Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Mattyk72;523015]Yes for one season he was clearly the one calling the shots. In the past it was never clear if it was him, Snyder, Gibbs, Snyder's father, the janitor, etc.[/quote]

I don't see how there can be any doubt about what Cerrato's role is with the Redskins no matter what job title he's had. Between 2004-2007, when Joe Gibbs was Team President, the man most directly responsible for players added to the roster was Vinny Cerrato. How do we know this? Because Vinny has always dealt with the personnel aspect of football. Joe Gibbs knew Vinny's background, and decided to keep him in the front office.

If nothing else, Gibbs was a delegator. He knew what his own strengths and weaknesses were. I just don't see why it is such a mystery as to what the roles were in the area of player-personnel. Clearly, Vinny's job -- as it always has been -- was to assemble the film of all prospects, college or pro, grade each player, and come to Gibbs with a list of what he felt were the best players. Gibbs simply selected from that list. Yes, Gibbs had the ultimate say about which players to select. But, and this is key -- who supplied him the list?

Before Gibbs, during the Spurrier era, Vinny had the same role with even more authority. Prior to Spurrier, it was clear that Lil' Danny had his wish list. So in that instance, Vinny likely had no say one way or the other.

So again, I don't understand why some people find this situation so murky. When you look at the main components of a football organization, there's coaching, there's cap management, there's ownership/administrative duties, and then there's the player-personnel department. Apart from 2001 when Marty Schottenheimer fired Cerrato, no one during Lil' Danny's ownership of the team had more input in the realm of player-personnel than Vinny Cerrato.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Mattyk72;523066]It's hard to blame the last 10 years on him when we don't even know the extent of his involvement in personnel decisions. Only Snyder really knows that. To me beginning last year was day 1 of the Vinny era and it's only fair to judge him from then forward.[/quote]

Well, for one VC has admitted he made a mistake w/ the whole AA saga and some of the other poor FA pickups. A huge mistake. He should be fired just for that decision.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=redsk1;523071]Well, for one VC has admitted he made a mistake w/ the whole AA saga and some of the other poor FA pickups. A huge mistake. He should be fired just for that decision.[/quote]

Exactly -- how nice would it have been to have LaRon Landry and Ryan Clark in the safety spots?

But no. We chose Adam Archuleta over Ryan Clark. If you had to rank all of the boneheaded moves by our front orifice, that's got to be #1.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Beemnseven;523070]If nothing else, Gibbs was a delegator. He knew what his own strengths and weaknesses were. I just don't see why it is such a mystery as to what the roles were in the area of player-personnel. Clearly, Vinny's job -- as it always has been -- was to assemble the film of all prospects, college or pro, grade each player, and come to Gibbs with a list of what he felt were the best players. Gibbs simply selected from that list. Yes, Gibbs had the ultimate say about which players to select. But, and this is key -- who supplied him the list?[/quote]

Where did you hear that?

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Beemnseven;523070]I don't see how there can be any doubt about what Cerrato's role is with the Redskins no matter what job title he's had. Between 2004-2007, when Joe Gibbs was Team President, the man most directly responsible for players added to the roster was Vinny Cerrato. How do we know this? Because Vinny has always dealt with the personnel aspect of football. Joe Gibbs knew Vinny's background, and decided to keep him in the front office.

If nothing else, Gibbs was a delegator. He knew what his own strengths and weaknesses were. I just don't see why it is such a mystery as to what the roles were in the area of player-personnel. Clearly, Vinny's job -- as it always has been -- was to assemble the film of all prospects, college or pro, grade each player, and come to Gibbs with a list of what he felt were the best players. Gibbs simply selected from that list. Yes, Gibbs had the ultimate say about which players to select. But, and this is key -- who supplied him the list?

Before Gibbs, during the Spurrier era, Vinny had the same role with even more authority. Prior to Spurrier, it was clear that Lil' Danny had his wish list. So in that instance, Vinny likely had no say one way or the other.

So again, I don't understand why some people find this situation so murky. When you look at the main components of a football organization, there's coaching, there's cap management, there's ownership/administrative duties, and then there's the player-personnel department. Apart from 2001 when Marty Schottenheimer fired Cerrato, no one during Lil' Danny's ownership of the team had more input in the realm of player-personnel than Vinny Cerrato.[/quote]

Based on what I know Vinny didn't make 100% of the personnel decisions prior to last year, not even close in fact. There's always been a committee approach involved and Snyder was always the tie breaker. The level of Vinny's input varied from decision to decision, but I'm glad your crystal ball is so clear.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Beemnseven;523070]I don't see how there can be any doubt about what Cerrato's role is with the Redskins no matter what job title he's had. Between 2004-2007, when Joe Gibbs was Team President, the man most directly responsible for players added to the roster was Vinny Cerrato. How do we know this? Because Vinny has always dealt with the personnel aspect of football. Joe Gibbs knew Vinny's background, and decided to keep him in the front office.

If nothing else, Gibbs was a delegator. He knew what his own strengths and weaknesses were. I just don't see why it is such a mystery as to what the roles were in the area of player-personnel. Clearly, Vinny's job -- as it always has been -- was to assemble the film of all prospects, college or pro, grade each player, and come to Gibbs with a list of what he felt were the best players. Gibbs simply selected from that list. Yes, Gibbs had the ultimate say about which players to select. But, and this is key -- who supplied him the list?

Before Gibbs, during the Spurrier era, Vinny had the same role with even more authority. Prior to Spurrier, it was clear that Lil' Danny had his wish list. So in that instance, Vinny likely had no say one way or the other.

So again, I don't understand why some people find this situation so murky. When you look at the main components of a football organization, there's coaching, there's cap management, there's ownership/administrative duties, and then there's the player-personnel department. Apart from 2001 when Marty Schottenheimer fired Cerrato, no one during Lil' Danny's ownership of the team had more input in the realm of player-personnel than Vinny Cerrato.[/quote]

I agree 100%. I have nothing against Vinny personally, but as I said before I just don't believe he has been held to the same results oriented standards that everyone else in the Redskins organization has been for the last 10+ years. And if I really believed that this is year 2 of a 4 year window that he had to produce or else I would probably be more patient. However, history says that is not the case and if they don't win he will just be repackaged in a new role alongside another high profile coach. Basically, I will believe that Vinny is accountable when I see Snyder stand up like a man and fire him...

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Mattyk72;523075]Based on what I know Vinny didn't make 100% of the personnel decisions prior to last year, not even close in fact. There's always been a committee approach involved and Snyder was always the tie breaker. The level of Vinny's input varied from decision to decision, but I'm glad your crystal ball is so clear.[/quote]

My interpritation of Beems post was that even though Vinny did not have final call on players, he prepared the reports and grades on many of the players that Gibbs or Snyder chose between. Gibbs and Spurrier were coaches not scouts...they had to rely on someone to compile the lists of possible targets. I don't think the Redskins even deny that Vinny had a key role in that process. Gibbs credited Vinny often when talking about a player they aquired. I don't blame vinny for every bad decison of the last 10 years, but I do believe he has played a significant role in the redskins personel decisions since Snyder purchase the team, so in my eyes we can never have a clean start as long as he is a part of it.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=celts32;523082]My interpritation of Beems post was that even though Vinny did not have final call on players, he prepared the reports and grades on many of the players that Gibbs or Snyder chose between. Gibbs and Spurrier were coaches not scouts...they had to rely on someone to compile the lists of possible targets. I don't think the Redskins even deny that Vinny had a key role in that process. Gibbs credited Vinny often when talking about a player they aquired. I don't blame vinny for every bad decison of the last 10 years, but I do believe he has played a significant role in the redskins personel decisions since Snyder purchase the team, so in my eyes we can never have a clean start as long as he is a part of it.[/quote]

Ok I can see what you're saying

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=celts32;523082]My interpritation of Beems post was that even though Vinny did not have final call on players, he prepared the reports and grades on many of the players that Gibbs or Snyder chose between. Gibbs and Spurrier were coaches not scouts...they had to rely on someone to compile the lists of possible targets. I don't think the Redskins even deny that Vinny had a key role in that process. Gibbs credited Vinny often when talking about a player they aquired. I don't blame vinny for every bad decison of the last 10 years, but I do believe he has played a significant role in the redskins personel decisions since Snyder purchase the team, so in my eyes we can never have a clean start as long as he is a part of it.[/quote]

Very good point. However we'll likely never know how many times Vinny provided a good recommendation that they declined to follow up on. Wilbon has always said that the team would be better off if it had listened to him more over the years. Don't know if he has any specific references to back that up though.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

The issue with the redskins is not Vinny Cerrato - it's a lack of real leadership. Right now, snyder wings it too much with important decisions. He's a spur-of-the-moment type of guy and doesn't plan enough. This is fine as an owner, but not good with the type of involvement he has with the organization. And he definitely cannot lead this organization with his type of attitude. Cerrato is fine for what does, but there needs to be someone there that has a plan and stays committed to and confident in that plan. A plan that the leader believes in. How can the players and anyone in the redskins organization believe in the team, if there isn't anyone there that can lead them with a plan and direction that they believe in?

Snyder for all of his passion and energy he has for the team, cannot be the ONE. He needs someone else to do this and just let himself be Dan Snyder.

The problem is two-fold and also a double-edged sword.
1. Major issues with the team are handled and decided in certain ways and policies, decided by Snyder. And after a small amount of time, when these ways or policies don't seem to be working - then a major change of direction is decided on by Snyder because the old ways don't seem to be working.
2. The players and individuals in the redskins organization cannot believe or stay committed to a way of doing things because a change of direction always seems to be right around the corner. And this lack of commitment makes everything that is attempted - to not work.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

Vinny Cerratto has been here longer than any current FO person in the organization. I would venture to say since Bubba Tyer left, VC is probably the longest tenured employee in the current Redskins staff, since Snyder became owner.
Matty, I understand your point that there was no [B]one[/B] person at the wheel of this franchise, but Vinny is not exempt of some form responsibility for the last 10 years. It is overly generous of you to wipe the slate clean for Vinny and claim 2008 is year 1. You can choose to do that, but I respectfully will agree to disagree with you. Vinny was never a lowly scout of division 2 college ball for the Skins. Vinny had a [B]big boy seat right next to Snyder[/B] and the HC at the planning table. If you do not agree let me know.
Skins rank 23rd out of 32 teams in wins since 2000. Some of that has to stick to teflon Cerratto.
IMO Snyder will never fire Vinny. Never.
If Snyder no longer wants him running player personnel he will move him to another position.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

It would be really cool if Cerrato wanting more draft picks meant he was going to make smart draft decisions. To bad he has no idea not to go for big splashs any time he can instead of building depth which we had to wait until it's become blatanlty obvious.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

It would also be even cooler if we got a GM, then we wouldn't have to speculate on Cerrato's insane running of this team.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=celts32;523082]My interpritation of Beems post was that even though Vinny did not have final call on players, he prepared the reports and grades on many of the players that Gibbs or Snyder chose between. Gibbs and Spurrier were coaches not scouts...they had to rely on someone to compile the lists of possible targets. I don't think the Redskins even deny that Vinny had a key role in that process. Gibbs credited Vinny often when talking about a player they aquired. I don't blame vinny for every bad decison of the last 10 years, but I do believe he has played a significant role in the redskins personel decisions since Snyder purchase the team, so in my eyes we can never have a clean start as long as he is a part of it.[/quote]

Thank you. Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=SmootSmack;523074]Where did you hear that?[/quote]

It's not about what I've "heard" or haven't heard. We know this is Vinny's role. His whole career has centered on the player-personnel aspect of football.

Do you deny that Vinny has been responsible for the department that assembles and grades the reports on college and pro prospects? Is it your position that Cerrato has had nothing at all to do with duties of the scouting department?

This isn't about crystal balls or hearsay. It's about gathering the information we know about Cerrato's role with the team as head of the player-personnel, and drawing the conclusion that he sucks at it.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Beemnseven;523168]It's not about what I've "heard" or haven't heard. We know this is Vinny's role. His whole career has centered on the player-personnel aspect of football.

Do you deny that Vinny has been responsible for the department that assembles and grades the reports on college and pro prospects? Is it your position that Cerrato has had nothing at all to do with duties of the scouting department?

This isn't about crystal balls or hearsay. It's about gathering the information we know about Cerrato's role with the team as head of the player-personnel, and drawing the conclusion that he sucks at it.[/quote]

Well here's my position

[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/523135-post23.html[/url]

As for what I think. I think it's evident this past season was the first season he had ultimate final authority. But no I don't think he had nothing to do with the duties of the scouting department or personnel decisions (good and bad), but the way you wrote it made it sound like Vinny was a one man band who just handed Gibbs a list of players he had picked and said "here choose one of these guys." It wasn't that simple.

In your original post you said Cerrato assembled the film and graded the players. In this one, you said he was responsible for the group that did the grading. That's a pretty big difference.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

Regardless of his role over the last 10 years - Cerrato has been the defacto GM this last season. Now he has his second draft and FA period to show what he can do. Zorn is also his choice of Head Coach and Jason Campbell is the QB he is backing.

Let's see where Vinny takes this ship. Personally, I see a continuation of the personnel choices from last season, which is to say a "back to front" approach for player decisions. No real big signings - Hall will be one of those. I also foresee a retention of many older players instead of the dropping them for a youth movement. Right now the only older vet player that I'm sure will be dumped is Marcus Washington, and maybe Springs.

I do not think that Vinny / Zorn will have more than a year or two to succeed. It will be too easy for Danny Snyder to dump one or both if we get another average season or two. Just my prediction.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

Below is an example of a team that builds thru the draft year in and year out. They don't always win but they contend. They have 10 picks, w/ 3 in the first 2 rounds. They made the NFC Championship game this year. Yes, the Eagles. I hate the Eagles, but hey they contend year in a year out. Imagine if this were us and we had an owner willing to sign a FA or two to fill in the holes. This organization wanted alot of picks in this years draft last year.

Pick

1. (1)

2. (1)

3. (2)

4. (3)

5. (4)

6. (5)

7. (5)

8. (6)

9. (6)

10. (7)



*Conditional pick for Luke Lawton

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

Saying Vinny wants more picks is like saying I want to win the powerball. Who doesn't want more picks, is there someone out there disgruntled because they have to many?

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

I want to marry a rich Brunette with big tits who owns a liquor store.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;523475]I want to marry a rich Brunette with big tits who owns a liquor store.[/quote]

Good for you. Great post!

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=redsk1;523416]Below is an example of a team that builds thru the draft year in and year out. They don't always win but they contend. They have 10 picks, w/ 3 in the first 2 rounds. They made the NFC Championship game this year. Yes, the Eagles. I hate the Eagles, but hey they contend year in a year out. Imagine if this were us and we had an owner willing to sign a FA or two to fill in the holes. This organization wanted alot of picks in this years draft last year.

Pick

1. (1)

2. (1)

3. (2)

4. (3)

5. (4)

6. (5)

7. (5)

8. (6)

9. (6)

10. (7)



*Conditional pick for Luke Lawton[/quote]

The Eagles have done a terrible job at giving McNabb a true #1 WR. Save for T.O., McNabb has never had a decent wideout and their only threat (a good one) is Westbrook. I think finally they've found a good wideout in DeSean Jackson, but both McNabb and Westbrook are injury prone.

Yes they've been a contender, although last year they sucked and this year they backed into the playoffs, but don't act like they are the Patriots or some other successful team.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

I just want people in DC to stop shooting each other so often, and I think getting a new GM will go a long way towards making my dream a reality.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;523475]I want to marry a rich Brunette with big tits who owns a liquor store.[/quote]
and a bass boat

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Hog1;523504]and a bass boat[/quote]

Hog why are you in Naples without a bass boat. Isn't that against the law down there? When I lived in SW Fl I did a ton of flats fishing. I really miss that.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Hog1;523504]and a bass boat[/quote]

with a Redskins cheerleading uniform lol

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Ijaeger;523508]with a Redskins cheerleading uniform lol[/quote]

Huh?

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[QUOTE=44ever;522736][url=http://www.examiner.com/x-450-Washington-Redskins-Examiner~y2009m1d18-Redskins-2008-part-2-Stumbling-through-the-draft]Washington Redskins Examiner: Redskins 2008 part 2: Stumbling through the draft[/url]

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

all of the comments here is backseat driving at it's best.to here some people talk on here you would thing that dan snyder or cuz viny don't want to win as bad as anyone.they have haven't learned ,like so many of us ,without the benefit of age and experience,that is patience.Look at all of the so called contenders history and you will so the they all have gone through some pretty lean years.Now I'm not for giving anyone a blank check, but when I've invested so many years in this team I like the rest have pushed my chips to the center of the table and went all in.No lecturing just saying ,remember the fo takes no joy from losing. love you all hail!!! redskins

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=bignell;523546]all of the comments here is backseat driving at it's best.to here some people talk on here you would thing that dan snyder or cuz viny don't want to win as bad as anyone.they have haven't learned ,like so many of us ,without the benefit of age and experience,that is patience.Look at all of the so called contenders history and you will so the they all have gone through some pretty lean years.Now I'm not for giving anyone a blank check, but when I've invested so many years in this team I like the rest have pushed my chips to the center of the table and went all in.No lecturing just saying ,remember the fo takes no joy from losing. love you all hail!!! redskins[/quote]

I think the front office has the best intentions, and you are correct, none of them like losing. I keep making the case that Snyder has somewhat changed from what he used to be in the past, a guy that wanted to buy his way into a Superbowl. I really don't know what next season is going to be like, given that the team has 4 draft picks and is stuck with a lot of old players that can't contribute. The FO can't fix their own mistakes overnight, so we may be in for a rought 2009 season.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Ruhskins;523486]The Eagles have done a terrible job at giving McNabb a true #1 WR. Save for T.O., McNabb has never had a decent wideout and their only threat (a good one) is Westbrook. I think finally they've found a good wideout in DeSean Jackson, but both McNabb and Westbrook are injury prone.

Yes they've been a contender, although last year they sucked and this year they backed into the playoffs, but don't act like they are the Patriots or some other successful team.[/quote]

No, the point was to compare their team building strategy to ours. They have 10 picks in the draft vs our 4. They thought about this years draft last year. They believe in building thru the draft and are pretty successful. They've been in the championship game i believe 5 out of 7 years. Have we been to one? When was the last time? 91?

My point is..could you imagine if we had a similar strategy AND had an owner willing to add a FA or two? We have all the resources to do just that.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

Why does he want more picks? Is he going to pick a punter [B][U]and[/U][/B] a kicker this April?

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;523475]I want to marry a rich Brunette with big tits who owns a liquor store.[/quote]

That's the real American dream right there.