Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=angryssg;429858]What about that kid from Boston College at Strong Safety 4th or 5th round?[/quote]

Silva has great ball skills but he looks like a LB trapped at SS
He also ran like a LB at 4.8

I would pass on him

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;429829]Overall strength is definitely a significant factor that needs to be considered in evaluating a guy's ability to play and beat press coverage. Especially a bigger guy who is not tremendously fast or quick.[/quote]

Trust me. It's not that important. When Jared Allen of KC did his bench press, I think he only did 12-13 reps. And he's a top pass rushing DE in the NFL. He sure doesn't have a problem bulling over 300+ pound LT's does he? Charles Haley, one of the best pure pass rushers in his time NEVER EVER lifted weights. Randy Moss doesn't lift weights. Yet guys like Adam Archeletta can probably bench 225 a gazillion times yet he sucks at playing his position. In the end, it comes down to a guy's ability to play football.

Also there are so many other excerises that coming into play when it comes to football. Power clean, squats, hack squats, and dumbell presses. Bench pressing is just one small piece when testing a guy's overall strength.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;429864]Trust me. It's not that important. When Jared Allen of KC did his bench press, I think he only did 12-13 reps. And he's a top pass rushing DE in the NFL. He sure doesn't have a problem bulling over 300+ pound LT's does he? Charles Haley, one of the best pure pass rushers in his time NEVER EVER lifted weights. Randy Moss doesn't lift weights. Yet guys like Adam Archeletta can probably bench 225 a gazillion times yet he sucks at playing his position. In the end, it comes down to a guy's ability to play football.

Also there are so many other excerises that coming into play when it comes to football. Power clean, squats, hack squats, and dumbell presses. Bench pressing is just one small piece when testing a guy's overall strength.[/QUOTE]

That was a long time ago,, and it took a long tim ebefore J Allen got any good.

The only thing that his bench reps show me is that he is a slacker. You can't be at a D-1 school for more than 3 years and comeout doing that. He couldn't have been serious in the weight room, so what makes you think he is gonna be serious when he is getting paid.

He will just be a 6-6 version of B Lloyd.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=30gut;429833]In the Red Zone speed is still an essential factor in gaining separation from the defender to get open. (separation is not just vertical, but horizontal also)[/quote] Thanks for the Offense 101.

[quote=30gut;429833]*Also you don't have to pass to score in the Red Zone. If we must throw to a 'big' receiver we can always split Cooley out wide.[/quote]
Cooley is not out-jumping many NFL CBs. I don't recall him scoring on any fades since he's been here.

[quote=30gut;429833]I think people forget the majority of productive receivers in the NFL are under 6'2 and they still seem to score inside the 20 and even inside the 10 (oh my!) and on the goalline.

Bengals- T.J. Housh- 6'1 199
Chad Johnson- 6'1 192
Colts- Gonzalez, A - 6'0 193
Harrison, M - 6'0 185
Wayne, R - 6'0 198
Pats- Welker, W - 5'9 185
Steeler-Ward,H - 6'0 205

This list is just some of the AFC teams. Should I continue?[/quote]Let's discuss, the stats are all this regular season. First, 6' 1" is not small. Not a "Big receiver" but not small and both Houz & Johnson are threats on a fade, which give them the option to run the slant more effectively (reinforcing my point).

Houz - 12 Total TDs. 2 - Between 10-20, 6 - Inside 10. Of the 6 inside the 10, 4 were inside routes.
Johnson - 8 Total TDs. 1 between 10-20, 4 - Inside 10. 2 were inside routes.
Wayne - 10 Total TDs. 0 - Between 10-20, 4 Inside 10. 2 were inside routes.
Gonzalez only scored 3 TDs all year, none in the Red Zone.
Harrison - obviously injured, but his numbers are normally similar to Wayne's.
Welker - Didn't he have Randy Moss on the outside to open things up inside?
Hines Ward - Too lazy to check.

My point is that the smaller receivers aren't usually beating the D on outside routes especially in the Red Zone. And especially in the case of Welker, look what a big receiver that can run a fade does to help the smaller, quicker guys. Steve Smith begged for Keyshawn in Carolina and Key wasn't out-running anyone at that point in his career. Again to my point....Balance.

[quote=30gut;429833]Extra note: those 'West Coast Offense' teams Green Bay, Seattle, Tampa Bay all their receivers are short dudes[/quote]Hackett is 6'2". M. Clayton is 6'4" & Stovall is 6'5" in TB.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;429864]Trust me. It's not that important. When Jared Allen of KC did his bench press, I think he only did 12-13 reps. And he's a top pass rushing DE in the NFL. He sure doesn't have a problem bulling over 300+ pound LT's does he? Charles Haley, one of the best pure pass rushers in his time NEVER EVER lifted weights. Randy Moss doesn't lift weights. Yet guys like Adam Archeletta can probably bench 225 a gazillion times yet he sucks at playing his position. In the end, it comes down to a guy's ability to play football.
[/quote]
Trust me it is that important. SkinsfanSince1991 also brings up a great point about work ethic. Bench is the fastest way to determine overall upper body strength. If it didn't mean anything why do it. The scouts and coaches that get paid a bunch of $$$ to evaluate talent must think it's important or they wouldn't do it at the combine. Also, guys who bench poorly wouldn't see their draft stock drop.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=-2][COLOR=#000000][B][SIZE=2]Trevor laws, Here's and example of a guy taking his career seriously and displaying a great work ethic. If a guy like Marcus Monk or Calais Campbell wanted to put up averge bench press #'s for their positions they could have trained for it. The fact that they were so far behind shows a lack of preparation and committment.[/SIZE] [/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=-2][COLOR=#000000][B]02/25/08[/B] - Trevor Laws turned on the jets during his senior 2007 season, and continued his ascension into the top 60 in Indianapolis on Monday. Although many people criticize the Combine as "guys in shorts," the relentless Laws stood out through during drills and tests. Teams saw that he can not only explode upfield, but also provide good lateral movement, body control and the ability to close on the ball. His 40s were in the 5.05-5.10 range, as expected, but the [B]Golden Domer also showed good upper body strength on the bench press on Sunday.[/B] - Chad Reuter, NFLDraftScout.com [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=-2][COLOR=#000000][B]02/20/08[/B] - [B]In two months, Trevor Laws has undergone a total-body overhaul worthy of a late-night infomercial. Between lost body fat and increased weight, he has added about 30 pounds of lean muscle. He said he has bench-pressed 225 pounds, the NFL industry standard, 31 times. He sometimes works out three times a day, always eats five times a day. The change is complete.[/B] For all his trouble, the former Notre Dame defensive tackle has become an 85-year-old man. "Me and my girlfriend are probably laying down at 8:30 every night," Laws said. "My dad is making fun of me, saying I go to bed earlier than him now." Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and ... well, that's potentially enough. Despite his team's 3-9 implosion last fall, perhaps no one on Notre Dame's roster helped himself more than Laws, who returned for a fifth season almost specifically to barrel his way onto the NFL radar screen. His team-high 112 tackles were the first step. Now the endgame to Laws' gambit is nigh at the NFL combine. "I really wish we had a winning season," Laws said. "Besides that, I'm healthy, I had a great year, a good Senior Bowl. To this point, things have pretty much gone as good as they can go for me." - Brian Hamilton, Chicago Tribune[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][SIZE=-2][COLOR=#000000][B]02/11/08[/B] - PRO POTENTIAL: DT Trevor Laws moved up the draft boards last season with his all-out effort and his knack for being around the ball. He will be looked at inside by the NFL, and he showed at the Senior Bowl an ability to penetrate with technique and quickness. [B]A good character guy who could be a third-rounder.[/B] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=DGreene28;429857]Would have to see who else was on the board, I would take James Hardy if he was there before him. I like Kenny Phillips too but Safety is something we can address later, I like Zbikowski from ND in the 4th round[/quote]

he wont make it to the fourth, and we don't have a 4th round pick. he'd be a great 3rd round pick though. just like trevor laws would be a great 2nd rounder.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;429864]Trust me. It's not that important. When Jared Allen of KC did his bench press, I think he only did 12-13 reps. And he's a top pass rushing DE in the NFL. He sure doesn't have a problem bulling over 300+ pound LT's does he? Charles Haley, one of the best pure pass rushers in his time NEVER EVER lifted weights. Randy Moss doesn't lift weights. Yet guys like Adam Archeletta can probably bench 225 a gazillion times yet he sucks at playing his position. In the end, it comes down to a guy's ability to play football.

Also there are so many other excerises that coming into play when it comes to football. Power clean, squats, hack squats, and dumbell presses. Bench pressing is just one small piece when testing a guy's overall strength.[/quote]

Jared Allen: "[B]He has improved his ability to play with leverage at the point of attack, but[/B] [B]he still does not have great strength. He is the type of player who has to win with quickness. When an offensive tackle gets his hands on him, Allen struggles to shed quickly and make plays at the left offensive side. He is not real explosive in terms of his quickness or his strength. [/B]Overall, he is a solid defensive end who gives 100 percent effort every time he steps onto the football field. . "

Allen and Haley are speed rushers so upper body strength is not a prerequisite for thier success. Moss is a guy who beats you down the sidelines with his speed and jumps over you, again strength not as important. Most players who don't have this fast twitch athleticism need to have the brute strength in oreder to compete.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

The only position that bench doesnt mean squat at is Punter, Kicker, and QB.

But even as a QB, bench press tells them how strong one can stand in the pocket and not get draged down by tacklers like Drew Bledsoe, Brad Johnson, etc..

Brady Quinn did 24 reps last year

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;429877]Trust me it is that important. SkinsfanSince1991 also brings up a great point about work ethic. Bench is the fastest way to determine overall upper body strength. If it didn't mean anything why do it. The scouts and coaches that get paid a bunch of $$$ to evaluate talent must think it's important or they wouldn't do it at the combine. Also, guys who bench poorly wouldn't see their draft stock drop.[/quote]

Not to sound like an expert but I lift 6 days a week, I'm 6'2 and weigh 235lbs. I train every body part twice a week and I did play football. I've built my chest up by rarely bench pressing. I prefer dumbell presses, dumbell fly's, dips, incline pushups and hammer strength machines. I never ever bench press because it's too hard on my delts and you get a better stretch in your chest using dumbells. If you saw me on the street you'd think I could bench 225 25 times but I can probably only do it 7-9 times. Just cause I can't bench a ton does that make me have a weak upper body. Why don't these guys test for squats? Lower body strength is more important for football than upperbody. To me the combine is just a waste of time.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=SkinsFanSince91;429897]The only position that bench doesnt mean squat at is Punter, Kicker, and QB.

But even as a QB, bench press tells them how strong one can stand in the pocket and not get draged down by tacklers like Drew Bledsoe, Brad Johnson, etc..

Brady Quinn did 24 reps last year[/quote]

So do you need to be a strong bench press guy to play RB and safety? Cause Sean Taylor (RIP) never ever lifted weights. He prefered to do more cardio and endurance training. Yet he had no problem getting guys on the ground. Portis isn't a big weight room guy either. I saw Portis one time down at the Georgetown Waterfront a few years ago. He doesn't have a big upper body. I bet he can't lift 225 10 times. But he was wearing shorts and he had some serious tree trunk thighs. I couldn't believe how big his legs were. So to me, when it comes to being a good football player, bench pressing is just waaaaay over rated.

Also, standing strong in the pocket has more to do with your legs and balance, rather than upper body strength.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;429943]Not to sound like an expert but I lift 6 days a week, I'm 6'2 and weigh 235lbs. I train every body part twice a week and I did play football. I've built my chest up by rarely bench pressing. I prefer dumbell presses, dumbell fly's, dips, incline pushups and hammer strength machines. I never ever bench press because it's too hard on my delts and you get a better stretch in your chest using dumbells. If you saw me on the street you'd think I could bench 225 25 times but I can probably only do it 7-9 times. Just cause I can't bench a ton does that make me have a weak upper body. Why don't these guys test for squats? Lower body strength is more important for football than upperbody. To me the combine is just a waste of time.[/quote]
I'm no expert either and I've been out of lifting for a while. But I was a regular in the gym and played/coached competitively after high school too. I'm not arguing that bench is the sole indicator of upper body strength. But it gives you a general idea compared to other prospects. I agree with you, they should definitely test squats at the combine. I totally disagree though about the combine being a waste of time, the teams are trying to get a total picture of each prospect and the combine is critical to get a physical baseline.

I guess I should clarify my point on Monk, I'm not just discounting him because of his poor bench. But he isn't tremendously fast, and was widely regarded as a lower level pick even before the combine. He didn't WOW anyone in college or he would be more highly rated.

I was arguing with jsarno about our needs and I just don't see this guy as filling a need when we have two other young big WRs with NFL experience that [B]may[/B] develop. And we really need some young depth at other more critical positions so I can't see using a pick on him. If we can bring him in as a FA, fine take a look at him, just don't spend a pick on him.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;429951]So do you need to be a strong bench press guy to play RB and safety? Cause Sean Taylor (RIP) never ever lifted weights. He prefered to do more cardio and endurance training. Yet he had no problem getting guys on the ground. Portis isn't a big weight room guy either. I saw Portis one time down at the Georgetown Waterfront a few years ago. He doesn't have a big upper body. I bet he can't lift 225 10 times. But he was wearing shorts and he had some serious tree trunk thighs. I couldn't believe how big his legs were. So to me, when it comes to being a good football player, bench pressing is just waaaaay over rated.

Also, standing strong in the pocket has more to do with your legs and balance, rather than upper body strength.[/quote]


Good point Sean Tayor, (RIP) lifted 225 11 times at the Miami pro day and he was the best ever... Compared to the safeties at the combine this year he would be near the bottom. I think the combine has it's posities and negatives. Teams get more out to the meet and greet part of it then anything else. With all the running players do at the combine they'll never do squats

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[QUOTE=DGreene28;429965][b]Good point Sean Tayor, (RIP) lifted 225 11 times[/b] at the Miami pro day and he was the best ever... Compared to the safeties at the combine this year he would be near the bottom. I think the combine has it's posities and negatives. Teams get more out to the meet and greet part of it then anything else. With all the running players do at the combine they'll never do squats[/QUOTE]

EXCELLENT point, and no one questioned his toughness. He was one of the hardest hitting safties I have ever seen.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=jsarno;430058]EXCELLENT point, and no one questioned his toughness. He was one of the hardest hitting safties I have ever seen.[/quote]

Not tryin to make this a Taylor thread, but this description of Sean was written by one of the editors of Pro Football Weekly a few weeks before the '04 draft. I'll miss this dude:

PFW associate editor Ken Bikoff
[B]Miami (Fla.) S Sean Taylor
[/B]Guys like Eli Manning and Larry Fitzgerald may get all the attention in the days leading up to the draft, but it is Taylor who really created the buzz at the Combine and will become the newest superstar in the NFL. Taylor’s buzz was different from the kind of murmur that accompanied RB Maurice Clarett. The talk about Taylor was about just how relentless he is. His own teammates at Miami said they had to be sure where he was on the field at all times just so they wouldn’t get run over, and Taylor was already being compared to Ronnie Lott by some experts. That’s about the highest praise a safety can get coming out of college, and Taylor’s mix of intensity and speed will make him the next great safety in the NFL.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;429951]So do you need to be a strong bench press guy to play RB and safety? Cause Sean Taylor (RIP) never ever lifted weights. He prefered to do more cardio and endurance training. Yet he had no problem getting guys on the ground. Portis isn't a big weight room guy either. I saw Portis one time down at the Georgetown Waterfront a few years ago. He doesn't have a big upper body. I bet he can't lift 225 10 times. But he was wearing shorts and he had some serious tree trunk thighs. I couldn't believe how big his legs were. So to me, when it comes to being a good football player, bench pressing is just waaaaay over rated.

Also, standing strong in the pocket has more to do with your legs and balance, rather than upper body strength.[/quote]

LT is kind of like that. Diesel strong legs but not a particularly impressive upper body.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

Slingin Sammy 33 Said:

Let's discuss, the stats are all this regular season. First, 6' 1" is not small. Not a "Big receiver" but not small and both Houz & Johnson are threats on a fade, which give them the option to run the slant more effectively (reinforcing my point).

Houz - 12 Total TDs. 2 - Between 10-20, 6 - Inside 10. Of the 6 inside the 10, 4 were inside routes.
Johnson - 8 Total TDs. 1 between 10-20, 4 - Inside 10. 2 were inside routes.
Wayne - 10 Total TDs. 0 - Between 10-20, 4 Inside 10. 2 were inside routes.
Gonzalez only scored 3 TDs all year, none in the Red Zone.
Harrison - obviously injured, but his numbers are normally similar to Wayne's.
Welker - Didn't he have Randy Moss on the outside to open things up inside?
Hines Ward - Too lazy to check.

My point is that the smaller receivers aren't usually beating the D on outside routes especially in the Red Zone. And especially in the case of Welker, look what a big receiver that can run a fade does to help the smaller, quicker guys. Steve Smith begged for Keyshawn in Carolina and Key wasn't out-running anyone at that point in his career. Again to my point....Balance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay your new point:

My point is that the smaller receivers aren't usually beating the D on outside routes especially in the Red Zone.


:confused:That's why we should get Monk (great name) a 'Big' receiver. Despite his lack of speed, and injuries, and limited production (possibly due to the run first nature of the school)

Maybe its b/c fade patterns are cooler than slants patterns, Or maybe its the lasting image of Burress's fade pattern in the superbowl. I don't know. But last time i checked a touchdown via fade isn't any better than a touchdown from a slant.

If there are more good receivers under 6'1 then over 6'1 how can a 'big' receiver be a necessity?


You said:
First, 6' 1" is not small. Not a "Big receiver" but not small and both Houz & Johnson are threats on a fade, which give them the option to run the slant more effectively (reinforcing my point).


So here are some receivers regardless of size that i think would be decent draft picks:
(Maybe we should start a thread about the 'Big' receiver vs Regular receiver concept):)

Andre Caldwell, Florida
Height: 6-0. Weight: 204.
Projected 40 Time: 4.36.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: . Broad .
Projected Round: 2-3.

William Franklin, Missouri
Height: 6-0. Weight: 214.
Projected 40 Time: 4.40.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: 34.5. Broad .
Projected Round: 3-4.

Jerome Simpson, Coastal Carolina
Height: 6-1. Weight: 190.
Projected 40 Time: 4.46.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: 37.5. Broad 11-4.
Projected Round: 4.

Dexter Jackson, Appalachian State (Smaller receiver but fast as hell)
[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=GeuCmr5dfns]YouTube - #2 WR Dexter Jackson Catches[/url]
Height: 5-9. Weight: 185. Projected 40 Time: 4.33.
Combine 40 Time: 4.37.
Vertical: . Broad .
Projected Round: 4-5.

*A Local kid*
Arman Shields, Richmond
Height: 6-0. Weight: 194.
Projected 40 Time: 4.44.
Combine 40 Time: 4.44.
Vertical: 37.5. Broad 10.8.
Projected Round: 7.

Re: The Official draft Marcus Monk thread.
 

dexter jackson is probably the best value WR/KR in the draft. i'd definitely be up on him in the 5th, but he might go at the end of the 3rd... maybe our comp pick...