Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Parcells gets in and deservedly so. Just stop with the nonsense.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Mattyk;874395][B]Parcells gets in and deservedly so[/B]. Just stop with the nonsense.[/quote]
^^^^^^^^

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Mattyk;874395]Parcells gets in and deservedly so. Just stop with the nonsense.[/quote]

I agree Parcells will get in, but don't think it is nonsense. I actually got turned onto this fact from several former players who suggested I look it up.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

It's nonsense.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Mattyk;874399]It's nonsense.[/quote]

No disrespect intended, but I have stated some facts to back up my argument. While it is not a popular position, it is based in fact. Bill B was the DC of ever successful Parcells team. When Bill B was not on staff, Parcells teams were average to slightly above average.

Saying my position is nonsense without backing it up with facts is in fact "nonsense".

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

It reminds me of the take that Walsh only won because of Montana and Rice.

You can make these types of arguments all day with just about anyone. A little too nitpicky for me personally.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;842097]Bobby Beathard hands down!!

7 SB appearances with 4 different teams, responsible for 4 SB wins (Chiefs, Dolphins, Redskins 2x).[/quote]

I agree. BB should get some serious consideration. That 81 draft might be one of the best of all time.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Mattyk;874395]Parcells gets in and deservedly so. Just stop with the nonsense.[/quote]

Not so sure about that. To me he's on the fence.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;863500]To illustrate your point, was anyone at the 49ers game where Chris Hanburger got his ring at half time and started off by thanking Snyder for the courtesy he had shown Chris?[/quote]

DS has done a lot of GREAT things. A lot of nice charity stuff, he did a lot for #21's family by giving 500k to Sean's daughter, he's been great to some of the old Redskins, given money to Children's Hospital and so on. But he hasn't won and has also shit on the fans. Don't want to turn this into a Snyder bitch fest, but there's no comparison between Cooke and Snyder. Cooke will ALWAYS be loved by the fans. Not only cause he won but because of his charisma and personality.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Mattyk;874403]It reminds me of the take that Walsh only won because of Montana and Rice.

You can make these types of arguments all day with just about anyone. A little too nitpicky for me personally.[/quote]

Well, Rice wasn't with Walsh for the first SB (I believe without looking up). Also, Walsh wasn't with 2 teams with Montana. Remember, Bill B was the DC of the Pats for 1 year, and that was THE year for them. Also, as soon as Bill B left the Giants for the Browns, the Giants did not go back to the big one.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=skinsfan69;874408]DS has done a lot of GREAT things. A lot of nice charity stuff, he did a lot for #21's family by giving 500k to Sean's daughter, he's been great to some of the old Redskins, given money to Children's Hospital and so on. But he hasn't won and has also shit on the fans. Don't want to turn this into a Snyder bitch fest, but there's no comparison between Cooke and Snyder. Cooke will ALWAYS be loved by the fans. Not only cause he won but because of his charisma and personality.[/quote]

Winning cures all.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874411]Winning cures all.[/quote]

And he'll get lots of love from the fans when they start winning in the not so distant future. NEXT YEAR BABY!!! I feel it.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874398]I agree Parcells will get in, but don't think it is nonsense. I actually got turned onto this fact from several former players who suggested I look it up.[/quote]

It's a stat everyone knows. Just like Gretzky never won without Messier and Jordan never won without Pippen, though Messier did win without Gretzky.

I'm guessing you think Belichick belongs right? Well, how about I counter that with "yeah well he never won as Super Bowl as a head coach without Rome Crennel"

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874410]Well, Rice wasn't with Walsh for the first SB (I believe without looking up). Also, Walsh wasn't with 2 teams with Montana. Remember, Bill B was the DC of the Pats for 1 year, and that was THE year for them. Also, as soon as Bill B left the Giants for the Browns, the Giants did not go back to the big one.[/quote]

My point is you can pick and choose all sorts of things to suit an argument. Only thing that really matters is the body of work. Once you get into the realm of nitpicking you end up snubbing the likes of Art Monk from the Hall for years on end.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=skinsfan69;874405]Not so sure about that. To me he's on the fence.[/quote]

He was one of the top coaches of the modern era. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't get in.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=SmootSmack;874427]It's a stat everyone knows. Just like Gretzky never won without Messier and Jordan never won without Pippen, though Messier did win without Gretzky.

I'm guessing you think Belichick belongs right? Well, how about I counter that with "yeah well he never won as Super Bowl as a head coach without Rome Crennel"[/quote]

I see where you are going, but the Pats are still a dominant team without RC. He has been gone long enough where you lose some steam in the argument. Yes, I think Bill B is someone who belongs in the HOF.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Bill Parcells had both Joe Gibbs (painful to say) and Bill Walsh's numbers, had success with the Jets, Patriots and Cowboys. If you had a choice between Shanahan and Parcells for the HOF, who would you pick? A no brainer Parcells. Now if Shanahan can win again, he's the guy on the fence unless he wins again.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;874436]Bill Parcells had both Joe Gibbs (painful to say) and Bill Walsh's numbers, had success with the Jets, Patriots and Cowboys. If you had a choice between Shanahan and Parcells for the HOF, who would you pick? A no brainer Parcells. Now if Shanahan can win again, he's the guy on the fence unless he wins again.[/quote]

For the Jets and Patriots he had Bill B with him. Bill B did not go with him to Dallas and Miami and there was no real success.

The Cowboys NEVER won a playoff game with Parcells at the helm. That is not what I consider "success".

btw, I make this argument fully realizing Parcells will go in. It may or may not be this year, but they will put him in. I just feel there are better qualified people for Canton.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874440]For the Jets and Patriots he had Bill B with him. Bill B did not go with him to Dallas and Miami and there was no real success.

The Cowboys NEVER won a playoff game with Parcells at the helm. That is not what I consider "success".

btw, I make this argument fully realizing Parcells will go in. It may or may not be this year, but they will put him in. I just feel there are better qualified people for Canton.[/quote]

He built a good team in Dallas, Romo screwed up a fumble and Wade Phillips was no coach and screwed that team up. Do you consider Shanahan a HOF'er?

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

It's tough to win in this league, really tough. And with all the variables involved, it's no big surprise that coaches never seem to find the same level of success when they move on to different teams. But that shouldn't diminish what they did manage to accomplish in the first place.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874282]Yes, his 2 Super Bowls in NY and 3rd in NE, who was by his side as DC? Belicheck. When Belicheck wasn't there - what did Parcells do? Bill B was HC in Cleveland from 91-95. How many Super Bowls did Parcells go to then?

He made the playoffs in Dallas but got no where. Miami wasn't any better. Parcells only real success happened not because of Parcells.[/quote]

:laughing-:laughing-:laughing-

Is this guy for real?

So who assembled the talent on those teams that went to the Super Bowl? Belicheck? In fact, you do realize that a core of the players that Belicheck won his first Super Bowl with were drafted by Parcells. Parcells put the talent on the Cowboys squad to contend year in and year out, and we were fortunate that Jerry chose that idiot Wade to coach it. Had it been a decent coach, the Boys would have won 2 more Super Bowls by now. Also, turned Miami to last place loser to division champs.

If you want to swing on Belicheck's sack that much, what is your excuse for the Cleveland Browns showing?


Parcells is probably one of the most talented guys ever in NFL history when it comes to talent and coaching. In fact, if I had to let one guy build my team from ground up and could chose one person the history of the NFL, it would in fact be Parcells. Hands down.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=NC_Skins;874446]:laughing-:laughing-:laughing-

Is this guy for real?

So who assembled the talent on those teams that went to the Super Bowl? Belicheck? In fact, you do realize that a core of the players that Belicheck won his first Super Bowl with were drafted by Parcells. Parcells put the talent on the Cowboys squad to contend year in and year out, and we were fortunate that Jerry chose that idiot Wade to coach it. Had it been a decent coach, the Boys would have won 2 more Super Bowls by now. Also, turned Miami to last place loser to division champs.

If you want to swing on Belicheck's sack that much, what is your excuse for the Cleveland Browns showing?


Parcells is probably one of the most talented guys ever in NFL history when it comes to talent and coaching. In fact, if I had to let one guy build my team from ground up and could chose one person the history of the NFL, it would in fact be Parcells. Hands down.[/quote]

I certainly am not against debate, especially since I have taken an unpopular position and have been defending it.

If you want to engage me in debate, then read what I have already posted before you tell me I am wrong. I say this because you are asking me questions I have already addressed.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874282]Yes, his 2 Super Bowls in NY and 3rd in NE, who was by his side as DC? Belicheck. When Belicheck wasn't there - what did Parcells do? Bill B was HC in Cleveland from 91-95. How many Super Bowls did Parcells go to then?

He made the playoffs in Dallas but got no where. Miami wasn't any better. Parcells only real success happened not because of Parcells.[/quote]

Tom Brady is that you??? ya better go get to watching some film before the Orange Crush and Tebow come break the 7th Seal on your ass.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=CrustyRedskin;874489]Tom Brady is that you??? ya better go get to watching some film before the Orange Crush and Tebow come break the 7th Seal on your ass.[/quote]
As a lifetime Steeler fan, that is just flat out mean.:spank:

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874486]I certainly am not against debate, especially since I have taken an unpopular position and have been defending it.

If you want to engage me in debate, then read what I have already posted before you tell me I am wrong. I say this because you are asking me questions I have already addressed.[/quote]

I think you are entitled to your opinion, but it sounds like you are over reaching with your arguments against Parcells. I really don't care much about Parcells, but it is a bit ridiculous to argue that his success came ONLY because of Bill Belichick. One of the hallmarks of good head coaches is their ability to mentor and develop their assistant coaches and coordinators. In the end, I would have imagine that Parcells had to hire and supervise Belichick, and the other coaches that serve under him. I mean if we go with your argument, should we say that Joe Gibbs lack of success in his second round of being a head coaches shows that he was nothing without his previous asst. coaches and coordinators? I think not.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

30th anniversary of "The Catch" today. I brought that up to a few Cowboy lovers this morning. The didnt think it was quite as memorable as i did. D.D Lewis one of the LBer's chasing Montana on the play came to my place of employment a few years ago gave a motivational speech. Afterwards many emoployees were lined up getting pictures and his autograph. I took off in the other direction and someone said hey arnt you gona get his autograph and a picture, i said naw I'm good!! HTTR my faith runs deep!!

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Gary Reason should get in for this hit.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehSmLq9J4yc&feature=related]Gary Reasons THE HIT - YouTube[/url]

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=CrustyRedskin;874660]Gary Reason should get in for this hit.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehSmLq9J4yc&feature=related"]Gary Reasons THE HIT - YouTube[/URL][/quote]


yeah that is prety good.he had a better one on Earl Campell where he bent his own facemask....Harry Carson said it was the hardest hit he has ever seen.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[url=http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2012/1/11/2012-finalists-comparative-stats-coaches-w-l-t/]Enshrinement » 2012 Finalists comparative stats: Coaches - W-L-T[/url]
I just saw this on the HOF website and it illustrates my point about when Parcells had success.

His Giants Super Bowls were only when Bill B was his DC

He was 50% career with the Patriots and the only successful year was when Bill B left the Browns and was his DC.

He won 60% when Bill B was his DC with the Jets and barely over 50% when he was at the Cowboys.

The later years are really telling.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Geeeeeze!! Parcdells and Belichick will both be in there sooner or later!!! Give it a break!!

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=CrustyRedskin;874896]Geeeeeze!! Parcdells and Belichick will both be in there sooner or later!!! Give it a break!![/quote]

All of this

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874892][url=http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2012/1/11/2012-finalists-comparative-stats-coaches-w-l-t/]Enshrinement » 2012 Finalists comparative stats: Coaches - W-L-T[/url]
I just saw this on the HOF website and it illustrates my point about when Parcells had success.

His Giants Super Bowls were only when Bill B was his DC

He was 50% career with the Patriots and the only successful year was when Bill B left the Browns and was his DC.

He won 60% when Bill B was his DC with the Jets and barely over 50% when he was at the Cowboys.

The later years are really telling.[/quote]

You killing me with this crap man. He took the Jets from a basement dweller and turned them into a competitive team. He also set up the Cowboys roster that turned into a highly competitive team.

To link Parcells success to Bellicheat is hilarious to say. Again, who picked those players during the Parcells/Bellicheat era? Bellicheat? Not hardly.

You sound like some of these Skins fans that hate Shanny. A clear agenda against the man for no reason.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Sorry, absolutely no agenda at all. I am simply making a point. If you had to pick a coach for your team, who would you pick? Bill P or Bill B?

Me, I would pick Bill B everyday of the week.


Yes, I also agree with those who say they will both get in. Just not sure it should actually be that way.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874911]Sorry, absolutely no agenda at all. I am simply making a point. If you had to pick a coach for your team, who would you pick? Bill P or Bill B?

Me, I would pick Bill B everyday of the week.


Yes, I also agree with those who say they will both get in. Just not sure it should actually be that way.[/quote]

Both will be in the Hall of Fame. I don't know if this affects the HOF selection process, but so far Parcell's coaching tree has been more successful than Belichick's. Not that this is a big deal, but it shows one of many ways a coach can influence the league.

Just a random though with BB, I wonder what would have happened if Bledsoe doesn't get hurt? I thought he was a good QB, but not Tom Brady good.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874911]Sorry, absolutely no agenda at all. I am simply making a point. If you had to pick a coach for your team, who would you pick? Bill P or Bill B?

Me, I would pick Bill B everyday of the week.


Yes, I also agree with those who say they will both get in. Just not sure it should actually be that way.[/quote]


Until Bill Belicheat goes to another squad and turn them into a power house like Parcells has done time and time, get back with me. Belicheck ONLY succeeded because he was set up nicely by Parcells to begin with(super bowl caliber team from 2 years previously). Why else did he take the NE job over the Jets job? He knew the talent was much better on the Patriots. Otherwise, my guess is his tenure in New England would have ended up much like it did in Cleveland.



As of 2011, former Parcells assistants who are currently head coaches in either the NFL or the college ranks include:

[B] * Bill Belichick, New England Patriots
* Tom Coughlin, New York Giants
* Sean Payton, New Orleans Saints[/B]
* Mike MacIntyre, San Jose State
* Charlie Weis, University of Kansas
* Romeo Crennel, Kansas City Chiefs


Three out of those 6 current coaches have a Super Bowl ring (as head coach) as well. The guy knows football, knows how to coach, and knows how to lead.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=NC_Skins;874914]Until Bill Belicheat goes to another squad and turn them into a power house like Parcells has done time and time, get back with me. Belicheck ONLY succeeded because he was set up nicely by Parcells to begin with(super bowl caliber team from 2 years previously). Why else did he take the NE job over the Jets job? He knew the talent was much better on the Patriots. Otherwise, my guess is his tenure in New England would have ended up much like it did in Cleveland.


[/quote]
Cut out the coaching tree part only because there is no disagreement that the success levels (although give it time and see).

Your argument would hold up about Parcells building the Patriots except Parcells also took what he wanted when he moved to the Jets (Martin). It also doesn't hold up because I doubt anyone could say the Patriots still have Parcells stamp on it.

While I agree that Brady is obviously better than Bledsoe, didn't the Patriots also have success when Brady went down and Cassel filled in? That to me is more like the argument someone pointed out earlier about Walsh having Montana.

Believe it or not, I am not an idiot. I realize Parcells will be in Canton at some point. I am just pointing out some arguments that have been going around for years. Just open your mind a bit and think about it.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874919]Cut out the coaching tree part only because there is no disagreement that the success levels (although give it time and see).

Your argument would hold up about Parcells building the Patriots except Parcells also took what he wanted when he moved to the Jets (Martin). It also doesn't hold up because I doubt anyone could say the Patriots still have Parcells stamp on it.

While I agree that Brady is obviously better than Bledsoe, didn't the Patriots also have success when Brady went down and Cassel filled in? That to me is more like the argument someone pointed out earlier about Walsh having Montana.

Believe it or not, I am not an idiot. I realize Parcells will be in Canton at some point. I am just pointing out some arguments that have been going around for years. Just open your mind a bit and think about it.[/quote]

It is hard to dismiss the coaching tree part, if you are making an argument for right now. Will Belichick end up having a coaching career better than Parcells when he retires? Absolutely. But if you compare Parcells' career to what BB has done so far, then I would give the nod to Parcells.

It would be interesting to see how would Belichick fare in rebuilding another team. While his Parcells' tenures with the Jets and the Cowboys were not great, he was fairly successful with those two organizations.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

When Brady retires I wonder if BB will too.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Mattyk;874939]When Brady retires I wonder if BB will too.[/quote]
He has been there since 2000, so it would make sense.

I just looked up Bill B and his tenure in Cleveland (90-95). 1994 he got the team turned around with an 11-4 record and went to the playoffs. 1995 the team was 4-5 when on November 6 Modell announced the move to Baltimore and the team just fell apart finishing 5-11.

I am not so sure I would call Bill B a failure in Cleveland.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874911]Sorry, absolutely no agenda at all. I am simply making a point. If you had to pick a coach for your team, who would you pick? Bill P or Bill B?

Me, I would pick Bill B everyday of the week.


Yes, I also agree with those who say they will both get in. Just not sure it should actually be that way.[/quote]

Just stop...
with your logic Belichick should'nt get in unless Brady goes becuase when he was in Cleveland he stunk,he only won in New England.