Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;560251]Pretty partisan article, but the information contained indicates there was much information that was obtained through "enhanced interrogations" that was not obtained by softer means. If correct, a second 9/11 in LA was thwarted by the actions of the CIA and Bush Admin.

[URL="http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWQyMDUzNjk4ZjFmMzhkZGJjZGI3OTRjOGYzMDQxMjQ"]Cracking KSM by Deroy Murdock on National Review Online[/URL]=[/quote]

There are good arguments for either side

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html"]The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)[/URL]

I'm honestly on the fence. I really don't know what the answer is.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560258]What is your plan to bring peace to this world?[/quote]

There is no plan. it is a ridiculous notion.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=FRPLG;560262]There is no plan. it is a ridiculous notion.[/quote]

I see you have already accepted what is. You are on the right path, my friend.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Mattyk72;560259]There are good arguments for either side

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html"]The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)[/URL]

I'm honestly on the fence. I really don't know what the answer is.[/quote]The unfortunate part is that these decsions have to be made in the first place and will continue to have to be made for the forseeable future.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560246]Violence will never end violence. You claim it is ended in the situation you posed, but it is only temporarily gone. Awareness and Consciousness are the only ways to bring peace to this world.[/quote]

I'm sure Nick Berg would agree with you.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560246]Violence will never end violence. You claim it is ended in the situation you posed, but it is only temporarily gone. Awareness and Consciousness are the only ways to bring peace to this world.[/quote]

Really may be going over the top with this, but I am pretty sure that Nuking Japan (or firebombing them if we hadn't nuked em) is what it took to stop them. As for awareness and conciousness and diplomacy, I am pretty sure all that was tried with Hitler right up to the point he rolled tanks into Poland.
Fact of the matter is that sometimes, you gotta show that you can "get down and dirty" in order for the awareness and consciousness to set in on people whose actions are ruled by idiomatic beliefs.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560258]What is your plan to bring peace to this world?[/quote]

Man, I soooo want to answer, kill them all and let God sort them out.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Daseal;560243]Trample, perhaps Im wrong here -- but I believe the question was are you okay with Americans being tortured by terrorists, rather than American traitors.[/quote]

I think the assumption is that if we don't torture terrorist than they'll be nice to our captured troops? Whoever believes that needs to have their head examined.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;560267]I'm sure Nick Berg would agree with you.[/quote]

He probably would. I watched the video, and it seemed to me that he accepted what is.

Funny thing is, there is no Nick Berg -- only the One Life, the One Energy. Isn't it amazing to think that the atoms in your body were created inside stars?

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;560268]Really may be going over the top with this, but I am pretty sure that Nuking Japan (or firebombing them if we hadn't nuked em) is what it took to stop them. As for awareness and conciousness and diplomacy, I am pretty sure all that was tried with Hitler right up to the point he rolled tanks into Poland.
Fact of the matter is that sometimes, you gotta show that you can "get down and dirty" in order for the awareness and consciousness to set in on people whose actions are ruled by idiomatic beliefs.[/quote]

You and I are talking about different things. What you call consciousness and awareness are not the Consciousness and Awareness I am talking about.

You cannot force Consciousness and Awareness on people -- it must come from within.

As for Japan and Hitler, you see the world through right and wrong -- rather than what is. There is no right and wrong, only what is. By seeing the world through right and wrong, you'll never be able to accept what is. Therefore, you'll be in constant resistance to the "world" as you see it, and you will continually suffer.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

Even the DoD knows violence (military action) is [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/11/rand.insurgencies/index.html"]not a good solution[/URL] to solving the terrorism threat so all you couch six star generals ain't got no cloths. Just ask the Russians, they'll tell you you're naked.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=saden1;560284]Even the DoD knows violence (military action) is [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/11/rand.insurgencies/index.html"]not a good solution[/URL] to solving the terrorism threat so all you couch six star generals ain't got no cloths. Just ask the Russians, they'll tell you you're naked.[/quote]

What the report fails to address in the proverbial "nuclear option". If we wanted we could go the way of dictators and simply kill every freaking last one of them. That isn't our way though.

But yeah in the long run our national discussion needs to change towards newer more favorable methods for fighting this stuff. Practical methods that can work. The first thing we need to get straight on though is expectations. We cannot expect to ever make everyone happy. There will never be peace in the world. At least in a world of 7 billion humans beings all with competing interests. And where there are unhappy people there will be undoubtedly some crazy people and unhappy crazy people blow up buses and fly planes into buildings. We have to accept that we can't end terrorism we can only hope to contain it.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=saden1;560284]Even the DoD knows violence (military action) is [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/11/rand.insurgencies/index.html"]not a good solution[/URL] to solving the terrorism threat so all you couch six star generals ain't got no cloths. Just ask the Russians, they'll tell you you're naked.[/quote]And you were questioning Trample's reading comprehension.....

This study simply states that "nation building" in the long term is more effective than the current strategy (boots on the ground being targets). from the article "It says massive military interventions against insurgencies usually fail." No argument here, we are facing an uphill climb.

However it encourages; "....[B]special operations against high-value targets[/B]." Anytime Special Ops are involved you can be pretty sure "violence" is involved.

The USSR had a totally different reason for being in Afghanistan than we do. They were attempting to expand their empire. We are responding to the worst attack on U.S. soil since Pearl Harbor. The USSR tried to take over Afghanistan. We are attempting to allow the people of Afghanistan to control their own country and form a stable democracy.

We went into Afghanistan and Iraq, nothing can change that. What do you suggest we do now, just pull out and leave a HUGE void that will certainly be filled by extremists/terrorists? There is a reason Iran is funding and supporting terrorist groups efforts to de-stabilize Iraq and Afghanistan.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;560294]And you were questioning Trample's reading comprehension.....

This study simply states that "nation building" in the long term is more effective than the current strategy (boots on the ground being targets). from the article "It says massive military interventions against insurgencies usually fail." No argument here, we are facing an uphill climb.

However it encourages; "....[B]special operations against high-value targets[/B]." Anytime Special Ops are involved you can be pretty sure "violence" is involved.

The USSR had a totally different reason for being in Afghanistan than we do. They were attempting to expand their empire. We are responding to the worst attack on U.S. soil since Pearl Harbor. The USSR tried to take over Afghanistan. We are attempting to allow the people of Afghanistan to control their own country and form a stable democracy.

We went into Afghanistan and Iraq, nothing can change that. What do you suggest we do now, just pull out and leave a HUGE void that will certainly be filled by extremists/terrorists? There is a reason Iran is funding and supporting terrorist groups efforts to de-stabilize Iraq and Afghanistan.[/quote]

Sure, we are, "attempting to allow the people of Afghanistan to control their own country and form a stable democracy." However, the study shows our efforts (U.S. military intervention) are, "at best inadequate, at worst counter-productive, and, on the whole, infeasible."

So, we need to change what we're doing. In essence, we need to abandon, "U.S. military intervention and occupation in the Muslim world." Instead, we should, "focus [our] priorities on improving 'civil governance' and building 'local security forces,' according to the report, referring to those steps as 'capabilities that have been lacking in Iraq and Afghanistan.'"

That is what the study says.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560299]Sure, we are, "attempting to allow the people of Afghanistan to control their own country and form a stable democracy." However, the study shows our efforts (U.S. military intervention) are, "at best inadequate, at worst counter-productive, and, on the whole, infeasible."

So, we need to change what we're doing. In essence, we need to abandon, "U.S. military intervention and occupation in the Muslim world." Instead, we should, "focus [our] priorities on improving 'civil governance' and building 'local security forces,' according to the report, referring to those steps as 'capabilities that have been lacking in Iraq and Afghanistan.'"

That is what the study says.[/quote]

I think it says compassion is the path to peace and righteousness . If special forces could eliminate terrorism they would have. Special forces is a precision tool whose value in the short term I am not willing to deny but in the long term it is worthless if you're dealing with free range lemmings.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560299]So, we need to change what we're doing. In essence, we need to abandon, "U.S. military intervention and occupation in the Muslim world." Instead, we should, "focus [our] priorities on improving 'civil governance' and building 'local security forces,' according to the report, referring to those steps as 'capabilities that have been lacking in Iraq and Afghanistan.'"

That is what the study says.[/quote]OK, we agree on what the study says.

From my post: This study simply states that "nation building" in the long term is more effective than the current strategy (boots on the ground being targets). from the article "It says massive military interventions against insurgencies usually fail." No argument here, we are facing an uphill climb.

However, "we" (the U.S.) shouldn't be in the business of nation-building. Unfortunately at this point we are stuck getting Iraq and Afghanistan stabilized, but this shouldn't be our policy going forward. I don't think a big group hug with Al Qaeda and other Muslim extremists is going to help the situation either.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;560304]OK, we agree on what the study says.

From my post: This study simply states that "nation building" in the long term is more effective than the current strategy (boots on the ground being targets). from the article "It says massive military interventions against insurgencies usually fail." No argument here, we are facing an uphill climb.

[B]However, "we" (the U.S.) shouldn't be in the business of nation-building. Unfortunately at this point we are stuck getting Iraq and Afghanistan stabilized, but this shouldn't be our policy going forward. I don't think a big group hug with Al Qaeda and other Muslim extremists is going to help the situation either.[/B][/quote]

While it shouldn't, this is gonna be going on for years to come. Iraq and Aftgan are not even done, and NKorea and Iran will soon be in the works. On the brightside it should help provide more jobs.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=saden1;560301][SIZE=5]I think it says compassion is the path to peace[/SIZE] [SIZE=5]and righteousness[/SIZE] . If special forces could eliminate terrorism they would have. Special forces is a precision tool whose value in the short term I am not willing to deny but in the longer term it is worthless if you're dealing with free range lemmings.[/quote]
Dang I laughed so hard when I read your first line the others in my office wanted to hear the joke. Thats what Obama has been saying about Iran and N Korea and every day they are testing new stuff like never before. What to fear anymore? The UN.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560274]He probably would. I watched the video, and it seemed to me that he accepted what is.

Funny thing is, there is no Nick Berg -- only the One Life, the One Energy. Isn't it amazing to think that the atoms in your body were created inside stars?[/quote]

Dude, I stopped smoking pot a long time ago. What are you talking about? Why don't you post like a normal human being and leave that transcendentalist bs alone, or I'll just be forced to ignore you unless I need a good laugh.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;560353][B]Dude, I stopped smoking pot a long time ago.[/B] What are you talking about? Why don't you post like a normal human being and leave that transcendentalist bs alone, or I'll just be forced to ignore you unless I need a good laugh.[/quote]

You're not fooling anyone...it's okay to admit it...it might even help explain your psychosis.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=firstdown;560329]Dang I laughed so hard when I read your first line the others in my office wanted to hear the joke. Thats what Obama has been saying about Iran and N Korea and every day they are testing new stuff like never before. What to fear anymore? The UN.[/quote]

What do you have against Jesus' teachings?

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Mattyk72;560250] let's not pretend like hitting back solves everything in the end.[/quote]


sometimes it works and sometimes it don't but regardless, you, me, him, her, the USA need to stand up and fight back.:boxing:

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;560353]Dude, I stopped smoking pot a long time ago. What are you talking about? Why don't you post like a normal human being and leave that transcendentalist bs alone, or I'll just be forced to ignore you unless I need a good laugh.[/quote]

What you call a "normal" human being is in a constant state of dysfunction. No thanks.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;560304]OK, we agree on what the study says.

From my post: This study simply states that "nation building" in the long term is more effective than the current strategy (boots on the ground being targets). from the article "It says massive military interventions against insurgencies usually fail." No argument here, we are facing an uphill climb.

However, "we" (the U.S.) shouldn't be in the business of nation-building. Unfortunately at this point we are stuck getting Iraq and Afghanistan stabilized, but this shouldn't be our policy going forward. I don't think a big group hug with Al Qaeda and other Muslim extremists is going to help the situation either.[/quote]

If we are in Iraq and Afghanistan for "national security reasons", then we should be in the business of nation-building -- unless we want to fail, because occupation is not working.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=FRPLG;560293]What the report fails to address in the proverbial "nuclear option". If we wanted we could go the way of dictators and simply kill every freaking last one of them. That isn't our way though.

But yeah in the long run our national discussion needs to change towards newer more favorable methods for fighting this stuff. Practical methods that can work. The first thing we need to get straight on though is expectations. We cannot expect to ever make everyone happy. There will never be peace in the world. At least in a world of 7 billion humans beings all with competing interests. And where there are unhappy people there will be undoubtedly some crazy people and unhappy crazy people blow up buses and fly planes into buildings. We have to accept that we can't end terrorism we can only hope to contain it.[/quote]

Every action has equal and opposite reaction. The equal and opposite reaction to the "nuclear option' is not a pleasant one and that much I am certain of. Maybe we won't feel the reaction immediately, maybe not in 5 years or 10 but eventually the reaction would be at our door step. This isn't merely philosophical musing but a fact of life.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560358]What you call a "normal" human being is in a constant state of dysfunction. No thanks.[/quote]


if your telling us that you are not "normal", i would totally agree. :)

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=saden1;560364]Every action has equal and opposite reaction. The equal and opposite reaction to the "nuclear option' is not a pleasant one and that much I am certain of. Maybe we won't feel the reaction immediately, maybe not in 5 years or 10 but eventually the reaction would be at our door step. This isn't merely philosophical musing but a fact of life.[/quote]

Totally agree.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=saden1;560364]Every action has equal and opposite reaction. The equal and opposite reaction to the "nuclear option' is not a pleasant one and that much I am certain of. Maybe we won't feel the reaction immediately, maybe not in 5 years or 10 but eventually the reaction would be at our door step. This isn't merely philosophical musing but a fact of life.[/quote]

ya know, we nuked Japan, and now have had 60+ years of peace with them. Maybe your equal and opposite fact has some truth, so if we all out nukem, then we could have an incredibly long peace with everyone else. Kinda reminds me of the burning of Carthage.

ok, this was just philosophical musings.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;560131]I thought you renovated that school?[/quote]
Yeah, I'm done with H. Springs. Now I'm about 3/4 done with Douglas Freeman, and after that I'm hoping for some "shovel ready" projects courtesy of the big O. Our shop just laid-off 17 employees last week. Maybe I should stop being a technician and start my own wind mill company.

But, to respond to the topic at hand, I sure am glad that some of you are not in-charge of our nations' defenses. Remember boys and girls what I always say, "except for ending slavery, Fascism, Nazism, Communism and terrorism, war has never solved anything.[IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon12.gif[/IMG]

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=4mrusmc;560392]Yeah, I'm done with H. Springs. Now I'm about 3/4 done with Douglas Freeman, and after that I'm hoping for some "shovel ready" projects courtesy of the big O. Our shop just laid-off 17 employees last week. Maybe I should stop being a technician and start my own wind mill company.

But, to respond to the topic at hand, I sure am glad that some of you are not in-charge of our nations' defenses. Remember boys and girls what I always say, "except for ending [b]slavery, Fascism, Nazism, Communism and terrorism[/b], war has never solved anything.[IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon12.gif[/IMG][/quote]

Have those things been ended?

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560416]Have those things been ended?[/quote]

LOL...you expect too much.


[COLOR=DarkRed]WARNING[/COLOR]: "Obscene" language used in the clip.

[yt]u6rDeOojFXk[/yt]

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;560390]ya know, we nuked Japan, and now have had 60+ years of peace with them. Maybe your equal and opposite fact has some truth, so if we all out nukem, then we could have an incredibly long peace with everyone else. Kinda reminds me of the burning of Carthage.

ok, this was just philosophical musings.[/quote]

It is the Japanese who felt our reaction to their attack at PH and I must say our reaction was not equal and opposite but rather a vicious knockout punch.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560360]If we are in Iraq and Afghanistan for "national security reasons", then we should be in the business of nation-building -- unless we want to fail, because occupation is not working.[/quote]We aren't "occupying". If we were we'd be taking oil revenue from Iraq and not pumping billions into both countries to "nation-build".

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=saden1;560425]LOL...you expect too much.


[COLOR=darkred]WARNING[/COLOR]: "Obscene" language used in the clip.

[yt]u6rDeOojFXk[/yt][/quote]If only Gates would deliver this speech to Congress, N. Korea wouldn't be testing any more missles LOL

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;560454]If only Gates would deliver this speech to Congress, N. Korea wouldn't be testing any more missles LOL[/quote]

You can't stop Kim, you can only hope to contain him Team America.

[yt]f0hk9vaqWUg[/yt]

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

Last night I waterboarded myself and it was not that bad.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=firstdown;560470]Last night I waterboarded myself and it was not that bad.[/quote]

I drowned myself if Alcohol a few times.

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=4mrusmc;560392]Yeah, I'm done with H. Springs. Now I'm about 3/4 done with Douglas Freeman, and after that I'm hoping for some "shovel ready" projects courtesy of the big O. Our shop just laid-off 17 employees last week. Maybe I should stop being a technician and start my own wind mill company.

But, to respond to the topic at hand, I sure am glad that some of you are not in-charge of our nations' defenses. Remember boys and girls what I always say, "except for ending slavery, Fascism, Nazism, Communism and terrorism, war has never solved anything.[IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon12.gif[/IMG][/quote]
The problem with building wind mills is after the libs bitch that we are not building any they then say he!! no not in my back yard.
[url=http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/2/27/113830.shtml]Ted Kennedy Wants Windmills Killed[/url]

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=Mattyk72;559632]Interesting...

[url=http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Mancow-Takes-on-Waterboarding-and-Loses.html]Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture | NBC Chicago[/url][/quote]

He had a follow-up statement today

[url=http://www.radioandrecords.com/RRWebSite20/Members/ShowHeadLine.aspx?ContentID=49808&ContentTypeID=101&Archive=0&FormatId=0]Welcome to Radio and Records[/url]

Re: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It's Torture
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;560416]Have those things been ended?[/quote]
Some times Dog you have to pull up your big boy pants and defend what is right. We can debate lacking intestinal fortitude AFTER brave and couragous people do what must be done. Too many innocent and defenseless lives are at stake here. It's a cruel world out there my friend.