Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;387891]Let me ask you this though. Had he won the game do you think we'd be praising Gibbs for keeping the team together and leading us to victory? By and large I would say no. I would say even if it had come down to a final missed field goal, we would hear about how he nearly blew it.[/QUOTE]

Depends on how we won. If everything was the same and it was a botched Lindell FG, then I think you're right, but only cause we did blow it. Had we scored 1 td instead of FG on those FG's, then I think Gibbs would have gotten the credit for keeping the team together. The chips were already stacked against us. I do not recall a player EVER in the NFL dieing like this that meant more to their team. We are in uncharted waters, so if we won, Gibbs would have gotten a lot of credit.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=Sammy Baugh Fan;387849]If Gibbs didn't know the rule...what aboy 60+ playeys, Coaches and staff?[/QUOTE]

I think he just lost track of the fact that it's actually a penalty. That's only changed in the past couple of years. In the past, you were just told no you can't call timeout

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;387485]It really only bothers me when people want to dismiss 2005 when those same people aren't quick to dimsiss our free agent moves in 2000 for example.

As for Gibbs, stupid mistake. He knows it, you know it, I know it. But I am not going to apologize for being a fan of his, and wanting him to stay as long as he wants to stay. In all honesty, he probably never should have come back in the first place. There's nothing he really could have done to improve his image with the fans. He had nowhere to go reputation wise but down. I believe we have the makings of a great QB who is going to lead us to great things long after Gibbs is gone. But no one will ever be appreciative of Gibbs for that.[/quote]

I am a fan of his too. I love the guy. But as a NFL coach in his 2nd go around he is just not getting the job done. It's as simple as that. I kind of wish he would step down at the end of this year. He doesn't need this. But today I can't blame anybody. I can't imagine what it would have been like to take the field and play a football game today. I give everyone a pass for the rest of this season. It's just a horrible year.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;387910]I am a fan of his too. I love the guy. But as a NFL coach in his 2nd go around he is just not getting the job done. It's as simple as that. I kind of wish he would step down at the end of this year. He doesn't need this. But today I can't blame anybody. I can't imagine what it would have been like to take the field and play a football game today. I give everyone a pass for the rest of this season. It's just a horrible year.[/QUOTE]

And that's the thing. You hit it right on the head. He doesn't need this. It's part of why I'm torn about wanting him back. It's purely selfish. I love the man and love that he's a part of the organization but he deserves to relax, and be with his family and his sick grandchild. He owes us nothing.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

It is unfair to blame this loss on Gibbs.
Sure a mistake might have led to the loss, but that mistake happened many, many times by many people on the Redskins today. The OL gave up 2pts and didn't give Portis or JC much time or help in trying to put up points.
The defense under horrible circumstance held the Bills with no TDs.
Before people call for the head of Joe Gibbs perhpas they should step back and look at the big picture. Gibbs is not the problem, but I still believe he'll be a huge part of the solution.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

Time out or not sorry but Gibbs is our hope. He is just like us. This hole ST thing has us all not on the right page. This team needs to look at out O and D lines! That is where all good or great teams started. We have a few nice players but most are other teams left overs! We also need to get young good players and stay away from the older player looking for that last kill pay day!

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

I feel for Gibbs, but that has got to be one of the absolute dumbest things I have ever seen. I'm sorry, I know it's an emotional day, but in a season filled with clock management failures this is the low point. Everybody knows that rule. I just can't believe it.

Yeah we should have stopped them, moved the ball in the second half, scored TD's not FG's in the first, fine fine fine. But to not understand that rule, to make that mistake with the whole season on the line, is simply inexcusable.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;387868]I can't imagine what Gibbs must be going through right now. He's asked to guide the team all week, an extraorindarily difficult day, and then it all slips away on a mental gaffe of Gibbs.

It's a real shame. I hope they can all bounce back next week. But Gibbs must know that he can't do anything good. He obviously can't go out and make a play on the field. If it's a great playcall, credit goes to Saunders. He himself is in an unwinnable situation. Has been since the day he walked back into Redskins Park in 2004.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with you SS. While I think the national media can be dismissive, the DC media is incredibly sympathetic, as are the fans. The expectation when he walked through that door in 2004 was championship, nothing less. Gibbs knew that and welcomed that challenge. Unfair? Perhaps, but in the parity-driven NFL that's the expectation for all 32 teams and their head coaches - who are generally fired after year 3 if the team does not appear to be on at least a championship track. Well here we are year 4 and we're not, in my opinion, close to that standard. He's a good, solid, decent man, and some part of me hurts to see him attacked. But in the NFL that's what you risk when you wear the crown. For a shot at the sweetest glory you expose yourself to ridicule and worse if you fail.

And I'm sorry, he's failing.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

Okay I am going to admitt for a minute after the game I felt the same way as the majority here i said to my wife "i don't know how the team dares to wear the 21 patch they were an insult to his name"
Then I thought ... just a second, and I felt how the team must be fealing. In the post game PC Smoot who i thought played a blinder of a game being real physical and tras:h talking said

"sometimes i cried when I looked back at the safety possition not seeing Sean there"

And that has to tell you something about the way the team was playing . They have to bury not only a teamate but a friend tomorrow and yes it would have been great to 'win the game for Sean' but would that have brought him back ... in the bigger picture it is just a game .

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

Also from the post today :

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/02/AR2007120201236.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]

"Unsure about the rules regarding the use of timeouts in an attempt to "freeze" a place kicker, Gibbs said he consulted an official along the sideline, asking whether he could call another timeout after the one he had used a moment earlier, before Buffalo's Rian Lindell sent the ball through the uprights from 51 yards away. Regardless of what the official told Gibbs, his decision to call consecutive timeouts in that situation led to a 15-yard penalty. "

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;387936]I disagree with you SS. While I think the national media can be dismissive, the DC media is incredibly sympathetic, as are the fans. The expectation when he walked through that door in 2004 was championship, nothing less. Gibbs knew that and welcomed that challenge. Unfair? Perhaps, but in the parity-driven NFL that's the expectation for all 32 teams and their head coaches - who are generally fired after year 3 if the team does not appear to be on at least a championship track. Well here we are year 4 and we're not, in my opinion, close to that standard. He's a good, solid, decent man, and some part of me hurts to see him attacked. But in the NFL that's what you risk when you wear the crown. For a shot at the sweetest glory you expose yourself to ridicule and worse if you fail.

And I'm sorry, he's failing.[/QUOTE]

We're going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. Maybe because I consider guys like Pollin, Czaban, Doc Walker local media even though they are national as well. And the fans? Hardly sympathetic.

I mean I keep hearing about how tough it's been all week for the players, for Williams. How they left it all on the field. But...well I've hardly heard anything about that for Gibbs, and I just don't believe for one minute anyone would have given him any credit for a win.

I agree that it was a boneheaded move on his part, but I hope that Redskins fans and the media aren't so narrow minded as to continue to blame everything single mistake on him. It may seem like I go overboard to defend Gibbs, but sometimes I have to just to balance out all the absolute hate there is towards him.

As a fan I want him back next year. But as a friend (of a friend of a friend of a friend, etc.) I think he deserves better than to be involved with this organization and its fans.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

Every Coach in the NFL but just 1 fails every season. If you don't win the Super Bowl you failed. Period.

I think Gibbs is human and makes mistakes but he is the best thing that has happened to this team in a Decade and there is no one I can see to replace him with that would be any better.

He will be back next year as Coach and I want him back. After Coaching I "think" he was promised a part of the Team and the position of President of Football Operations or something like that. He ain't going anywhere.

Hail Skins
mike

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

My only question to the staunch Gibbs supporters is, if this was ANYONE else who has posted the record he has in the past 4 years, with the team playing like they do, making time management gaffes and with the current state and direction of the team, would you be be calling for a change-yes or no?

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain;387970]My only question to the staunch Gibbs supporters is, if this was ANYONE else who has posted the record he has in the past 4 years, with the team playing like they do, making time management gaffes and with the current state and direction of the team, would you be be calling for a change-yes or no?[/QUOTE]

I'll be honest....I'm not sure. In 2004 the defense was spectacular, but the offense and the record were putrid. In 2005, the offense was actually decent (ranked 11th), the defense was solid, and the record was very good. In 2006, we were simply all-around bad. In 2007, although the coaches have made some bad decisions, but I still feel that player execution (e.g., JC throwing untimely picks) has been less than ideal. I would keep the entire coaching staff intact and give them another year, hoping that JC's experience would bring good things and that we would not have so many injuries next season. If things didn't turn around in 2008, I'd probably want a new coach.

But, the fact is that our coach is Gibbs. What is our team without Gibbs? I don't know, but if it were not for him I might be a mod on Wizards board.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

I'm a big longtime JG fan. I've been critical of him but I was always positive about him turning this team around. A couple weeks ago i wanted him to come back for his 5 season too.

I've been pushed to the other side of the fence now and have to come to the realization that I'd like to see JG gone after this season. Not neccessarily b/c of the "2nd timeout" but b/c of the overall lack of any sort of balls.

You have a game where the bills have been successful moving the ball in the second half, playing against a team w/ a great fg kicker, and playing w/ a defense that it emotionally spent w/ many injuries. Oh yeah, and we've been averaging 2 yards a rush all game. Sooooo...why don't we actually try to WIN THE GAME instead of trying to run the clock down and have the bills use their timeouts. I am so sick of seeing this game over and over again. Its like groundhog day. I bought tix for $150/each, paid $8 for a beer , and so on to see a coach scared to lose.

Remind yourselves this is the Bills. We were at home. I'm not upset at the players as they were emotionally spent. I wanted us to win this game for them. I'm just sad that it didn't happen. As for the coaching staff...we've been seeing this for awhile now and it has to change. You can't win in the NFL. I think its time to move on.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;387947]We're going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. Maybe because I consider guys like Pollin, Czaban, Doc Walker local media even though they are national as well. And the fans? Hardly sympathetic.

I mean I keep hearing about how tough it's been all week for the players, for Williams. How they left it all on the field. But...well I've hardly heard anything about that for Gibbs, and I just don't believe for one minute anyone would have given him any credit for a win.

I agree that it was a boneheaded move on his part, but I hope that Redskins fans and the media aren't so narrow minded as to continue to blame everything single mistake on him. It may seem like I go overboard to defend Gibbs, but sometimes I have to just to balance out all the absolute hate there is towards him.

As a fan I want him back next year. But as a friend (of a friend of a friend of a friend, etc.) I think he deserves better than to be involved with this organization and its fans.[/quote]

Smoot, sometimes I do think you go overboard in defending Gibbs. But you know what? I can't really blame you. Gibbs is such a great man who has bought so much joy to alot of us his first go around. He's a quality human being. I could never boo the man as some fans did yesterday. But as some have said it comes with the territory. He gets more credit for the first go around than I think he deserves. No one ever talks about Ritchie Pettibone, who was one of the best DC's of all time. If there was a HOF for assistants he would be a first ballot. People rarely mention Bobby B. And no one, I mean no one credits Charley C. for getting the players ( Tim Johnson, Matt Millen, Eric Williams, Fred Stokes, Jason Buck, Jumpy Geathers, I'm sure I'm mssing a few) on plan B in 89 & 90 to help the 91 team win the SB. It's all Gibbs. He got in the HOF because of the people that were around him, as well as him being a great heach coach. I'm not knocking him in anyway but that's the truth. The HC, like the QB gets too much credit for winning and too much blame for losing.

The 2nd TO yesterday was awful, but people are just plain old stupid if they think that cost us the game.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but what's up with the fact that Gibbs asked the ref if he could take back to back timeouts and the ref said yes??

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote=pg86;387534]Ok but the penalty.
Whats the penalty for it on madden? Or in the rule book?[/quote]

There is no penalty in Madden, it won't even allow you to call consecutive time outs.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;387984]There is no penalty in Madden, it won't even allow you to call consecutive time outs.[/QUOTE]

It's a new rule. Only been in effect for two years. To be clear, it was always illegal but up until two years all that would happen is the referee would say is no...and then the kicking team would line up for the field goal/extra point. It only recently became "unsportsmanlike conduct" for trying to ice the kicker like that.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;387982]Sorry if this has already been mentioned but what's up with the fact that Gibbs asked the ref if he could take back to back timeouts and the ref said yes??[/QUOTE]

It's not the referee's job to educate a head coach on the rules.. It's like asking 'can I hold the DE if I get beat?' Sure you can hold him if you want, but I'm gonna flag you for holding.

Guys, no matter how we want to spin it, that was an unexcusable error. You have to know the rules, flat out.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

Gibbs called both and, frankly, I think it's one of the stupidest coaching moves I've ever seen. No excuse. Everyone knows you can't call 2 timeouts in a row.

You learn that in grad school. And he's a HOF coach!

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;387389]This just added fuel to the fire. If it were just this week, kinda understandable. But we're seeing a trend and not going after it.[/QUOTE]

Exactly...if this were the Skins' first loss in a while, we could chalk it up to the team being down because of the death of Sean Taylor, but this is the FOURTH WEEK IN A ROW that the Skins have done this crap!!! Their defense has been doing a good job for the most part, but their offense CAN'T score, CAN'T make first downs, and CAN'T avoid turnovers when the game is on the line. I understand the O-line has been banged up as of late, but the playcalling, especially in the 4th quarter, has been atrocious.

[B]Folks, there is NFW the Redskins are making the playoffs this year.[/B] Even if they had held on to beat the Bills by two points...the BILLS...there is NFW they will beat the Bears, Giants, Vikings, and Cowboys if they continue to play as poorly as they have done this season. They only have two convincing wins...the MNF game against the Eagles and the blowout of the Lions after the bye week. The Dolphins and Jets, two of the worst teams in the league, took the Redskins to OT, and the Redskins only beat the Cardinals because of a last-second FG attempt by the Cards that sailed just barely wide left.

Sorry folks...I love the Redskins, and I always will...but they are at best a mediocre team right now. I'll be surprised if they actually win any more games this season...it's looking like 5-11 again this year, folks!

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

So we're just going to completely absolve the defense for that 30 yard pass to Reed before the field goal attempt? There were like 6 Redskins around him and not a single one can make a play on the ball? And that's ok?

And by the way the Cardinals are 6-6 and just beat the potentially playoff bound Browns. And the Jets beat the playoff bound Steelers. Point is, I'm tired of having to apologize for our victories. We're 5-7. Yes that sucks, but don't just discredit their wins because they weren't "impressive" enough for you.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote=Paintrain;388021]It's not the referee's job to educate a head coach on the rules.. It's like asking 'can I hold the DE if I get beat?' Sure you can hold him if you want, but I'm gonna flag you for holding.

Guys, no matter how we want to spin it, that was an unexcusable error. You have to know the rules, flat out.[/quote]

The ref shouldn't have responded then. Just seems odd that he would say yes, a little misleading if you ask me. Coaches ask refs for clarification of the rules all the time. Don't get me wrong Gibbs is still responsible, but it's still worth discussing why the ref told him yes.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;387982]Sorry if this has already been mentioned but what's up with the fact that Gibbs asked the ref if he could take back to back timeouts and the ref said yes??[/quote]

He should know the rule, period or his coaches should be in his ear. No excuse for that. I don't quite understand how we can side w/ JG's on this one, he blew it.

The ref may have answered the question, w/ yes you can call a timeout w/out adding the fact there is a penalty.

Their kicker probably would have made it anyhow.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;388044]So we're just going to completely absolve the defense for that 30 yard pass to Reed before the field goal attempt? There were like 6 Redskins around him and not a single one can make a play on the ball? And that's ok?

And by the way the Cardinals are 6-6 and just beat the potentially playoff bound Browns. And the Jets beat the playoff bound Steelers. Point is, I'm tired of having to apologize for our victories. We're 5-7. Yes that sucks, but don't just discredit their wins because they weren't "impressive" enough for you.[/quote]
While I agree that was a bad play but the D held the Bills to 15 points so it goes back on the O. I give Gibbs a "by" for that mistake but those three running plays before that was just very bad coaching. We could not run the ball all game and just needed one first down.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;388048]The ref shouldn't have responded then. Just seems odd that he would say yes, a little misleading if you ask me. Coaches ask refs for clarification of the rules all the time. Don't get me wrong Gibbs is still responsible, but it's still worth discussing why the ref told him yes.[/QUOTE]

I don't see why it's worth disucssing. It's not his job to educate coaches on the rules.. Asking for clarification is one thing, but asking on something absoulte is inexcusable.

Playing devils advocate, let's say Gibbs asked and the ref told him it was a penalty and he doesn't call it and Lindell missed the kick short. After the game, Gibbs says 'I was going to call the second timeout but the official reminded me it would be a 15 yard penalty so I didn't call it. Thanks to him, we probably won the game!' Can you imagine the firestorm coming out of Buffalo this morning? That's why the ref has to respond directly to the question asked, not offering anything more than 'yes, you can.'

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

I don't see what's wrong with asking a ref for clarification, again they do this all the time. Yes Gibbs should have known the rule, but if he wasn't clear and asked the ref and the ref says yes, you can call a time out, I think some blame has to be placed on the ref for misinforming the coach.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote=firstdown;388056]While I agree that was a bad play but the D held the Bills to 15 points so it goes back on the O. I give Gibbs a "by" for that mistake but those three running plays before that was just very bad coaching. We could not run the ball all game and just needed one first down.[/quote]

Amen. I blame the coaching and the O on this one. When it comes down to crunch time we're running the ball. Even when we've averaged 2 yards a carry.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

our D has not been able to stop the other team from scoring on the last drive for awhile now. we need them to come up with a defensive stands at vthe ends of games if we are going to win joe gibbs type football.

my brother thinks coach joe called the 2nd timeout on purpose to shoulder the blame and any criticism for the loss to protect the players from feeling like they let ST down. i said there is no way joe did that on a 51 yarder when there was still a chance at winning the game and providing a huge emnotional lift to this team.

whats more believable: joe goes out of his way to protect players from feeling like they let ST down or that he didnt know you cant call 2 timeouts in a row?

by the looks of the washington post it seems joe did a good job of attracting all the blame and criticism for the loss

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;388063]I don't see what's wrong with asking a ref for clarification, again they do this all the time. Yes Gibbs should have known the rule, but if he wasn't clear and asked the ref and the ref says yes, you can call a time out, I think some blame has to be placed on the ref for misinforming the coach.[/QUOTE]
We'll agree to disagree, the official has no culpability the way I see it.. Clarification is one thing, this rule doesn't leave any room to interpretation or clarification IMO-You can't call consecutive timeouts to freeze a kicker. Calling consecutive timeouts is unsportsmanlike conduct and will result in a 15 yard penalty. There's nothing vague or open to clarification there.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

Wouldn't surprise me for one second if he did that to take the blame off the players. Though I doubt that's what he did. I think he just had a mental lapse and forgot that the penalty had just recently changed.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

we just cant put up points man. it's just been the same old story now here for a while. even in our playoff run it didn't seem like we could score.

as far as gibbs 2.0, i mean i don't think there are any hard feelings, but it's just time to move on.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote=Paintrain;388072]We'll agree to disagree, the official has no culpability the way I see it.. Clarification is one thing, this rule doesn't leave any room to interpretation or clarification IMO-You can't call consecutive timeouts to freeze a kicker. Calling consecutive timeouts is unsportsmanlike conduct and will result in a 15 yard penalty. There's nothing vague or open to clarification there.[/quote]

If you are unsure of a rule and you ask a ref, and he gives you wrong info, I think there's some responsibility there.

Aren't the refs there to officiate the game and to properly interpret the rules of the game, and to communicate the rules to the players, coaches, and audience? I think a coach asking the ref about a rule would fall under that level of responsibility.

I just find it odd and a little disturbing that Gibbs may have been given wrong info that led to a critical mistake.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

I'd like to point out that with the way Lindell hit that 36 yarder to win, that thing would have gone through from 60+. That kick went right down the center and it hadn't started to come down once it reached the goalposts. And he grooved the first 51 yarder that didn't end up counting.

I think he would have nailed it from 51. Hearing Gibbs say that he probably cost the team the game, I don't think that's true. At least not with the timeout decision.

However I do think his game management is horrible, and he's not showing any ability to learn from mistake after mistake. I don't like the conservative nature late in games either.

I'm all for continuity, so keep Saunders as the OC and keep Gregg Williams as the head coach. I doubt Bugel would stay if Gibbs goes, so we'd need an O-Line coach. But someone else needs to be making these decisions and setting the tone. Gibbs is doing a horrible job.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

here's my take on the whole Gibbs return. too many question around who is making what decisions. next season, coach Gibbs goes back, like old school, and calls all the shots. that way, if the ship sinks( or swims) we all know directly who is responsible. either he basks in the redskins sucess, or drowns in there failures. but its all on him

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote=dmek25;388089]here's my take on the whole Gibbs return. too many question around who is making what decisions. next season, coach Gibbs goes back, like old school, and calls all the shots. that way, if the ship sinks( or swims) we all know directly who is responsible. either he basks in the redskins sucess, or drowns in there failures. but its all on him[/quote]

If he's allowing others to make decisions now (like Saunders or Williams or whoever), then it all falls on him anyway.

It sounds almost like you're suggesting Gibbs is allowing the inmates to run the asylum right now. That's grounds for getting canned in my opinion.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote]Wouldn't surprise me for one second if he did that to take the blame off the players.[/quote]

If this is the case then Joe is farther gone than I even imagined. Giving a 15 yard penalty to make his players feel better? Come on! The kick he hit would have gone through from 51, no doubt. But more things come into play at 51, a good wind, you kick it differently when you're concerned about power, etc. Did the two TOs directly cost us the game? Probably not, it's just one of many stupid mistakes I'm sick of seeing.

Don't worry SmootSmack -- your anger is just one of the stages to acceptance.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

There's no way Gibbs would have did that on purpose. The odds are much better for missing a 51 yard FG vs. a 36 yard attempt. To basically throw away the game to take pressure off the players is totally ridiculous.

Re: Who called the 2nd timeout?
 

[quote=Schneed10;388083]I'd like to point out that with the way Lindell hit that 36 yarder to win, that thing would have gone through from 60+. That kick went right down the center and it hadn't started to come down once it reached the goalposts. And he grooved the first 51 yarder that didn't end up counting.

I think he would have nailed it from 51. Hearing Gibbs say that he probably cost the team the game, I don't think that's true. At least not with the timeout decision.

However I do think his game management is horrible, and he's not showing any ability to learn from mistake after mistake. I don't like the conservative nature late in games either.

I'm all for continuity, so keep Saunders as the OC and keep Gregg Williams as the head coach. I doubt Bugel would stay if Gibbs goes, so we'd need an O-Line coach. But someone else needs to be making these decisions and setting the tone. Gibbs is doing a horrible job.[/quote]

I agree. Gibbs is doing and has been doing a horrible job. I'd like to see GW b/c our head coach. JG consistenly puts the game in the hands of the defense. You can't do that and consistently win unless your the 85 Bears d or the 00 ravens (i think). I've just had enough of watching the same game over and over for 4 years. It's like the Norv years. Yes, i said it.