Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452443]That sounds an awful lot like saying:

Because kids grew up in a broken home, they should continue to be treated as children once they are 18 years old, because they never learned to be a responsible adult.

I don't buy it. By the time you hit 18, your free pass expires. You're expected to be responsible and make wise choices.[/quote]

No I'm not saying that at all, it's not the black and white issue you seem to be trying to make it. I don't think anyone deserves a free pass because of their past, but it's definitely a reason to keep in mind why some people make the decisions that they do. It's easy for someone from a solid background to sit here and say the things that you are saying.

Of course someone can be expected to make wise choices, but when you've never been shown the way to make wise choices, it kind of complicates things a bit.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452443]That sounds an awful lot like saying:

Because kids grew up in a broken home, they should continue to be treated as children once they are 18 years old, because they never learned to be a responsible adult.

I don't buy it. By the time you hit 18, your free pass expires. You're expected to be responsible and make wise choices.[/quote]

No, it's not. It's saying that many kids who grow up in broken homes [U]did not receive the guidance[/U] necessary to be responsible and make wise choices.

There's no question that responsibility and decision making are learned behaviors - just look across the different cultures at what the social norm comprises.

If someone is trying to break the cycle and take responsibility, but is unable to do so due to bad choices made in the absence of a socially acceptable moral framework that was not of their doing, how is it [U]not[/U] the government's responsibility to help them?

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;452507]No I'm not saying that at all, it's not the black and white issue you seem to be trying to make it. I don't think anyone deserves a free pass because of their past, but it's definitely a reason to keep in mind why some people make the decisions that they do. It's easy for someone from a solid background to sit here and say the things that you are saying.

Of course someone can be expected to make wise choices, but when you've never been shown the way to make wise choices, it kind of complicates things a bit.[/QUOTE]

I believe that some people perceive that the "government is not the solution, it's the problem" crowd has an oppressive, people be damned mentality. But, speaking at least for myself, that is not the case. These programs that help "show people the way", are undoubtedly important. But I believe it should be exactly, to show them the way so they can go it alone next time (or sometime in the future). It's akin to the "buy a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach him to fish and he'll eat for life" mantra. I understand though, that for some people they will never be in position to go it alone. But I believe, perhaps naively, those cases are not as frequent nor as numerous as we tend to think.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=SmootSmack;452513]I believe that some people perceive that the "government is not the solution, it's the problem" crowd has an oppressive, people be damned mentality. But, speaking at least for myself, that is not the case. These programs that help "show people the way", are undoubtedly important. But I believe it should be exactly, to show them the way so they can go it alone next time (or sometime in the future). It's akin to the "buy a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach him to fish and he'll eat for life" mantra. I understand though, that for some people they will never be in position to go it alone. But I believe, perhaps naively, those cases are not as frequent nor as numerous as we tend to think.[/quote]
But that's exactly what subsidized after-school care for people working full-time is - "a handup, not a handout". It's not a check from the feds to be spent on the parents at the expense of the kids. It's a way for people looking to provide for their family who don't want to put their kids on the street at 2:30p every day.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=SmootSmack;452513]I believe that some people perceive that the "government is not the solution, it's the problem" crowd has an oppressive, people be damned mentality. But, speaking at least for myself, that is not the case. These programs that help "show people the way", are undoubtedly important. But I believe it should be exactly, to show them the way so they can go it alone next time (or sometime in the future). It's akin to the "buy a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach him to fish and he'll eat for life" mantra. I understand though, that for some people they will never be in position to go it alone. But I believe, perhaps naively, those cases are not as frequent nor as numerous as we tend to think.[/quote]

I totally agree. I'm not saying the gov't needs to "take care" of these people for the rest of their lives, I just think some people need a helping hand at times and should receive the help they need.

The fact is our social services programs stink and they don't address the root problems. But that's a problem with lack of funding and with our society at large that tends to be reactive rather than proactive. Until the root issues are addressed we'll always have these problems, it's just an endless cycle.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Mattyk72;452516]I totally agree. I'm not saying the gov't needs to "take care" of these people for the rest of their lives, I just think some people need a helping hand at times and should receive the help they need.

The fact is our social services programs stink and they don't address the root problems. But that's a problem with lack of funding and with our society at large that tends to be reactive rather than proactive. Until the root issues are addressed we'll always have these problems, it's just an endless cycle.[/quote]
Lets be honest and say what the real problem is. Its the parents and the lack of guidence, having children they cannot afford, signle parent families, etc... Just yeasterday here in our area a parent worked really hard to get parents together (in a low income area) to form a new PTA for their local school. Three other parents showed up on Monday night and this is a school with over 1,000 students. Thats the real problem and the problem within our schools These are not problems that the federal goverment can correct they are problems within each community which can only be fixed within the community. We have allready spent billions and all it has done is aided this behavior. If Obama is serious about chang then maybe we need to start holding the parents more accountable for their childrens action or lact of actions.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=firstdown;452528]Lets be honest and say what the real problem is. Its the parents and the lack of guidence, having children they cannot afford, signle parent families, etc... Just yeasterday here in our area a parent worked really hard to get parents together (in a low income area) to form a new PTA for their local school. Three other parents showed up on Monday night and this is a school with over 1,000 students. Thats the real problem and the problem within our schools [B]These are not problems that the federal goverment can correct they are problems within each community which can only be fixed within the community.[/B] We have allready spent billions and all it has done is aided this behavior. If Obama is serious about chang then maybe we need to start holding the parents more accountable for their childrens action or lact of actions.[/quote]

How is that going to happen exactly?

If the gov't isn't helping how is a community supposed to fix things on their own? The gov't has to play a role somewhere along the way in terms of funding and social service programs.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=firstdown;452528]Lets be honest and say what the real problem is. Its the parents and the lack of guidence, having children they cannot afford, signle parent families, etc... Just yeasterday here in our area a parent worked really hard to get parents together (in a low income area) to form a new PTA for their local school. Three other parents showed up on Monday night and this is a school with over 1,000 students. Thats the real problem and the problem within our schools These are not problems that the federal goverment can correct they are problems within each community which can only be fixed within the community. We have allready spent billions and all it has done is aided this behavior. If Obama is serious about chang then maybe we need to start holding the parents more accountable for their childrens action or lact of actions.[/quote]
ever think some of those parents are working second shift? or working 2 jobs? not everyone that is down, wants to be down. alot of these people are good, decent people. but it is a very hard cycle to break. yes, it can be broken, but it sometimes starts with a helping hand. remember, most of the decisions these people are making, are the same ones they have learned from their parents.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Mattyk72;452507]No I'm not saying that at all, it's not the black and white issue you seem to be trying to make it. I don't think anyone deserves a free pass because of their past, but it's definitely a reason to keep in mind why some people make the decisions that they do. It's easy for someone from a solid background to sit here and say the things that you are saying.

Of course someone can be expected to make wise choices, but when you've never been shown the way to make wise choices, it kind of complicates things a bit.[/quote]

I get what you're saying, and for the record I am for the idea of providing after-care to kids from low-income households. It's about the kids first and foremost.

But regarding the general discussion, do you really think you're 100% the product of your environment and upbringing? I don't, I think my parents provided guidance and tremendous support, which is a big part of getting a solid start in life. But at the same time, I also think I'm my own man. I've learned some things from my parents, but other things and decisions they'd make I totally disagree with. And I'd do it a different way. The difference is, no matter what decisions I make, I would never expect my parents to accept any responsibility for a bad decision I made. I grew up to make my own decisions. They guided me, but in the end, I OWN my decisions. And I'll stand by and accept the consequences of all of them.

I expect EVERYONE to do the same, regardless of upbringing. Be your own man and don't cop out.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=dmek25;452536]ever think some of those parents are working second shift? or working 2 jobs? not everyone that is down, wants to be down. alot of these people are good, decent people. but it is a very hard cycle to break. yes, it can be broken, but it sometimes starts with a helping hand. remember, most of the decisions these people are making, are the same ones they have learned from their parents.[/quote]
Yea, out of a 1,000 students all but three where working at their second job. Funny thing is the lady that is working so hard to form the PTA and trying to get parents involved is finding the time working THREE jobs. Your kind of thinking and making excuses for these people is part of the problem. I'm not saying your totaly wrong and that maybe some were working at there second job. This lady had notices out one month prior to their first meeting so thats still not a good excuse. By reading your post and others I think we all agree that these children need help because their parents are not doing their job its how they are helped we disagree on.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452542]I get what you're saying, and for the record I am for the idea of providing after-care to kids from low-income households. It's about the kids first and foremost.

[B]But regarding the general discussion, do you really think you're 100% the product of your environment and upbringing?[/B] I don't, I think my parents provided guidance and tremendous support, which is a big part of getting a solid start in life. But at the same time, I also think I'm my own man. I've learned some things from my parents, but other things and decisions they'd make I totally disagree with. And I'd do it a different way. The difference is, no matter what decisions I make, I would never expect my parents to accept any responsibility for a bad decision I made. I grew up to make my own decisions. They guided me, but in the end, I OWN my decisions. And I'll stand by and accept the consequences of all of them.

I expect EVERYONE to do the same, regardless of upbringing. Be your own man and don't cop out.[/quote]

100%? No. But I'm not going to even venture a guess or try to assign a percentage as to how much your environment and upbringing contributes. I would say that it's [I]very[/I] critical though.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=firstdown;452543]Yea, out of a 1,000 students all but three where working at their second job. Funny thing is the lady that is working so hard to form the PTA and trying to get parents involved is finding the time working THREE jobs. Your kind of thinking and making excuses for these people is part of the problem. I'm not saying your totaly wrong and that maybe some were working at there second job. This lady had notices out one month prior to their first meeting so thats still not a good excuse. By reading your post and others I think we all agree that these children need help because their parents are not doing their job its how they are helped we disagree on.[/quote]

Good response.

Second jobs and late night shifts can explain SOME of the absences. But 3 parents out of 1000? That simply shows a lack of involvement and total apathy. Lord knows, the only way to get a school board or administration to make ANY changes at all is to get the parents in an uproar.

Principals and teachers are people. People like and are used to the status quo. If you don't do something to break the inertia, the status quo will remain in effect. No amount of government funding is ever going to change that.

The only way to get schools to change is for the parents to organize and be a pain in the ass so large that it makes change the easier option for the school to deal with. You have to make the school choose between dealing with change, or dealing with the pissed off parents. They'll simply take the path of least resistance. It's human nature, it works in business, in politics, in schools, when you call up your phone company screaming for customer service... everywhere.

And if you have 3 people showing up for a PTA meeting, you're not going to change anything.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Mattyk72;452534]How is that going to happen exactly?

If the gov't isn't helping how is a community supposed to fix things on their own? The gov't has to play a role somewhere along the way in terms of funding and social service programs.[/quote]
Well first I'm not saying do away with all federal programs but I don't want to add another program. Well the money used by the federal goverment came from people in the communities that they send the money back to for programs. The problem is the federal goverment eats away at the money because we have to pay for all those buildings and employees to process the money we send to them which they send back. That really makes good sense. So now that 4 dollars comes back as 1 dollar (thats just an example but I'm sure it not off by much). Maybe the federal goverment could just leave the money in the local goverment so they could provide the right services need for their area.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452542]I get what you're saying, and for the record I am for the idea of providing after-care to kids from low-income households. It's about the kids first and foremost.

But regarding the general discussion, do you really think you're 100% the product of your environment and upbringing? I don't, I think my parents provided guidance and tremendous support, which is a big part of getting a solid start in life. But at the same time, I also think I'm my own man. I've learned some things from my parents, but other things and decisions they'd make I totally disagree with. And I'd do it a different way. The difference is, no matter what decisions I make, I would never expect my parents to accept any responsibility for a bad decision I made. I grew up to make my own decisions. They guided me, but in the end, I OWN my decisions. And I'll stand by and accept the consequences of all of them.

I expect EVERYONE to do the same, regardless of upbringing. Be your own man and don't cop out.[/quote]

Your parents provided you with a foundation, and you use that foundation to make rational choices. Take away the foundation, and it's like asking a 10 year old to read a 200 page book without ever teaching him how to read - it just isn't going to work out well in most cases. Then you blame the kid for falling behind in school.

You can't just assume away the lack of guidance in upbringing.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=firstdown;452549]Well first I'm not saying do away with all federal programs but I don't want to add another program. Well the money used by the federal goverment came from people in the communities that they send the money back to for programs. The problem is the federal goverment eats away at the money because we have to pay for all those buildings and employees to process the money we send to them which they send back. That really makes good sense. So now that 4 dollars comes back as 1 dollar (thats just an example but I'm sure it not off by much). Maybe the federal goverment could just leave the money in the local goverment so they could provide the right services need for their area.[/quote]

Which program was it that you don't want to add? I'm asking seriously - the thread is getting long, so it's hard to keep up.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=SmootSmack;452513]I believe that some people perceive that the "government is not the solution, it's the problem" crowd has an oppressive, people be damned mentality. But, speaking at least for myself, that is not the case. These programs that help "show people the way", are undoubtedly important. But I believe it should be exactly, to show them the way so they can go it alone next time (or sometime in the future). It's akin to the "buy a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach him to fish and he'll eat for life" mantra. I understand though, that for some people they will never be in position to go it alone. [B]But I believe, perhaps naively, those cases are not as frequent nor as numerous as we tend to think.[/B][/quote]

These people are 36.5 million strong according to the latest [URL="http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf"]Census Bureau numbers[/URL] (p. 19). Right now they're having to make decision whether to eat or put gas in the tank and while you and I can go to the grocery store and buy what we want they are increasingly unable to afford basic food ([URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/31/us/31foodstamps.html?_r=1"]28 million Americans[/URL] on food stamps).

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Mattyk72;452546]100%? No. But I'm not going to even venture a guess or try to assign a percentage as to how much your environment and upbringing contributes. I would say that it's [I]very[/I] critical though.[/quote]

And I would say if people are not willing to take 100% responsibility for their actions and decisions, and instead choose to place blame on others, they're not worth helping.

Anyone who recognizes that their actions put them in a bad situation, they've probably learned from it. And I'm all for helping them. Take the mortgage crisis. If people weren't properly educated by lenders that their payments will increase in 5 years when the adjustable term expires, and they now realize that they needed to ask more questions and be more scrutinizing when acquiring financing, then I'm all for helping to bail them out. But if people want to point fingers at the lenders and call themselves a victim, that indicates a person who is likely to repeat the same mistake.

In order to truly learn from a bad decision, you have to recognize the ways in which you could have prevented the bad decision from being made. In the case of mortgages, the realization has to be that next time I'm going to be mindful of all the ways in which my monthly payment can potentially change.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452547]Good response.

Second jobs and late night shifts can explain SOME of the absences. But 3 parents out of 1000? That simply shows a lack of involvement and total apathy. Lord knows, the only way to get a school board or administration to make ANY changes at all is to get the parents in an uproar.

Principals and teachers are people. People like and are used to the status quo. If you don't do something to break the inertia, the status quo will remain in effect. No amount of government funding is ever going to change that.

The only way to get schools to change is for the parents to organize and be a pain in the ass so large that it makes change the easier option for the school to deal with. You have to make the school choose between dealing with change, or dealing with the pissed off parents. They'll simply take the path of least resistance. It's human nature, it works in business, in politics, in schools, when you call up your phone company screaming for customer service... everywhere.

And if you have 3 people showing up for a PTA meeting, you're not going to change anything.[/quote]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]You speak of environment not playing or even a minimal roll in a person’s success is absurd. If you are growing up in an environment where education is not regarded you most likely are not going to care about it. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]If you had to put your money on who will succeed in life, would it be the child born and raised in McLean or the child born and raised in inner city DC. Not saying the DC kid won’t make it but the odds are stacked against him. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Also you speak of making the right decisions, which is true but explain to me what decision the DC child makes when he is handed (or not even given) a vandalized text book to learn from. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]In the end the majority of people become the product of their environment[/FONT]

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452553]And I would say if people are not willing to take 100% responsibility for their actions and decisions, and instead choose to place blame on others, they're not worth helping.

Anyone who recognizes that their actions put them in a bad situation, they've probably learned from it. And I'm all for helping them. [B]Take the mortgage crisis. If people weren't properly educated by lenders that their payments will increase in 5 years when the adjustable term expires, and they now realize that they needed to ask more questions and be more scrutinizing when acquiring financing, then I'm all for helping to bail them out.[/B] But if people want to point fingers at the lenders and call themselves a victim, that indicates a person who is likely to repeat the same mistake.

In order to truly learn from a bad decision, you have to recognize the ways in which you could have prevented the bad decision from being made. In the case of mortgages, the realization has to be that next time I'm going to be mindful of all the ways in which my monthly payment can potentially change.[/quote]
But there's no difference between your scenario and someone who grew up without any guidance and made a bad choice, but who now wants help establishing the very environment you and I were lucky enough to have as youths.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=onlydarksets;452557]But there's no difference between your scenario and someone who grew up without any guidance and made a bad choice, but who now wants help establishing the very environment you and I were lucky enough to have as youths.[/quote]

We keep talking about needing guidance in order to make decisions.

Aren't most decisions made with basic common sense? How much guidance do you need for that? That's my whole thing here, how much do parents REALLY affect your upbringing? Plenty, I'm not saying it plays no role, but it doesn't play a big enough that it excuses away a lack of common sense.

If you go into a lender, and they tell you you're going to have an adjustable rate mortgage and your payment will be $500 a month for a $300,000 house, shouldn't a red flag be going up in your head? You mean to tell me you need a good home and a good upbringing to be able to tell when something seems too good to be true?

When someone tells you $500 payment on a $300,000 house, your first question should be OK what's the catch? If they say no catch, you have a legal case.

You don't have to know financing or know how real estate works. But you should be able to follow your nose when you smell something rotten. And at the very least, you should be able to ask "How is it possible for me to pay $500 a month on a $300,000 house?" Ask the basic questions until you understand it, even if they seem stupid. If you can't understand how it works on a basic level, then you shouldn't be making that deal. Isn't that just basic common sense/street smarts? I don't think you need a tremendous support system to exercise common sense and decent judgment.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

I think your upbringing contributes more to your common sense than you think.

What's basic to you may not be so basic to others.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452553]And I would say if people are not willing to take 100% responsibility for their actions and decisions, and instead choose to place blame on others, they're not worth helping.

Anyone who recognizes that their actions put them in a bad situation, they've probably learned from it. And I'm all for helping them. Take the mortgage crisis. If people weren't properly educated by lenders that their payments will increase in 5 years when the adjustable term expires, and they now realize that they needed to ask more questions and be more scrutinizing when acquiring financing, then I'm all for helping to bail them out. But if people want to point fingers at the lenders and call themselves a victim, that indicates a person who is likely to repeat the same mistake.

In order to truly learn from a bad decision, you have to recognize the ways in which you could have prevented the bad decision from being made. In the case of mortgages, the realization has to be that next time I'm going to be mindful of all the ways in which my monthly payment can potentially change.[/quote]
so as long as these people admit they were wrong, or uneducated, you are all for helping? give me a break, and get off your high horse

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=onlydarksets;452557]But there's no difference between your scenario and someone who grew up without any guidance and made a bad choice, but who now wants help establishing the very environment you and I were lucky enough to have as youths.[/quote]

My last post was getting more to the heart of the matter. As for the direct response to your point here, you are absolutely right. That's why I've been saying throughout the thread that I'm all for helping kids with after-care (I recognize the thread is long and you may not have read every post).

The kids cannot help the situation they were born into, I'm fine with giving them after-care programs to keep them out of trouble and help guide them. Once they're provided these types of things though, if they're still making bad decisions as adults and showing no signs of learning from it, those are the folks I'd like to see cut loose from the social programs.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

the mortgage crisis is a bad example. this is something my wife called, almost 20 years ago. times were good, and rates the best ever. lenders were doing anything they could to get people into housing that would make them " house" poor. all but guaranteeing the rates wouldn't creep back up. all the big money players in this got rich, and now the every day Joe's are out. that probably sounds pretty fair to you, schneed. screw the little guy. make him fend for himself. and if he cant, its his problem. this is politics at its worse

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Mattyk72;452565]I think your upbringing contributes more to your common sense than you think.

What's basic to you may not be so basic to others.

Othewise why do we have the mortgage issues that we do now?[/quote]

In some cases, the lenders were actually behaving criminally, which even the most educated person could have fallen victim.

But I think we also have it because people were too afraid to ask the lender enough questions because they didn't want to appear stupid. You don't need an education, you don't need two parents, you don't need a middle class income as a child to understand that if you don't understand how something works, you shouldn't get into it. That to me is basic, not taught, we're born with that.

Everyone has the common sense to make that correct decision. But not everyone got over the fear of asking the questions that may have seemed stupid.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452564]We keep talking about needing guidance in order to make decisions.

Aren't most decisions made with basic common sense? How much guidance do you need for that? That's my whole thing here, how much do parents REALLY affect your upbringing? Plenty, I'm not saying it plays no role, but it doesn't play a big enough that it excuses away a lack of common sense.

If you go into a lender, and they tell you you're going to have an adjustable rate mortgage and your payment will be $500 a month for a $300,000 house, shouldn't a red flag be going up in your head? You mean to tell me you need a good home and a good upbringing to be able to tell when something seems too good to be true?

When someone tells you $500 payment on a $300,000 house, your first question should be OK what's the catch? If they say no catch, you have a legal case.

You don't have to know financing or know how real estate works. But you should be able to follow your nose when you smell something rotten. And at the very least, you should be able to ask "How is it possible for me to pay $500 a month on a $300,000 house?" Ask the basic questions until you understand it, even if they seem stupid. If you can't understand how it works on a basic level, then you shouldn't be making that deal. Isn't that just basic common sense/street smarts? I don't think you need a tremendous support system to exercise common sense and decent judgment.[/quote]

Not everyone is like you or as smart as you. No one really knows what percentage were duped by lenders and what percentage knew what they were getting into. What you can't do is tell me all of them are f*ck'ups.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=dmek25;452568]the mortgage crisis is a bad example. this is something my wife called, almost 20 years ago. times were good, and rates the best ever. lenders were doing anything they could to get people into housing that would make them " house" poor. all but guaranteeing the rates wouldn't creep back up. all the big money players in this got rich, and now the every day Joe's are out. that probably sounds pretty fair to you, schneed. screw the little guy. make him fend for himself. and if he cant, its his problem. this is politics at its worse[/quote]

I can't say I understand what you're saying about a mortgage crisis 20 years ago? Rates were great in the 80s. I'd like to comment further but I can't say I understand what you're talking about.

As for the little guy comment, I perceive myself to be one of the little guys. I'm a guy just like anybody else. I just take responsibility for my actions and do what needs to be done to make good decisions.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=saden1;452571]Not everyone is like you or as smart as you. No one really knows what percentage were duped by lenders and what percentage knew what they were getting into. What you can't do is tell me all of them are f*ck'ups.[/quote]

Ones who were victims of criminal behavior, no, definitely not fuck-ups.

Ones who weren't, I can't call them fuck-ups because lenders still behaved unscrupulously. But they still could have done more to protect themselves.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452567]My last post was getting more to the heart of the matter. As for the direct response to your point here, you are absolutely right. That's why I've been saying throughout the thread that I'm all for helping kids with after-care (I recognize the thread is long and you may not have read every post).

The kids cannot help the situation they were born into, I'm fine with giving them after-care programs to keep them out of trouble and help guide them. Once they're provided these types of things though, if they're still making bad decisions as adults and showing no signs of learning from it, those are the folks I'd like to see cut loose from the social programs.[/quote]

It is long, and I have missed a couple of things along the way (see my earlier post to firstdown), but this one I think I'm tracking.

The difference I am exploring is that we agree on the ends, but not the means. I think the parents deserve the help, while you believe it's the kids who deserve the break. That's what my comments have been geared toward. I do recognize that you are for the proposal, assuming the conditions you stated.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=onlydarksets;452574]It is long, and I have missed a couple of things along the way (see my earlier post to firstdown), but this one I think I'm tracking.

The difference I am exploring is that we agree on the ends, but not the means. I think the parents deserve the help, while you believe it's the kids who deserve the break. That's what my comments have been geared toward. I do recognize that you are for the proposal, assuming the conditions you stated.[/quote]
So the parents that have shown that they make the bad choices and have the social programs allready need more help? What has the billions of dollars that we have allready spent done to correct the problem? Nothing. Sure you can go out and find examples of how people have used the social programs and bettered their life and then contributed back to the community but there are far more that just keep using the system for every penny they can get. The one good thing about after school programs is that it does go directly to the children and not to the parent. I just feel its a jod that is better delt with on a local level than depended on the fed gov. and having to play by their rules to receive the funding. Also if the money is not just a hand out from the fed gov the local community will do a better job on using the money wisely.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452572]I can't say I understand what you're saying about a mortgage crisis 20 years ago? Rates were great in the 80s. I'd like to comment further but I can't say I understand what you're talking about.

As for the little guy comment, I perceive myself to be one of the little guys. I'm a guy just like anybody else. I just take responsibility for my actions and do what needs to be done to make good decisions.[/quote]
my wife called this crisis close to 20 years ago. she knew that there are tons of unethical people doing whatever they could to get people into houses that they just couldn't afford. she has been under writing mortgages for almost 25 years. the people that were the root cause of this will pack up shop, walk away, and open up somewhere else. when you haven't walked in these peoples shoes, your comments come off as snobbish( or shall i use the term, elitist?) right now, there are alot of good people really struggling to make ends meet. living paycheck to paycheck. one wrong decision could pretty much ruin them financially. growing up in an environment of poverty, already starts them off with a strike against them. they can only mimic the choices and decisions they have seen. that's part of the reason it remains a cycle. the other is it takes alot of hard work to break that cycle. some want to, but don't know how. others are just too damn tired to break it. others don't mind going along for the ride. i think that most are good, decent, hard working people. that want a better life, both for their kids, and themselves. but most are also very proud, that would rather do without a hand out. its very hard to separate the needy, into people that want to do the right thing. and people that are generally worthless

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=firstdown;452575]So the parents that have shown that they make the bad choices and have the social programs allready need more help? What has the billions of dollars that we have allready spent done to correct the problem? Nothing. Sure you can go out and find examples of how people have used the social programs and bettered their life and then contributed back to the community but there are far more that just keep using the system for every penny they can get. [/quote]
We're not talking about other social welfare programs - just the after-school care.

[quote=firstdown;452575]The one good thing about after school programs is that it does go directly to the children and not to the parent. I just feel its a jod that is better delt with on a local level than depended on the fed gov. and having to play by their rules to receive the funding. Also if the money is not just a hand out from the fed gov the local community will do a better job on using the money wisely.[/quote]
[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/23667-understanding-the-issues-education-3.html#post452515"]That's what I said[/URL]. As Schneed said, it's a long post, and you probably haven't read every single post.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=Schneed10;452572]I can't say I understand what you're saying about a mortgage crisis 20 years ago? Rates were great in the 80s. I'd like to comment further but I can't say I understand what you're talking about.[/quote]
30 year fixed rates in the 80s were awful, Schneed. My parents first mortgage in the DC area in 1981 was at 19%.
[url=http://mortgage-x.com/trends.htm]Interest Rate Trends ~ Historical Graphs for Mortgage Rates[/url]

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

[quote=onlydarksets;452578]30 year fixed rates in the 80s were awful, Schneed. My parents first mortgage in the DC area in 1981 was at 19%.
[URL="http://mortgage-x.com/trends.htm"]Interest Rate Trends ~ Historical Graphs for Mortgage Rates[/URL][/quote]

Yeah that was the tail end of the mortgage crisis that spilled over from the 70s into the 80s. But under the Reagan administration rates moderated and, 20 years ago (1988) were back to very manageable levels, around 9-10%. Still higher than what we're used to today, but manageable.

Maybe he meant 25-30 years ago, because 20 years ago things were relatively good on that front.

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

Okay, I think it's settled. All in favor of helping kids say "AYE"!

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

Booo kids!

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

Nay!

Re: Understanding the Issues: Education
 

Kids suck - anyone want mine?

I agree - we've beat this one to death.