Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708194]You forget that condoning executions creates a culture of killing. Spiral on.[/quote]

When this thing goes down you might have to change your point of view. If not you'll be fodder.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

When what goes down?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708219]When what goes down?[/quote]

You don't actually think this country can keep on going on the way it has been forever do you? Collapse is coming soon enough. It might not be this year or next year, but it's coming. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time more of you will starve because you don't know how to grow food. You'll depend on (or be taken advantage of by), people like me. We have no problems with killing or murder. Actually, there are a few people that I'm going to off as soon as the cops are out of the way. This country is being run into the grown. I've prepared and I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708230]You don't actually think this country can keep on going on the way it has been forever do you? Collapse is coming soon enough. It might not be this year or next year, but it's coming. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time more of you will starve because you don't know how to grow food. You'll depend on (or be taken advantage of by), people like me. We have no problems with killing or murder. Actually, there are a few people that I'm going to off as soon as the cops are out of the way. This country is being run into the grown. I've prepared and I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun.[/quote]

Ahh yes, the obligatory prophet of doom: "The World is Ending Repent Now!!"

or, in TTE is case: "The USA is ending, stock you bomb shelter now!!"

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;708232]Ahh yes, the obligatory prophet of doom: "The World is Ending Repent Now!!"

or, in TTE is case: "The USA is ending, stock you bomb shelter now!!"[/quote]

7.62 rounds and rice to be exact.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

I was thinking, I've actually have more respect for this guy than many of the people I meet. He said he took people's lives with a gun, so he wanted to be killed by a gun. Live by the gun, die by the gun. That takes some balls.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708230]You don't actually think this country can keep on going on the way it has been forever do you? Collapse is coming soon enough. It might not be this year or next year, but it's coming. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time more of you will starve because you don't know how to grow food. You'll depend on (or be taken advantage of by), people like me. We have no problems with killing or murder. Actually, there are a few people that I'm going to off as soon as the cops are out of the way. This country is being run into the grown. I've prepared and I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun.[/quote]

Thought you said you weren't into fairy tales?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708242]Thought you said you weren't into fairy tales?[/quote]

The Federal government is going to default on it's commitments.

If we didn't own Moodys our credit rating would be junk.

It is impossible to pay off this debt, ever.

We've been overtaken by China in manufacturing.

We're stuck in endless wars.

Sooner or later the Chinese are going to un-peg the Yuan from the dollar, probably when they no longer need our market to dump their cheap products.

Many countries want to dump the dollar as a reserve currency. The Russians introduced new world currency just recently.

Our number one export is arms.

Our number one cash crop is marijuana.

How is this a fairy tale?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

How do you run a country into the grown?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=SmootSmack;708245]How do you run a country into the grown?[/quote]

Ship the jobs overseas.

Dumb down the populace through pop culture and sub-par schools.

Slowly take away people's rights in exchange for security.

Tax the middle class into oblivion.

Let everyone and anyone come over your borders.

Degrade morals with drugs and sex.

Make wars without end.

Use race to divide and conquer the people.

I can go on forever with this.

[QUOTE=Trample the Elderly;708247]Ship the jobs overseas.

Dumb down the populace through pop culture and sub-par schools.

Slowly take away people's rights in exchange for security.

Tax the middle class into oblivion.

Let everyone and anyone come over your borders.

Degrade morals with drugs and sex.

Make wars without end.

Use race to divide and conquer the people.

I can go on forever with this.[/QUOTE]

TTE you and I see a lot of the same things, one difference I see though, is it seems like you are expecting anarchy(or revolution) to replace our current government. Revolution from the populace won't happen, the govt has made sure of that. A democratic republic is too stable to go directly to anarchy-the masses of people are not nearly restless enough to go there. Eventually the govt will have to defend itself from the people and external, I suspect by an american caeser. Remember rome survived caesers coup, and the wealthy were content for another 500 years. I doubt society will decay to anarchy in my lifetime, but I would be shocked if my children lived in a true democratic republic, or even one like our current form, when they turn 50.

As for the death penalty, joe's statements basically ring true for me.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708028]Murder is murder, period. Saying it's only justified as a punishment makes no sense to me at all. Yes, the act of murder should be punished. Life in prison is just fine. This eye for an eye bullshit however is absurd and caveman-esque thinking.

There are no statistics to show that the death penalty acts as a deterent and most families with a murdered family member report no feeling of satisfaction when their killer is put to death.[/quote]
While I do not disagree with your statement , you have to agree , if we put the worst of the worst , multiple rapes/murders , to death , the victims and their families never have to worry about the scum bag getting out and commiting another violent crime .

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

Some men deserve to die. If you're John Allen Muhammad, you get murked no matter the cost, if you're Daniel Sickles you get a prison sentence, if you're Daryl Atkins you get to spend time in a mental institution.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=budw38;708266]While I do not disagree with your statement , you have to agree , if we put the worst of the worst , multiple rapes/murders , to death , the victims and their families never have to worry about the scum bag getting out and commiting another violent crime .[/quote]

A life sentence with no possibility of parole does the trick too.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708247]Ship the jobs overseas.

Dumb down the populace through pop culture and sub-par schools.

Slowly take away people's rights in exchange for security.

Tax the middle class into oblivion.

Let everyone and anyone come over your borders.

Degrade morals with drugs and sex.

Make wars without end.

Use race to divide and conquer the people.

I can go on forever with this.[/quote]

Honestly you can draw comparisons across any civilization since the beginning of time. Yet we continue on.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708247]Ship the jobs overseas.

Dumb down the populace through pop culture and [B]sub-par schools[/B].

Slowly take away people's rights in exchange for security.

[B]Tax the middle class into oblivion. [/B]

Let everyone and anyone come over your borders.

Degrade morals with drugs and sex.

Make wars without end.

Use race to divide and conquer the people.

I can go on forever with this.[/quote]

If we abolish the death penalty, which is much more expensive than sentences of life in prison, we'd have more money to create better schools. Or we could reduce taxes on the middle class. Or we'd have more money to put more cops on the street, making us safer.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;708195]I have mixed feelings on the death penalty filled with subtle complexities. Primarily, I oppose “revenge killing” because I agree with Lotus that killing, whether by an individual or the State, done to exact revenge on another individual ultimately creates more hate. Throughout history, societies have recognized the destructive nature of such killings and have moved away from them in order to advance. As I have said before, Hammurabi’s Code – “an eye for an eye” - was actually a limitation on revenge killing because prior to that it had been “your arm, your leg and your child for my wife’s eye”.

At the same time, I generally agree with Schneed that a society can decide to deny the right of life in the interest of justice. We as a society are entitled to and expect that our government to provide “justice”. Again, look through history at most revolutions and civil wars, populations will put up with tyrants/dictators, etc. but not injustice. The right to deny life is just another one of those balancing acts between individual liberty and group rights that exist when groups of people live in civil society.

[B]The question for me is when does societal “justice” become societal “revenge”. I would suggest that often the death penalty, as it is applied in this country, is unjust as it seems that you may or may not get the death penalty depending on who you murder.[/B] Kill a hobo and get life in prison, kill a prominent pretty white girl, get the death penalty. This smacks more of revenge killing, i.e. we, as a society, valued the life of the pretty white girl more than the life of the hobo so we exact more “justice” from you for killing our favored individual. In such a case, it is not the denial of life that cries for justice – it is the denial of a specific life.

So, on one hand, I favor a fairly draconian application, you commit murder (i.e. you kill some one with “malice aforethought” or with such a “wanton disregard for others safety” that is the equivalent of malice).

On the other hand, I disagree with Schneed’s “cost of doing business” argument. To me, society’s justification for imposing the ultimate penalty is dependent upon the certainty that the criminal has committed the ultimate crime. Imposing the death penalty upon someone when we cannot be 100% sure the person is guilty borders on “wanton disregard for others safety” and undercuts the very argument for society’s “just” application of the death penalty (When an individual intentional kills someone and denies the victim of their right to life, it is wrong; BUT, if we intentionally kill someone who has not committed such a crime that’s just a big ole’ “oops” too bad so sad. To me that is a blatantly hypocritical stance - circle back to unjust and revenge killings).

Ultimately, and in my opinion, justice is something we as a society decide and for which we are all answerable. I generally agree with Schneed that we, as a society, can decide that it is “just” to deny an individual his right to life. At the same time, in the name of justice, this penalty is reserved for those we are 100% sure are guilty. However, if we are 100% sure they are guilty of murder, it does not matter who you murdered - you will die. Anything other than this strikes me as unjust and/or a form of revenge killing.[/quote]

You are correct but there is more to it than that. Getting the death penalty depends not just on whom you kill, but also who you are. Statistics show that there is a strong racial bias. FOr the same crime, if you are black you have a far higher percentage chance of getting the death penalty than if you are white. The death penalty simply does not enact justice.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708247]Ship the jobs overseas.

Dumb down the populace through pop culture and sub-par schools.

Slowly take away people's rights in exchange for security.

Tax the middle class into oblivion.

Let everyone and anyone come over your borders.

Degrade morals with drugs and sex.

Make wars without end.

Use race to divide and conquer the people.

I can go on forever with this.[/quote]

Swing...and a miss

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708281]You are correct but there is more to it than that. Getting the death penalty depends not just on whom you kill, but also who you are. Statistics show that there is a strong racial bias. FOr the same crime, [B]if you are black you have a far higher percentage chance of getting the death penalty than if you are white.[/B] The death penalty simply does not enact justice.[/quote]

Yeah. I don't know if it is still the case, but about 10 years ago a study was done which showed that murderers who killed a white person were slightly more likely to get the death penalty than someone who murdered an african-american (like 55-45). On the other hand, an african american murderer (regardless of victim) was twice as likely to get the death sentence as a white person (regardless of victim).

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708230]You don't actually think this country can keep on going on the way it has been forever do you? Collapse is coming soon enough. It might not be this year or next year, but it's coming. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time more of you will starve because you don't know how to grow food. You'll depend on (or be taken advantage of by), people like me. We have no problems with killing or murder. Actually, there are a few people that I'm going to off as soon as the cops are out of the way. This country is being run into the grown. I've prepared and I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun.[/quote]

I'm trying to decide if this type of outlook is genius or just flat out frightening...

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;708195]I have mixed feelings on the death penalty filled with subtle complexities. Primarily, I oppose “revenge killing” because I agree with Lotus that killing, whether by an individual or the State, done to exact revenge on another individual ultimately creates more hate. Throughout history, societies have recognized the destructive nature of such killings and have moved away from them in order to advance. As I have said before, Hammurabi’s Code – “an eye for an eye” - was actually a limitation on revenge killing because prior to that it had been “your arm, your leg and your child for my wife’s eye”.

At the same time, I generally agree with Schneed that a society can decide to deny the right of life in the interest of justice. We as a society are entitled to and expect that our government to provide “justice”. Again, look through history at most revolutions and civil wars, populations will put up with tyrants/dictators, etc. but not injustice. The right to deny life is just another one of those balancing acts between individual liberty and group rights that exist when groups of people live in civil society.

The question for me is when does societal “justice” become societal “revenge”. I would suggest that often the death penalty, as it is applied in this country, is unjust as it seems that you may or may not get the death penalty depending on who you murder. Kill a hobo and get life in prison, kill a prominent pretty white girl, get the death penalty. This smacks more of revenge killing, i.e. we, as a society, valued the life of the pretty white girl more than the life of the hobo so we exact more “justice” from you for killing our favored individual. In such a case, it is not the denial of life that cries for justice – it is the denial of a specific life.

So, on one hand, I favor a fairly draconian application, you commit murder (i.e. you kill some one with “malice aforethought” or with such a “wanton disregard for others safety” that is the equivalent of malice).

On the other hand, I disagree with Schneed’s “cost of doing business” argument. To me, society’s justification for imposing the ultimate penalty is dependent upon the certainty that the criminal has committed the ultimate crime. Imposing the death penalty upon someone when we cannot be 100% sure the person is guilty borders on “wanton disregard for others safety” and undercuts the very argument for society’s “just” application of the death penalty (When an individual intentional kills someone and denies the victim of their right to life, it is wrong; BUT, if we intentionally kill someone who has not committed such a crime that’s just a big ole’ “oops” too bad so sad. To me that is a blatantly hypocritical stance - circle back to unjust and revenge killings).

Ultimately, and in my opinion, justice is something we as a society decide and for which we are all answerable. I generally agree with Schneed that we, as a society, can decide that it is “just” to deny an individual his right to life. At the same time, in the name of justice, this penalty is reserved for those we are 100% sure are guilty. However, if we are 100% sure they are guilty of murder, it does not matter who you murdered - you will die. Anything other than this strikes me as unjust and/or a form of revenge killing.[/quote]

As usual, an extremely well-thought out, and well-articulated post from you.

Point of clarification on my "cost of doing business" point, I have to note that I see the risk of wrongly convicting as declining, because the burden of proof is increasing. So essentially, I'm asserting that statistics indicating the % of wrongful convictions are now not as applicable going forward, because of the "CSI effect" and the ever-increasing demands of juries that there be scientific forensic evidence present to gain a conviction. Circumstantial evidence is less and less often enough to convict.

And that's the way it should be. If we have the science, we should demand that it be employed.

So in summation on that point, I don't think the risk of wrongly putting someone to death is very great at this point. The errors are reduced (not eliminated, but reduced) by the prevalence of forensic science.

Given the high burden of proof and the lower error rates moving forward, I'm willing to accept the occasional death in the name of obtaining justice for the 99.9% that are rightfully convicted.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708271]A life sentence with no possibility of parole does the trick too.[/quote]
Honestly makes no difference to me , I guess I believe the people in each state have a right to vote on whether or not to execute . I also would add , if a man breaks into a home and rapes the women and her kid , I have no problem shooting that bag of garbage asap .

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Schneed10;708305]As usual, an extremely well-thought out, and well-articulated post from you.

Point of clarification on my "cost of doing business" point, I have to note that I see the risk of wrongly convicting as declining, because the burden of proof is increasing. So essentially, I'm asserting that statistics indicating the % of wrongful convictions are now not as applicable going forward, because of the "CSI effect" and the ever-increasing demands of juries that there be scientific forensic evidence present to gain a conviction. Circumstantial evidence is less and less often enough to convict.

And that's the way it should be. If we have the science, we should demand that it be employed.

So in summation on that point, [B]I don't think the risk of wrongly putting someone to death is very great at this point. The errors are reduced (not eliminated, but reduced) by the prevalence of forensic science.[/B]
Given the high burden of proof and the lower error rates moving forward, I'm willing to accept the occasional death in the name of obtaining justice for the 99.9% that are rightfully convicted.[/quote]

I hear you on that. It comes down to this: Do we let 999 murderers live the rest of their life in jail to insure we do not kill 1 innocent man? [I]or[/I] Do we kill a 999 guilty murderers with the knowledge that we have likely killed 1 innocent man? I believe we let them rot in jail.

For those where there is [I]no[/I] doubt, I got no problem so long as it is the same regardless of who they are [I]or [/I]who they murdered.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;708297]I'm trying to decide if this type of outlook is genius or just flat out frightening...[/quote]
Always the prophet........

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;708323]I hear you on that. It comes down to this: Do we let 999 murderers live the rest of their life in jail to insure we do not kill 1 innocent man? [I]or[/I] Do we kill a 999 guilty murderers with the knowledge that we have likely killed 1 innocent man? I believe we let them rot in jail.

[B]For those where there is [I]no[/I] doubt, I got no problem so long as it is the same regardless of who they are [I]or [/I]who they murdered[/B].[/quote]

I like that. I could subscribe to that newsletter.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Mattyk;708016]The death penalty should be abolished for so many reasons. The cost, the hypocrisy of it, the fact that too many innocent people are wrongly put to death, etc. It's just barbaric. As a so called "civilized" society we should be better than this.[/quote]

Indeed.. in some countries they still chop heads off or stone to death or whatever the case may be.

But somehow electrocution and causing internal organ failure is "humane" and we look at other countries as being barbaric.

It is not man's decision to whether another should live, only his responsibility to protect society from them. Stop locking people up for stupid shit and keep the real criminals behind bars.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;708019]Part of the state's authority in administering justice is to provide retribution to the victims and society in general. Someone rapes/murders my wife, sister or kills my son, godson, or niece, the state damn well better execute the SOB. If not, I'd do everything in my power to find a way to handle it.

The number of innocent people executed is extremely small and even smaller with today's better technology. What about the people who commit murder that would classify as a death penalty punishment, aren't they barbaric? A civilized society is ruled by laws, and violation of those laws requires punishment.[/quote]

ahhh the classic two wrongs make a right argument

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708230]You don't actually think this country can keep on going on the way it has been forever do you? Collapse is coming soon enough. It might not be this year or next year, but it's coming. It has happened before, it will happen again. This time more of you will starve because you don't know how to grow food. You'll depend on (or be taken advantage of by), people like me. We have no problems with killing or murder. Actually, there are a few people that I'm going to off as soon as the cops are out of the way. This country is being run into the grown. I've prepared and I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun.[/quote]

"dang it dale"

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;708247]Ship the jobs overseas.

Dumb down the populace through pop culture and sub-par schools.

Slowly take away people's rights in exchange for security.

Tax the middle class into oblivion.

Let everyone and anyone come over your borders.

Degrade morals with drugs and sex.

Make wars without end.

Use race to divide and conquer the people.

I can go on forever with this.[/quote]
degrade morals.. yet you plan to kill people when the cops are out of the way?

ummmmmmmmmmm.. which morals are we talking about here?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;708297]I'm trying to decide if this type of outlook is genius or just flat out frightening...[/quote]

the two are not mutually exclusive, far from it really

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=tryfuhl;708335]ahhh the classic two wrongs make a right argument[/quote]

Well, wouldn't it be wrong not to execute the person who rapes/kills SS33's niece, yet instead provide them with a roof over their head, clothing, toilet, and 3 meals a day while they live out the rest of their lives on the dime of the American taxpayer?

The most brutal and horrific crimes should be met with steepest of punishment. I'm not saying everyone convicted of murder should die, but the most hardcore, grisly, horrific killers/rapists have no place draining resources in our prison system. One way or another they're dying behind bars. Why not just get that shit over with? Considering what they've taken from their victims and their families, why should they be afforded the gift of time to read, relax, and "rehabilitate?"

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=tryfuhl;708337]degrade morals.. yet you plan to kill people when the cops are out of the way?

ummmmmmmmmmm.. which morals are we talking about here?[/quote]

he's already been degraded apparently

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GMScud;708341][B]Well, wouldn't it be wrong not to execute the person who rapes/kills SS33's niece, yet instead provide them with a roof over their head, clothing, toilet, and 3 meals a day while they live out the rest of their lives on the dime of the American taxpayer?[/B]

The most brutal and horrific crimes should be met with steepest of punishment. I'm not saying everyone convicted of murder should die, but the most hardcore, grisly, horrific killers/rapists have no place draining resources in our prison system. One way or another they're dying behind bars. Why not just get that shit over with? Considering what they've taken from their victims and their families, why should they be afforded the gift of time to read, relax, and "rehabilitate?"[/quote]

You make it sound like life in prison is a Club Med vacation or something. Actually life in prison is a pretty horrible price to pay on its own. Locking someone up for life is a very serious penalty.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GMScud;708341]Well, wouldn't it be wrong not to execute the person who rapes/kills SS33's niece, yet instead provide them with a roof over their head, clothing, toilet, and 3 meals a day while they live out the rest of their lives on the dime of the American taxpayer?

The most brutal and horrific crimes should be met with steepest of punishment. I'm not saying everyone convicted of murder should die, but the most hardcore, grisly, horrific killers/rapists have no place draining resources in our prison system. One way or another they're dying behind bars. Why not just get that shit over with? Considering what they've taken from their victims and their families, why should they be afforded the gift of time to read, relax, and "rehabilitate?"[/quote]

Are you trying to justify execution by somehow asserting that *not* executing them would be morally wrong?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GMScud;708341][B]Well, wouldn't it be wrong not to execute the person who rapes/kills SS33's niece, yet instead provide them with a roof over their head, clothing, toilet, and 3 meals a day while they live out the rest of their lives on the dime of the American taxpayer[/B]?

The most brutal and horrific crimes should be met with steepest of punishment. [B]I'm not saying everyone convicted of murder should die, but the most hardcore, grisly, horrific killers/rapists have no place draining resources in our prison system.[/B] One way or another they're dying behind bars. Why not just get that shit over with? Considering what they've taken from their victims and their families, why should they be afforded the gift of time to read, relax, and "rehabilitate?"[/quote]

See, this is part of the problem in applying the death penalty: Who gets to decide if its a "death worthy" crime? If not every killer should die, what defines "hardcore grisly" etc.? Who makes the call - the jury? the judge?

On one hand their is the laudatory goal of adding discretion to the system since (believe it or not) every case is different. On the other, once discretion is added, arbitrariness and injustice creep in. Once imposition of the death penalty becomes arbitrary, IMHO, it becomes unjust. Unfortunately, removing discretion (and therefore the possibility of arbitrariness), will inevitably lead to the death penalty being imposed upon someone whom “everybody” (read: a large majority of people) believes should not be killed.

For example:
Someone rapes and kills his 23 year old ex-girlfriend. Is that death worthy? Let's say it’s a nice "clean" rape and kill. The killer is basically a good guy who just snapped b/c of the break up. He breaks in, rapes her once, and then smothers her with a pillow. The police find him the next morning sobbing and saying he's sorry, and confessing to everything. Other than the rape, the woman was not tortured or excessively beaten.

Same story, but now its a burglar with no relation to the victim, and he is only found when he is picked up for some unrelated crime. Turns out the rape and kill were just crimes of "opportunity" as he did not expect to find anyone home.

Same story, but now it’s a person of no particular standing who stalked the woman with the intent to rape her. The rape and kill are again quick and relatively “clean”. The murderer is found and confesses after a police investigation. Although he confesses, he does not provide, and no one can determine, why he did the crimes (no known relation to victim, no history of violent crime, etc.).

Finally, it’s a person of no particular standing who stalked the woman with the intent to rape her. The rape is clearly brutal and the death painful. But, the woman has no relatives, she is a prostitute (though the rape took place while she was not “working”), has no family. While brutal (he physically beats her during the rape), she isn’t mutilated or “tortured”, the death, while painful, is quick.

In each case, we are 100% sure of the murderer.

In my opinion, either all get it or none get it. If we add bright lines to delineate, fine i.e. murder plus: any type of sexual assault, victim under the age of 17, any type of mutilation, any type of "torture". Each of these categories, of course, has their own grey areas (Murderer exposes himself and kills someone - is that a sexual assault? Murderer informs victim he has killed his entire family and raped his kids even though this is not true, Is that "torture”?).

Part of this (and this board shows it in microcosm) is that we each have a different idea of what "justice" is. Also, we each place a different emphasis on what rights the group has when in conflict with individual liberties. Similar to that, but slightly different, we each have a different idea as to what authority the civil society has and how much power it has/should have.

For me the priority is upon fairness and the society’s valuation of [I]innocent[/I] life. Any innocent life. It is not for individuals within the society to decide who shall live and who shall die – No one person has that right over me or my family and I have that right over no one else. It is for the society, the group, the whole, to come to a consensus and then enforce that decision equitably. I am bound to live by that consensus or move out.

Just look at the various points of view in this thread and you can see why we will always struggle with the subtleties of this topic. Quite frankly, IMHO, this is one of those where there is no “right” answer. We just muddle through it the best we can knowing that a large part of the society will always be dissatisfied with the result.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Lotus;708355]You make it sound like life in prison is a Club Med vacation or something. Actually life in prison is a pretty horrible price to pay on its own. Locking someone up for life is a very serious penalty.[/quote]

Yea its so bad some people get out of jail then commit a crime just to go back to jail. While I would never want to spend time in jail the system in the US is not that bad. Hell if they think something is not fair they can sue the jail/city in court. In my eyes when that cell door shuts behind you your rights are gone. I'd make those bastards work for their room and board.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708365]Are you trying to justify execution by somehow asserting that *not* executing them would be morally wrong?[/quote]Not executing the murderer shows that society has no power (or will) to provide restitution and justice to a victim's family. This is an issue of displaying to the people governed that their justice system will provide appropriate restitution and there is no need to resort to vigilantism, which if a society devolves to that, is much worse than a death penalty execution.

And from a strictly non-spiritual view, being alive and locked up is a lot better than being dead. If being locked up was so terrible, near the same as death, why are there not more suicides in jail?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;708365]Are you trying to justify execution by somehow asserting that *not* executing them would be morally wrong?[/quote]

Yes. He is. The murderer took an [I]innocent[/I] life from the societal whole and society owes a duty to its remaining citizens.

As a society, we place a paramount value on the protection of innocent life. We believe, it is fundamental and necessary to our existence as a society and to those fundamental truths articulated in our founding documents: "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

When someone demonstrates that they are willing to disregard/attack the core beliefs of our society, it is our duty, as a society, to make them pay the paramount penalty in order to [I]demonstrate the value[/I] we as a society place on [I]innocent [/I]life. Permitting a guilty murderer to live devalues the innocent life wrongly taken and, some would say, condones the taking of innocent life.

Again, is compassion and forgiveness an element of "justice", if so, who decides when compassion is appropriate? Which is more important - condoning societal compassion to a murderer or making a clear and consistent statement that, in our society, innocent life is our most treasured possesion?

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=firstdown;708369][B]Yea its so bad some people get out of jail then commit a crime just to go back to jail.[/B] While I would never want to spend time in jail the system in the US is not that bad. Hell if they think something is not fair they can sue the jail/city in court. In my eyes when that cell door shuts behind you your rights are gone. [B]I'd make those bastards work for their room and board.[/B][/quote]

I agree that we should get prisoners to work.

But somehow you missed the "life in prison" phrase in the original post. We're not talking here of turning murderers loose.

Re: Utah killer executed by firing squad
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;708371][B]Not executing the murderer shows that society has no power (or will) to provide restitution and justice to a victim's family.[/B] This is an issue of displaying to the people governed that their justice system will provide appropriate restitution and there is no need to resort to vigilantism, which if a society devolves to that, is much worse than a death penalty execution.

And from a strictly non-spiritual view, being alive and locked up is a lot better than being dead. If being locked up was so terrible, near the same as death, why are there not more suicides in jail?[/quote]

I suggest that you read [U]Death at Midnight[/U], a book by Dr. Donald Cabana. He was the Warden at Parchman state pen and oversaw the execution process. His experiences turned him against the death penalty.

One of Cabana's arguments is that, generally, victim's families do not feel a sense of restitution from executions. As Cabana describes it, when you are already grieving a loss which cannot be replaced, having someone else die is experienced as an empty, unsatisfying reality by most victim's families.

As to your other point, there are many suicides in prison. And prisoners in for life are closely monitored precisely so that they cannot commit suicide. Thus security, not a lack of despair, limits the numbers of suicides.