Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;828647]Yes. Yes I can. Why do you ask?[/quote]


Because the names escape me. Also with those being Superbowl winning teams, I thought there may be a name or two that we could rank in there. To me this thread seems a little to soon in DH's career with us, but if we are playing the game, then is there a corner in there who you all would rank higher than Dhall. That is all. I know we had some good guys back then, but Green is the one who abviously sticks out in my mind. I was still a little kid back then so my memory is failing me.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;828640]Your idea of "good" and my idea of good are completely different.


[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/41838-football-outsiders-worst-rated-cbs-nfl.html[/url]



D. Hall continues to write checks with his mouth that his play doesn't back up.[/quote]You know what I noticed? The guys at the bottom of the YPA against list as well as YAC against are all highly drafted and or highly touted corners.

In other words, the constant overrating of high-profile corners by front offices and fans: it's bigger than a D-Hall problem. He may be the most egregious example in that people already saw the writing on the wall before his big extension in 2009, but plenty of teams are having the same issues with "no. 1 corners" that we are with Hall.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=budw38;828387]Green , Pat Fisher , Springs , Bailey . L. Parrish , Joe Lavender and Garo Yaprimian's favorite .... Mike Bass .[/quote]

thanks, that's a nice list. If only we'd kept Champ, he'd be another Skin in the hall. If Rogers stayed a few more years he would be more appreciated in Skins history too.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

In each of the last two seasons, DeAngelo Hall has dropped only one fewer INT than Carlos Stone Hands. In 2010, only four players dropped more than three INTs, the amount that Hall put on the ground. Rogers was one of those four players. He dropped four.

Courtesy the Football Outsiders charting project/FOA 2011.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Gtripp stop presenting facts to back your argument. Why don't you emotionally support all players on the team while ignoring their play. You are a hater.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Hall still catches more than Rogers. Perhaps that's not saying much, but still.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=freddyg12;828779]thanks, that's a nice list. If only we'd kept Champ, he'd be another Skin in the hall. If Rogers stayed a few more years he would be more appreciated in Skins history too.[/quote]The Rogers mistake was not extending him in the middle of the 2008 season. By the time our new regime came in, Rogers was nearing his 30s, a mark he passed during the lockout. If we had extended him during his ascension, we'd have had him under contract in 2011, 12, and 13, and wouldn't have had to decide between paying him the obscene number he was asking for, and going in a different direction.

I think BA made the right decision to go younger. But its a non issue had Vinny done the intelligent thing a couple years ago. But he had worked himself into such a bad cap situation, that he didn't know if the money to sign players would be there until they decided to dump Marcus Washington, Jason Taylor, and Shawn Springs.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Mattyk;828787]Hall still catches more than Rogers. Perhaps that's not saying much, but still.[/quote]If Rogers is the gold standard, then Hall is a playmaker.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Compared to Rogers he is a playmaker lol. I think that's why some have an inflated view of him.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

I agree.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Mattyk;828790]Compared to Rogers he is a playmaker lol. I think that's why some have an inflated view of him.[/quote]

In the land of the blind, the one-eye man is king.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828788]The Rogers mistake was not extending him in the middle of the 2008 season. By the time our new regime came in, Rogers was nearing his 30s, a mark he passed during the lockout. If we had extended him during his ascension, we'd have had him under contract in 2011, 12, and 13, and wouldn't have had to decide between paying him the obscene number he was asking for, and going in a different direction.

I think BA made the right decision to go younger. But its a non issue [B]had Vinny done the intelligent thing [/B]a couple years ago. But he had worked himself into such a bad cap situation, that he didn't know if the money to sign players would be there until they decided to dump Marcus Washington, Jason Taylor, and Shawn Springs.[/quote]

lol just funny to see those words in the same sentence

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;828650]And Anthony Washington...and Brian Davis...and Martin Mayhew...and AJ Johnson...and Tom Carter...[/quote]

I remember Martin Mayhew and AJ Johnson...Tom Carter and Brian Davis not so much, I was living on the west coast for the latter part of Green's career.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Yes, but you have to be in position to actually make the INT, so a dropped INT counts as a pass deflection right?

D. Hall is the best cornerback on the Redskins, and the best playmaker on the Redskins defense. So he should receive #1 CB money, and he does. You can pull up 100 stats for why he isn't a great cornerback, and I can pull up 100 to why he is a great cornerback. It's all opinionated and will continue to be.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG9n7qCFi4s[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9l_Ol2pKA4[/ame]

I've never seen Rogers do that, and only a handful of CB's in the league can make plays like that. He basically won both of those games for us last year.

Has D. Hall had some questionable performances in the past? Sure, but to argue that last year wasn't his best year of his career, and better then most CB's in the league is foolish. He keeps getting better, and at 27 years old he will continue to flourish in this defense. If he doesn't ahve 8-10 INT's this year I would be surprised.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

I also remember Mayhew and Johnson does ring a bell (all beit a not very load one :) ). Was Mayhew not a good CB? My limitied memory as a child wants me to believe so. I may be thinking of the OLman though.... God I wish Icould go back and watch that time in Skins history as a slightly older young man. lol

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Cant compare anyone to Green and he's certainly no Bailey at the moment, but I like what Hall brings to the Skins. We need dynamic players. Yes he gets burnt but he also takes it the other way many times. I would have to see how he looks when playing with a more dynamic Redskins team as a whole. If he gets the support midfield, I believe we will have more Hall believers after this season.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

I tellya, since when is getting interceptions a bad thing? Crazy talk.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828796]Yes, but you have to be in position to actually make the INT, so a dropped INT counts as a pass deflection right?

D. Hall is the best cornerback on the Redskins, and the best playmaker on the Redskins defense. So he should receive #1 CB money, and he does. You can pull up 100 stats for why he isn't a great cornerback, and I can pull up 100 to why he is a great cornerback. It's all opinionated and will continue to be.

I've never seen Rogers do that, and only a handful of CB's in the league can make plays like that. He basically won both of those games for us last year.

Has D. Hall had some questionable performances in the past? Sure, but to argue that last year wasn't his best year of his career, and better then most CB's in the league is foolish. He keeps getting better, and at 27 years old he will continue to flourish in this defense. If he doesn't ahve 8-10 INT's this year I would be surprised.[/quote]No corner gave up more passing yards and no corner gave up more first downs + touchdowns than Hall last year. He also dropped three INTs. Keep that in mind if you suggest that he had a career year. The career year argument for Hall starts and ends with the fact that he scored a career high 2 TDs, most by the Redskins defense since 2007.

Also keep in mind that career years typically represent a high water point for a player and also suggest a decline in the next season.

If you started this thread and DON'T believe Hall is capable of playing better in 2011 than in 2010, lord help us all.

I am a buyer on your positioning argument, which is why I think Rogers was incredibly underrated and why Hall was never the no. 1 corner here before now.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=44ever;828801]Cant compare anyone to Green and he's certainly no Bailey at the moment, but I like what Hall brings to the Skins. We need dynamic players. Yes he gets burnt but he also [B]takes it the other way many times[/B]. I would have to see how he looks when playing with a more dynamic Redskins team as a whole. If he gets the support midfield, I believe we will have more Hall believers after this season.[/quote]Twice. Many = twice.

Three counting the preseason.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828804]No corner gave up more passing yards and no corner gave up more first downs + touchdowns than Hall last year. He also dropped three INTs. Keep that in mind if you suggest that he had a career year. The career year argument for Hall starts and ends with the fact that he scored a career high 2 TDs, most by the Redskins defense since 2007.

Also keep in mind that career years typically represent a high water point for a player and also suggest a decline in the next season.

If you started this thread and DON'T believe Hall is capable of playing better in 2011 than in 2010, lord help us all.[/quote]

I'm curious, and not trying to argue just for the sake of arguing but how many drops and TDs did Nnamdi and Revis each give up last year?

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=12thMan;828802]I tellya, since when is getting interceptions a bad thing? Crazy talk.[/quote]Who are you responding to?

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=12thMan;828807]I'm curious, and not trying to argue just for the sake of arguing but how many drops and TDs did Nnamdi and Revis each give up last year?[/quote]Nnamdi dropped one. Revis dropped either zero or one.

Revis gave up 320 passing yards. Nnamdi gave up 202 yards. Hall gave up 933. Nnamdi didn't give up a passing TD, according to FO. Revis I don't think gave up any, but I have no hard data on that.

Keep in mind that all of this is based on the idea that teams keep throwing at Hall, and pretty much no one goes after Revis and Nnamdi anymore. Hence why Hall had six INTs and Revis/Nnamdi had none.

Also they did not play any games against Kolb, Cutler, or Stafford, who accounted for all of Halls INTs in 2010.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828808]Who are you responding to?[/quote]

Just the general sentiment on the board.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Revis and Nnamdi were also not part of the 31st ranked defense last year which teams were able to run against at will, and the only pass rush we could ever assemble was with Orakpo. Not to mention his help over the top was Doughty, Horton, and Moore.

I do believe Hall will have a outstanding season. I started this thread because like I said, for every stat you bring out, I cant can continue to develop more also.

Of course your arguement about Hall not developing more positive for his negative is funny. Since when we winning two games basically by yourself not more positive? You are just focused more on the negative of Hall then anything else. I could do the same for almost every player on the Redskins roster.

Edit: This thread is about the general sense of where Hall ranks in the Redskins, not the league. Ofcourse I could name about 4-7 CB's better then D. Hall in the NFL, and Revis, Nhamdi are just two of them. I'm speaking on behalf that Hall is the best CB on the Redskins, and he deserves #1 money

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

By the way, the "accepted" yardage conversion for an interception, if you assume 100% credit to the interceptor, is 45 yards. You could argue that either way, but that's the number that people who work with stats seem to be comfortable with. No, it's not set in stone.

5 x 45 = 225 yards created by DeAngelo Hall through his interceptions in 2010. If you want to add in his two TDs at 20 yards per event, we're up to 265 yards of value "created" by DeAngelo Hall in 2010. Eyeballing that, this is somewhere between half a win and a win added to the 2010 Redskins thanks to positive plays by DeAngelo Hall.

This all assumes that Jay Cutler and Johnnie Knox/Devin Hester were at zero percent fault for those four INTs in Chicago.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828816]Of course your arguement about Hall not developing more positive for his negative is funny. Since when we winning two games basically by yourself not more positive? You are just focused more on the negative of Hall then anything else. [B]I could do the same for almost every player on the Redskins roster.[/B][/quote]Do it. I dare you.

Revis and Nnamdi were not part of the 31st ranked defense at least in small part because they weren't playing across from DeAngelo Hall. Carlos Rogers had no such luck.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828816]Revis and Nnamdi were also not part of the 31st ranked defense last year which teams were able to run against at will, and the only pass rush we could ever assemble was with Orakpo. Not to mention his help over the top was Doughty, Horton, and Moore.

I do believe Hall will have a outstanding season. I started this thread because like I said, for every stat you bring out, I cant can continue to develop more also.[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. For every stat someone points to that says Hall is a bum, there's another one that would suggest otherwise. It is what it is.

I'm glad we got him and I think it's safe to say whenever D.Hall takes one back to the house, even the most skeptical among us will be thrilled with the results.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828820]Do it. I dare you.

Revis and Nnamdi were not part of the 31st ranked defense at least in small part because they weren't playing across from DeAngelo Hall. Carlos Rogers had no such luck.[/quote]

So it seems like you're laying our low defensive ranking squarely at the feet of Deangelo Hall. If that's the argument you're mounting, I'd be interested in hearing how you arrive at that conclusion.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=12thMan;828821]My thoughts exactly. [B]For every stat someone points to that says Hall is a bum, there's another one that would suggest otherwise.[/B] It is what it is.[/quote]This is 100% not true, which is exactly why you've seen a lack of partisan stats brought forward by the people who are spending most of their afternoon defending Hall's play. Clearly, it is not for a lack of effort on their part. It's just a lack of information to support their position.

It is what it is.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828818]By the way, the "accepted" yardage conversion for an interception, if you assume 100% credit to the interceptor, is 45 yards. You could argue that either way, but that's the number that people who work with stats seem to be comfortable with. No, it's not set in stone.

5 x 45 = 225 yards created by DeAngelo Hall through his interceptions in 2010. If you want to add in his two TDs at 20 yards per event, we're up to 265 yards of value "created" by DeAngelo Hall in 2010. Eyeballing that, this is somewhere between half a win and a win added to the 2010 Redskins thanks to positive plays by DeAngelo Hall.

This all assumes that Jay Cutler and Johnnie Knox/Devin Hester were at zero percent fault for those four INTs in Chicago.[/quote]

How many times are WR's or QB's not at fault during a INT? See? You're arguement is totally biased on the fact that all your negative approach toward D. Hall is based on your OWN belief that he's not a good CB for the Redskins.

In that total yardage allowed by Hall.. How many times did Moore, or Doughty/Horton blow coverage and not help over the top? How many times did the QB have more then 3 seconds to throw, or were we in Zone coverage? Blitz?

It's all biased statistical information and not even halfway accurate to what D. Hall actually does on the field. He produces plays..

2 defensive TD's, Pro Bowl, Pro Bowl MVP, 16 pass deflection, 6 INT's, and 95 tackles. All on the 31st ranked defense in the NFL

Sorry but there is not much more to argue about that.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=12thMan;828822]So it seems like you're laying our low defensive ranking squarely at the feet of Deangelo Hall. If that's the argument you're mounting, I'd be interested in hearing how you arrive at that conclusion.[/quote]The 31st total ranking is entirely based on total yards against. DeAngelo Hall gives up more yards against than any other corner. The correlation between the Redskins hemmorhaging yards and Hall's performance is a perfect one.

No one thinks Hall is the only problem, that's just you twisting the argument I'm making. But no one player is responsible for lowing his teams defensive ranking than DeAngelo Hall, at least according to game charting numbers. Lets stick only to the facts and leave emotions out of it.

Remember, the NFL yards rankings dont include INTs or touchdowns, so if you think those are valuable things then Hall simply doesn't play on the second worst defense in the league. His teammates have their issues, but they're much better than bucket is giving them credit for.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828824]How many times are WR's or QB's not at fault during a INT? See? You're arguement is totally biased on the fact that all your negative approach toward D. Hall is based on your OWN belief that he's not a good CB for the Redskins.

In that total yardage allowed by Hall.. How many times did Moore, or Doughty/Horton blow coverage and not help over the top? How many times did the QB have more then 3 seconds to throw, or were we in Zone coverage? Blitz?

It's all biased statistical information and not even halfway accurate to what D. Hall actually does on the field. He produces plays..

2 defensive TD's, Pro Bowl, Pro Bowl MVP, 16 pass deflection, 6 INT's, and 95 tackles. All on the 31st ranked defense in the NFL

Sorry but there is not much more to argue about that.[/quote]LOL at pro bowl MVP. Quit with the biased crap. Stick to facts.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828820]Do it. I dare you.

Revis and Nnamdi were not part of the 31st ranked defense at least in small part because they weren't playing across from DeAngelo Hall. Carlos Rogers had no such luck.[/quote]

Alexander
Rocky
Moore
Doughty
Carter
Albert

I can make 100 reasons why more of the issue was in this area to our 31st ranked defense more then D. Hall.

You're being totally biased lol, I gtg to work.. Ill lawl at your "facts' later

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828826]LOL at pro bowl MVP. Quit with the biased crap. Stick to facts.[/quote]

But see you laugh at the facts and stats Bucket produced, while at the same time holding up your own "facts" and stats to prove otherwise.

Is the real argument you're right and we're wrong?

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828827]Alexander
Rocky
Moore
Doughty
Carter
Albert

I can make 100 reasons why more of the issue was in this area to our 31st ranked defense more then D. Hall.

You're being totally biased lol, I gtg to work.. Ill lawl at your "facts' later[/quote]Kyle Wilson
Jason Taylor
Eric Smith
Dwight Lowery
Vernon Gholston

Jets are a top five ranked defense by yards.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

DHall is the new Jason Campbell. JC was so middle-of-the-road that lovers found plenty to love, haters found plenty to hate, and therefore endless arguments resulted. For different reasons, of course, DHall polarizes the fan base in just the same way.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=12thMan;828828]But see you laugh at the facts and stats Bucket produced, while at the same time holding up your own "facts" and stats to prove otherwise.

Is the real argument you're right and we're wrong?[/quote]What in the heck did bucket produce?? How is that any way comparable to what I did. It's disrespectful to me that you'd consider that similar. He's talking about individual honors bestowed upon a player while I'm talking about on-field performance. Things that happen during games.

Which matters more? This is not a trick question.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Lotus;828830]DHall is the new Jason Campbell. JC was so middle-of-the-road that lovers found plenty to love, haters found plenty to hate, and therefore endless arguments resulted. For different reasons, of course, DHall polarizes the fan base in just the same way.[/quote]

In some sense I even take exception to that comparison for many reasons. But namely I can't remember one game where Jason Campbell put the team on his back and single-handedly drove the team to victory or he was the deciding factor in a victorious outcome. I think it's safe to say, D.Hall has produced a few of those games in his short time as a Redskin.

But I'm done with this thread and this argument. I'm starting to sound like D.Hall is the second coming of Christ and that's not the position I'm taking at all.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828820]Do it. I dare you.

Revis and Nnamdi were not part of the 31st ranked defense at least in small part because they weren't playing across from DeAngelo Hall. Carlos Rogers had no such luck.[/quote]

CB play was the least responsible area for that entire unit's 31st ranking. Saftey, LB and a league worst DL far more responsible for that ranking. Maybe if Fat Alberta woulda acted like a man maybe the DL woulda been better.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=12thMan;828833]But I'm done with this thread and this argument. I'm starting to sound like D.Hall is the second coming of Christ and that's not the position I'm taking at all.[/quote]12th, I have great respect for you for doing this. Even though we disagree, you've proven to be the "bigger" man.

I'll be back in this thread before long, ttyl.