Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=GTripp0012;561104]Perhaps Dr. Tiller received a personal sense of justification from providing a service to victims of rape. I don't believe there's a such thing as an unjustified abortion. Clearly, it's never an easy decision for the mother, regardless of the surrounding circumstances. And if he felt the right thing to do was provide the choice to people who otherwise would not have had an option, then I think you could argue that he was a good doctor doing good work and/or caring for his patients. That's one way to look at it.

But if dudes going to wear a bullet proof vest around town because he's in that much danger, based on political ideology, what do you want me to say when some nutjob kills him after multiple attempts on his life already? Clearly, his self-preservation instincts were either broken, or being suffocated by a perceived selflessness to a minority group.

If his former nurse is right, and he could have had a job anywhere, then the rational move would have been to take a job elsewhere when he first had an attempt on his life. Once you forfeit your right to safety, death becomes more inevitable than tragic.

Clearly, the only justification for not leaving the Wichita area was a perceived sense of moral justification in his actions. It's sort of ironic, isn't it? People wanted this man to lose his license because of a questionable moral compass, but the only rational justification for his actions is a higher sense of what is right. They can't both be right, now can they?

The only certainty appears to be that the party that committed the homicide is guilty of moral wrongdoing.[/quote]

There are only 3 late term abortion clinics in the entire nation, without him there are only 2.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;561135]Thats what the law said but that was not the case with this doctor and why he had people coming from all over the US. It seems he used that as more of a cover to get away with what he was doing.
[URL="http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Tiller.html"]George Tiller: a Case Study[/URL][/quote]

The folks who wrote the case study don't really matter. He was prosecuted with 19 counts of violating the law and was found not guilty on all 19 counts.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=GTripp0012;561104]Perhaps Dr. Tiller received a personal sense of justification from providing a service to victims of rape. I don't believe there's a such thing as an unjustified abortion. Clearly, it's never an easy decision for the mother, regardless of the surrounding circumstances. And if he felt the right thing to do was provide the choice to people who otherwise would not have had an option, then I think you could argue that he was a good doctor doing good work and/or caring for his patients. That's one way to look at it.

But if dudes going to wear a bullet proof vest around town because he's in that much danger, based on political ideology, what do you want me to say when some nutjob kills him after multiple attempts on his life already? Clearly, his self-preservation instincts were either broken, or being suffocated by a perceived selflessness to a minority group.

If his former nurse is right, and he could have had a job anywhere, then the rational move would have been to take a job elsewhere when he first had an attempt on his life. Once you forfeit your right to safety, death becomes more inevitable than tragic.

Clearly, the only justification for not leaving the Wichita area was a perceived sense of moral justification in his actions. It's sort of ironic, isn't it? People wanted this man to lose his license because of a questionable moral compass, but the only rational justification for his actions is a higher sense of what is right. They can't both be right, now can they?

The only certainty appears to be that the party that committed the homicide is guilty of moral wrongdoing.[/quote]
The rape thing is a very poor choice as I'm sure most victims find out very quickly if they are not prenant and don't need to wait until their third trimester to have an abortion.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

What does this have to do with the Republican Party?

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;561159]What does this have to do with the
Republican Party?[/quote]

Nothing. I am not a big fan of the title, it was clearly created to provoke...

EDIT: I just read the first post, it was about Cheney which makes more sense.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

I'm a die-hard Repub, but I'll be the first to say that Bush-Cheney was epic fail and gave our party a bad name. Repub is the way to go because Dems are too myopic and naive, but like with every race/nationality, there are good and bad people in both parties.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=HughHog;561184]I'm a die-hard Repub, but I'll be the first to say that Bush-Cheney was epic fail and gave our party a bad name. Repub is the way to go because Dems are too [B]myopic and naive[/B], but like with every race/nationality, there are good and bad people in both parties.[/quote]

Oh my, big words for a diehard republican.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561207]Oh my, big words for a diehard republican.[/quote]
Yea us Republicans stick to easy words like learning what the meaning of "is" is.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=HughHog;561184]I'm a die-hard Repub, but I'll be the first to say that [B]Bush-Cheney was epic fail and gave our party a bad name.[/B] Repub is the way to go because Dems are too myopic and naive, but like with every race/nationality, there are good and bad people in both parties.[/quote]

Finally! I can agree with a republican about something! I can't believe it!

But, how can your party be the way to go when it has a Disc Jockey leading it?

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;561214]Yea us Republicans stick to easy words like learning what the meaning of "is" is.[/quote]

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

To be fair with Clinton, he just asked what Congress' meaning of 'is' was. Not what the meaning was. :)

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Miller101;561215]Finally! I can agree with a republican about something! I can't believe it!

But, how can your party be the way to go when it has a Disc Jockey leading it?[/quote]
First off it was the White house that started taking on Rush and their attempt to make him the spokes person of the party. He is not. Like Chenney or not I have the feeling that history will show he did what needed to be done after 9/11 like it or not. Sometimes someone has to do the dirty work.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561156]The folks who wrote the case study don't really matter. He was prosecuted with 19 counts of violating the law and was found not guilty on all 19 counts.[/quote]From the point of law absolutely correct.

However, the statistics mentioned from the Kansas Dept. of Health should be considered in the context of your earlier post of situations a) and b). The issue raised by the person who wrote the case study that Tiller was performing at least 50% of his late-term abortions on viable fetuses (babies) where there the mother's life was not in danger appears to be borne out in the statistics.

What isn't shown (I'm sure by design) is whether the reason for the abortion to "[FONT=Arial]Prevent substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" [FONT=Verdana]was a physical or mental health issue. If the case study is true, that Tiller was using "mental health" issues as justification for the late term abortions, while not illegal, his actions are much morally worse than if he was legitimately trying to save women's lives or aborting unviable fetuses.[/FONT][/FONT]

[URL="http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/absumm.html"]KDHE Center for Health and Environmental Statistics[/URL]

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561154]There are only 3 late term abortion clinics in the entire nation, without him there are only 2.[/quote]I do believe this in itself says a lot. Late-term abortions, in any situation, are highly controversial at best, downright illegal at worst.

[quote=firstdown;561157]The rape thing is a very poor choice as I'm sure most victims find out very quickly if they are not prenant and don't need to wait until their third trimester to have an abortion.[/quote]I generally agree with this. Those who take the position that abortion is justified by rape occurrences really can't act 5-6 months isn't enough time to make a difficult decision. Obviously, a situation that provides life-threatening health risks to the mother is way murkier.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=GTripp0012;561238]I do believe this in itself says a lot. Late-term abortions, in any situation, are highly controversial at best, downright illegal at worst.

I generally agree with this. Those who take the position that abortion is justified by rape occurrences really can't act 5-6 months isn't enough time to make a difficult decision. Obviously, a situation that provides life-threatening health risks to the mother is way murkier.[/quote]

I agree that abortion should be provided in rape cases just in the first trimester or something like that. I'm pretty neutral on the whole abortion thing until it comes to the late term stuff then it starts to turn my stomach.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;561236]From the point of law absolutely correct.

However, the statistics mentioned from the Kansas Dept. of Health should be considered in the context of your earlier post of situations a) and b). The issue raised by the person who wrote the case study that Tiller was performing at least 50% of his late-term abortions on viable fetuses (babies) where there the mother's life was not in danger appears to be borne out in the statistics.

What isn't shown (I'm sure by design) is whether the reason for the abortion to "[FONT=Arial]Prevent substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" [FONT=Verdana]was a physical or mental health issue. If the case study is true, that Tiller was using "mental health" issues as justification for the late term abortions, while not illegal, his actions are much morally worse than if he was legitimately trying to save women's lives or aborting unviable fetuses.[/FONT][/FONT]

[URL="http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/absumm.html"]KDHE Center for Health and Environmental Statistics[/URL][/quote]

What you're saying is that mental illness isn't a valid reason to abort viable fetus. I find this take ridicules knowing that mental illness is as much of a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression"]serious illness[/URL] as physical illness if not worse. Like postpartumt depression [URL="http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/depressionduringpregnancy.html"]antepartum depression[/URL] is no joke. Often the chemical imbalance (can be categorized as physical illness too) brought about by pregnancy is so sever that abortion is the most logical course of action less you want depression to go untreated (not a good idea due to the fact that it can lead to psychosis if untreated, isn't that right TTL?).

People whose arguments are mainly based on god should not be taken seriously.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561257]What you're saying is that mental illness isn't a valid reason to abort viable fetus. I find this take ridicules knowing that mental illness is as much of a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression"]serious illness[/URL] as physical illness if not worse. Like postpartumt depression [URL="http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/depressionduringpregnancy.html"]antepartum depression[/URL] is no joke. Often the chemical imbalance (can be categorized as physical illness too) brought about by pregnancy is so sever that abortion is the most logical course of action less you want depression to go untreated (not a good idea due to the fact that it can lead to psychosis if untreated, isn't that right TTL?).

People whose arguments are mainly based on god should not be taken seriously.[/quote]Uh, no, I don't think being diagnosed with a mental disorder can justify a late-term abortion. Understanding the seriousness of many mental disorders, it's not on par with a direct, cause and effect life-threatening unviable fetus situation. It just isn't the same thing.

There is a time at which a women's mental health should be of primary concern to her physician. What you're saying is that, if left untreated for the first 7-8 months after conception, the entire process should be re-evaluated? Sorry, but I can't buy that there would ever be a situation where a late-term abortion would "make the most sense" for mental health. It's a strawman.

Your distrust for diety-based arguments is duely noted, though I would think you'd be best off avoiding as opposed to discrediting. Lest you be committing a logical fallacy by baselessly dissmissing a widely considered factor in arguments of morality.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561257]What you're saying is that mental illness isn't a valid reason to abort viable fetus. I find this take ridicules knowing that mental illness is as much of a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression"]serious illness[/URL] as physical illness if not worse. Like postpartumt depression [URL="http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/depressionduringpregnancy.html"]antepartum depression[/URL] is no joke. Often the chemical imbalance (can be categorized as physical illness too) brought about by pregnancy is so sever that abortion is the most logical course of action less you want depression to go untreated (not a good idea due to the fact that it can lead to psychosis if untreated, isn't that right TTL?).[/quote]Depression isn't a valid reason IMO to abort a viable fetus (baby) in the third trimester. Depression can be treated. Babies can be adopted. Death can't be turned back or fixed.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

This can not possibly be the best arguments by you lot. Your professional medical "expertise" notwithstanding mental illness onset is neither always instantaneous (it can progressively get worse) nor is always treatable (through medication and counseling). Granted, some might abuse the system by merely claiming they're suffering from mental illness when they are not but the prospect of abuse shouldn't preclude mental illness as a valid reason.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561279]This can not possibly be the best arguments by you lot. Your professional medical "expertise" notwithstanding mental illness onset is neither always instantaneous (it can progressively get worse) nor is always treatable (through medication and counseling). Granted, some might abuse the system by merely claiming they're suffering from mental illness when they are not but the prospect of abuse shouldn't preclude mental illness as a valid reason.[/quote]It never was a valid reason. A serious concern yes. But I think you have to downplay the seriousness of the late-term abortion to arrive at your conclusion. You previously compared life threatening propositions to postpartum depression; as serious a form as it comes, but still not quite the same thing nor the same reasoning.

I'm not trying to downplay anything here, but I think you need to re-assess.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=GTripp0012;561280]It never was a valid reason. A serious concern yes. But I think you have to downplay the seriousness of the late-term abortion to arrive at your conclusion. You previously compared life threatening propositions to postpartum depression; as serious a form as it comes, but still not quite the same thing nor the same reasoning.

I'm not trying to downplay anything here, but I think you need to re-assess.[/quote]
The left can come up with one excuse after another as to why its OK to have a late term abortion just like this doctor did time after time. Its like they don't even want to adress the nature of this procedure.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=GTripp0012;561280][B]It never was a valid reason.[/B] A serious concern yes. But I think you have to downplay the seriousness of the late-term abortion to arrive at your conclusion. You previously compared life threatening propositions to postpartum depression; as serious a form as it comes, [B]but still not quite the same thing nor the same reasoning[/B].

I'm not trying to downplay anything here, but I think you need to re-assess.[/quote]

If you are being serious you have failed miserably...totally...it's a disaster! I am neither downplaying nor up-playing anything but I do believe late term abortion due to mental illness is valid medical reason not because "I think it is" but because doctors think it is. You seem comfortable accusing me of downplaying late term abortion and yet even more comfortable dismissing its validity entirely for mental heath reasons. What exactly is the basis for your conclusion or are you simply relying on your morality?

This is terrible stuff man, really, and not well thought out. What if the mother is so f*cked up she commits suicide or wants to abort her own baby at home? Do you intend to lock suicidal pregnant women up in mental institutions or in jails?

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561317]If you are being serious you have failed miserably...totally...it's a disaster! I am neither downplaying or up-playing anything but I do believe late term abortion is valid medical reason not because "I think it is" but because doctors think it is. You seem comfortable accusing me of downplaying late term abortion and yet even more comfortable dismissing validity entirely for mental heath reasons. What exactly is the basis for your conclusion or are you simply relying on your morality?

This is terrible stuff man, really, and not well thought out. What if the mother is so f*cked up she commits suicide or wants to abort her own baby at home? Do you intend to lock suicidal pregnant women up in mental institutions or in jails?[/quote]
If doctors find its such an important issue then why is there only 2 left that still provide this much need procedure? Also your own link does not say the treatment for depression is late term abortion.


What is the treatment for depression during pregnancy?
If you feel you may be struggling with depression, the most important thing is to seek help. Talk with your health care provider about your symptoms and struggles. Your health care provider wants the healthiest choice for you and your baby and may discuss options with you for treatment. Treatment options for women who are pregnant can include:

Support groups
Private psychotherapy
Medication
Light therapy
If your symptoms are severe, your health care provider may want to prescribe medication immediately. There are medications that have been used during pregnancy without adverse affects. Discuss with your health care provider what he/she feels is safest for your baby but still beneficial to you.

If you do not feel comfortable talking with your health care provider about your feelings of depression, find someone else to talk with. The most important thing is that someone knows what you are dealing with and can try to help you. Never try to face depression alone. Your baby needs you to seek help and get treatment.

Last Updated: 10/2008

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;561318]If doctors find its such an important issue then why is there only 2 left that still provide this much need procedure? Also your own link does not say the treatment for depression is late term abortion.


What is the treatment for depression during pregnancy?
If you feel you may be struggling with depression, the most important thing is to seek help. Talk with your health care provider about your symptoms and struggles. Your health care provider wants the healthiest choice for you and your baby and may discuss options with you for treatment. Treatment options for women who are pregnant can include:

Support groups
Private psychotherapy
Medication
Light therapy
If your symptoms are severe, your health care provider may want to prescribe medication immediately. There are medications that have been used during pregnancy without adverse affects. Discuss with your health care provider what he/she feels is safest for your baby but still beneficial to you.

If you do not feel comfortable talking with your health care provider about your feelings of depression, find someone else to talk with. The most important thing is that someone knows what you are dealing with and can try to help you. Never try to face depression alone. Your baby needs you to seek help and get treatment.

Last Updated: 10/2008

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/quote]


Everything is black and white.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

I love how when don't know how to answer something you come back with a comment like that.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

It's a perfect response requiring little explanation. Why waste time seeing how you think depression is always treatable via non-abortion means? Abortion can be the treatment, this is obvious to me.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561327]It's a perfect response requiring little explanation. Why waste time seeing how you think depression is always treatable via non-abortion means? Abortion can be the treatment, this is obvious to me.[/quote]
So now your saying your link you gave to back your point is now wrong or you just figured out it does not support how you feel on the issue? Heck, I was even going to find a link that supported your arguement and when I typed in abortion and derpession all I got was sites that talked about depression after an abortion.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=firstdown;561333]So now your saying your link you gave to back your point is now wrong or you just figured out it does not support how you feel on the issue? Heck, I was even going to find a link that supported your arguement and when I typed in abortion and derpession all I got was sites that talked about depression after an abortion.[/quote]

The site says seek help and get treatment. It also says this:

[quote]There are medications that have been used during pregnancy [B]without adverse affects[/B]. Discuss with your health care provider what he/she feels is safest for your baby but [B]still beneficial to you[/B].
[/quote]

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

Quote from your Link:
There are medications that have been used during pregnancy without adverse affects. Discuss with your health care provider what he/she feels is safest for your baby but still beneficial to you.

I don't think the safest thing for the baby would be an abotion but you did not highlight that part.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561327]It's a perfect response requiring little explanation. Why waste time seeing how you think depression is always treatable via non-abortion means? [B]Abortion can be the treatment, this is obvious to me[/B].[/quote]Ah yes....I'm feeling overweight and depressed, plus I'm not ready to take care of a child. I couldn't figure this out in the first or second tri-mester. So I know, I'll have a late term abortionist stick a needle into my 22+ week old babies heart to kill it with drugs, induce labor, and leave the dead baby....I feel much better now.

I'm sure that won't have any adverse effects on a young woman's mental health....not to mention the baby's.

What I find confusing is that you will defend the rights of terrorists (adult murderers) so they aren't confined unjustly or waterboarded (not executed), but yet find every excuse to defend the actions of an abortionist who has performed well over 1,000 late term abortions on viable fetuses (babies) when the mother's life was NOT at risk. I think your moral compass is a bit off or you're unwilling to concede a point that is counter to your liberal ideology or you're just trying to get a rise out of your conservative counterparts

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;561367]Ah yes....I'm feeling overweight and depressed, plus I'm not ready to take care of a child. I couldn't figure this out in the first or second tri-mester. So I know, I'll have a late term abortionist stick a needle into my 22+ week old babies heart to kill it with drugs, induce labor, and leave the dead baby....I feel much better now.

I'm sure that won't have any adverse effects on a young woman's mental health....not to mention the baby's.

What I find confusing is that you will defend the rights of terrorists (adult murderers) so they aren't confined unjustly or waterboarded (not executed), but yet find every excuse to defend the actions of an abortionist who has performed well over 1,000 late term abortions on viable fetuses (babies) when the mother's life was NOT at risk. I think your moral compass is a bit off or you're unwilling to concede a point that is counter to your liberal ideology or you're just trying to get a rise out of your conservative counterparts[/quote]

Your confusion is self-inflected for I am rational and capable of articulating my position clearly. We always have options but the question is whether we choose the right option. As I have stated clearly on many occasions I oppose torture because there are other options and the fact that it is against the law. Similarly, I oppose late term abortions when the woman's life is not at risk due to physically or mentally ailment and if it was against the law I would oppose the practice. This is where the court of law comes into play. Furthermore, I have no problem with trying and putting to death terrorist who are found guilty in the court of law.

Yes, it's all that simple folks and if you take a moment to think it all through I am confidant you will see the consistency of my arguments.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561327]It's a perfect response requiring little explanation. Why waste time seeing how you think depression is always treatable via non-abortion means? Abortion can be the treatment, this is obvious to me.[/quote]I can also win any argument by having the quicker trigger finger, but that doesn't make it the right choice.

Treatment has to consider the betterment of all the parties. This would include the unborn. You appear to be okay killing off one party to stabilize the other, but many philosophers would suggest that your solution attacks the defenseless party at the expense of the party that was mistreated until this point. So, I dunno man, you're advocating the most brash of all treatments, and your argument is still a strawman since you are assuming that all mental illness is life-threatening.

But what your arguing is the difference between late-term abortions and more traditional abortions. The reason the former is "sketch" is because we're talking about a stage at which the fetus is in a very grey area between unborn and born. The difference between a late-term fetus and a premature birth is often just semantics.

Let's face it, you are looking at birth at the point in which you would apply human rights to the second party. There is nothing in natural law that states birth is more significant than conception or is more significant than any point in-between. This is a cultural division. Your denial of human rights up until a point is the EXACT REASON that late-term abortions are sketch. You've decided that there's a hard point at which a child should go from not having the right to life, to having all human rights, which fits the American legal perspective just fine, but does not account for the inherent gradual development of the situation. The eyes, nose, ears, and conscience don't just happen on birth man. I once again suggest you re-assess here.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

Natural law indeed...let's just cut to the chase people and say you oppose late term abortion under any and all circumstances and we call it a wrap.

p.s. Best believe my wife comes first...always...every day and all day.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561394]Natural law indeed...let's just cut to the chase people and say you oppose late term abortion under any and all circumstances and we call it a wrap.

p.s. Best believe if my wife comes first...always...every day and all day.[/quote]
Saden I feel the same way but that can be a really tough choice. I had a friend who had issues while she was in her second pregnancy and the doctor told her that she and/or her baby could dye if she went on with her pregnancy. I believe they said the child had like an 80% chance to live and she had like a 50% chance of surviving. They went as far as setting an appointment with a doctor to have the abortion (3rd Trimester) and that night as the baby was kicking she knew there was no way they could go through with the abortion. Well then came plan B and the doctors monitored her each day and when they thought it was the best time they would do a c section. Her problem was that all of her vital signs were real high and then one day while she was at the hospital they went total off the charts. They got her in and delivered the baby but my friend died a couple of hours later leaving behind the new born, 3 year old and the father.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

..............wow............that makes me sad
I praise her courage and love to knowingly make a decision to possibly sacrifice herself for her unborn child. NO greater gift can be given. I hope dad was (and is) able to vew it like that.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561327]It's a perfect response requiring little explanation. Why waste time seeing how you think depression is always treatable via non-abortion means? Abortion can be the treatment, this is obvious to me.[/quote]

I have a family member, who had an abortion. Her depression and life took huge backwards regressions, as she realized the nature of what she had done. Now mind you, this was an early term abortion, legal at the time(mid 70s) and not life threatening to her. Now, from her experience alone, not stats/facts/morals/logic/etc, I offer one point for you to consider. When a depressed person realizes that a late term abortion actually killed a viable baby life, do you not think it is possible, maybe likely, that a More severe depression may take hold of her?

For me, this does not seem like a solution to providing stable mental health. If the mother is traumatized, then bring the child into life, and let her seek treatment and try to heal her mental, and emotional traumas through other methods.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561394]Natural law indeed...let's just cut to the chase people and say you oppose late term abortion under any and all circumstances and we call it a wrap.

p.s. Best believe my wife comes first...always...every day and all day.[/quote]Because it's simply never that clear cut. However, I think law should better reflect the reality of the situation, that the closer and closer a woman gets to 9 months, her legal options become progressively more limited.

I'm okay with law reflecting a pro-choice perspective, but I also think that you can have implicit choice situations, and pretty much any situation where the fetus could be considered "near birth" needs to inherit a whole new set of rights. No doubt the situation can be complicated by any number of effects as you have pointed out. But law should not be all that liberal on late-term abortions. It should be much clearer on what constitutes an exception.

I have no problem with you suggesting an abortion might treat the issue, and my answer would just be that it shouldn't be legal treatment. I'm okay with most stem-cell treatments, abortions, not so much.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;561437]I have a family member, who had an abortion. Her depression and life took huge backwards regressions, as she realized the nature of what she had done. Now mind you, this was an early term abortion, legal at the time(mid 70s) and not life threatening to her. Now, from her experience alone, not stats/facts/morals/logic/etc, I offer one point for you to consider. When a depressed person realizes that a late term abortion actually killed a viable baby life, do you not think it is possible, maybe likely, that a More severe depression may take hold of her?

For me, this does not seem like a solution to providing stable mental health. If the mother is traumatized, then bring the child into life, and let her seek treatment and try to heal her mental, and emotional traumas through other methods.[/quote]

I have always understood the fact that abortion can be mentally traumatic event after the fact and I equally understand that the opposite can be true. That is to say in certain cases it can also be mentally traumatic to continue with a pregnancy. One can not deny one possibility and affirm the other.

I feel bad for your aunt but the fact that she might suffer from sever depression after an abortion should not preclude her from having the choice. I doubt people were as informed back then but now we know a lot more and people can make a conscious decision as to whether they want to take the risk or not. If I am not mistaken "the state can not foolproof people from themselves" is a time tested conservative mantra.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

Assuming that the women has an authentic medical condition that would mean that having an abortion may save her life, the moral dilemma is still vexatious. The reason that there are only a few doctors who perform late term abortions is that apparently you actually have to be an excellent surgeon to do them. Early abortions are quite simple and many states do not even require practitioners to be licensed physicians. Late term procedures are dangerous to the women because a sloppy procedure can leave bone fragments that can damage the uterus (and other parts I guess) and the head of the fetus is usually too large to be removed through the birth canal intact. You have to know what you are doing. This is not the simple extraction of a doughy lump of cells. This is something else and this is why its troublesome. While a doctor performing one of these procedures may be able to say that he has saved the mother's life, he (or she) must also wrestle with the the fact that in order to effectively do so, he has to quite skillfully destroy another.

Furthermore, these procedures are quite expensive. I would worry that the lucrative nature of a practice like George Tiller's would cause an unscrupulous practitioner to treat perfectly healthy women. We all remember the cases of these girls who drop a baby in the bathroom at the prom. In other words, there are mothers who are the picture of health who hit month 6 and suddenly decide "Oh. I need to do something about this". Such a situation may be painful for the women and perhaps the child is doomed to an unhappy life (or maybe not), but one has to weigh that fact against those bone shards and the crushed skull I mentioned above. It seems like we are relying on the people making the money to decide if these women are really in danger and that worrys me.

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=70Chip;561452]Assuming that the women has an authentic medical condition that would mean that having an abortion may save her life, the moral dilemma is still vexatious. The reason that there are only a few doctors who perform late term abortions is that apparently you actually have to be an excellent surgeon to do them. Early abortions are quite simple and many states do not even require practitioners to be licensed physicians. Late term procedures are dangerous to the women because a sloppy procedure can leave bone fragments that can damage the uterus (and other parts I guess) and the head of the fetus is usually too large to be removed through the birth canal intact. You have to know what you are doing. This is not the simple extraction of a doughy lump of cells. This is something else and this is why its troublesome. While a doctor performing one of these procedures may be able to say that he has saved the mother's life, he (or she) must also wrestle with the the fact that in order to effectively do so, he has to quite skillfully destroy another.

Furthermore, these procedures are quite expensive. [B] I would worry that the lucrative nature of a practice like George Tiller's would cause an unscrupulous practitioner to treat perfectly healthy women.[/B] We all remember the cases of these girls who drop a baby in the bathroom at the prom. In other words, there are mothers who are the picture of health who hit month 6 and suddenly decide "Oh. I need to do something about this". Such a situation may be painful for the women and perhaps the child is doomed to an unhappy life (or maybe not), but one has to weigh that fact against those bone shards and the crushed skull I mentioned above. It seems like we are relying on the people making the money to decide if these women are really in danger and that worrys me.[/quote]

If there a few practitioners who must be very skilled, are constantly under threat that they must wear bullet proof vests, and aren't even safe in god's house the money is bound to be good. The question is are they doing it for the money and is it worth it?

Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party
 

[quote=saden1;561455]If there a few practitioners who must be very skilled, are constantly under threat that they must wear bullet proof vests, and aren't even safe in god's house the money is bound to be good. The question is are they doing it for the money and is it worth it?[/quote]
Yea, it takes alot of skill to suck the brains out of a 6 month old fetus an if it was that hard how did the peopl back in the days do them in a dark alley. I heard last night this guy has performed over 64,000 abortions. Not sure how you can have any heart or feelings with those kind of numbers and if you look at the guy he looks like one of those guys you see on the post office wall wanted for some creepy crime.