Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Redskin Warrior;472658]You don't sound like a JC fan[/quote]

He was bad very bad tonight. I realize that he will go through growing pains, but that was hard to watch. I sure as hell hope I am wrong. Like I said I have been a big JC supporter.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Redskin Warrior;472658]You don't sound like a JC fan[/quote]

He sounds like a disgruntled JC fan.

It's kinda like how when you find out how Santa isn't real anymore. You keep hoping and wishing and then one day you're like... "Well damn."

:rofl:

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;472651]I'm not going to say we wouldn't have won this game with Peyton Manning at Quarterback, because we did hold them to 17 points. And Quarterback was certainly part of the problem tonight.

Other problems:

-No semblance of a running game
-Poor run defense
-No pressure on the QB in the first half
-Multiple Blown Coverages on the Giants TD Drive
-Piss poor blocking most of the night
-Receivers never, ever open

The defensive problems were minor, and as the game went on, they disapeared. The offensive issues seem to be rather major, and not bound to fix themselves anytime soon. Rest assured that Jason Campbell will be part of the solution, and a force that offsets the other problems. It will take time though.

If that isn't acceptable to you, then don't watch the games. It's not worth your time, because there are about 20 teams in the NFL that are better than this one that you can be rooting for.[/quote]

You're the man . . .

I just don't get why some fans can't accept that this team is gonna take time to get into an offensive rhythm.

Yes the offense looked god awful, Campbell isn't making his reads quick enough, and our chances of blowing teams away offensively right now look very bleak. Zorn would tell you the same thing I'm sure.

But Campbell has talent, Zorn knows how to coach QB's, and I have patience. I just hope Snyder does too . . .

P.S. I was happy to see the D-line can get pressure on a QB finally, but we REALLY need to fix our run Defense.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=skinsguy;472622]Either way, I'm thinking this year is Campbell's "make it, or break it year." No matter how many games this team wins this season, Campbell needs to show that he can adapt to this offense. I'm thinking if it doesn't look like he's making any progress by mid-season, it could be possible that we'd maybe see Colt. I, too, wouldn't be unhappy if that happens, but I just want the best guy for the job, no matter who it is.[/quote]

Campbell has 2 more years on his rookie contract, he will play those out unless he becomes Kyle Boller all of the sudden. This is not a make or break year for Campbell, if anything, it will be next year.

It is UNIVERSALLY understood by anyone with a smidgen of football knowledge that Colt is at least 2 years from being a viable BACKUP so the Cult of Colt might as well take a seat next to him on the bench.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=wilsowilso;472656]Let me get this straight. I argue that JC is not capable and [B]you say that(directed to me) Matty might have to step in after that in general why don't you watch another team?[/B] I was a JC fan all along so when I get mad about his development this year you come up with this?[/quote]Okay. It looks like I've offended you somewhat. I'd like to just say I'm sorry and be done with it, but that would be partially insincere. The goal was to get you to think rationally (I'm under the impression that you are PUI -- posting under the influence, correct me if I'm wrong), because even though we disagree a lot, you are usually way more rational then this.

I think I've accomplished my goal to get you to be more rational. So now, I'm sorry if I offended you.

I can sympathize with your frustration with the offense, but I think you'd be best served to spread the blame/frusteration around and not act like Campbell's development curve is totally destroyed. This is a speed bump, not the Great Wall.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;472670]Okay. It looks like I've offended you somewhat. I'd like to just say I'm sorry and be done with it, but that would be partially insincere. The goal was to get you to think rationally (I'm under the impression that you are PUI -- posting under the influence, correct me if I'm wrong), because even though we disagree a lot, you are usually way more rational then this.

I think I've accomplished my goal to get you to be more rational. So now, I'm sorry if I offended you.

I can sympathize with your frustration with the offense, but I think you'd be best served to spread the blame/frusteration around and not act like Campbell's development curve is totally destroyed. This is a speed bump, not the Great Wall.[/quote]

Now I'm rational. Thank you. After we argued for so long on Brady vs Manning over two seasons did I meet your goal of being rational? You are right about one thing. I am frustrated.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Paintrain;472668]Campbell has 2 more years on his rookie contract, he will play those out unless he becomes Kyle Boller all of the sudden. This is not a make or break year for Campbell, if anything, it will be next year.

It is UNIVERSALLY understood by anyone with a smidgen of football knowledge that Colt is at least 2 years from being a viable BACKUP so the Cult of Colt might as well take a seat next to him on the bench.[/quote]

I'm not so sure about that. Colt really really suprised me this pre season. I didn't think he could play at the NFL level but he looked like he belonged this pre season. He makes fast reads, gets rid of the ball quickly and is very accurate. I'm in no way saying he should be starting but lets see where he is next pre season.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

All i can say is Run - Run - Pass. Great job Zorn. Run into the teeth of the defense. end up with a third and 5-6 and do a dump off pass for 4-5 yds.

Zorn Failed to seize the game when the momentum was going the skins way. Once again, as in the past 4 years, he played it conservative.

WHERE THE F-WAS COOOLEY. Alll i saw all game long was campbell looking right and throwing that way.

Someone tell me how this is different than the gibbs system where the skins try to overpower the D with an O that is clearly over matched.

Zorn's early West Coast Offense = Gibbs 3.0
In this league there is not time for a journeyman to lose 2-3 games, while learning how to coach and win.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=wilsowilso;472665]He was bad very bad tonight. I realize that he will go through growing pains, but that was hard to watch. I sure as hell hope I am wrong. Like I said I have been a big JC supporter.[/quote]

What in the hell were you expecting our offense to do against the Giants defense? Were you expecting a young Qb in his 3rd NFL offense in his 4th year to go off against the SB champs?? I honestly was expecting this.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=wilsowilso;472677]Now I'm rational. Thank you. After we argued for so long on Brady vs Manning over two seasons did I meet your goal of being rational? You are right about one thing. I am frustrated.[/quote]Like I said before, I thought you were wrong on Manning/Brady. I didn't think you were irrational.

I don't blame you for being frustrated.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Stacks42;472679]All i can say is Run - Run - Pass. Great job Zorn. Run into the teeth of the defense. end up with a third and 5-6 and do a dump off pass for 4-5 yds.

Zorn Failed to seize the game when the momentum was going the skins way. Once again, as in the past 4 years, he played it conservative.

WHERE THE F-WAS COOOLEY. Alll i saw all game long was campbell looking right and throwing that way.

Someone tell me how this is different than the gibbs system where the skins try to overpower the D with an O that is clearly over matched.

Zorn's early West Coast Offense = Gibbs 3.0
In this league there is not time for a journeyman to lose 2-3 games, while learning how to coach and win.[/quote]

The running late in the game was a joke. But we had to mix in the run just to try and give our defense some rest. One thing that was apparent was it takes us a gazillion plays just to go 30 yards.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;472682]Like I said before, I thought you were wrong on Manning/Brady. I didn't think you were irrational.

I don't blame you for being frustrated.[/quote]

I was right on Brady/Manning GTrIpp. Maybe this thread was a little rash?

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

Here's what I have noticed. Counting the parts of the pre-season games that had any relevance and this game we have seen several QBs who seem to drop back and get rid of the ball to the first guy on their read very often. It seems they are rather comfortable coming to the line, reading the D and then KNOWING where the best option is. JC does not have this. He seems to have a stone cold progression on every play that he dogmatically follows and invariably the first option isn't open. In this league if your first option isn't open and your line is pass blocking only adequately or worse then your are dead. I counted numerous times where there was a 3/4 option open that JC never got to.

We have to pass protect better to give him a achance to get to these reads.
We have to execute so everyone, most importantly JC, gains comfort so know what to do.
We HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO run the ball with more aggression from our line. They need to start mauling. That will make it much easier for everyone to build a better comfort level.
We have to pray that JC's short comings right now are a result of ignorance and inexperience rather than an inate inability to execute this offense.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

I admire Zorn's patience by not forcing anything, and continuing to mix it up when we were trailing. All that is well and good, but we really, really to needed to go no-huddle with 4 minutes left.

Zorn did a great job managing the clock in the first half, so it's totally unfair to say he can't manage the clock after one game. But I'm not giving him a pass for the lack of urgency at the tail end of the 4th quarter. I don't see why it wouldn't improve though.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;472678]I'm not so sure about that. Colt really really suprised me this pre season. I didn't think he could play at the NFL level but he looked like he belonged this pre season. He makes fast reads, gets rid of the ball quickly and is very accurate. I'm in no way saying he should be starting but lets see where he is next pre season.[/quote]
That's about the most rational Colt-love I've seen. If JC completely craps the bed all season, I would be interested to see Colt against starters in the pre-season next year if for nothing more than to truly gauge his ability.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=wilsowilso;472684]I was right on Brady/Manning GTrIpp. Maybe this thread was a little rash?[/quote]No, and yes.

Brady-Manning is water under the bridge though, at least for now. People will defend Brady's "clutchiness" to the point of insanity, and it doesn't make any sense to me, but I'm willing to let it go for now -- ultimately it's a matter of opinion no matter how convincing the evidence is on one side or the other...there's always another argument. Plus I'm not 100% convinced that Manning is better. More like, 98.5%

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

Did anyone expect Matt Hasselbeck to suddenly emerge in the #17 jersey? It took Hasselbeck 2 years to stop sucking in this offense AFTER he had already learned it in GB. Reality check people, the light may flicker for a while but it will eventually come on..

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

Aww, did I miss out on all the irrationality? Damn, I wanted to add in my two cents. Well better late than never:

Fire Zorn, NOW!!!! Hire the Ole Ball Coach again.

Trade JC and our next two 1st round picks for Charlie Frye. Wonder what Danny Wuerful and Shane Matthews are up to.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;472690]No, and yes.

Brady-Manning is water under the bridge though, at least for now. People will defend Brady's "clutchiness" to the point of insanity, and it doesn't make any sense to me, but I'm willing to let it go for now -- ultimately it's a matter of opinion no matter how convincing the evidence is on one side or the other...there's always another argument. Plus I'm not 100% convinced that Manning is better. More like, 98.5%[/quote]

You got three rings and the best season by an NFL QB ever to deal with Mr Numbers. Don't tell me you picked Brady for your fantasy team GTripp?

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Jamaican'Skin;472693]Aww, did I miss out on all the irrationality? Damn, I wanted to add in my two cents. Well better late than never:

Fire Zorn, NOW!!!! Hire the Ole Ball Coach again.

Trade JC and our next two 1st round picks for Charlie Frye. Wonder what Danny Wuerful and Shane Matthews are up to.[/quote]

We ran to much against a great d-line and didn't pass until we had too and the D knew it, plain and simple.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

HESITATE?!?!?! Didn't Zorn get on him all training camp and preseason to stop patting the ball before he threw? no INT's but shit man, any DB that studies campbell enough knows that ball is coming! I mean, if we threw at all there would've been picks!

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=mauiRedskinbarn;472553]Put in collins, He spanked the giants 8 months ago, he won 4 in a row, he's still got momentum. He should be this teams captain, he can guide this team better than JC. Having him in is the best chance we have.

Just like in Arizona, sit the sucker, start the veteran[/quote]

Memory is a funny thing .. Collins Spanked them ? The team spanked them you want to know what Collins stat line in NY was in 2007

Att/Comp Yards TD INT Sacks
8/25 156 6.2 0 0 2

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

one game, new offense... some people just jack their expectations up way too high.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Paintrain;472692]Did anyone expect Matt Hasselbeck to suddenly emerge in the #17 jersey? It took Hasselbeck 2 years to stop sucking in this offense AFTER he had already learned it in GB. Reality check people, the light may flicker for a while but it will eventually come on..[/quote]

So it would be totally unreasonable to expect any competance from Jason Campbell for another two years?

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

Great news guys....Our starting QB is 1-5 in his last 6 starts. Thats pretty good right?
LOSER!!!

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

He hates Campbell he wants Colt we know the story. Colt is another Jeff Garcia he is too little and too slow.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

I really have gone from being a Campbell supporter in the OTA's and last year to being on the fence. So for my 2cents:

.01 -- Please stop saying 7 new systems in 8 years. If anyone doesn't know this fact by now, then what can they really bring to this discussion.

.02 -- Zorn has committed to JC, much like Gibbs committed to Theismann before they went 0-5, if Zorn doesn't give JC the chance to succeed, at the possible cost of his first season, then he WILL lose the team.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Beemnseven;472737]So it would be totally unreasonable to expect any competance from Jason Campbell for another two years?[/quote]

No, but it's totally unreasonable to expect him to be quick, efficient and fully comfortable in the system in 6 weeks.

If he consistently improves all season, the wins will come. If he DOES take 2 years to get to a Pro Bowl level then we're winning a lot. I'll take that long term prospect of winning over a pretty performance one night.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

One more thought on Campbell, for his first 4 years he was taught by Gibbs to be cautious, cautious, cautious and don't take chances to turn the ball over. What we've heard from Zorn is that JC has to trust himself and cut the ball loose. He's got to overcome 4 years of one way of thinking in 6 months. It's going to take time to not only get comfortable in the WCO but also take time trusting himself to take the chances that he was coached against taking before.

After the 4th down checkdown to Betts at the end of the game, you can see Zorn telling him 'I don't care, you have to throw it.' On the replay you can see that he was trying to get it to Randle-El who was somewhat covered but was beyond the first down sticks. Basically he's got to give his WR a chance to make a play in that situation, but his 'instincts' have been taught for him not to throw that ball. One thing about WCO QB, they have good stats, but also can have some high INT numbers. He's got to get over the fear of the turnover with the expectation that more good will come than harm.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Paintrain;472791]One more thought on Campbell, for his first 4 years he was taught by Gibbs to be cautious, cautious, cautious and don't take chances to turn the ball over. What we've heard from Zorn is that JC has to trust himself and cut the ball loose. He's got to overcome 4 years of one way of thinking in 6 months. It's going to take time to not only get comfortable in the WCO but also take time trusting himself to take the chances that he was coached against taking before.

After the 4th down checkdown to Betts at the end of the game, you can see Zorn telling him 'I don't care, you have to throw it.' On the replay you can see that he was trying to get it to Randle-El who was somewhat covered but was beyond the first down sticks. Basically he's got to give his WR a chance to make a play in that situation, but his 'instincts' have been taught for him not to throw that ball. One thing about WCO QB, they have good stats, but also can have some high INT numbers. He's got to get over the fear of the turnover with the expectation that more good will come than harm.[/quote]

I think that's a good point and Madden touched on it as well. Along with all the different offenses he's worked in, along with those offenses comes different philosophies and ways of doing things. It's going to take some time for JC to unlearn the way he's been doing things the last couple of years and buy in to what Zorn wants him to do.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

i just dont think he had the opportunity from the blocking schemes or from the wideouts to succeed in any facet. Perhaps he could have chucked it up and given it on his WRs but i dont blame him for not trusting them to make those catches...they are all midgets...

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

One game and I am already tired of the haters.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;472805]One game and I am already tired of the haters.[/quote]

It doesn't take long for the sky to fall around here. Hell it was already on it's way down in the preseason. The doom and gloomers are touching themselves today.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=cpayne5;472581]So, with JC out from behind center, this team is a Super Bowl contender?[/quote]

With or without JC under center this team is not a SB contender.

Its not all JC's fault. He has an old slow o line that doesnt give him the time he needs. He also has midget receivers and that makes it tough. JC is just one part of a fundamentally flawed team.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=irish;472813]With or without JC under center this team is not a SB contender.

Its not all JC's fault. He has an old slow o line that doesnt give him the time he needs. He also has midget receivers and that makes it tough. JC is just one part of a[B] fundamentally flawed[/B] team.[/quote]Good post, irish, but I'm not sure I'd use the term fundamentally flawed.

If there is a fundamentally flawed unit on the team, it's the offensive line. They weren't good in pass pro last season and probably won't be any better this season. But Campbell is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode onto the scene, and the defense is almost as good as it was last year.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;472799]I think that's a good point and Madden touched on it as well. Along with all the different offenses he's worked in, along with those offenses comes different philosophies and ways of doing things. It's going to take some time for JC to unlearn the way he's been doing things the last couple of years and buy in to what Zorn wants him to do.[/quote]If this is the case, I think Zorn should take some blame for doing this to him. Zorn should be helping to build on what Gibbs/Lazor/Saunders were teaching, not tearing Campbell down to rebuild him again.

If it's the latter, it's much ado about nothing, and will only slow down his progression a bit before he reaches his prime.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[QUOTE]It doesn't take long for the sky to fall around here. Hell it was already on it's way down in the preseason. The doom and gloomers are touching themselves[/QUOTE]

I think people are just freaked right now. They just wanted to see SOMETHING productive. New coach or not, we were a team on the cusp of turning that final corner. I think the transition from gibbs, to zorn...from a man we call a legend, to another with no experience outside of qb whatsoever is going to be a tough one that most people are going to have "sky is falling" attitude.
We just want some hope that this is the right move, the right decision, that he is a man the players will go to war for..and lay it on the line for. We dont need a coach that is "trying to figure out" his offense on us as his trial run...

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=irish;472813]With or without JC under center this team is not a SB contender.

Its not all JC's fault. He has an old slow o line that doesnt give him the time he needs. He also has midget receivers and that makes it tough. JC is just one part of a fundamentally flawed team.[/quote]

All the more reason to know the offense and get rid of the ball. The first play of the damn game should've been an incomplete pass out of bounds. Chuck it, don't hold it for a sack.

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Paintrain;472791]One more thought on Campbell, for his first 4 years he was taught by Gibbs to be cautious, cautious, cautious and don't take chances to turn the ball over. What we've heard from Zorn is that JC has to trust himself and cut the ball loose. He's got to overcome 4 years of one way of thinking in 6 months. It's going to take time to not only get comfortable in the WCO but also take time trusting himself to take the chances that he was coached against taking before.

After the 4th down checkdown to Betts at the end of the game, you can see Zorn telling him 'I don't care, you have to throw it.' On the replay you can see that he was trying to get it to Randle-El who was somewhat covered but was beyond the first down sticks. Basically he's got to give his WR a chance to make a play in that situation, but his 'instincts' have been taught for him not to throw that ball. One thing about WCO QB, they have good stats, but also can have some high INT numbers. He's got to get over the fear of the turnover with the expectation that more good will come than harm.[/quote]I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. By that I mean that I don't think Campbell has to start throwing caution to the wind now to please Zorn. I'm sure Zorn isn't looking for a wholesale INT increase.

On 4th and 13, JC did what he could. Ultimately, the best chance to get the first down was to get the ball to Betts in space and ask him to break two tackles. There's a reason that 4th and 13 is a very low rate of conversion.

I'll buy the fearing the turnover argument (although I would argue that this is a good thing to have in the back of your mind), but I won't buy that the WCO has a higher INT rate than other systems. The traditional WCO is QB friendly: higher completion percentages, higher touchdown rate, lower intercepton rate -- all at the expense of the backs and receivers ability to make plays after the catch.

But then again, no one ever said we were going to a traditional WCO from Zorn ;)

Re: JC is not what I thought.
 

[quote=Paintrain;472662]To put this loss on Campbell proves that you have no actual knowledge about football and are simply echoing the morons that always blame or praise the QB for the team's fortunes.[/quote]

[COLOR=black]Agreed, 100%. Campbell looked hesitant and slow last night, but in my mind, that probably has a lot to do with the new offense. I don't understand the need to write him off after one effing game. When he had time, he completed passes. He threw a beautiful ball that hit the "hard working" James Thrash in the hands and body, but he managed to drop a sure touchdown. If that pass is completed, the outlook of the game changes and I imagine this asinine, knee jerk reaction of a thread wouldn't exist, or at least would be much smaller. [/COLOR]