Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=GTripp0012;518690]Well, at least we've got the 4th WR position filled through 2011. That's got to be worth something, right?[/quote]

I hope!
I'm not trying to bash Vinny's choices. Well, maybe I am w/Kelly's knees if it's true that the med. staff red flagged it. I thought Thomas was a relative steal where we got him & was certainly worth taking a chance on. I do think it's obvious that the jury is still out on these guys. We didn't see enough in 08 to show us that they'll become playmakers.

I trust JLC's reporting about Thomas' behavior, as I don't think he would write it if he didn't have good info after a full season. Sounds like the guy has a lot of personal maturing to do, hope that he can do that here in DC & be at least a dependable starter for us.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

So Devin Thomas needs to get away from football for a while huh. Wow, not good to hear at all. I understand that all players need a break after the season, but this guy better grow up quick. We need him to be working his ass off this offseason. Anyone remember the little comments that JC and Cooley made at times last year about guys not working hard? I'm convinced they were talking about Thomas now.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Mattyk72;518721]So Devin Thomas needs to get away from football for a while huh. Wow, not good to hear at all. I understand that all players need a break after the season, but this guy better grow up quick. We need him to be working his ass off this offseason. Anyone remember the little comments that JC and Cooley made at times last year about guys not working hard? I'm convinced they were talking about Thomas now.[/quote]

They were actually talking about Anthony Mix...though they may have also been talking about Thomas

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;518722]They were actually talking about Anthony Mix...though they may have also been talking about Thomas[/quote]

JC made some comments pretty recently though long after Mix was outta here.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I would suggest, dare I say, bring back Maurice Mann, Mix (yes I said Mix), McMullen, and go grab Marcus Monk (since he was cut by the Giants) [B]and ...hire a more knowledgable WR's coach[/B] and work these guys as well as Thomas and Kelly's butts off and let them know Moss and ARE are on the team the rest of the positions are available for them if they can prove themselves. Then I would invite any undrafted WR's to come and show case their talent. If we are keeping 6-7 WR's on the team then work them to death over the off season and hopefully they work out.

Mix ...I would advise to lose weight and work his ass off. Maybe it's just the working part he doesn't like but working out might lose the weight for him.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Paintrain;518664]I was thinking the same exact thing. Imagine how much the FO would have been ripped if they drafted Royal or DeSean Jackson? By the way, the other 'big' WR that we were considering in the draft James Hardy had 9 catches for 87 yards.

If this front office traded for a healthy Tom Brady JLC would criticize them for him being a character risk for having a baby out of wedlock.[/quote]

Wide Receiver seems like such a situational position to me. Kelly could have probably gone to Denver and put up the same stats as Eddie Royal, Thomas could have probably gone to Philly and produced like DeSean Jackson and DeSean Jackson could have come here and been inactive most of the year (due to poor attitude and excessive clubbing). Hardy's got talent, but the Bills offense might be as dysfunctional as ours.

It just seems that WR stats fluctuate wildly based on circumstance. Look when Welker goes to NE, Moss goes to Oakland, Roddy White gets a new QB, Santana is all over the map, etc.)

I just find it hard to believe that we whiffed completely on Kelly, Thomas and Davis. With our offense being one of the worst in the league, I don't see how we could have done any worse with those guys on the field. And like I've said many times, there are ways to move the ball and score points without relying heavily on receivers (San Diego, Miami, Baltimore, KC, for many years, etc.).

I'm more inclined to point to other factors, such as poor coaching and development, poor pass protection and/or poor QB play (hard to tell for sure what's to blame), and poor play calling.

And it's not just with rookies. We take guys like Brandon Lloyd and David Patten and get little to no production out of them (New Orleans and Chicago got at least marginal production from both of them). There are systemic problems with the Skins than supercede any deficiencies with the players.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Was Antonio Bryant available last year? He was a beast for Tampa Bay and they only had to pay the veteran minimum to get him. A guy like him is all the Skins needed last year. I know he's had his issues, but if they got him they could have used their picks to beef up the lines.

Just a thought.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Mattyk72;518728]JC made some comments pretty recently though long after Mix was outta here.[/quote]

Oh, missed those. Thought you were talking about their comments during training camp

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=freddyg12;518708]I hope!
I'm not trying to bash Vinny's choices. Well, maybe I am w/Kelly's knees if it's true that the med. staff red flagged it. I thought Thomas was a relative steal where we got him & was certainly worth taking a chance on. I do think it's obvious that the jury is still out on these guys. We didn't see enough in 08 to show us that they'll become playmakers.

I trust JLC's reporting about Thomas' behavior, as I don't think he would write it if he didn't have good info after a full season. Sounds like the guy has a lot of personal maturing to do, hope that he can do that here in DC & be at least a dependable starter for us.[/quote]The general rule of thumb for selecting an underclassman is this: "If player x were to play (hypothetically) his senior season, and post mediocre numbers relative to the offense he plays in, would we still draft him where we are drafting him now?"

And the answer on Thomas was a very obvious no. One great season followed up by a return to reality a second round receiver does not make. The assumption that a year he started as Michigan State's second target, and caught a bunch of people by surprise en route to a 100+ reception season (literally out of no where), and this was a reflection of his actual value was nothing but wishful thinking and poor evaluation by the draft analysts, who tried to use the combine numbers to justify the poor reasoning.

Malcolm Kelly, on the other hand, is probably still a top two round selection in 2009 simply by virtue of staying healthy for 12 games in 2008. So, health aside, Kelly passes the hypothetical above.

And obviously, as a Senior, Fred Davis doesn't apply because he played out his eligibility, and gave us a pretty good idea who he was coming out of the draft. I'm not sure that he screamed first round prospect, but Davis has in no way underachieved in his first season, IMO.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;518750]Was Antonio Bryant available last year? He was a beast for Tampa Bay and they only had to pay the veteran minimum to get him. A guy like him is all the Skins needed last year. I know he's had his issues, but if they got him they could have used their picks to beef up the lines.

Just a thought.[/quote]We should have gotten Bryant instead of Lloyd. Al Saunders' biggest mistake in the NFL to date.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;518748]Wide Receiver seems like such a situational position to me. Kelly could have probably gone to Denver and put up the same stats as Eddie Royal, Thomas could have probably gone to Philly and produced like DeSean Jackson and DeSean Jackson could have come here and been inactive most of the year (due to poor attitude and excessive clubbing). Hardy's got talent, but the Bills offense might be as dysfunctional as ours.

It just seems that WR stats fluctuate wildly based on circumstance. Look when Welker goes to NE, Moss goes to Oakland, Roddy White gets a new QB, Santana is all over the map, etc.)

I just find it hard to believe that we whiffed completely on Kelly, Thomas and Davis. With our offense being one of the worst in the league, I don't see how we could have done any worse with those guys on the field. And like I've said many times, there are ways to move the ball and score points without relying heavily on receivers (San Diego, Miami, Baltimore, KC, for many years, etc.).

I'm more inclined to point to other factors, such as poor coaching and development, poor pass protection and/or poor QB play (hard to tell for sure what's to blame), and poor play calling.

And it's not just with rookies. We take guys like Brandon Lloyd and David Patten and get little to no production out of them (New Orleans and Chicago got at least marginal production from both of them). There are systemic problems with the Skins than supercede any deficiencies with the players.[/quote]

Great post. IMO it comes right down to some of the things you mentioned. Poor coaching/ play calling, up and down QB play. Davis was the best TE in college last year yet we can't even get him on the field. Then I watch Philly over the weekend and McNabb is throwing to some TE that I've never seen or heard of.

While I was watching the Philly game and really could not believe that McNabb gets it done with the current group... guys like Curtis, Avery, Brown, Jackson and some no name TE. Actually I think Jackson is the best of the group and he's a rookie. And Reid has so much confidence in McNabb that he's calling pass plays from shotgun on their own 3 yard line. After watching Philly over the weekend I'd almost be more inclined to fire Zorn if I were Snyder.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

package EL & BETTS in a trade for draft picks.

and heavily pursue TJ

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=skinsfan69;518803] And Reid has so much confidence in McNabb that he's calling pass plays from shotgun on their own 3 yard line[/quote]

Confidence in the [B][U]pass protection[/U][/B].

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

44Deezel, I agree with everything you said in your earlier post. Your #3 was in regards to the RB's being used to catch balls. I was confused the whole time Gibbs was here and was slightly confused this year as to why we didn't use it more. Especially with teams like the Giants who have a good D-line and pass rush with their LB's. I could not figure out why we were not running the RB around to get behind the LB's and throw a short pass to them and allow them to gain YAC.

Your #4 was in refernce to having a 2-3 back system. We already have 3 backs. I for one don't understand why we didn't use more split formations or off set formations. We mostly used I-formation and it was with Sellers or Cooley as a lead blocker. When we did use split or off set formations they stayed in the back field and blocked.

You also mentioned this:
[B]The Skins had less pass interference calls than any other team in the league and couldn't outscore the first team to go 0-16. Maybe if Zorn gave Campbell the green light to take more chances, he would be more willing to throw into tight coverage. This would solve his problem of holding onto the ball too long. Single coverage is open in the NFL.

The bottom line is that the wide receivers aren't the problem. Most of the biggest and baddest receivers in the game will be sitting this year's Super Bowl out while a guy like Ricky Sanders or Deion Brach could very well be the difference maker.[/B]

I really don't know why we didn't try and go long more often. I felt it might create some situations where we would get pass interference call pushing us closer to the goal line.

You mentioned that we had small WR's in Gibbs first term...ie; the smurfs. I recall those years. I truely believe we don't need any tall WR's but they are nice to have. Keep in mind we probably had one of the best WR's coach in those days. Hixon was pulled from the college ranks by Gibbs. He was liked cause he did so well in the college ranks. I have no problem with them trying him and if he has done more then he has I would be defending him, but he has not. I feel it's time to move on from that expierment and get a qualified WR's coach. I totaly agree with you in regards to Lloyd and Patten. Then there has been all the WR's we have picked up from the draft usually late round and probably would not amount to much anyway but Hixon should have been able to find a servicable WR in the 5 yrs he's been here to develope. He has not. All go on the practice squad and then get let go. Our best WR's are Moss, ARE and Thrash. All three trained elsewhere prior to coming here. I think thats the ony reason they are any good. I'm not sure if it's the way Hixon is wanting them to run their routes or his lack of coaching them to get open and get the ball but we have had problems since he has been here. We keep hearing how our WR's can't get open, can't get off the line, don't run good routes, screw up the routes, and forget their assignments. I honestly believe thats a reflection of the position coach, Hixon. I think Zorn needs to bring someone else in that has talent in developing WR's and building QB/WR combinations. I really don't care who it is but we have no WR's worth a darn waiting in the wings because of lack of develpement and the WR's we do have show lack of production. Time for a change.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=skinsfan69;518803] And [B]Reid has so much confidence in McNabb[/B] that he's calling pass plays from shotgun on their own 3 yard line. After watching Philly over the weekend [B]I'd almost be more inclined to fire Zorn if I were Snyder[/B].[/quote]
Why does Reid have confidence in McNabb(if he does) because he has been with him forever. I would think that the Eagles resurgence would give more proof that time and patience are what Zorn/Campbell needs, not a quick firing.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Reid throws all the time at the goal line and third and short because he has no power running game. There was that debacle earlier in the season where the opposing defense had a goal line stand because he called to run plays in a row and couldn't get in.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;518866]Why does Reid have confidence in McNabb(if he does) because he has been with him forever. I would think that the Eagles resurgence would give more proof that time and patience are what Zorn/Campbell needs, not a quick firing.[/quote]

Yeah seriously, Reid and McNabb have been together forever now. There's a reason why their offense functions at the level that it does. Constant firing of coaches and changing QBs gets you nowhere.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Here is just a tought. Zorn comes here and has to build a playbook and also teach it to our players. He spends most of his time concerned with our starters learning the plays first and then sometime with back ups and rookies (remember no one knows the play book). We start the season and things look pretty good so they keep working with the starters and getting them ready for the games and adding new plays. While things are working great the time is spent with the starters and not the back ups and/or rookies (remember players are still learning the play book). So we are now 8 games into the season and it seems everything is going better than planned but things then start to go wrong. We are also now limited to who we can start or play because all the time was needed to get the starters up to speed in Zorns O. So now when teams have figured out how to stop the Skins we really did not have a plan B because we never had a chance to get them into the system.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=firstdown;518907]Here is just a tought. Zorn comes here and has to build a playbook and also teach it to our players. He spends most of his time concerned with our starters learning the plays first and then sometime with back ups and rookies (remember no one knows the play book). We start the season and things look pretty good so they keep working with the starters and getting them ready for the games and adding new plays. While things are working great the time is spent with the starters and not the back ups and/or rookies (remember players are still learning the play book). So we are now 8 games into the season and it seems everything is going better than planned but things then start to go wrong. We are also now limited to who we can start or play because all the time was needed to get the starters up to speed in Zorns O. So now when teams have figured out how to stop the Skins we really did not have a plan B because we never had a chance to get them into the system.[/quote]

This makes some sense, but I would guess that the rooks got some time w/the 1st unit, especially in 3 & 4 wr sets. Your point also is that the players need hands on training, which I'm sure they do in a new system. However, that doesn't mean everyone's not expected to come to practice prepared, i.e. in shape & knowing the plays (from a knowledge standpoint of the playbook at least). Zorn said these guys weren't in shape & if what JLC says is true, they didn't have a good grasp of the offense throughout the year as well.

Thomas got plenty of playing time as the season went on. That last pick in the Pitt game, JLC said was Thomas' fault for running the route poorly. Don't know if that's true, but regardless, he either wasn't getting open on most plays, JC didn't see him often, or JC didn't look his way much for lack of trust. Whatever the conclusion, at this point I don't see how anyone could say he had a good rookie year. Let's hope he comes to ota's & camp ready to work & takes ARE's starting spot.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Jason Campbell made a comment about how James Thrash was "always in the right place, never misses an assignment" when someone was talking to him about his WR's. Don't remember exactly, but it seemed like he was explaining why Thrash was on the field in crucial situations instead of the rookie "playmakers". What I heard was Jason Campbell calling someone out (you know who you are Devin) for acting like learning the playbook and route running is to hard even though the old man (Thrash) can do it with no problem.

Until these guys wake up and accept that they have to think, use thier own brain, and apply themselves they won't ever be any more than "potentially" good.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Hakeem Nicks, WR, North Carolina.

As bad as we need help on both lines of scrimmage, I've seen this guy play all year and he's a bona fide play maker. Looks like a young T.O. with better hands. This guy runs like a deer, had 68 catches -1222 yards - 18.0 average per reception - and 12 touch downs last season, his junior year.

I covet him for the burgundy and gold.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=shack;518921]Hakeem Nicks, WR, North Carolina.

As bad as we need help on both lines of scrimmage, I've seen this guy play all year and he's a bona fide play maker. Looks like a young T.O. with better hands. This guy runs like a deer, had 68 catches -1222 yards - 18.0 average per reception - and 12 touch downs last season, his junior year.

I covet him for the burgundy and gold.[/quote]

He's a freak for sure. Too bad we blew our wad on pass catchers last season.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=GoSkins!;518919]Jason Campbell made a comment about how James Thrash was "always in the right place, never misses an assignment" when someone was talking to him about his WR's. Don't remember exactly, but it seemed like he was explaining why Thrash was on the field in crucial situations instead of the rookie "playmakers". What I heard was Jason Campbell calling someone out (you know who you are Devin) for acting like learning the playbook and route running is to hard even though the old man (Thrash) can do it with no problem.

Until these guys wake up and accept that they have to think, use thier own brain, and apply themselves they won't ever be any more than "potentially" good.[/quote]

Wow, and he could only get him 9 recp. for the year.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SBXVII;517100]Also for those of you who wanted the Skins to pick up Marcus Monk(including myself) it shows he was cut from the Giants roster on NFL.com. Anyone still want a 6-4 212 WR? Also Mix is still available and he was supposed to be the next Burress.[/quote] Did Mix shot himself to? Got to be like Burress!

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=RedskinPete;518951]Did Mix shot himself to? Got to be like Burress![/quote]

Oh boy. :doh:

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=RedskinPete;518951]Did Mix shot himself to? Got to be like Burress![/quote]

Lame dude.



PS. It's shoot not shot.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Gonna sound a little corny but I think the WR situation @ Redskins Park requires some very effective communication. First to Thomas. WTF "i'm a rookie who got drafted earlier than I should have but now want to take a break from the game." The entire braintrust from Danny/Vinny to Zorn/Hixon (or whoever should replace Hixon) ought to sit him down and thoroughly make a psych evaluation. If DT is really "burnt out" and unwilling to totally commit to a rigorous offseason working w/ JC (who we all know will spend the time) and commit to OTAs etc... then I honestly believe we ought to cut him yesterday and go get someone. Whatever potential he's got, which may be elite for all we know, won't mean shit unless he works hard, based on his struggles w/ routes/playbook/everything thus far. Pretty simple IMO.

Kelly's situation is different because it requires frankness with/from the medical staff and trainers. If his knees look like the degenerative type one has to seriously question whether he's worth the massive investment of time/resources for what would be a short career. Or maybe his knees are healing and he'll be ready. The powers that be have to know for sure and make some wise decisions on Kelly.

Davis looks more promising IMO than his two colleagues at this point, though the braintrust probably needs to consistently communicate (maybe demand) effort in the offseason and OTAs.

I think WR looks more precarious now than it has in several years. The best 16 or so defenses seem to have our number when Moss/El are on the field together. New talent seems essential and our best two roster prospects have huge question marks looming.

While I don't think anything will ever come of it, if by chance Thomas and Kelly are draft busts there would no longer be a reasonable argument for Vinny C keeping his job (or probably any job with any franchise for that matter). But like I said, he's got nothing to worry about.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Agree for the most part Goat

I'm not sure why we took Kelly honestly.. he could be electric but his knee issues were already well known, I would've rather taken someone with good NFL skills but maybe not as big of a name and taken a slightly bigger gamble.. hopefully I can come back to eat those words, but if he has one rebuilt knee and the other is arthritic.. kinda hard to imagine that

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=30gut;518859]Confidence in the [B][U]pass protection[/U][/B].[/quote]

Their O line ain't all that. McNabb always has people in his face. Let's not pretend that every QB in the league has all day to throw while JC gets gang tackled on every pass play.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;518866]Why does Reid have confidence in McNabb(if he does) because he has been with him forever. I would think that the Eagles resurgence would give more proof that time and patience are what Zorn/Campbell needs, not a quick firing.[/quote]

The Eagles went 11-5 in McNabb's first full season as a starter. Reid was in his second year in Philly.

McNabb had 21 TDs and 13 INTs that year and he rushed for 629 yards and 6 TDs.

Reid's teams have gone to the playoffs 11 times in 14 years as a head coach.

Campbell has 36 starts under his belt.

There were rookie coaches that had confidence in rookie QBs this year. If Zorn can't get creative on offense, because he doesn't have confidence in Campbell YET, then something's wrong and more games isn't going to fix it.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=The Goat;519009]Gonna sound a little corny but I think the WR situation @ Redskins Park requires some very effective communication. First to Thomas. WTF "i'm a rookie who got drafted earlier than I should have but now want to take a break from the game." The entire braintrust from Danny/Vinny to Zorn/Hixon (or whoever should replace Hixon) ought to sit him down and thoroughly make a psych evaluation. If DT is really "burnt out" and unwilling to totally commit to a rigorous offseason working w/ JC (who we all know will spend the time) and commit to OTAs etc... then I honestly believe we ought to cut him yesterday and go get someone. Whatever potential he's got, which may be elite for all we know, won't mean shit unless he works hard, based on his struggles w/ routes/playbook/everything thus far. Pretty simple IMO.

Kelly's situation is different because it requires frankness with/from the medical staff and trainers. If his knees look like the degenerative type one has to seriously question whether he's worth the massive investment of time/resources for what would be a short career. Or maybe his knees are healing and he'll be ready. The powers that be have to know for sure and make some wise decisions on Kelly.

Davis looks more promising IMO than his two colleagues at this point, though the braintrust probably needs to consistently communicate (maybe demand) effort in the offseason and OTAs.

I think WR looks more precarious now than it has in several years. The best 16 or so defenses seem to have our number when Moss/El are on the field together. New talent seems essential and our best two roster prospects have huge question marks looming.

While I don't think anything will ever come of it, if by chance Thomas and Kelly are draft busts there would no longer be a reasonable argument for Vinny C keeping his job (or probably any job with any franchise for that matter). But like I said, he's got nothing to worry about.[/quote]

RE: Thomas. Where are the leaders on this team? Imagine if the Ravens used a second round pick on a linebacker who said he needed a break. What do you think Ray Lewis would do? Think the coaches would need to sit that guy down?

Who's our high-paid veteran leader on offense? Portis? Please.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=tryfuhl;519012]Agree for the most part Goat

I'm not sure why we took Kelly honestly.. he could be electric but his knee issues were already well known, I would've rather taken someone with good NFL skills but maybe not as big of a name and taken a slightly bigger gamble.. hopefully I can come back to eat those words, but if he has one rebuilt knee and the other is arthritic.. kinda hard to imagine that[/quote]

Yeah Kelly doesn't seem like a wise pick where we sit today, however the '08 draft class overall looks less than stellar IMO (i know that's way too general to really back up but outside 2 good QBs, a few good WR/TE/RB, three o-lineman and a small group of defensive players like Mayo there's not a whole lot to have fallen in love w/ from last year). Still, as a franchise you've got to make strides w/ the hand your dealt and we don't look to have played our cards well in the '08 draft considering the opportunity cost of Thomas/Kelly if they're busts.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;519028]RE: Thomas. Where are the leaders on this team? Imagine if the Ravens used a second round pick on a linebacker who said he needed a break. What do you think Ray Lewis would do? Think the coaches would need to sit that guy down?

Who's our high-paid veteran leader on offense? Portis? Please.[/quote]

Excellent point. You're right about CP on leadership. As much as I admire him as a pure baller he is not a real leader. JC is becoming the leader on offense from what I see, but with DT being a WR it should be Moss (or maybe ARL) to straighten him out. I wonder if either vet has really tried to mentor him in a serious way and how he's responded.

To answer your question about what Lewis would do... bad things man, bad things.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Well, maybe JLC was right about DT. I talked to some of my media friends down in DC who cover the Redskins and they told Thomas was a pain to deal with in the locker room. A lot of "It's time for you guys to get out of here" even when the reporters weren't even around him (which was more often than not). It's not something he can't grow out of though, others in the past were like this and changed. Still, his biggest problem isn't the attitude, it's understanding the routes. They said the other teammates don't dislike him or anything like that, they just want him to grow up...now.

On the other hand, they love, love, love, love Kelly. Reporters, players, coaches. Great personality, fun to be around, loads of potential. Just has to stay healthy.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;519027]The Eagles went 11-5 in McNabb's first full season as a starter. Reid was in his second year in Philly.

McNabb had 21 TDs and 13 INTs that year and he rushed for 629 yards and 6 TDs.

Reid's teams have gone to the playoffs 11 times in 14 years as a head coach.

Campbell has 36 starts under his belt.

There were rookie coaches that had confidence in rookie QBs this year. [B] If Zorn can't get creative on offense, because he doesn't have confidence in Campbell YET[/B], then something's wrong and more games isn't going to fix it.[/quote]
I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I think Zorn had confidence in Campbell, and that is why we became more pass oriented. My point about time is that time brings "intimacy". A newly married couple may be confident in each other's love and have strong beliefs about how the other will act. BUT a couple who has been married 7 yrs or more have an intimacy of knowledge as to what each will do, and they work more as a unit (in a perfect world obviously).

That may not be a perfect analogy, and in football we are talking months not years, but as Zorn and Campbell work together, and the rest of the team around them, the depth and available options should only increase. Yes there have been some rookie hc's that were more successful, but I'm pretty sure I could with little effort cite examples of rookie hc's that were far less successful.

Finally, my main point was that in the Dan Snyder era, we have constantly changed system/coach/qb thus never letting the "intimacy" of a system develop. So if the Eagles win shows anything to Dan I would hope it would be that you don't have to scrap everything when you hit harder times.

For the record, McNabb may have gone 11-5 his first full year, but how many times has he failed in reaching the playoffs/superbowl; ask yourself, would the old Dan Snyder be patient with THAT number? Would Andy Reid still have a job? or what about Eli Manning and Tom Coughlin?

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;519060]Well, maybe JLC was right about DT. I talked to some of my media friends down in DC who cover the Redskins and they told Thomas was a pain to deal with in the locker room. A lot of "It's time for you guys to get out of here" even when the reporters weren't even around him (which was more often than not). It's not something he can't grow out of though, others in the past were like this and changed. Still, his biggest problem isn't the attitude, it's understanding the routes. They said the other teammates don't dislike him or anything like that, they just want him to grow up...now.

[B]On the other hand, they love, love, love, love Kelly. Reporters, players, coaches. Great personality, fun to be around, loads of potential. Just has to stay healthy.[/B][/quote]

Def a piece of good news for all Skins fans. Doctors/trainers can work miracles anymore w/ our bodies too so i'm staying positive on MK.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I don't see Kelly really getting going until his third season here, but I think the passing game is going to make leaps and bounds with the guys it already has next year.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=GTripp0012;519140]I don't see Kelly really getting going until his third season here, but I think the passing game is going to make leaps and bounds with the guys it already has next year.[/quote]

I think it could be as well. The Skins had weapons, but didn't use them effectively (or at all in some cases). The backs were almost non-existent in the passing game, the rookies couldn't get on the field and pass protection was shaky at times, although I think they could have schemed better to compensate for any weaknesses in the O line. They really only had trouble blocking the better defenses, like the Ravens, Giants, Steelers and Cowboys. Can't blame pass protection for the losses to the Bungles, Rams and 49ers.

I'm optimistic that the coaches will be better, because they can't be any worse, and that the young guys emerge. They only need a middle of the pack offense to be a playoff team, assuming the defense remaints stout. Better offense makes for better defense anyway.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;519065]I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I think Zorn had confidence in Campbell, and that is why we became more pass oriented. My point about time is that time brings "intimacy". A newly married couple may be confident in each other's love and have strong beliefs about how the other will act. BUT a couple who has been married 7 yrs or more have an intimacy of knowledge as to what each will do, and they work more as a unit (in a perfect world obviously).

That may not be a perfect analogy, and in football we are talking months not years, but as Zorn and Campbell work together, and the rest of the team around them, the depth and available options should only increase. Yes there have been some rookie hc's that were more successful, but I'm pretty sure I could with little effort cite examples of rookie hc's that were far less successful.

Finally, my main point was that in the Dan Snyder era, we have constantly changed system/coach/qb thus never letting the "intimacy" of a system develop. So if the Eagles win shows anything to Dan I would hope it would be that you don't have to scrap everything when you hit harder times.

[B]For the record, McNabb may have gone 11-5 his first full year, but how many times has he failed in reaching the playoffs/superbowl;[/B] ask yourself, would the old Dan Snyder be patient with THAT number? Would Andy Reid still have a job? or what about Eli Manning and Tom Coughlin?[/quote]

Not many times and yes, as bad an owner DS is, I think he'd be thrilled with Reid and McNabb's track record. McNabb went to 4 conference championships in a row and a Super Bowl. He's generally been a very productive QB and still takes as much or more criticism than Campbell.

But I hear you. DS has been a failure as an owner. I won't argue that.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

^Can't get any worse? does Detroit ring a bell?...0-16. I think we will be better next year though. Atleast I'm trying to hold out hope. I still would like to see the team bring in new young WR's and call it open camp or what ever. Make known the only jobs not on the line are Moss and ARE. Scare Thomas and Kelly into working their arsses off and then hope that some decent young talent comes out of it for the future.

Oh and get a new WR's coach.