Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

The simple answer would be because we were drafting the best player available over need. Supposedly we were'nt looking for starters this year, but for the future and increasing the quality of our team as a whole.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

I just find it hard to believe that Fred Davis had such a good career at USC, but he is struggling to learn the play book here? Quite frankly, I am pretty down on all three second round picks at this point. I keep thinking to myself, imagine if we would have used two of those picks on a DE and an OL.

Give credit where it is due. Vinny has done a great job finding gems late (Montgomery, Golston, Horton, Moore) but has a very spotty record with early picks.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

Guys Davis has been hurt. He will see action this week and will get his first TD. You herd it here first.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=firstdown;502674]Guys Davis has been hurt. He will see action this week and will get his first TD. You herd it here first.[/quote]
Kelly's been hurt, not Davis.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=53Fan;502682]Kelly's been hurt, not Davis.[/quote]
My Bad, OK, kelly will see his first TD this weekend snaging a ball over a CB.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=PennSkinsFanhR;502672]I just find it hard to believe that Fred Davis had such a good career at USC, but he is struggling to learn the play book here? Quite frankly, I am pretty down on all three second round picks at this point. [B]I keep thinking to myself, imagine if we would have used two of those picks on a DE and an OL[/B].

Give credit where it is due. Vinny has done a great job finding gems late (Montgomery, Golston, Horton, Moore) but has a very spotty record with early picks.[/quote]

What if we had? Don't you think it's just likely any DE or OL drafted in the 2nd round would probably have made the same impact at this point as the guys we drafted have, and people would be bitching about why doesn't Calais Campbell have any sacks yet, or something like that?

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;502688]What if we had? Don't you think it's just likely any DE or OL drafted in the 2nd round would probably have made the same impact at this point as the guys we drafted have, and people would be bitching about why doesn't Calais Campbell have any sacks yet, or something like that?[/quote]

That's a good point. I think only Chris Long would be the only one who would be semi-productive at this point on our defense at that position. I still think we should have used one of our late picks on either Justice or Pollack as a backup to Rabach. The Colts got them BOTH and both were ranked about as high as you can get for a center.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;502688]What if we had? Don't you think it's just likely any DE or OL drafted in the 2nd round would probably have made the same impact at this point as the guys we drafted have, and people would be bitching about why doesn't Calais Campbell have any sacks yet, or something like that?[/quote]What's driving me nuts about Davis is that we're seeing other TE's drafted early already making an impact. Dustin Keller, John Carlson, and Martellus Bennett (for one play), have made some noise while Davis has been silent. Perhaps the Jets and Seahawks knew better when they drafted Keller and Carlson with Davis still on the board. Maybe they saw Davis as a guy who would have trouble asimilating to the NFL.

And yes, I was one of the guys who wanted Calais Campbell at our slot when we selected Davis.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

For me, I don't look at it where I think Davis should have 400 yards receiving. We already have that in Cooley. Look at the TE production in general for the teams with the TEs you mentioned above. None of them can match what Cooley gives us (with the exception of Dallas).

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;502697]For me, I don't look at it where I think Davis should have 400 yards receiving. We already have that in Cooley. Look at the TE production in general for the teams with the TEs you mentioned above. None of them can match what Cooley gives us (with the exception of Dallas).[/quote]I don't believe that he should have 400 yards, but 150-200 would be a reasonable expectation (15-20 yards per game). I hope Davis proves me wrong and becomes a force, but I was really hoping to see something from the guy when the offense is just begging for someone to step up. For the record, I believe that Malcolm Kelly is that guy during the stretch run, because Davis and Thomas have done little to help to this point.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[B]1st off i dont know really why u draft a te so high when u have cooley 2nd to all the ppl thats disappointed im telling u right now- my bro will make his mark on this team WATCHHHHHHH [/B]

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

he's the fastest te on the team most athletic, watchhhhhhh

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=fd86bro;502703]he's the fastest te on the team most athletic, watchhhhhhh[/quote]

Never doubted that for a moment. He just needs to grasp the mental part of professional football, including managing and understanding the offense. According to Zorn, this is one of his issues.

Lots of players are fast and speedy, but if you can't grasp the play book and fit into the offense, the speed means nothing. Taylor Jacobs was fast too.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

Troy Williamson. Worst fast guy. Ever.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=PennSkinsFanhR;502704]Never doubted that for a moment. He just needs to grasp the mental part of professional football, including managing and understanding the offense. According to Zorn, this is one of his issues.

Lots of players are fast and speedy, but if you can't grasp the play book and fit into the offense, the speed means nothing. [B]Taylor Jacobs was fast too[/B].[/quote]And we passed on Anquan Boldin (4.7 at the combine) for Taylor Jacob's speed (4.4). That worked out well. Hopefully Davis gets it together soon. One aspect that made trading up for Cooley so desirable to Gibbs was Cooley's intelligence. I recall hearing that Cooley had one of the better scores on the Wonderlic test. He went on to lead the team with 6 receiving TDs as a rookie, and never looked back. Athletic ability is great, but we all want to see Davis combine that with intelligent play that wins the coaches' trust.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=fd86bro;502702][B]1st off i dont know really why u draft a te so high when u have cooley 2nd to all the ppl thats disappointed im telling u right now- my bro will make his mark on this team WATCHHHHHHH [/B][/quote]

Welcome to the board, fdbro... you're on the Wearesc board too, right? Tell your brother that skins' fans are a fickle bunch, but we've got his back... as a Trojan, I saw Fred struggle his frosh year and become the best TE in the nation a few seasons later.

Guys, this is really Fred's brother (if it's the same guy).

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

Martellus Bennett numbers:

12 catches, 206 yards, 2 touchdowns

Thomas, Davis and Kelly numbers combined:

13 catches, 89 yards

Kelly has been injured, so I'll give him a pass. But the front office has to be scrutinized for taking a player with known knee issues. And I'm not saying they should be world-beaters out of the gate, but by now, we should be seeing [I]something[/I].

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=itvnetop;502732]Welcome to the board, fdbro... you're on the Wearesc board too, right? Tell your brother that skins' fans are a fickle bunch, but we've got his back... as a Trojan, I saw Fred struggle his frosh year and become the best TE in the nation a few seasons later.

Guys, this is really Fred's brother (if it's the same guy).[/quote]

I'm almost positive it is, so with that in mind I wonder if Fred had the same thought his brother had, which is "Why'd you all draft me when you already have Cooley?"

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

Again, I don't have a problem with the idea of drafting Fred Davis [I]per se[/I], I just think it was a really high price to pay for what this year is a #3 tight end. Now, Yoder is probably gone after this season, and Davis will move into the backup role behind Cooley. I also like the idea of 2 TE sets which hopefully adds a dimension to our offense that opponents will have a lot of trouble with. It's also an advantage to have someone of similar talents as Cooley in case he misses time to injury.

So maybe the more appropriate question is why we drafted Malcolm Kelly. At this site we've all been saying that restocking at the offensive line has to be a priority. Guess what? WE WERE RIGHT. The front office was WRONG. They didn't see it as a priority and now this offense is paying for it royally. And, we pissed away a 2nd round pick for that washed up has-been, Jason Taylor. That puts us even further behind in our ability to upgrade the line for the future.

So the problem isn't really with Fred Davis. The blame, as usual, lies with Vinney Cerrato who looks as though he's F'ed up this draft too. I tried to play along this time, to give him the benefit of the doubt. But his neglect of both offensive and defensive lines will be the downfall of this team.

And most of us here saw it coming.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

I don't have a problem with the Davis signing. They wanted a 2 TE set. Yoder keeps getting brougt back. I'm sure Davis will surpass Yoder as a younger Cooley when he gets the mental side of the game. Which is god knows what?.....route running?- I blame the TE coach for not teaching the routes better. or is it learning the plays/play calls? If he is having trouble don't throw the kitchen sink at him...give him some good plays that involve 2 TE's and have him work in each week more and more.

Now we are going to blame the front office for not drafting O-linemen again. You must have been one of the O-linemen touters. "We need to upgrade/back up our O-line." We need a lot of things. You know why....cause they draft for best player vs. need. We still needed a WR. If we only picked up Thomas look where we would be. Another 5-10 yrd wonder. I'll agree we had protection problems the last two games. I'll also admit we ran up against the probably the two toughest defenses the last two games. but now your going to say we should have drafted an O-linemen ("which he probably would have had problems with the mental game. " Zorn's famous last words.) when you have to admit our offense played lights out for 8 games not allowing a sack and giving the best protection in the league? Hmm. I say our offense needs to get back on track and bring in a deep threat to push more defensive players out of the box. JC has to learn to throw a deep pass once and a while even if it's nothing but a ploy to show we might do it. Instead of throwing 5-10 yarders waiting for a 20 yarder plus to never develope.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

Hey Fred Davis brother can you ask Fred to study more so we can actually see the guy kick ass on the field. The coach basically said Fred does not have the mental aspect down so the next time you see him playing xbox maybe you could suggest he picks up the playbook.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=SBXVII;502756]
......I'll agree we had protection problems the last two games. I'll also admit we ran up against the probably the two toughest defenses the last two games. but now your going to say we should have drafted an O-linemen ("which he probably would have had problems with the mental game. " Zorn's famous last words.) [B]when you have to admit our offense played lights out for 8 games not allowing a sack and giving the best protection in the league? [/B]Hmm. I say our offense needs to get back on track and bring in a deep threat to push more defensive players out of the box. JC has to learn to throw a deep pass once and a while even if it's nothing but a ploy to show we might do it. Instead of throwing 5-10 yarders waiting for a 20 yarder plus to never develope.[/quote]

In the first 8 games in which you say our offense "played light outs and we had the best protection in the league", we played against 4 of the worst defenses in the NFL.

1) Detroit Lions (0-8) [B]31st ranked defense[/B]
2) Cleveland Browns [B]26th ranked deense[/B]
3) St. Louis Rams [B]30th ranked defense [/B]
4) New Orleans Saints [B]24th ranked defense
[/B]

Not exactly great defenses. These defenses do not scare anyone. If you are going to want the OL to play at your "lights out" level, we will need to play crappy teams like we played back then.
The problem is down the stretch we play:
1) Giants
2) Eagles
3) Ravens

You are only good as the teams you play against. Our OL usually plays well against the weak/crappy defenses and usually plays poorly against the best defenses. That means our OL is OK, but not good. We do not have a very good OL. The good defenses are making OL look like shit.
The NY Giants offensive line plays well against good and bad teams. That is why they are currently better than us. Manning has time to look down field and Brandon Jacobs, Derek Ward and Ahmad Bradshaw are running well against every team. Kind of reminds me of our old Hog Days in the 80's and 90's.
Campbell does not have the time to throw deep. It is not the play calling. Zorn does not feel confidant enough in our OL to give Campbell the time to throw down field, so they are forced to keep it short.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=Beemnseven;502742]Again, I don't have a problem with the idea of drafting Fred Davis [I]per se[/I], I just think it was a really high price to pay for what this year is a #3 tight end. Now, Yoder is probably gone after this season, and Davis will move into the backup role behind Cooley. I also like the idea of 2 TE sets which hopefully adds a dimension to our offense that opponents will have a lot of trouble with. It's also an advantage to have someone of similar talents as Cooley in case he misses time to injury.

So maybe the more appropriate question is why we drafted Malcolm Kelly. At this site we've all been saying that restocking at the offensive line has to be a priority. Guess what? WE WERE RIGHT. The front office was WRONG. They didn't see it as a priority and now this offense is paying for it royally. And, we pissed away a 2nd round pick for that washed up has-been, Jason Taylor. That puts us even further behind in our ability to upgrade the line for the future.

So the problem isn't really with Fred Davis. The blame, as usual, lies with Vinney Cerrato who looks as though he's F'ed up this draft too. I tried to play along this time, to give him the benefit of the doubt. But his neglect of both offensive and defensive lines will be the downfall of this team.

And most of us here saw it coming.[/quote]Beemer, my sentiments exactly. Great teams are built from the inside out. The Skins will not threaten the upper echelon until they get stronger in the trenches.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

ill tell u this , on the playbook thing he said he got called out but everyday someone runs the wrong route he made one bad route all week outta how many probably, another thing usc playbook is similar and complicated also ...he feels thats not the issue if it was why is every defensive player saying we cant stop him in practice .. theres more too it

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=fd86bro;502787]ill tell u this , on the playbook thing he said he got called out but everyday someone runs the wrong route he made one bad route all week outta how many probably, another thing usc playbook is similar and complicated also ...he feels thats not the issue if it was why is every defensive player saying we cant stop him in practice .. theres more too it[/quote]

Tell him to keep his head up, and that Skins fans are waiting for him to be let loose. Hopefully, this game against Seattle will be his coming out party.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

Yeah maybe it's politics. Zorn seems to have very little patience for rookies. On the other hand he has plenty of patience for our crappy oline play.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

I think we need to give the rookies a chance. He and Kelly & Thomas haven't done much so far. However, if by next season they aren't producing - then we can start giving them the bust label.

Certainly Vinny and Zorn have got to think about picking some OL and DL players early in the next draft. Without good line play you can't reach the next level in the NFL.

One thing is certain: rookies who come to the Redskins will know that they better be in shape and mentally ready for this team. Zorn is going to give them no free passes and newbies will know that coming here.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[QUOTE]
What ever happened to Fred Davis?
By Jason Reid

Through nine games, second-year tight end Fred Davis has only nine receptions for 133 yards, with no touchdowns.

During the offseason, Redskins coaches said the team planned to use more two-tight end sets, so Davis and tight end Chris Cooley were both expected to have big seasons. Cooley quickly emerged as one of quarterback Donovan McNabb's favorite targets and is among the league leaders at his position, with 39 receptions for 440 yards and two touchdowns.

What's happened to Davis?

"I guess that's a good question," Davis said. "I mean, that's hard, I don't really know the answer to that question, because I don't really question anything that they [the coaches] do. I just roll with it and try to stay positive. It's a business. I don't understand what it is. ... I guess they want to see other looks or do other things.

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/fred-davis/what-ever-happened-to-fred-dav.html]click for rest of article[/url]

By Jason Reid | November 10, 2010; 1:45 PM ET

[/QUOTE]

Again, a wasted 2nd round pick. Just like we all said 2 years ago -- we did NOT need another pass-catching TE when we had a ProBowl Chris Cooley. If anything, we needed a blocking TE, but not one in the 2nd round.

Hindsight is always 20/20 - but how awesome would it have been to draft ONE WR that year, and then two offensive linemen (-- not named Rhinehart)...

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

Like I've said hundreds of times, 2 TE's cant work in the NFL.

Dallas: Bennett has a huge upside but cant get on the field..
INDY: Now that Clark is out, Tamme has played great including 11 Catches Sunday
Same goes for us, CC is the man and FD just can't get on the field..

If Cooley wasn't on the team, Davis would be shining right now.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;757565]Like I've said hundreds of times, 2 TE's cant work in the NFL.

Dallas: Bennett has a huge upside but cant get on the field..
INDY: Now that Clark is out, Tamme has played great including 11 Catches Sunday
Same goes for us, CC is the man and FD just can't get on the field..

If Cooley wasn't on the team, Davis would be shining right now.[/quote]I almost forgot creating this thread two years ago, but it's still very relevant. A backup TE was not a luxury we could afford with more pressing needs, especially O-line depth, or lack thereof, that still plagues us to this day. I'm not saying that Davis can't be a productive player, we saw what he can do when Cooley was injured, but as long as CC is healthy and producing, Fred Davis is about as useful to this roster as a backup punter.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

^ exactly, we should have traded Fred in the offseason. I say he's gone after this yr, one of them will he for sure IMO

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;757565]Like I've said hundreds of times, 2 TE's cant work in the NFL.[/quote]
Just because we don't/aren't using Davis doesn't mean it can't be done.
The Packers, Patriots, Texans and Saints all make good use of double and multiple TEs.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

^ I didn't say it can't be done but you won't ever see 2 TEs become big parts of the offense at the same time..

And GB hardely used anyone before Finley got hurt, and as far as Saints go their TEs aren't anything special.. Shockey is done

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;757578]^I didn't say it can't be done[/quote]

Um that's exactly what you said:[quote=skinsfaninok;757565]Like I've said hundreds of times, [B][I][U][COLOR="DarkRed"]2 TE's cant work in the NFL[/COLOR][/U][/I][/B].[/quote]

Don't be a hypocrite you said, stick with it.

[quote=skinsfaninok;757578]but [B][I][U][COLOR="Red"]you won't ever see 2 TEs become big parts of the offense at the same time[/COLOR][/U][/I][/B]..[/quote]
Wrong again my friend I listed 4 teams that use 2 TEs as a big part of their passing offense.(Packers, Patriots, Texans and Saints)
And there are plenty more teams that use 2 TEs a part of their base offense run sets/formations.

[quote]And GB hardely used anyone before Finley got hurt,[/quote]
I watch a lot of football, probably too much.
And i can tell you you're dead wrong.
The Packers have been using 2 TEs since last year.
Finley 55 catches
Lee 37
This year is different due to injury to 3 TEs but the numbers are:
Finley 21 catches
Lee, Quarless, Crabtree 17 catches.

[quote] and as far as Saints go their TEs aren't anything special.. Shockey is done[/quote]
Huh?
Wow that's a great argument: because you don't like their TEs that means their TEs aren't producing?
Well the numbers prove you wrong once again:
Shockey 31 catches
Dave Thomas 27
J Graham 8 catches

I could keep going with the Pats and Texans but i think i've made my point.
Just because we aren't making good use of Fred Davis doesn't mean it can't be done.
HTTR!

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

I just don't understand why Davis isn't on the field a lot more. Especially in the red zone. Makes no snese.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;757593]I just don't understand why Davis isn't on the field a lot more. Especially in the red zone. Makes no snese.[/quote]

I'm with you on that brotha, for a team that's as limited as WR as we are it makes no sense to have a starting caliber TE and only have targeted him 13 times that Sellers, Torrain and Keiland Williams have more 23, 17, 15 targets respectively. There's no way way a Fred Davis should have less targets then those guys.
Fred Davis is being criminally underused by Kyle.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=30gut;757594]I'm with you on that brotha, for a team that's as limited as WR as we are it makes no sense to have a starting caliber TE and only have targeted him 13 times that Sellers, Torrain and Keiland Williams have more 23, 17, 15 targets respectively. There's no way way a Fred Davis should have less targets then those guys.
Fred Davis is being criminally underused by Kyle.[/quote]

This. I don't want to hear about drops, either- all of our receivers are guilty of this. I read somewhere that he's had trouble picking up the new offense, but even so there's got to be some simple routes that put the ball in his hands. I remember last season people were absolutely gushing when he took over for Cooley- comparisons to Gates, etc. The talent is there; utilize it.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

It's always better to have too much of a good thing than too little...at least in terms of NFL depth.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=ethat001;757563]Again, a wasted 2nd round pick. Just like we all said 2 years ago -- we did NOT need another pass-catching TE when we had a ProBowl Chris Cooley. If anything, we needed a blocking TE, but not one in the 2nd round.

Hindsight is always 20/20 - but how awesome would it have been to draft ONE WR that year, and then two offensive linemen (-- not named Rhinehart)...[/quote]
And the probabilty of success that these other "phantom o-linemen" was 100%. NOT. The only dude who even is sniffing a starting job and was[B] not[/B] a FIRST ROUNDER in that draft was LICHTENSTEIGER. That draft had a horrible oline class beyond the first round.


No Olinemen were drafted in the 2nd round except for Chico Rachal.

Re: Why Did We Draft Fred Davis?
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;757599]It's always better to have too much of a good thing than too little...at least in terms of NFL depth.[/quote]

Especially at TE while ignoring OL and WR in the draft for 10 years, even when they are a position of greater need.