Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=Nflnick11;534455]A) [B]Elton Brown isn't that good, he was a backup on the cardinals awful oline[/B]
B) Ray willis should be signed to a contract, Especially if all the good tackles will not be there at 13 like people are saying (especially on this site)
C) DONT WANT T O and right now not even the raiders want him...ouch!
Keep me posted on Willis[/quote]

You mean that awful offensive line that allowed only 28 sacks (protecting one of the most immobile QBs in the league) and played well against three top 15 sacking defenses (Atlanta, Carolina, and Philly) on its way to the Superbowl?

I know the Cards didn't have much of a running game (would you need to with Boldin and Fitz) but otherwise the offensive line did a good of job throughout the seasons and especially in the playoffs.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;534452]This is where I got my info from. If its not true, then its Elfin's fault:

[URL="http://blogs.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/14/interior-trio-anchors-redskins-offensive-line/"]Washington Times - Interior trio anchors Redskins' offensive line[/URL][/quote]Good read, thanks. Elfin's article is dated 11/14. That, I believe, was published just before the second Dallas game. Keep in mind, if we win that game (which we nearly did), we probably sneak into the playoffs by virtue of only needing to win one more game in the final month to have done so.

So we were 6-3 at the time this was penned. No one anywhere was writing anything bad about the Skins offensive line in general, much less about the offensive line yet. Keep that in mind.

For point of reference, here are my offensive game reviews for the prior 4 games, and for the Dallas game that happened shortly after Elfin's article:

Rams vs. Redskins
[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/26066-rams-skins-gt-review-offense.html[/URL]

Browns vs. Redskins
[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/26172-redskins-v-browns-offensive-gt-review.html[/URL]

Redskins vs. Lions (which I attended)
[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/26342-skins-lions-gt-review-offensive-version.html[/url]

Steelers vs. Redskins
[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/26491-steelers-redskins-offensive-gt-review.html[/URL]

and a vowel

Cowboys vs. Redskins
[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/26704-redskins-vs-cowboys-gt-review-recivers.html[/URL]

Note: I've yet to go back and read these, but I just want to see how often I made reference to Rabach struggling over this stretch of home games.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

I also remeber us getting sacks on them last year at least 2 or 3, and we were one of the worst sacking teams in the league, plus Arizona is a quicker passing team, with Recieving weapons MUCH better than ours IMO

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=smootsmack;534460]i think the market for a tackle in the 3rd round is rather bare this year (some good centers potentially though, antoine caldwell comes to mind), but it's kinda funny how some people here don't trust the front office to find a 3rd round talent to start on the line because of chad rinehart yet are gung-ho about dockery's return (apparently forgetting what round he was drafted).[/quote]

true....lol

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=Nflnick11;534466]I also remeber us getting sacks on them last year at least 2 or 3, and we were one of the worst sacking teams in the league, plus Arizona is a quicker passing team, with Recieving weapons MUCH better than ours IMO[/quote]

Yes but you should judge an offensive line on its ability to both run and pass block. As I said, that Arizona was not a great running team, but they they were very good in pass protection, giving up 28 sacks (tied for 11th in the league) and protecting Warner against tough defenses like Atlanta, Philly, and Carolina in the playoffs.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=That Guy;534424]i think willis may be getting pumped up a bit too much. i'm not sure he's really a HUGE upgrade over heyer, he's just the best of a (weak) OT market that may have some upside... still, he wouldn't be expensive, but if I wanted to draft an OT and we signed him, I wouldn't hesitate to draft an OT anyways.[/quote]

Willis to me is a very attractive option, more so then a lot of people seem to be giving him credit for. Anyway heres a few things that Willis brings to the table

[B]The Good[/B]

1. Size - Bugel has said in the past that as long as you give him players with size he'll be able to do the rest. Dockery is a testement to this as lots of people seem to forget how much Dock struggled early in his career. Then again even Samuals looked like a liability in Spurriers system. Anyway Willis definately has the size at 6'6 315 pounds.

2. Run Blocking - A must for any RT. In scouts evaluation of him, before he got to start 10 games, he was touted as a powerful run blocker that just needed to work on his footwork. Still he creates lanes and in the end thats what matters. I would say that he's probably a step below Jansen in terms of run blocking. Or at least 1st half of the season Jansen which brings me to my next point.

3. Age - At 26 Elton Brown is pretty much at his peak physically. On top of that he is more likely to maintain a high level of play throughout the season, where as a lot of our older lineman broke down last year during the strech.

4. Cost - Probably one of the main draws towards Willis. I think the estimates right now are about 3 millions a year which will probably end up being $1.5 million against the cap next year.

5. Production - The Seahawks two main runners were able to average over 4.3 YPC. Granted that Julius Jones and Maurice Morris are average at best I'd say those numbers end up working in favor of Willis.

6. Knowledge - All he'll have to learn is our run blocking schemes. Still he'll be pretty familiar with the terminology and will already have a grasp on the protection schemes Zorn wants to run.

7. Versatility - Should Rhinehart end up not being a starting quality player Willis will be more then ready to fill in at RG should Thomas go down. Ironically he might be better then Thomas at this point.

8. More Freedom Come Draft Day - Not that I'm opposed to taking a guy like Andre Smith should he fall, and given Vinny's run on pass catchers last year no one should discount the Vinny overkill factor. However the fact of the matter is we won't have to reach.

[B]The Bad
[/B]
1. Limited Experience - Granted he has 10 games of starting experience we can't say we know to much about him.

2. Pass Blocking - Definately an upgrade over Jansen but he doesn't have the feet, at least not yet, to be left alone on an island vs speed rushers so on that note he's not an option at LT should we lose Samuals (knock on wood). Some will point to the Dallas game as evidence that Willis struggles in pass protection but out of the 7 sacks Willis seemed to hold his own and was not one of the reasons the Cowboys were able to do that annoying turkey dance so often. To his credit he also allowed only 1.5 sacks last year so it's not like he's a liability. Just don't expect him to play LT short of an emergency.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;534361]No way Rabach is worse than Jansen, Heyer, Thomas or any of our backups. At worst, he was our third best lineman behind Kendall and Samuels. I'm not saying I think Rabach is a stud - Center needs to be upgraded... [B]its just the rest of our line is so bad.[/B] [B]I think Rabach would play better with Dockery and someone other than Thomas beside him... whereas i dont think Randy would benefit much from having a better RT and Center beside him.[/B]



Is that because you doubt Smiths ability or you have some supreme confidence in Willis?[/quote]

For the second time, let me clarify a few points again to youthat you don't understand. You said, "Rabach would play better with Dockery and someone other than Thomas" So your basacially saying Randy Thomas cannot play anymore, right? (Let me know if I'm mistaking your words) You then go on to say Thomas wouldn't benefit from having a new RT and C. [B]That's where I first disagree[/B]. It makes no sense to say Thomas wouldn't benefit to have 2 above average lineman playing next to him. Do you think Reinhardt do any better? Next point, I just don't get why you wouldn't even [B]look[/B] into Willis, let alone sign him. That part annoys me. Nobady's saying he's the best RT on earth, [B]but I do think he is better than Heyer at that position[/B]. I'm not going to argue about the rest of your post, but I will say this: You can your opinion and I can have mine. We can agree to disagree.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

I just read your sources about Rabach being in All pro at mid season BHA. I was wrong.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

Rabach is a mediocre if not worse NFL player. He pretty much stinks.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

I like Willis and Brown! Younger and are on the up side at a fare price. For this season Willis would be better then anyone in this draft. The long run is another story. I don't know if a top OT will fall to 13th pick. Now this draft has some great LB's and is so so on DE. At 13th pick some star LB's could be had. Picking up Willis and Brown would make for a stronger line. Here is the BIG thing...with only one pick in the first two rounds that hurts our chances of fill three spots. Yes you can trade down and get more picks but picking right on one pick would be great but filling two spots with rockies is just not going to happen. So if the team is going to be a Championship type team we must fill some spots with vets that can do the job a year or two or find younger guys that may make that big jump to a starter. Is Willis or Brown that type of guys? Maybe...That is why Vinny get's the big bucks and he and Danny need to find these kind of players to make this team great again!!!

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;534470]Willis to me is a very attractive option, more so then a lot of people seem to be giving him credit for. Anyway heres a few things that Willis brings to the table

[B]The Good[/B]

1. Size - Bugel has said in the past that as long as you give him players with size he'll be able to do the rest. Dockery is a testement to this as lots of people seem to forget how much Dock struggled early in his career. Then again even Samuals looked like a liability in Spurriers system. Anyway Willis definately has the size at 6'6 315 pounds.

2. Run Blocking - A must for any RT. In scouts evaluation of him, before he got to start 10 games, he was touted as a powerful run blocker that just needed to work on his footwork. Still he creates lanes and in the end thats what matters. I would say that he's probably a step below Jansen in terms of run blocking. Or at least 1st half of the season Jansen which brings me to my next point.

3. Age - At 26 Elton Brown is pretty much at his peak physically. On top of that he is more likely to maintain a high level of play throughout the season, where as a lot of our older lineman broke down last year during the strech.

4. Cost - Probably one of the main draws towards Willis. I think the estimates right now are about 3 millions a year which will probably end up being $1.5 million against the cap next year.

5. Production - The Seahawks two main runners were able to average over 4.3 YPC. Granted that Julius Jones and Maurice Morris are average at best I'd say those numbers end up working in favor of Willis.

6. Knowledge - All he'll have to learn is our run blocking schemes. Still he'll be pretty familiar with the terminology and will already have a grasp on the protection schemes Zorn wants to run.

7. Versatility - Should Rhinehart end up not being a starting quality player Willis will be more then ready to fill in at RG should Thomas go down. Ironically he might be better then Thomas at this point.

8. More Freedom Come Draft Day - Not that I'm opposed to taking a guy like Andre Smith should he fall, and given Vinny's run on pass catchers last year no one should discount the Vinny overkill factor. However the fact of the matter is we won't have to reach.

[B]The Bad
[/B]
1. Limited Experience - Granted he has 10 games of starting experience we can't say we know to much about him.

2. Pass Blocking - Definately an upgrade over Jansen but he doesn't have the feet, at least not yet, to be left alone on an island vs speed rushers so on that note he's not an option at LT should we lose Samuals (knock on wood). Some will point to the Dallas game as evidence that Willis struggles in pass protection but out of the 7 sacks Willis seemed to hold his own and was not one of the reasons the Cowboys were able to do that annoying turkey dance so often. To his credit he also allowed only 1.5 sacks last year so it's not like he's a liability. Just don't expect him to play LT short of an emergency.[/quote]

That was an excellent post!

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

Hey... isn't that Elton Brown the dude from Iron Chef America on the Food Network? :)

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

Why can't we see who's on-line at the top of the page anymore?

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=Mattyk72;534278]I agree, and these guys they are bringing in are young and have some upside. Can't hate on that.[/quote]

Oh there are a few who could.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=GMScud;534409]I'm gonna have to side with GTripp on the Rabach argument. I think the guy is on the downslide. Tripp breaks down more film than anyone not named Ron Jaworski, and has provided numerous examples (backed by stats mind you) on Rabach's shortcomings. Go back and read some of his offensive game charts from the regular season. Just because Rabach is durable doesn't mean he's one of our best lineman. He gets beat up at the point of attack all the time, especially by NTs in 3-4 defenses.[/quote]
What you said about what Tripp said. Hail.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

Wow, I go to buy some tires and the smack hits the fan. We sign some punter from lord knows where, Arizona? What about Hunter Smith? Did someone snatch him up already? It shouldn't a surprise that there are O-line guys visiting. The FO may make mistakes (in hind-sight) but they're not blind.

There were a few people saying we should get Willis. I think that will happen, just IMO. He sounds like he has more upside than down. It's nice to see us getting younger before my eyes. Hopefully it will work out.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

Does this mean that the Redskins think that the best player available in the draft at thirteen will be a LB?

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

I know Oline is our biggest need but I think Rey will be the face of our defense for years to come

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=SOUL-SKINS;534570]I know Oline is our biggest need but I think Rey will be the face of our defense for years to come[/quote]
The only problem with Ray is he ran a 4.8 40yd dash. That is just to slow.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

The other problem with rey is that he is a natural middle LB and we have that covered with Fletcher.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

It doesn't matter how fast he is so long as he can take out the first and perhaps first two blockers on D to give Portis more room to run. lol.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

Sorry. I thought you guys were still talking about the RT spot. lol.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;534572]The only problem with Ray is he ran a 4.8 40yd dash. That is just to slow.[/quote]He also got hurt in the middle of that run.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;534572]The only problem with Ray is he ran a 4.8 40yd dash. That is just to slow.[/quote]

The 40 isn't a good measure IMO. Watch video of Rey M, he closes like a lightning bolt on QBs, RBs, and even TEs.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=SOUL-SKINS;534570]I know Oline is our biggest need but I think Rey will be the face of our defense for years to come[/quote] I think you could be right!!!

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=GTripp0012;534600]He also got hurt in the middle of that run.[/quote]

I see, so he has durability problems :D. You just can't win. Still I think a lot of the other people were right about Rey in that on gametape he plays at a speed and intensity that few players can match.

As for the argument that he can't play OLB. I honestly doubt that for one the guy is a football player who's been credited with having some of the better instincts in this years draft. On top of that he's shown the ability to cover in pass coverage, and most of all he's a hell of a pass rusher, and he build that reputation from the MLB spot. All these are attributes that make a succesful OLB.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

I believe the signing of both would be a plus heading into the draft. It will definately open up more drafting options instead of being held hostage to a pick in tems of what we must have.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;534328]About freaking time. I've been waiting for this for a while. Being an O-Line junkie I would love to see the team sign Ray Willis then draft Andre Smith in the first and a Center in the third. Then have a starting lineup like so:

LT - Chris Samuals
LG - Derrick Dockery
C - Casey Rabach
RG - Ray Willis
RT - Andre Smith

Backups - Stephon Heyer, Jon Jansen, 3rd Round Center, Chad Rhinehart, Randy Thomas

Of course thats kind of overkill but I wouldn't mind that one bit. Still if they do sign Willis that'll help free us up to truly take the BPA and my money's on Maualuga based on Vinny's infatuation with the guy.[/quote]

I like Brian Orakpo. This dude is a beast from Texas. He was explosive in the combine and he definitely will not last past the Redskins in the draft.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

I hope the Skins sign both players. both have decent size and Buges could make something of them.

and like everyone else has said it would open up the door for us to pick DE/LB and perhaps BAP in most of those spots. LOL. What all 4. LOL. Anyway, I wonder how good Tryon will be this year and how good Westbrook truly is. They resigned Westbrook but he remained on the practice squad every year he's been here. Tryon comes in last year and is put on the field. If Westbrook can't beat out a Rookie then let him go to create a roster spot for some other CB who will be utilized.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=SUNRA;534656]I like Brian Orakpo. This dude is a beast from Texas. He was explosive in the combine and he definitely will not last past the Redskins in the draft.[/quote]

I wonder if he'll even get that far down. I guess a lot will really depend on what the Browns end up doing

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=SmootSmack;534669]I wonder if he'll even get that far down. I guess a lot will really depend on what the Browns end up doing[/quote]

No way Orakpo is around, sad to say. He's touch much of a physical freak. He'll go top 10.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

I have a 2 part question:
If the Skins FO were to trade our #1 pick and 1-2 picks next year, to move up during the draft and for sure pickup an OT Stud, or Orakpu-
1) would you like that trade,
2) what pick(s) next year would people be willing to part with to move up to between #6 and #9 this year?

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

nope - stand firm and don't trade future picks

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;534672]I have a 2 part question:
If the Skins FO were to trade our #1 pick and 1-2 picks next year, to move up during the draft and for sure pickup an OT Stud, or Orakpu-
1) would you like that trade,
2) what pick(s) next year would people be willing to part with to move up to between #6 and #9 this year?[/quote]

1)No
2)None

We must practice abstinence with regards to trading draft pick's for as long as Vinny has a job.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

All of a sudden were in the draft thread. Has anyone heard anything in regards to these two guys coming in and if the Skins will sign them? They had appointments with the Skins on Thurs. right?

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

Our biggest competitor for Willis could be off the market with the Raiders reportedly close to signing Khalif Barnes

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=SBXVII;534732]All of a sudden were in the draft thread. Has anyone heard anything in regards to these two guys coming in and if the Skins will sign them? They had appointments with the Skins on Thurs. right?[/quote]

Yeah, I think were intersted in signing Willis, than Brown. I think Brown visited because he was from the area, and we need interior line help. I'm betting Willis will sign by the weekend especially if the Raiders are close to signing Kahlif Barnes.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

Is there a reason we are not even considering Khalif Barnes? I may be ignorant on him but if I remember he was pretty highly regarded coming out of school. Anyways I do like Ray Willis just wondering if Barnes has more potential to excel.

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=vallin21;534738]Yeah, I think were intersted in signing Willis, than Brown. I think Brown visited because he was from the area, and we need interior line help. I'm betting Willis will sign by the weekend especially if the Raiders are close to signing Kahlif Barnes.[/quote]

To help my pea brain. are you sayng you think we will sign Willis then Brown? It sounded like the person after you was trying to say we will probably sign Willis instead of Brown. Can we not get them both? then look elswhere in the draft and pick up a OL in later rounds? :)


[B]edited: Sorry did not mean to put words in his mouth. I guess it was the way you wrote your piece that got me wondering why not both?[/B]

Re: Redskins Reportedly Bringing OLs Elton Brown and Ray Willis in for Visit
 

[quote=SBXVII;534743]To help my pea brain. are you sayng you think we will sign Willis then Brown? It sounded like the person after you was trying to say we will probably sign Willis instead of Brown. Can we not get them both? then look elswhere in the draft and pick up a OL in later rounds? :)


[B]edited: Sorry did not mean to put words in his mouth. I guess it was the way you wrote your piece that got me wondering why not both?[/B][/quote]

I think we are definitely looking at both seriously. Ray Willis would come in to compete for a starting job while Im sure Brown is more for depth. From what I've read it seems its not an either/or but they are looking to add both. Hopefully thats what happens. Still wondering about Barnes though.