Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;498524]Saden:


BB:

Polls show that same sex marriage bans are going to go the way of T-Rex within the next few years. Whereas people over 40 tend to oppose gay marriage in overwhelming numbers, the opposite is true for people under 40. So, citing support for gay marriage bans is a bit of a double-edged sword.

I would also like to ask you why you think same sex couples should be barred from adopting kids. Keep in mind that thousands upon thousands of kids are waiting to be adopted and many of them will never have families to call their own. That you would prefer a kid to never having any family whatsoever in his/her entire life to having a same sex couple as parents is breathtaking in its heartlessness.

Finally, aside from saying that homosexuality is unnatural, you haven't advanced a single argument as to how same sex marriage is bad for society. People do a lot of things that are unnatural. We take medicines to alleviate sicknesses, we drive cars to avoid long walks and we fly in airplanes to travel across continents, but that doesn't make Advil, Ford and Northwest Airlines harbingers of the collapse of society. You can say it just "feels" wrong, but that doesn't really cut it. I can articulate many reasons why murder, robbery, rape, etc. are wrong. I can't really articulate why I like the color green. To me, the reasons you've expressed for thinking homosexuality is wrong sound a lot like my attempts to explain why I like the color green.[/quote]

It would be equally true that you cannot produce any reasons for declaring homosexuality well and proper. It's clearly a moral question and moral questions are always subjective. On an issue like this, where matters of morality are being decided it has to be majority rule, in my opinion. As long as the majority of society agrees that homosexuality is negative and immoral, legislation like Prop 8 will stand a good chance of remaining law. But, as you said, all trending seems to indicate that my way of thinking is truly going the way of the dodo. It is my personal belief that that is to the detriment of society. So buck up, in ten years, you'll be right and I'll be the equivalent of the old guy in the neighborhood yelling at the kids to get off my lawn. We'll see if the nation is better off.

As to your point about adoption, I believe that any home that is based in wholesale immorality is a negative environment for children, who are at the mercy of their legal guardians on a multitude of levels. So while I can obviously appreciate your point, my reasoning is again based in morality, which you will not like.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498525]If only we [URL="http://www.christianparty.net/adulterylaws.htm"]enforced adultly laws[/URL] we would have happier couples and less devoice in our culture. Got to love the Utah law. How far do you go? Where do you draw the line?[/quote]

I agree that that is a question to be asked on both sides of any "moral" argument.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;498527]BleedBurgundy:

I hope you take this in good fun, but I think it's kind of funny that the guy with boobs in his signature is talking about how allowing homosexuals to commit to each other for life is against common "decency."[/quote]

See, you failed the moral Rorschach test that is my signature! You wanted to see boobs, so those are boobs. What if I told you those are actually eyes?

I'm kidding.


Good night folks, may you sleep soundly in your bed, next to your partner of the opposite sex.




[SIZE="1"]Again, kidding...[/SIZE]

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;498521]I won't lie, I can see why someone who is a member of one of those "certain groups," having experienced discrimination would be so averse to any preference denied a given demographic, almost regardless of reason. I hope I worded that well.[/quote]

That's comforting, but I need food, water, and shelter from the mob.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

I forget who it was but there was a Repbulican Consultant on CNN that was talking about what the Republican party needs to do and I was stunned about how right she was. Anyway she went on to say that the party needs to focus more on shrinking government and less on how we should live our lives. The funny thing is unless the Republican party evolves to a more do what you want with your life policy then they are going to lose my generation (under 30) as we saw during the prop 8 vote.

I think it's ironic that every election these days seems to make me choose between my morals and my wallet. With that said looking back I'm excited now that Obama won especially with the retirement of the Supreme Court Justices on the horizon as well as the blow up over at the McCain camp. Though I think way to much of it is to much information.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;498549]I forget who it was but there was a Repbulican Consultant on CNN that was talking about what the Republican party needs to do and I was stunned about how right she was. Anyway she went on to say that the party needs to focus more on shrinking government and less on how we should live our lives. The funny thing is unless the Republican party evolves to a more do what you want with your life policy then they are going to lose my generation (under 30) as we saw during the prop 8 vote.

I think it's ironic that every election these days seems to make me choose between my morals and my wallet. With that said looking back I'm excited now that Obama won especially with the retirement of the Supreme Court Justices on the horizon as well as the blow up over at the McCain camp. Though I think way to much of it is to much information.[/quote]

That was Susan Molinari

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

Interesting to see the economic impact of Prop 8:

[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/us/07marriage.html?ref=us"]Demise of Same-Sex Weddings Disheartens Businesses [/URL]

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498516]I'm always perplexed when ballot measures like these (and for marijuana decriminalization) seem to fail. Especially in California.

David Frum, a conservative writer for National Review said that all you have to do is look at the demographics for those who find the gay issue so important -- it's overwhelmingly over the age of 40.

[B]One day, the tide will turn[/B].[/quote]

Yes, I believe in our lifetime it will.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

Just want to say that this thread has been probably the most civil political discussion on this board.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=onlydarksets;498615]Just want to say that this thread has been probably the most civil political discussion on this board.[/quote]

Ha, I can fix that!!!

[IMG]http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/political-pictures-closet.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498505]I'm for personal freedom and individual rights. If someone finds love or pleasure in the arms of another person who happens to be of the same sex, it should be absolutely, perfectly legal. Same for gay marriage.

And yes, I do enjoy unravelling the logic of those with whom I disagree.[/quote]
I think people are getting this mixed up some. Its not illegal for gays to get married by a church and have the church regonize them as married. Its that the state will not recognize them as legally married. Myself I really do not understand the issues enough to have a strong opinion either way. I have a gay family member and several gay friend and I have never heard them talk about this issue. Maybe I'll ask next time I have a chance to talk to one of them.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Mattyk72;498568]Interesting to see the economic impact of Prop 8:

[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/us/07marriage.html?ref=us"]Demise of Same-Sex Weddings Disheartens Businesses [/URL][/quote]

I would imagine the shop owner in the imterview is a bit biased on the gay side of the arguement, and the $$ side as well.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

I think you have to draw a line somewhere and this seems as good a place as any. After this it will be plural marriage, then it will be lowering the age of consent, then it will be prostitution, then it will be animals, and on and on. We will never reach a point where there won't be someone who wants their sexual proclivity to be formalized in some way by law, no matter how creepy.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

Once you start legislating morality the war is already lost. It's simply a matter of time....like my man Thomas Jefferson said:

[QUOTE]We are sensible of the duty and expediency of submitting our opinions to the will of the majority, and can wait with patience till they get right if they happen to be at any time wrong.

-Thomas Jefferson[/QUOTE]

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=70Chip;498635]I think you have to draw a line somewhere and this seems as good a place as any. After this it will be [B]plural marriage[/B], then it will be [B]lowering the age of consent[/B], then it will be prostitution, then it will be [B]animals[/B], and on and on. We will never reach a point where there won't be someone who wants their sexual proclivity to be formalized in some way by law, no matter how creepy.[/quote]

You do not believe that you are over reacting a little bit? Those statements remind me of Quagmire playing golf. You went off the deep end.

The age of consent will not be lowered unless they lower the "Legal" age all around.

Legal Polygamy will not be allowed because the government will never go for joint tax returns involving more than 2 people.

I would say that the majority of people on this Earth would not consider marrying an animal.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

In my opinion the gov't shouldn't be in the business of marriage in the first place. Makes no sense to me for some people to tell everyone else how to live. I don't like homosexuality all that much. So guess what...I don't practice it. What others do? I don't give a flying fart. Sanctioning marriage one way but not another is crap. It is that kind of crapola that kills the Republican party. Why is it ok to call for tax cuts, spending cuts and less gov't in general but socially the gov't is supposed to regulate more? Moronic. Not even remotely logical. I don't like the Cowboys. You don't see me trying to get a job with the NFL so I can get them banished from the league. I just don't cheer for them. Pretty simple in my book.

Eliminate the traditional BS marriage tenants of our laws. Enact some type of civil unions for the purpose of satisfying needed unity issues (medical decisions and so forth) and put this dumb issue to bed. If you want to be "against" gays then be "against" them. Have your idiot rallys but don't try to enact laws to prohibit it. We have plenty of laws that prohibit certain actions that don't work anyways so why does legislating this stuff make any sense?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498639]Once you start legislating morality the war is already lost. It's simply a matter of time....like my man Thomas Jefferson said:[/quote]
If you were able to present TJ with the question at hand, what is your opinion of his thoughts on the matter?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Angry;498641]You do not believe that you are over reacting a little bit? Those statements remind me of Quagmire playing golf. You went off the deep end.

The age of consent will not be lowered unless they lower the "Legal" age all around.

Legal Polygamy will not be allowed because the government will never go for joint tax returns involving more than 2 people.

I would say that the majority of people on this Earth would not consider marrying an animal.[/quote]

These statements are true today.
That may not be the case in years to come as "the more our society does the wrong thing, the more right it becomes". That condition is promoting (IMO) an escalating degradation of the moral climate in our society.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Hog1;498658]If you were able to present TJ with the question at hand, what is your opinion of his thoughts on the matter?[/quote]

Given that he is the man who authored the the Declaration of Independence I feel confidant that he would be partial to gay marriage. That is to say if he is a principled man he would [URL="http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0100.htm"]side with liberty[/URL] and not with [URL="http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm"]religious dogma[/URL].

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

My homeboy James Dobson [URL="http://focusfamaction.edgeboss.net/download/focusfamaction/pdfs/10-22-08_2012letter.pdf"]weighs in from [I][B]the future[/B][/I][/URL], the year 2012 to be exact. I'm guessing he is hoping Obama will not be reelected in 2012. Very entertaining read...mega bonus points for creativity. It starts out like this to wet your appetite and get you to lick your lips:

[quote]
Dear friends,

I can hardly sing “The Star Spangled Banner” any more. When I hear the words,

O say, does that star spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

I get tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat. Now in October of 2012, after seeing what has happened in the last four years, I don't think I can still answer, "Yes," to that question. We are not "the land of the free and the home of the brave." Many of our freedoms have been taken away by a liberal Supreme Court and a Democratic majority in both the House and the Senate, and hardly any brave citizen dares to resist the new government policies any more.[/quote]

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498667]Given that he is the man who authored the the Declaration of Independence I feel confidant that he would be partial to gay marriage. That is to say if he is a principled man he would [URL="http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0100.htm"]side with liberty[/URL] and not with [URL="http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm"]religious dogma[/URL].[/quote]

Not sure that gay marriage was much of an issue back then so its hard to say how he would feel. Did the Declaration of Independense apply to black slaves?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498675]My homeboy James Dobson [URL="http://focusfamaction.edgeboss.net/download/focusfamaction/pdfs/10-22-08_2012letter.pdf"]weighs in from [I][B]the future[/B][/I][/URL], the year 2012 to be exact. I'm guessing he is hoping Obama will not be reelected in 2012. Very entertaining read...mega bonus points for creativity. It starts out like this to wet your appetite and get you to lick your lips:[/quote]

I can't even do it.

I'd rather watch the saved by zero Toyota commercial over and over than be subjected to such garbage.

Doesn't he think that homosexuals can be "cured"? :doh:

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=70Chip;498635]I think you have to draw a line somewhere and this seems as good a place as any. After this it will be plural marriage, then it will be lowering the age of consent, then it will be prostitution, then it will be animals, and on and on. We will never reach a point where there won't be someone who wants their sexual proclivity to be formalized in some way by law, no matter how creepy.[/quote]
aren't you the same guy that thinks that the less government intervention into peoples every day lives, the better?

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

From a literary stand point it's a masterpiece. If it will help look at it as a work of fiction written from the prospective of a deranged man.

He thinks it's psychological problem that can be cured. Homeboy wanted to help Ted Haggard but he just didn't have the time.

[yt]CHb1NDoUMOI[/yt]

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=firstdown;498703]Not sure that gay marriage was much of an issue back then so its hard to say how he would feel. Did the Declaration of Independense apply to black slaves?[/quote]

It is not hard to deduce from his writing how he would have felt. Slaves were considered property so I would imagine it applied to them from the stand point of property by their owners.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498740]It is not hard to deduce from his writing how he would have felt. Slaves were considered property so I would imagine it applied to them from the stand point of property by their owners.[/quote]
I'm not much of a history buff so I really cannot argue either way.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498667]Given that he is the man who authored the the Declaration of Independence I feel confidant that he would be partial to gay marriage. That is to say if he is a principled man he would [URL="http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0100.htm"]side with liberty[/URL] and not with [URL="http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm"]religious dogma[/URL].[/quote]
interesting to be sure

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=70Chip;498635]I think you have to draw a line somewhere and this seems as good a place as any. After this it will be plural marriage, then it will be lowering the age of consent, then it will be prostitution, then it will be animals, and on and on. We will never reach a point where there won't be someone who wants their sexual proclivity to be formalized in some way by law, no matter how creepy.[/quote]

See, this is called changing the aspects of the issue at hand, then arguing against something completely different. It's like debating an advocate of gun control, when they inevitably assume that since you want to own a handgun or a semi-automatic rifle, then that also means you should be able to own an M-1 Abrahms tank, or a Pershing ICBM.

By the way, age of consent varies greatly all across the country. And keep in mind, we're talking about [I]consent[/I] here, and last time I checked, animals cannot consent to anything.

For the record, I also think prostitution and plural marriage are fine since they too are actions which do not infringe upon the rights of anyone else.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Beemnseven;498806]See, this is called changing the aspects of the issue at hand, then arguing against something completely different. It's like debating an advocate of gun control, when they inevitably assume that since you want to own a handgun or a semi-automatic rifle, then that also means you should be able to own an M-1 Abrahms tank, or a Pershing ICBM.

By the way, age of consent varies greatly all across the country. And keep in mind, we're talking about [I]consent[/I] here, and last time I checked, animals cannot consent to anything.

For the record, I also think prostitution and plural marriage are fine since they too are actions which do not infringe upon the rights of anyone else.[/quote]

Slippery slopes are real. Read the history of the German race laws in the 1930s.

As to consent laws, I'm not talking about 17 or 16. I'm talking about 12 and younger, and believe me it's coming.

As to your last sentence, I'm actually glad you have the courage to express those views because you prove my point. Most people who hold such views take a much stealthier approach.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498639]Once you start legislating morality the war is already lost. It's simply a matter of time....like my man Thomas Jefferson said:[/quote]

Morality is really the only thing you can legislate.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Angry;498641]You do not believe that you are over reacting a little bit? Those statements remind me of Quagmire playing golf. You went off the deep end.

The age of consent will not be lowered unless they lower the "Legal" age all around.

Legal Polygamy will not be allowed because the government will never go for joint tax returns involving more than 2 people.

I would say that the majority of people on this Earth would not consider marrying an animal.[/quote]

I don't get the Quagmire reference.

Age of consent and legal age are largely the same thing, I think.

The tax angle is interesting.

The majority of men would not consider marrying another man either.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=dmek25;498731]aren't you the same guy that thinks that the less government intervention into peoples every day lives, the better?[/quote]

I'm not a Libertarian. I am a Burkean conservative. The government certainly has a role.

In this case, however, I would suggest that it is the other side that is seeking governmental sanction for their cause. This is an interesting tactic by the left. They alter a standard that is as old as civilization (abortion, gay marriage) and then pretend their opponents are the radicals.

I think the concerns that homosexuals claim to be trying to address with this movement could be dealt with with much less problematic laws. The hospital visitation thing, taxes, etc. The reason I talk about the slippery slope and worry that this process is neverending is that it seems like they are seeking approval or fulfillment that the political process can't provide. I don't think any law will make homosexuality seem normal or satisfy whatever need these folks are seeking to satiate.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=70Chip;498827]Morality is really the only thing you can legislate.[/quote]

Wow, I can't tell if you're serious or clowning. If you're serious that's unbecoming. The constitution is what exactly? It deals with what exactly? Statutory law deals with more than issues concerning morality.

Edit: It occurred to me you might be arguing that every issue we deal with has a moral component. In that respect you are right. My comment, however, was with respect to legislating [I] Christian morality [/I]which is the bases for anti-gay sentiment.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

I still have yet to hear a persuasive argument as to why homosexuality is wrong or how gay marriage is harmful to society. I've heard, "it's unnatural and so it's wrong" (the very same argument advanced with respect to interracial marriages). Homosexuality is "natural" insofar as people are born gay. Additionally, people do a lot of "unnatural" things which are, by all accounts, not immoral. Flying in a steel object at 30,000 feet at 400 miles per hour isn't "natural," but that doesn't make flying from D.C. to L.A. on US Airlines immoral. So, even if homosexuality is "unnatural," that doesn't make it wrong.

I've also heard that homosexuality and gay marriage are wrong because they accelerate the decay of social values (again, the very same argument advanced with respect to interracial marriage). That's conclusory and circular "logic" at its worst. What values does gay marriage erode, the importance of making a lifelong commitment to your partner?

I've also heard gay marriage is wrong, but it's difficult to articulate why it's wrong. I can articulate why murder, rape, robbery, fraud, etc. are wrong, so why can't opponents of homosexuality/gay marriage do the same? Because they can't.

I've also heard that homosexuality and gay marriage have been deemed immoral for thousands of years, as if that is somehow proof positive of immorality. Slavery existed for thousands of years, and still does in some places. Women were treated as property for thousands of years, and still are in many areas of the globe. Tradition isn't always a good thing. In fact, all too often tradition is used as a hollow justification for denying people access to rights that all people should enjoy.

I've also heard that gay marriage is dangerous because it could, possibly, someday lead to all sorts of crazy relationships (e.g., "If we allow gay marriage, we'll end up allowing people to marry a can of spam!"). Address each issue on the merits. Slippery slope arguments are, in general, pretty weak and this one is no exception.

Basically, opposing gay marriage or homosexuality in general comes down to intolerance and a paternalistic and perverse desire to impose personal sexual preferences on the rest of society.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

Very nice post SGG.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;498850]I still have yet to hear a persuasive argument as to why homosexuality is wrong or how gay marriage is harmful to society. I've heard, "it's unnatural and so it's wrong" (the very same argument advanced with respect to interracial marriages). Homosexuality is "natural" insofar as people are born gay. Additionally, people do a lot of "unnatural" things which are, by all accounts, not immoral. Flying in a steel object at 30,000 feet at 400 miles per hour isn't "natural," but that doesn't make flying from D.C. to L.A. on US Airlines immoral. So, even if homosexuality is "unnatural," that doesn't make it wrong.

I've also heard that homosexuality and gay marriage are wrong because they accelerate the decay of social values (again, the very same argument advanced with respect to interracial marriage). That's conclusory and circular "logic" at its worst. What values does gay marriage erode, the importance of making a lifelong commitment to your partner?

I've also heard gay marriage is wrong, but it's difficult to articulate why it's wrong. I can articulate why murder, rape, robbery, fraud, etc. are wrong, so why can't opponents of homosexuality/gay marriage do the same? Because they can't.

I've also heard that homosexuality and gay marriage have been deemed immoral for thousands of years, as if that is somehow proof positive of immorality. Slavery existed for thousands of years, and still does in some places. Women were treated as property for thousands of years, and still are in many areas of the globe. Tradition isn't always a good thing. In fact, all too often tradition is used as a hollow justification for denying people access to rights that all people should enjoy.

I've also heard that gay marriage is dangerous because it could, possibly, someday lead to all sorts of crazy relationships (e.g., "If we allow gay marriage, we'll end up allowing people to marry a can of spam!"). Address each issue on the merits. Slippery slope arguments are, in general, pretty weak and this one is no exception.

Basically, opposing gay marriage or homosexuality in general comes down to intolerance and a paternalistic and perverse desire to impose personal sexual preferences on the rest of society.[/quote]

I think you just hit a walk-off. Debate over.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

A toast to the chewbacca defense.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=saden1;498834]Wow, I can't tell if you're serious or clowning. If you're serious that's unbecoming. The constitution is what exactly? It deals with what exactly? Statutory law deals with more than issues concerning morality.

Edit: It occurred to me you might be arguing that every issue we deal with has a moral component. In that respect you are right. My comment, however, was with respect to legislating [I]Christian morality [/I]which is the bases for anti-gay sentiment.[/quote]


Morality is not the same thing as sexuality. When people say "You can't legislate morality" what they really mean is "You shouldn't legislate sexuality". But even that is unavoidable. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Change should be organic. The people simply aren't ready. Homosexuals should concentrate on passing laws that don't seem like such a frontal assault on traditions that have been developed over many centuries. Revolutions that don't proceed from a strong popular consensus often have dangerous results. This is the difference between the American Revolution, for instance, and the one they had in France.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

[quote=70Chip;499117]Morality is not the same thing as sexuality. When people say "You can't legislate morality" what they really mean is "You shouldn't legislate sexuality". But even that is unavoidable. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Change should be organic. The people simply aren't ready. Homosexuals should concentrate on passing laws that don't seem like such a frontal assault on traditions that have been developed over many centuries. Revolutions that don't proceed from a strong popular consensus often have dangerous results. This is the difference between the American Revolution, for instance, and the one they had in France.[/quote]

Most people aren't yet ready to see gay couples getting married. There's no question that the majority of Americans don't want the states to recognize gay marriage.

However, opponents of gay marriage hurt their cause when they advocate the passage of constitutional amendments, propositions, etc. to ban gay marriage. Such laws have brought the "gay marriage debate" to the forefront of national politics and suggest that the issue is so important that legislators should spend time on it during wartime and a deep recession. Think about it, a few short years ago there was no debate over gay marriage outside of academia. Now, it's all over the news and people like us are giving it serious thought.

Moreover, gay marriage bans are powerful and highly visible symbols of inequality. It's not the same as seeing dogs bite at people peacefully marching in Birmingham, but it will lead to the same result. U.S. history shows that visible symbols of inequality tend to spur debate and typically result in the extension of civil rights.

Re: Steve Young's family up against Mormon church on Prop. 8
 

Heres a page that help debunks the myths spread by the yes on prop 8 movement. Sad to see that they got away with lies convincing people that suddenly homosexuality was going to be forced on everyone including unsuspecting school children and churches would be forced to shut down due to discrimination. Which personally might have been the only "genuine" reasons to vote yes on 8, but with that said maybe the churches should reexamine their stance on this issue.

[url=http://www.noonprop8.com/about/fact-vs-fiction]No On 8, Don't Eliminate Marriage For Anyone[/url]