re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

the thing about williams is if he works out, then thats great for the fo and zorn. if it doesnt well then he's cut after camp.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Superman13732;551717][URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/26/AR2009042602764.html"]washingtonpost.com[/URL][/quote]
That backs up the 410, want him at 370 report

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Superman13732;551721]Man, I think this guy is going to have lift weights, go on atkins and join a cross country club to drop some of that weight, damn, and i was hoping he actually got in shape over the last few years to get his back in better shape. Maybe its healed (please god?)[/quote]

weights, recumbant bike, sprints, pool work ... recovery

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Paintrain;551871]Kelly said last week that he is rehabbing from the most recent (January) procedure on the knee and all along the target date was the June mini camp. He can run a straight line but they don't want him cutting right now. Their entire focus is on getting the muscles around the knee stronger because when he hurt it in college he rehabbed but didn't continue to strengthen (maintenance basically) which led to it giving him problems again. He is working the plan to get ready for the season, not a May minicamp. As for 'talent' he was universally considered ready to make an impact based on early showings in camp before his injury popped up.

To assume that Williams was brought in as the presumptive starter would be a false premise. He's in on a one year vet min deal. That screams depth/camp body. The depth chart at RT is Heyer, Jansen, Williams-in that order. If Williams really makes huge strides in the next 12 weeks and can enter camp in great shape he might be a factor but there's about a 25% chance of that actually happening.

As for the rest of the line, if any team loses their pro-bowl LT they are pretty much screwed. Nobody has had a negative view on the Dockery signing and there's hope/an expectation internally that Rinehart will be able to step up to fill in if Thomas goes down. Rabach is what he is (average) but he's in the last year of his deal so his replacement is on the way (if not on the roster).

[B]The gloom and doom around here in April(!) is pretty amazing.[/B][/quote]

It seems to me to be an evolution of the fan base & a growing resentment towards the way the team operates. I know there are some mods on this site that have a better idea, or could crunch some comparisons of past April/post draft threads, but it seems to me that most post draft threads in the past were positive until maybe last year.

I remember so much hope on this site for guys like Molinaro, McCune & Broughton. I don't see that as much now for Glenn, Henson, Mitchell et al.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;551764]Cardio's always quicker short term. He should do both each day though, but to lose weight before the season starts, it needs to be through cardio. Hopefully in the meantime he'll build enough muscle to help him keep it off long term.[/quote]
It doesn't have to be a competition between lifting and cardio. Anaerobic exercise raises the metabolism higher and extends the length of the boost to the basal metabolic rate. So you do both, you don't want to lose strength by going only cardio. So much more to it but that's the cliff's notes version.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain;551871]Kelly said last week that he is rehabbing from the most recent (January) procedure on the knee and all along the target date was the June mini camp. He can run a straight line but they don't want him cutting right now. Their entire focus is on getting the muscles around the knee stronger because when he hurt it in college he rehabbed but didn't continue to strengthen (maintenance basically) which led to it giving him problems again. He is working the plan to get ready for the season, not a May minicamp. As for 'talent' he was universally considered ready to make an impact based on early showings in camp before his injury popped up.

Kelly has a degenerative knee condition. According to one doctor who looked at him last year he has the knees of an 80 year old man. The injury he suffered in college was a result of that condition. Sad thing is this was popular knowledge before we drafted him.

As for the O-line, you made a valid point about Williams being third string at best, i was reaching for optimism (admittingly a little too far). The left side of our line is solid if Dockery can revert to his pre-Bills Redskins days. But that still leaves us with the right side of the line... Jansen? does anyone here honestly have faith in him? Same goes for Thomas. They are old and frail, how much does that say for Their backups? They can't beat out these frail old men for the starting jobs?

How do we redeem this line? One name. Levi Jones. Not an outstanding player, but far better than whatever we have though. I do see a major problem in this though. No. 1 he has not been released yet, and if the Bengals O-line was as bad as everyone says it was last year, how are they going to release him, and No. 2, if they do in fact release him, what does that say about HIM, he can't keep a job on a lousy team? (and dont give me the "well they drafted Smith with the 6th pick, they don't need Jones anymore" if he is so good, and the bengals line is so bad, they can MOVE HIM AROUND). With that said, where does that leave us? Say goodbye to some more draft picks from next years draft. We had a chance to get some value with the fifth round, Robinson and.... M-something, they were both great value in the fifth round. I'm just not seeing the wisdom here. Standard Dan and Vinny logic.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Superman13732;552150][QUOTE=Paintrain;551871]Kelly said last week that he is rehabbing from the most recent (January) procedure on the knee and all along the target date was the June mini camp. He can run a straight line but they don't want him cutting right now. Their entire focus is on getting the muscles around the knee stronger because when he hurt it in college he rehabbed but didn't continue to strengthen (maintenance basically) which led to it giving him problems again. He is working the plan to get ready for the season, not a May minicamp. As for 'talent' he was universally considered ready to make an impact based on early showings in camp before his injury popped up.

Kelly has a degenerative knee condition. According to one doctor who looked at him last year he has the knees of an 80 year old man. The injury he suffered in college was a result of that condition. Sad thing is this was popular knowledge before we drafted him.

As for the O-line, you made a valid point about Williams being third string at best, i was reaching for optimism (admittingly a little too far). The left side of our line is solid if Dockery can revert to his pre-Bills Redskins days. But that still leaves us with the right side of the line... Jansen? does anyone here honestly have faith in him? Same goes for Thomas. They are old and frail, how much does that say for Their backups? They can't beat out these frail old men for the starting jobs?

How do we redeem this line? One name. Levi Jones. Not an outstanding player, but far better than whatever we have though. I do see a major problem in this though. No. 1 he has not been released yet, and if the Bengals O-line was as bad as everyone says it was last year, how are they going to release him, and No. 2, if they do in fact release him, what does that say about HIM, he can't keep a job on a lousy team? (and dont give me the "well they drafted Smith with the 6th pick, they don't need Jones anymore" if he is so good, and the bengals line is so bad, they can MOVE HIM AROUND). With that said, where does that leave us? Say goodbye to some more draft picks from next years draft. [B][B][B]We had a chance to get some value with the fifth round, Robinson and.... M-something, they were both great value in the fifth round. I'm just not seeing the wisdom here.[/B][/B][/B] Standard Dan and Vinny logic.[/quote]

I and others have given wisdom on this in numerous threads. If these guys are not as good as the guys we already have then what is the purpose of getting them? Don't forget, we dont have a shortage of Olinemen just a shortage of quality (can be debated). If our coaches (Buges included) did not see anyone that he would want over Clark, Rinehart, Heyer, or even Williams then there is no point in drafting them. I'm more excited about the undrafted C from MD Williams. My friends who work for CSN covering the Terps swear that this guy will not disappoint. I just don't know what more you're looking for.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

We need a new CB because Williams mistook Carlos Rogers for his sandwich and swallowed Rogers whole today.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Lotus;552156]We need a new CB because Williams mistook Carlos Rogers for his sandwich and swallowed Rogers whole today.[/quote]

:laughing2 Will you be in the house all week?

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=cobracai1;552151][quote=Superman13732;552150]

I and others have given wisdom on this in numerous threads. [B]If these guys are not as good as the guys we already have then what is the purpose of getting them?[/B] Don't forget, we dont have a shortage of Olinemen just a shortage of quality (can be debated). If our coaches (Buges included) did not see anyone that he would want over Clark, Rinehart, Heyer, or even Williams then there is no point in drafting them. I'm more excited about the undrafted C from MD Williams. My friends who work for CSN covering the Terps swear that this guy will not disappoint. I just don't know what more you're looking for.[/quote]

You honestly think that Dan and Vinny are in their right mind? A few examples of why they are NOT, Adam Archuletta, we made him the highest paid Safety in the league. He started/played in how many games for us? T.J. Ducket, Jason Taylor, the list goes on and on. And, did anyone see what Zorn said about the draft? Apparently the reason we drafted 4 defensive players first in this draft is because we drafted 4 offensive player first last year. Great logic? Please, sir, our FO ranks towards the bottom when it comes to brains.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Superman13732;552166]
You honestly think that Dan and Vinny are in their right mind?
[/quote] yes I do, even though I may not agree with every pick. Imagine that.

[quote]A few examples of why they are NOT, Adam Archuletta, we made him the highest paid Safety in the league. He started/played in how many games for us? T.J. Ducket, Jason Taylor, the list goes on and on.
[/quote]
It's been said many times, many ways - your examples are old, (except JT, and nearly everyone on the board at the time at least understood the move, it was not the same as AA, but we did pay too much). The FO has filled 3 of 4 areas of need very effectively (GTripp I am not counting Hall). LB -good prospects (especially if Wilson can switch to SLB at all), DL - bowing to GTripp again, assuming the scheme and players are used well, the FO has acquired what would appear to be top notch talent that should be here for 3-6 years. Yes the OL is a need, the offseason is not over, but Dockery was a passible start. STs - I love Hunter, and the late rounders all "look" to be aggressive, and maybe one will be a standout.

[quote]And, did anyone see what Zorn said about the draft? Apparently the reason we drafted 4 defensive players first in this draft is because we drafted 4 offensive player first last year. Great logic? [/quote]
Um context is good, we drafted Offense last year, so rather than throwing out last year's 3rd round prospect for the 5th rounder you apparently have so much faith in, they are going to keep developing our guys (isn't this called building through the draft? or are all late rounders supposed to be starters in the 2nd year? I must have missed that lesson)
[quote]Please, sir, our FO ranks towards the bottom when it comes to brains.[/quote]
we have found Superman13732's green kryptonite, it is JC, it causes him to go weak in his arguments
and his red kryptonite is the FO, who knows how that will affect him each time.
There is a cure for this kryptonite though. Knowledge, and lack of impatience, and perhaps Superman CAN Return!!!

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;552171]yes I do, even though I may not agree with every pick. Imagine that.


It's been said many times, many ways - [B]your examples are old,[/B] (except JT, and nearly everyone on the board at the time at least understood the move, it was not the same as AA, but we did pay too much). The FO has filled 3 of 4 areas of need very effectively (GTripp I am not counting Hall). LB -good prospects (especially if Wilson can switch to SLB at all), DL - bowing to GTripp again, assuming the scheme and players are used well, the FO has acquired what would appear to be top notch talent that should be here for 3-6 years. Yes the OL is a need, the offseason is not over, but Dockery was a passible start. STs - I love Hunter, and the late rounders all "look" to be aggressive, and maybe one will be a standout.

they may be old, but they are valid. JT was 34 years old, we gave up to much, and payed too much for him. And what do you attribute our second half demise to last year? our defense? Thats where our "holes" have been filled. Last time i checked they were ranked 4th in the league. Ok, well, then how do you miss the playoffs with the 4th overall defense?

[B]Um context is good, we drafted Offense last year, so rather than throwing out last year's 3rd round prospect[/B] for the 5th rounder you apparently have so much faith in, they are going to keep developing our guys (isn't this called building through the draft? or are all late rounders supposed to be starters in the 2nd year? I must have missed that lesson)

Ok, here's the thing. Where were they last year? Kelly was on IR with his DEGENERATIVE knee condition. what does degenerative mean? It means he has the knees of an 80 year old man, according to doctors anyways, google it. Thomas has the most potential out of that draft, and as for Davis, well, I hope he does turn out good, then we can draft him for a 2nd rounder we can use. Yes, i guess i am in the minority here when I say I am like Cooley as a receiving TE and Yoder as a blocking TE? But, let's not worry about these issues yet, they aren't our pressing needs (that was defense right?).

I will EVEN go as far as ignoring Jason Campbell's obvious flaws as QB (Even the respected FO doubts him). I believe, as does every expert in the modern world, that our second half collapse can be attributed to our OL. Yes, I know, i am showing my weakness here by saying I wish we have addressed our real weakness, but I just can't help myself. Dockery was nice. But last time I checked, the right side of our line is still how old? (Jansen and Thomas are both 33)And last time I checked, they weren't the most durable players. But hey, I don't know anything. What was I missing? Oh right! The defense and our special teams was our main issue, since that is what we addressed in this draft.


we have found Superman13732's green kryptonite, it is JC, it causes him to go weak in his arguments
and his red kryptonite is the FO, who knows how that will affect him each time.
There is a cure for this kryptonite though. Knowledge, and lack of impatience, and perhaps Superman CAN Return!!![/quote]

And the only thing I am growing impatient with, is waiting for players to develop (i.e. Campbell, going on 5 years, our entire draft last year played how many snaps?) At the rate we are developing players, we are going to develop our All-stars (Portis, Samuels, Moss) into retirement. You can keep the patience, I personally believe someone needs to light a fire under the FO's ass.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

I'm still learning how to use this chat box, i said a lot of things in the quoted section lol. Oh well.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

Only the losers of the NFL preach patience.

Ask Robert Kraft, Bill Belichick, or Mike Tomlin how patient they expect their fans to be. How about Bill Polian? Does anyone think his success in Buffalo, Carolina, or Indianapolis was based on sitting through years and years of 8-8 seasons asking everyone to be "patient" ??

No. This league is about winning, and winning right F'ing now. We've had 10 years under this regime. They're good at building mediocrity. They're good at developing teams to win 6 to 9 games a year -- maybe 10 games if everything falls right into place.

The league is designed to make winners out of anybody, and for anybody to do it in relatively short fashion.

If you can't get it done in ten years with the same people running the show, it's not going to get done.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Beemnseven;552193]Only the losers of the NFL preach patience.

Ask Robert Kraft, Bill Belichick, or Mike Tomlin how patient they expect their fans to be. How about Bill Polian? Does anyone think his success in Buffalo, Carolina, or Indianapolis was based on sitting through years and years of 8-8 seasons asking everyone to be "patient" ??

No. This league is about winning, and winning right F'ing now. We've had 10 years under this regime. They're good at building mediocrity. They're good at developing teams to win 6 to 9 games a year -- maybe 10 games if everything falls right into place.

The league is designed to make winners out of anybody, and for anybody to do it in relatively short fashion.

If you can't get it done in ten years with the same people running the show, it's not going to get done.[/quote]

But we haven't necessarily had the same people running the show

2000-Snyder
2001-Marty
2002-2003-Spurrier
2004-2007-Gibbs
2008-Present-Cerrato

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Beemnseven;552193]Only the losers of the NFL preach patience.

Ask Robert Kraft, Bill Belichick, or Mike Tomlin how patient they expect their fans to be. How about Bill Polian? Does anyone think his success in Buffalo, Carolina, or Indianapolis was based on sitting through years and years of 8-8 seasons asking everyone to be "patient" ??

No. This league is about winning, and winning right F'ing now. We've had 10 years under this regime. They're good at building mediocrity. They're good at developing teams to win 6 to 9 games a year -- maybe 10 games if everything falls right into place.

The league is designed to make winners out of anybody, and for anybody to do it in relatively short fashion.

If you can't get it done in ten years with the same people running the show, it's not going to get done.[/quote]

As SS pointed out, the only one we've had for 10 years is Danny Boy, and we likely are stuck with him for another 25 years.

If you look at the successes of Polian and Belichick, one ingredient they have is stability. They don't panic and impatiently change things.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=SmootSmack;552207]But we haven't necessarily had the same people running the show

2000-Snyder
2001-Marty
2002-2003-Spurrier
2004-2007-Gibbs
2008-Present-Cerrato[/quote]

No, its been Dan and Vinny the whole time. Let's not kid ourselves. Marty wanted to do his own thing, but they got tired of that after... one year, then was Spurrier, who was Dan's lap dog, just like Vinny. Gibbs... eh, thats arguable, he ran the show some of the time, but pick ups like Lloyd, Archuletta, and Duckett, they smelled like Dan ad Vinny had thier fingers in it.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Superman13732;552186]And the only thing I am growing impatient with, is waiting for players to develop (i.e. [B]Campbell, going on 5 years[/B], our entire draft last year played how many snaps?) At the rate we are developing players, we are going to develop our All-stars (Portis, Samuels, Moss) into retirement. You can keep the patience, I personally believe someone needs to light a fire under the FO's ass.[/quote]

We've talked about this before. 5 years ago JC was a junior at Auburn. Please re-adjust your time line.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Lotus;552211]As SS pointed out, the only one we've had for 10 years is Danny Boy, and we likely are stuck with him for another 25 years.

If you look at the successes of Polian and Belichick, one ingredient they have is stability. They don't panic and impatiently change things.[/quote]

Haha, but you are forgetting the main factor. Polian and Belichek know how to evaluate talent. That is one thing our FO has never been able to do. I mean there were a couple blatantly obvious ones with our safties (Taylor RIP, and Landry). But other than that? mediocrity. So I'll gain patience when the FO learns to evaluate talent. Deal?

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Lotus;552213]We've talked about this before. 5 years ago JC was a junior at Auburn. Please re-adjust your time line.[/quote]

My time line?!?!? check your stats, i dont know how the hell this is discussable, he has been on our team for 4 years. Going on 5.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Lotus;552213]We've talked about this before. 5 years ago JC was a junior at Auburn. Please re-adjust your time line.[/quote]

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=8440]Jason Campbell Stats, News, Photos - Washington Redskins - ESPN[/url]

Look at the experience tab...

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

This guy is 410 pounds and out of the league for 3 years. I figured he sustained an injury and was now ready to play. I thought why in hell would the Redskins take this on. Then I read that he lives with Dockery and his wife and thought to myself that maybe, this was part of Dockery signing here. What do you guys think. Just makes no sense.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

Your "experience tab" means that he is going into his 5th year.

Let's do math: It is now April 2009. 5 years ago was April 2004.

JC was drafted in April 2005.

Therefore, in April 2004 or 5 years ago, JC was junior at Auburn.

But I'll tell you what: In order to have 5 NFL years under his belt, JC would have had to play the 2004 season. Find me his NFL stats from 2004 and I'll change my mind. If you cannot find those stats then please change your time line.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=SmootSmack;552207]But we haven't necessarily had the same people running the show

2000-Snyder
2001-Marty
2002-2003-Spurrier
2004-2007-Gibbs
2008-Present-Cerrato[/quote]

Fine. I'll subtract the 8-8 season under Marty.

Steve Spurrier was hardly running the show during 2002-03. Under Gibbs, Cerrato was still player personnel director, and Lil' Danny held the purse strings.

Either way you slice it, Lil' Danny has been here for the last ten years doing the hiring. In any business, the one who's doing the hiring is the one who gets the blame. And he's got a 68-76 record to show for it.

You know and I know those numbers show he's not getting it done.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

At first when we picked eddie Williams of Idaho I thought the card person messed up and meant this guy...
Also I think he's a better pick than most of our second day picks

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Beemnseven;552227]Fine. I'll subtract the 8-8 season under Marty.

Steve Spurrier was hardly running the show during 2002-03. Under Gibbs, Cerrato was still player personnel director, and Lil' Danny held the purse strings.

Either way you slice it, Lil' Danny has been here for the last ten years doing the hiring. In any business, the one who's doing the hiring is the one who gets the blame. And he's got a 68-76 record to show for it.

You know and I know those numbers show he's not getting it done.[/quote]

Fine. Danny has been in charge for 10 years, that is true. So, if you don't want to be patient, what are you going to change? Trade Danny? As much as I'd like to, that's not realistic.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Superman13732;552219]My time line?!?!? check your stats, i dont know how the hell this is discussable, he has been on our team for [B]4 years[/B]. Going on 5.[/quote]

I see you already got it. The number you are looking for is four years, not 5 as you previously stated.

Further, JC rode the bench as a rookie. You're really going to criticize him for not producing then?

The fact is that JC has only about 1 3/4 years experience as a starter. When it comes to being patient with JC, that is the number which needs to be discussed. Not 5 years for sure, not even 4 years, but 1 3/4 years.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Superman13732;552212]No, its been Dan and Vinny the whole time. Let's not kid ourselves. Marty wanted to do his own thing, but they got tired of that after... one year, then was Spurrier, who was Dan's lap dog, just like Vinny. Gibbs... eh, thats arguable, he ran the show some of the time, but pick ups like Lloyd, Archuletta, and Duckett, they smelled like Dan ad Vinny had thier fingers in it.[/quote]

I love how we only talk about the mess ups of the FO. How about the Santana Moss trade? How about Griffen, Springs, and Daniels signings. I will not bore everone on the board with this discussion any longer but I think that to say things like our FO is stupid or retarded just doesn't really hold water with me. They have areas where they can improve. You cant just compare us to Indy, Pitt, and New England every time. These are elite franchises with years of stability in coaching and systems. If we stay the course we could eventually get there. I actually am happy with our offseason. We have gotten younger at a lot of positions and have upgraded both our offensive and defensive lines (and we aren't done yet). And our O-line shoudl be better just with the improvement of the guys already there. Lets have some faith.

HTTR

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Lotus;552226]Your "experience tab" means that he is going into his 5th year.

Let's do math: It is now April 2009. 5 years ago was April 2004.

JC was drafted in April 2005.

Therefore, in April 2004 or 5 years ago, JC was junior at Auburn.

But I'll tell you what: In order to have 5 NFL years under his belt, JC would have had to play the 2004 season. Find me his NFL stats from 2004 and I'll change my mind. If you cannot find those stats then please change your time line.[/quote]

haha, man, look at what i said. he is GOING into his fifth year. GOING into implies he is not there yet. He was drafted in 2005, so his term is as follows:
2005 (1), 2006 (2), 2007(3), 2008(4) aaand GOING into 2009(5).

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Lotus;552230]Fine. Danny has been in charge for 10 years, that is true. So, if you don't want to be patient, what are you going to change? Trade Danny? As much as I'd like to, that's not realistic.[/quote]

I actually have sympathy for this point of view: There's no point in bitching about ownership because it's not going to change. That's the one argument from the Front Office Defenders that I can respect. I get that.

It is beyond me though, that there is still a contingent of fans that act as loyal pawns of this regime. So quick to roll their eyes at anyone who makes a legitimate argument against the front office. "[I]I guess it's more fun to bash the F.O.[/I]" they'll say...

Win some games, and that will change.

Winners don't tolerate a 7-9 season average over ten years. Losers do.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=cobracai1;552234]I love how we only talk about the mess ups of the FO. [B]How about the Santana Moss trade? How about Griffen, Springs, and Daniels signings.[/B] I will not bore everone on the board with this discussion any longer but I think that to say things like our FO is stupid or retarded just doesn't really hold water with me. They have areas where they can improve. You cant just compare us to Indy, Pitt, and New England every time. These are elite franchises with years of stability in coaching and systems. If we stay the course we could eventually get there. I actually am happy with our offseason. We have gotten younger at a lot of positions and have upgraded both our offensive and defensive lines (and we aren't done yet). And our O-line shoudl be better just with the improvement of the guys already there. [B]Lets have some faith.[/B]

HTTR[/quote]

Dude, how about 68-76 over ten years? How about 22-26 over the last three seasons?

Faith is believing in something you know ain't true.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=cobracai1;552234]I love how we only talk about the mess ups of the FO. How about the Santana Moss trade? How about Griffen, Springs, and Daniels signings. I will not bore everone on the board with this discussion any longer but I think that to say things like our FO is stupid or retarded just doesn't really hold water with me. They have areas where they can improve. You cant just compare us to Indy, Pitt, and New England every time. These are elite franchises with years of stability in coaching and systems. If we stay the course we could eventually get there. I actually am happy with our offseason. We have gotten younger at a lot of positions and have upgraded both our offensive and defensive lines (and we aren't done yet). And our O-line shoudl be better just with the improvement of the guys already there. Lets have some faith.

HTTR[/quote]

OK, first off, we traded Laverneous Coles for Moss, who (talking about Coles) at that time was a more productive receiver. so, it can be argued, that the Jets actually came out on the better side of that deal. That's number one.

And as for the other names you mentioned... Even a blindfolded person, given enough darts will hit the bulls-eye at some point. Those were more of on the dart board hits though, Springs was a beast WHEN he wasn't injured, same goes for Daniels, but Griffen is solid. And the only improvement we made so far is the Dockery signing. WHICH IS GOOD, don't get me wrong, but that line needs a makeover.

And just read what the experts (yes, the experts, who, like it or not know more about football than any of us do) have to say about our draft compared to Indy's and New England's, we don't have the FO talent to draft like they do.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

This dude is WAY outta shape...he currently weighs about 410 pounds, according to Zorn. When he last played in the NFL, he was 360 pounds.

This is really bad news...there is no way this guy can drop 50 lbs in 2 months.
It is a shame...to bad he didn't get his lazy butt into shape over the winter.
I really doubt he makes the team

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Superman13732;552186]
[quote=CRedskinsRule]It's been said many times, many ways - your examples are old, (except JT, and nearly everyone on the board at the time at least understood the move, it was not the same as AA, but we did pay too much). The FO has filled 3 of 4 areas of need very effectively (GTripp I am not counting Hall). LB -good prospects (especially if Wilson can switch to SLB at all), DL - bowing to GTripp again, assuming the scheme and players are used well, the FO has acquired what would appear to be top notch talent that should be here for 3-6 years. Yes the OL is a need, the offseason is not over, but Dockery was a passible start. STs - I love Hunter, and the late rounders all "look" to be aggressive, and maybe one will be a standout.
[/quote]
they may be old, but they are valid. JT was 34 years old, we gave up to much, and payed too much for him. And what do you attribute our second half demise to last year? our defense? Thats where our "holes" have been filled. Last time i checked they were ranked 4th in the league. Ok, well, then how do you miss the playoffs with the 4th overall defense?
[quote=CRedskinsRule]
Um context is good, we drafted Offense last year, so rather than throwing out last year's 3rd round prospect for the 5th rounder you apparently have so much faith in, they are going to keep developing our guys (isn't this called building through the draft? or are all late rounders supposed to be starters in the 2nd year? I must have missed that lesson)
[/quote]
Ok, here's the thing. Where were they last year? Kelly was on IR with his DEGENERATIVE knee condition. what does degenerative mean? It means he has the knees of an 80 year old man, according to doctors anyways, google it. Thomas has the most potential out of that draft, and as for Davis, well, I hope he does turn out good, then we can draft him for a 2nd rounder we can use. Yes, i guess i am in the minority here when I say I am like Cooley as a receiving TE and Yoder as a blocking TE? But, let's not worry about these issues yet, they aren't our pressing needs (that was defense right?).

I will EVEN go as far as ignoring Jason Campbell's obvious flaws as QB (Even the respected FO doubts him). I believe, as does every expert in the modern world, that our second half collapse can be attributed to our OL. Yes, I know, i am showing my weakness here by saying I wish we have addressed our real weakness, but I just can't help myself. Dockery was nice. But last time I checked, the right side of our line is still how old? (Jansen and Thomas are both 33)And last time I checked, they weren't the most durable players. But hey, I don't know anything. What was I missing? Oh right! The defense and our special teams was our main issue, since that is what we addressed in this draft.

And the only thing I am growing impatient with, is waiting for players to develop (i.e. Campbell, going on 5 years, our entire draft last year played how many snaps?) At the rate we are developing players, we are going to develop our All-stars (Portis, Samuels, Moss) into retirement. You can keep the patience, I personally believe someone needs to light a fire under the FO's ***.[/QUOTE]

First - you defend the fact that you are using old examples by beating a dead horse on JT, when I had said that that one everybody agreed with, and was clearly, in hindsight, an overreaction to losing our 2 DEs on the first day of training camp.

Second - saying we had the 4th ranked D, does make a good sound bite, But we lost SSprings, who was our true shutdown corner -when he played, MW/LF are already going into retirement status (sorry 53Fan), and we ranked I think 30th in sacks and that was clearly an irritant to the fan base and the FO.

Third - can you please provide some links for your understanding of Kelly's knee condition. He was not on IR, although there was talk about putting him on, they did not. I have not seen any talk, except you, that his condition is degenerative in nature.

Fourth - you cite elite teams and gripe about our FO, but look at how those franchises reached their talent level. I will try and speak slowly.
build a scouting department
let scouting department evaluate talent over the year
look at results
trust competent staff
draft accordingly.
(a proof of this method is: it was announced today that [URL="http://nflnr.com/2009/04/27/chiefs-scouting-staff-sent-packing/"]Scott Pioli fired a majority of the KC scouting department[/URL])
Look for above market talent at below market price
Develop backups at major positions.

Can all of that be done in one draft? no, two-probably not. If last year we took players that we are now counting on contributing, that is not a negative against the FO at this point. If Rinehart and Heyer completely fail, and the 2nd rounders have the same type year, then I will be unhappy, but the fact the FO is depending on players from last year to continue their development, that is not a negative.

Fifth - Patience in football terms is how you develop strong long term programs, we have not been a patient team, and that is what accounts for our up and down seasons. I give every Kudo to the Skins if they learn the lessons of patience from Pitt, NE, and Indy. (again, these teams develop a talent base let it grow and now have reaped the benefits for many sustained years.)

I know -Superman- that you and others may weep and gnash teeth about our FO, and I do not agree with every move, but I don't get paid daily to go evaluate talent, to plan and look at the best ways to improve our team. Most, not all, critics here complain because our FO did not do some "obvious" moves, I tend to have faith that they have researched those moves and maybe, just maybe, they know better than a guy working 50 hours at his primary job and catching the latest internet buzz words.

Only time will tell, but in April/May, I can accept that we have solidly filled 3/4s of our needs going into the offseason, and that we will make strides on that last 25% in the months upcoming.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[QUOTE=Superman13732]Kelly was on IR with his DEGENERATIVE knee condition. what does degenerative mean? It means he has the knees of an 80 year old man, according to doctors anyways, google it.[/QUOTE]
Kelly was not on IR
I can't find any evidence that supports your claim Kelly has a degenerative knee condition
I did google it, and could not find a useful article, there was one where Rocky's condition was questioned, but seems like he was on the field playing last season with his "degenerative knee condition".
Any chance you will acknowledge that you may be wrong about this?

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

just read a story that states that Williams is well over 400lbs. so much for him helping this season

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=Superman13732;552217]Haha, but you are forgetting the main factor. Polian and Belichek know how to evaluate talent. That is one thing our FO has never been able to do. I mean there were a couple blatantly obvious ones with our safties (Taylor RIP, and Landry). But other than that? mediocrity. So I'll gain patience when the FO learns to evaluate talent. Deal?[/quote]

Never mind that the Taylor draft was pretty evenly split among fans and experts between Taylor or KWII or that many wanted Okoye instead of Landry. Never mind Cooley, Golston, Montgomery, Horton, Blades. I guess we should just assume that Kelly, Thomas, Davis, Orakpo, Barnes, will all be busts then?

I think the Redskins (like most other teams) have made some very poor personnel decisions, but let's not act like the good decisions they make are always obvious decisions they back into. It's funny how it's always just good luck when something goes their way, but never bad luck when something doesn't.

re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

[quote=dmek25;552285]just read a story that states that Williams is well over 400lbs. so much for him helping this season[/quote]

I take it you stopped reading posts in this thread three days ago

I'm surprised about the 410 pounds though. I thought I had heard he was 375 last week. Guess I misheard.

Re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

375 is where they want to get him down to.

As per Vinny's presser the other day yes he's over 400 folks for the 100th time. He's going to be working on conditioning for the next month to get him down.

[QUOTE]
"When we signed Mike Williams [on Friday] and the way he looked at the workout," he said, "that kinda helped that. Where we were picking there really weren't -- it really wasn't a deep draft for offensive linemen. For guards it was not a very good draft. There were good centers, but they all went late first round and we didn't have a second round pick. When we got to the third round with [Kevin Barnes], that was the highest rated guy we had on the board. That's why we went that direction. There really wasn't an offensive lineman at that spot."

On how much Mike Williams is expected to participate in minicamp:

"We used to have Bubba Paris and other guys like that in San Francisco. What we are going to do with Mike is, for this first month he will just work with the strength coaches and the rehab guys, work on conditioning and work on some drill work with [Joe Bugel] to get ready for June OTAs."

On how the Redskins decided to work out Williams:

"He's been living over at Derrick Dockery's house. [Derrick] told me about him and said 'Will you contact him?' We said we wanted to bring him over and work out before the Draft and see what he looked like so it may help us decide when we're in the Draft what we're gonna do.

"He came over on Friday, worked out, took a physical and signed a minimum contract deal. When you get past the point in the Draft where you don't feel like there is a starting guy there, then we just went to other positions."

On why Mike Williams was not successful in Buffalo:

"I don't know. I'm not sure why it didn't work. We're giving him the opportunity and putting him in the mix with our guys, put him in the mix at right tackle."

On why the Redskins did not take an offensive lineman in the Draft:

"Stephon [Heyer] is doing a great job. Now it's time for [Chad] Rinehart, Devin Clark and some of the guys from last year that we've been training for a year to step up."


[URL="http://blog.redskins.com/2009/04/26/after-day-2-vinny-cerrato-still-seems-happy/#continued"]After Day 2, Vinny Cerrato Still Seems Happy[/URL]
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Re: Skins Sign O-Lineman Mike Williams
 

I just hope that Williams runs with a shirt on!