball and I can't about hockey?

Lets turn our attention to baseball, there used to be lots of black players in the MLB but their numbers have been dwindling in the last few decades...why is that? It's discrimination that's why! MLB now prefers Latino players, especially those Cubans.

[quote=jsarno;355216]Well, no one came to him. The ones he went to (this is from who I recall, but I know there were more) Florida, Florida State, Miami U, SFU, Georgia U, Arkansas U, Cal, UCLA, NC State, and UMASS. All turned him down. All for players that were inferior (at least by rankings). It was wrong. This happens more than you think, but since it's not PC to talk about white people being discriminated against, no one hears about it. It doesn't make it any more wrong. Ken was 6'7" and had mad ball handling skills. No one could keep up with him. He was a track star too...and still no scholarship.
So, even by what you said, 50 states, so that means he's a top 50 player across the country, and how come no one offered a scholarship? Not a single team!!!!???? [/quote]

Does that mean he was discriminated against? That's life man, it's a bitch! Sometimes the deserving don't get an opportunity. That goes both ways too. You obviously feel that this guy was given the shaft but then again you think state ranking alone should be good enough to give him a roster spot. I can play the same card too...Stanford U and UVA wouldn't accept me even though I had very good grades and I was sure I had good enough marks to get in. I can only guess they met their black quota...lol.

[quote=jsarno;355216]I don't know how to answer that. It's a [B]stigma[/B] put on white players so they are not given the chance.
I tell you this, I guarentee if black people wanted to play hockey, and were kept out, they would make a huge fuss until someone made a law / rule that allowed a certain amount in. Why do the white people in this case not get that kind of respect? [/quote]

I do believe you've just validated what McNabb was saying. If there's stigma against white bball players why can't there be stigma against black QBs in this day and age?

BTW black people don't play hockey (or most of the sports you don't see them play for that matter) is because a) the cost of entry is high and b) they'd rather play bball or football. Finally, speaking for myself and people I know, we think hockey sucks donkey-d*ck. Hockey is figure skating with sticks and one of the most boring sport ever. If you take a poll among black people nation wide I'm confidant they'll tell you the same thing.

[quote=jsarno;355216] Because the majority are white, you are saying there isn't a stigma against the white player? WOW. So by your thoughts, every black coach should have a black qb. But I guess, since none of them do, then I can make the leap that they think black qb's aren't as good as white qb's? That's absurd.
Come on guys...it's obvious there is a thought out there that white people can't play as good as black people in basketball. This is nothing new.[/quote]

Don't turn this around on me, I'm not the one trashing coaches around the country by labeling them racist because they aren't willing to coach and play quality white players.

The world isn't black or white my friend, it's shades of gray.

p.s. I wonder what your take on J.J. Riddick saga is.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[quote=jsarno;355230]This whole NBA thing started from the McNabb thing. The whole point was, how can you see racism in the QB front, but not in the NBA?
Fact is, after this conversation, I will go back to fogetting about it, cause I'm not a big fan of basketball. [B]But if you are trying to make an assertion of racism where there is not, why not look where it actually is[/B]?
Sometimes you need to follow along with the conversation, not jump around.[/quote]

My man, do you know that you sound like Jessie Jackson?

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;355217]Come on dude, there is just as much racism in the black community as there is in the white, if not more. And it's taught to black people every day just as you pointed out. Let's not make this another "it's the white person's fault". Don't think I am accurrate? If you are black, ask yourself how many white players jersey's you have, and how many black players jersey's you have. I have 4 white players, and 18 black players. How many times do you see a black person with a white players jersey on their back? Sure it happens, but not very often. Why is it most white people can see a player as a player regardless of color, but a lot of black people have to make the separation of race? Why not just see it as the human race (as corny as that sounds). When I saw Pedro Martinez on the mound, I didn't see a guy from the dominican republic, I saw a member of the Red Sox going after a world series ring. When I see Jason Campbell lead us to victory, I don't see a black QB, I see a redskins QB who is trying to win us a game.

I understand the world is not ready to hear about the fact that racism is more alive in the minds of a lot of black people...and for the record, I know a lot of black people here that are classy and wonderful, and have not seen racism in them...I am speaking in generics, and this topic gets very dicey. My intent is not to offend...and I will likely refrain from further topic on this because this could get very ugly and I don't want that. I enjoy most of the people on this site, and enjoy the views, and I wish to keep it that way.[/QUOTE]

First and foremost I respect your view and your sincerity with not wanting to offend anyone. I would like to respond to your comments about what I said. When you spoke of racism among Black people it should be understood that racism is predjudice +power. The ability to include and exclude. Black people do not have the power to affect other Black or White people's ability to buy a house, car or obtain a business loan.

As far as what jersey people wear is based on their on own individual taste or the player they most admire. As for me, my favorite player hands down is John Riggins. I grew up in D.C. which was 95% black at that time and I recognized the genius of a white RB just like thousands of other black children did. You know black people do not have to be taught to love white athletes or white people in general, because everything around us told us to respect and value everyones culture except our own. There are some Black QB's I like and some I don't particularly care for. But overall, its about celebrating the diverse experiences we have and respecting each other even if we don't understand all of the complexities they present.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

[QUOTE=SUNRA;355250]First and foremost I respect your view and your sincerity with not wanting to offend anyone. I would like to respond to your comments about what I said. When you spoke of racism among Black people it should be understood that racism is predjudice +power. The ability to include and exclude. Black people do not have the power to affect other Black or White people's ability to buy a house, car or obtain a business loan.

As far as what jersey people wear is based on their on own individual taste or the player they most admire. As for me, my favorite player hands down is John Riggins. I grew up in D.C. which was 95% black at that time and I recognized the genius of a white RB just like thousands of other black children did. You know black people do not have to be taught to love white athletes or white people in general, because everything around us told us to respect and value everyones culture except our own. There are some Black QB's I like and some I don't particularly care for. But overall, its about celebrating the diverse experiences we have and respecting each other even if we don't understand all of the complexities they present.[/QUOTE]

Very good post, and thank you for your civility. You make very good points.

Re: McNabb says black QBs criticized more
 

This thread has taken an awful turn, for all those I offended, I sincerely apologize, and I bow out.