Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Mechanix544;852499]I guess you are forgetting that he had 77 receptions for almost 900 yards last year, and that was the year he really picked up on his blocking.

All that while giving Fred Davis some playing time, cause you all know we didnt run any two TE sets last year, lol.

In short, he is a valuable commodity, definitely worth a 3rd rounder to some team, possibly a 3rd and 4th. I still think we should keep him though.[/quote]

Chris Cooley is not that valuable, not with the TE market being flooded with an influx of athletic TEs that can "do everything". Over 20 teams have an athletic TE worth their salt.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Ruhskins;852500]Green Bay has six playmakers: Rodgers, Jennings, Finley, Matthews, Raji and Woodson. Personally, I don't think we have a single playmaker, we only have a few solid players (Rak, Landry, and Fletch), but none of them on offense. This team lacks talent period.[/quote]

Fletcher is more than solid. He's the MVP or co-MVP of the defense and would be for many other teams. Rak and Landry are debatable for now, but there frequent flashes from them.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Hog1;852486]The Skins won a few SB's with arguably NO superstars.......[/quote]

Different, era. Different coachin style.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Ruhskins;852500]Green Bay has six playmakers: Rodgers, Jennings, Finley, Matthews, Raji and Woodson. Personally, I don't think we have a single playmaker, we only have a few solid players (Rak, Landry, and Fletch), but none of them on offense. This team lacks talent period.[/quote]

Looking at those 6:
Rodgers - 1st round (24th overall) 2005 (not going there carlos/campbell)
Jennings - 2nd round (52nd overall) 2006 (we got McIntosh in the 2nd)
Finley - 3rd round (91st overall) 2008 (we got Davis in the 2nd, and he sat behind Cooley under Zorn)
Matthews - 1st round(26th overall) 2009 (we got Orakpo at 13)
Raji -1st round (9th overall) 2009
Woodson -8yr starter picked up in 2006

my point is, these playmakers weren't playmakers year one, the team was built, and it took time to get the system in place, and the qb groomed enough that the team is where it is today. We all know that this team has been to the bottom and back, but in building we have to give the young players a chance before we just look at them and dismiss them. It's hard, especially at WR, because we've seen so many flame out here, but I want to believe that out of our current young group 1, 2 or 3 will develop into a playmaker status. I have high hopes for Austin, Paul, and medium hopes for AA and Hankerson. It would be nice to see some faith made into reality.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;852446]Probably because we haven't focused on having a fundamentally sound team for the last decade. Playmakers are great, and I agree that we need to find one, two, or even 3, BUT, when our team fails at the simple things of pass protection, run blocking, or defensive pressure, the playmakers we have brought in (Moss, Portis, etc) generally fail. In most cases you have to have a sound team before you can have an explosive team. I believe we are doing better at building a sound team, admittedly- the last two weeks seem to argue against that.[/quote]

One of the most important facets of a "fundamentally sound team" are players that can score points. I would argue that all of the things you mentioned, pass pro, run blocking, and defensive pressure, have improved. Granted, the running game is sometimes there, and sometimes it isn't. But when I talk about "playmakers" I'm referring specifically to wideouts who can get separation, run precise routes, and have the speed and elusiveness to find the endzone.

As I said, the only player we have that remotely fits this description has been Santana Moss and even he hasn't been there when we've needed a score most. Fred Davis comes after that, but now all opposing defenses have to do is focus in on him and our offense is effectively grounded.

What bugs me is this idea that you can't rely on young receivers to fill these needs because the learning curve takes so long to go from college to the pros. I'm not sure I buy that. Nonetheless, it's a problem and year after year this franchise doesn't have an answer for it.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Hog1;852486]The Skins won a few SB's with arguably NO superstars.......[/quote]

Disagree totally. The Hogs are probably the most famous offensive line in league history. In their day, 'The Posse' was among the best trio of receivers in the league. Mann and Manley, and Darrell Green and Martin Mayhew, formed defensive tandems that were consistently at or near the top season after season.

Now, were they *Superstars* -- depends on how you define that. But they absolutely were playmakers.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Mechanix544;852499][B]I guess you are forgetting that he had 77 receptions for almost 900 yards last year, and that was the year he really picked up on his blocking. [/B]All that while giving Fred Davis some playing time, cause you all know we didnt run any two TE sets last year, lol.

In short, he is a valuable commodity, definitely worth a 3rd rounder to some team, possibly a 3rd and 4th. I still think we should keep him though.[/quote]

I grew negative on Cooley before most people did. In the beginning he was a difference maker -- a decent touchdown threat. But after a while, defenses started to figure him out and his scoring ability fell off the map at a time when we needed it most.

Hell of a possession receiver, no doubt, but not a scoring threat. I'd be stunned if we get a 3rd rounder for him.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;852480]Green Bay is 7-0 and I would argue that they have only 3 "stud playmakers" on the most prolific offense this year: Jennings, Rogers, and Finchley (possibly J. Nelson). On defense, their NT (whose name I forget) and Clay Mathews are the only "stud playmakers" I can think of. You'll note they do NOT have a "playmaker" at RB.

They have several good and very good players but none other than those named that would be instant starters on any team in the league (which is what a "stud playmaker" means to me).

[B]My point being, solid players, not playmakers, are what make the team. [/B]Name me a team today that has 7 playmakers on both sides of the ball. Ain't happening. Get and lock in the good players and the playmakers will come.[/quote]

You think we're lacking solid players?

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

Playmakers are usually the [I]most[/I] technically sound players of their position. Ed Reed probably studies a ton of film to diagnose the play and then make his interceptions. Darelle Revis isn't a shutdown corner without his positioning and other coverage skills. Peyton Manning can diagnose defenses better than most other QBs.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Beemnseven;852521]One of the most important facets of a "fundamentally sound team" are players that can score points. I would argue that all of the things you mentioned, pass pro, run blocking, and defensive pressure, have improved. Granted, the running game is sometimes there, and sometimes it isn't. But when I talk about "playmakers" I'm referring specifically to wideouts who can get separation, run precise routes, and have the speed and elusiveness to find the endzone.

As I said, the only player we have that remotely fits this description has been Santana Moss and even he hasn't been there when we've needed a score most. Fred Davis comes after that,[B] but now all opposing defenses have to do is focus in on him[/B] and our offense is effectively grounded.

What bugs me is this idea that you can't rely on young receivers to fill these needs because the learning curve takes so long to go from college to the pros. I'm not sure I buy that. Nonetheless, it's a problem and year after year this franchise doesn't have an answer for it.[/quote]

The bolded point is THE point. Playmakers are great but only if an offense, or defense, can - in all other facets- at least keep an opposing teams on an even keel. Much like we hoped RK would allow Orakpo more freedom to blitz. Playmakers still, generally, need a solid team in order for their abilities to shine through, otherwise opponents zero in, and can prevent them from making plays.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;852549]Playmakers are usually the [I]most[/I] technically sound players of their position. Ed Reed probably studies a ton of film to diagnose the play and then make his interceptions. Darelle Revis isn't a shutdown corner without his positioning and other coverage skills. Peyton Manning can diagnose defenses better than most other QBs.[/quote]

What about T.O. is his heyday? It is hard to argue that he wasn't a playmaker. It is also hard to argue that he was "technically sound." And he is just one example.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Lotus;852556]What about T.O. is his heyday? It is hard to argue that he wasn't a playmaker. It is also hard to argue that he was "technically sound." And he is just one example.[/quote]

I said "usually", hence I can escape anyone bringing up exceptions to the rule like T.O. ;)

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;852551]The bolded point is THE point. Playmakers are great but only if an offense, or defense, can - in all other facets- at least keep an opposing teams on an even keel. Much like we hoped RK would allow Orakpo more freedom to blitz. [B]Playmakers still, generally, need a solid team in order for their abilities to shine through,[/B] otherwise opponents zero in, and can prevent them from making plays.[/quote]

See, we always hear that our team has a lot of solid, but not spectacular players. At this point, I'd say our offensive line is [I]getting to be [/I] solid, but not star-studded by any means.

I would also submit that we have *solid* running backs. Nothing particularly special to be sure. QBs and wide receivers, -- that's where we have problems.

Defensively, Landry, Hall, Otogwe, Carriker, Bowen, Kerrigan, Rak, are all "solid" players -- not necessarily perennial Pro Bowlers, and not guys that will show up on a box of Wheaties. But guys who are competent, know their positions, and can basically be counted on to perform consistently.

My point is, we don't have a set of players that take everybody else to the next level. The thing that separates the winners from the losers in this league are the teams that are able to collect the most playmakers. We don't have those guys and it shows.

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;852578]See, we always hear that our team has a lot of solid, but not spectacular players. At this point, I'd say our offensive line is [I]getting to be [/I] solid, but not star-studded by any means.

I would also submit that we have *solid* running backs. Nothing particularly special to be sure. QBs and wide receivers, -- that's where we have problems.

Defensively, Landry, Hall, Otogwe, Carriker, Bowen, Kerrigan, Rak, are all "solid" players -- not necessarily perennial Pro Bowlers, and not guys that will show up on a box of Wheaties. But guys who are competent, know their positions, and can basically be counted on to perform consistently.

My point is, we don't have a set of players that take everybody else to the next level. The thing that separates the winners from the losers in this league are the teams that are able to collect the most playmakers. We don't have those guys and it shows.[/QUOTE]

We are just getting to a point of solid players. That had to be the first focus for MS/BA. Let's give them another draft (maybe two) and real FA period and see what we can get.. seems to me like MS and KS both seemed to know how to find playmakers in their last stints.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;852587]We are just getting to a point of solid players. That had to be the first focus for MS/BA. Let's give them another draft (maybe two) and real FA period and see what we can get.. seems to me like MS and KS both seemed to know how to find playmakers in their last stints.[/quote]

Players comes haphazardly to a team. Lesser, "solid" players should not be taken in favor of players with potential to become great simply because the team sucks. Otherwise, the Lions were morons for drafting Ndamukong Suh at #2 because they didn't have enough solid players on their team.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=CrustyRedskin;852514]Different, era. Different coachin style.[/quote]
Really? How has quality player aquisition, chemistry changed? Not to mention quality coaching?

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Hog1;852593]Really? How has quality player aquisition, chemistry changed? Not to mention quality coaching?[/quote]

Playmaker is a term orginally from soccer used to describe players who score a lot or help their team score a lot. Since football has different players playing defense and offense, the term needs to be adapted just a little bit to fit on both sides of the ball. The Hogs were playmakers. When a marginal running back puts up a 200+ yard performance in the Super Bowl, that means the OL were playmakers that game. Drafting to find playmakers has been around since the beginning of football. Only the Redskins eschewed the draft and preferred to try and find playmakers [I]primarily[/I] through free agency.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

The point is....AND you accentuated it nicely. The Skins on those teams had guys that could play, but even at the time were not considered Superstars of the game, as in not necessary to win SB's??
YES, the Hogs were well known as a unit but very few people (and many fans) could have named any player on that line....or now.
BTW...please never refer to Soccer again for any reason on a Redskin forum...thanx for that.

[QUOTE=SirClintonPortis;852591]Players comes haphazardly to a team. Lesser, "solid" players should not be taken in favor of players with potential to become great simply because the team sucks. Otherwise, the Lions were morons for drafting Ndamukong Suh at #2 because they didn't have enough solid players on their team.[/QUOTE]

At the same time you don't neglect core needs for a shot in the dark player. Show me where in the past two drafts we specifically passed up an available "playmaker" for a substantially lesser player. Any discussion of drafts before then simply seems fruitless as everyone here agrees those drafts were sad in judgement at this point . Also show me a playmaker FA we should have gotten, without breaking the bank a la AH. Even your Suh example is skewed because the lions took the best player in the draft for an area that they needed considerable upgrading at. Basically that is a win/win for their team, in other words they did not neglect a core need for a playmaker. My counter to that would be both atlanta, getting JJ but neglecting a woeful defense, and the cowboys getting Dez Bryant, but neglecting their line in that draft.

Look a team needs playmakers, we definitely need some but you can't neglect your core, hopefully in the next two seasons we see talent across the board rise and have a few players truly step up to that next level. Like you said players don't come haphazardly, and they also, generally, don't come en masse, that's why its re building because its a step by step process and it takes time, not one and a half offseasons.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;852603]At the same time you don't neglect core needs for a shot in the dark player. Show me where in the past two drafts we specifically passed up an available "playmaker" for a substantially lesser player. Any discussion of drafts before then simply seems fruitless as everyone here agrees those drafts were sad in judgement at this point . Also show me a playmaker FA we should have gotten, without breaking the bank a la AH. Even your Suh example is skewed because the lions took the best player in the draft for an area that they needed considerable upgrading at. Basically that is a win/win for their team, in other words they did not neglect a core need for a playmaker. My counter to that would be both atlanta, getting JJ but neglecting a woeful defense, and the cowboys getting Dez Bryant, but neglecting their line in that draft.

Look a team needs playmakers, we definitely need some but you can't neglect your core, hopefully in the next two seasons we see talent across the board rise and have a few players truly step up to that next level. Like you said players don't come haphazardly, and they also, generally, don't come en masse, that's why its re building because its a step by step process and it takes time, not one and a half offseasons.[/quote]We have taken shots at playmakers already. I define playmakers as guys who make a huge impact in helping scoring on O or preventing scores on D. Reputation, etc has no relevance. It's what they do that matters.

Core players are playmakers. Brian Orakpo, Ryan Kerrigan, and Trent Williams are not here to just be solid. They're here to be playing up to their potential, which is on par with some Pro Bowlers and criminally underrated good players like Justin Smith, aka be playmakers. They're here to prove they should be anchoring us for the next 5-10 years. They're the ones getting the huge contracts if they pan out, just like Clay Matthews and Jason Pierre-Paul are well on their way to getting.

We have taken consistently taken shots on potential playmakers in the first round in our recent history, even Carlos Rogers and Jason Campbell were shots at playmakers. JC was supposed to be Rypien and Doug Williams reincarnated, and to Joe Gibbs, that meant Super Bowl-caliber.

What Atlanta passed up were likely two more "risky" potential playmakers and a special teamer for one "sure thing" offensive player. Of course, Jones is [B]not [/B]risk-free AT ALL, but they deemed him more necessary than what they expected to grab with the picks they had.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

Snippets 980ESPN from Chris Cooley today:

Cooley said he feels 100% a casualty of the lockout.. Not being able 2 treat his knee w/trainers & doctors during offseason

"it's a shame"Cooley says he constantly had knee drained. Felt pressure to be healthier for the fans, "I probably should have taken more time rehabbing."Cooley says microfracture was 50/50 chance of recovery, "to be honest with you, it hurt to run ten yards."

"It's amazing what this franchise means to me .. I'm part of this team.. I have no desire to play for anyone else."

Cooley says when he was at Super Bowl, to watch the Saints that would be biggest moment "this will be the only team I care about....says main goal to accomplish in the NFL is to run out of the tunnel playing in a Super Bowl. Said he wants to do that w/ Redskins

"I am a fan of the Washington #Redskins." "i still believe we are a very good football team."

"I feel so lucky to play for an organization and a fan base, that lets me be myself."

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=12thMan;852692]Snippets 980ESPN from Chris Cooley today:

Cooley said he feels 100% a casualty of the lockout.. Not being able 2 treat his knee w/trainers & doctors during offseason

"it's a shame"Cooley says he constantly had knee drained. Felt pressure to be healthier for the fans, "I probably should have taken more time rehabbing."Cooley says microfracture was 50/50 chance of recovery, "to be honest with you, it hurt to run ten yards."

"It's amazing what this franchise means to me .. I'm part of this team.. I have no desire to play for anyone else."

Cooley says when he was at Super Bowl, to watch the Saints that would be biggest moment "this will be the only team I care about....says main goal to accomplish in the NFL is to run out of the tunnel playing in a Super Bowl. Said he wants to do that w/ Redskins

"I am a fan of the Washington #Redskins." "i still believe we are a very good football team."

"I feel so lucky to play for an organization and a fan base, that lets me be myself."[/quote]

I feel bad for the guy. I hope he can get back to 100% and be a contributer on this team for a few more years.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

I've never met the guy, but I used date a chick that owned a landscaping business and she did the outside of Cooley's home. Had nothing but good things to say about him and his wife. She didn't even realize he was an athlete until I mentioned him. I really hope he retires as a Redskin.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;852587]We are just getting to a point of solid players. That had to be the first focus for MS/BA. Let's give them another draft (maybe two) and real FA period and see what we can get.. seems to me like MS and KS both seemed to know how to find playmakers in their last stints.[/quote]

I agree, this team is only now getting the foundation in place after years of terrible moves. Once the foundation is in place then playmakers can come. I dont think most people really understood how broken this team was and its going to take more than 2 or 3 years just to get this team back to a good starting point..

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7156235/washington-redskins-chris-cooley-ir-says-casualty-nfl-lockout]Washington Redskins' Chris Cooley, on IR, says he's casualty of NFL lockout - ESPN[/url]

Sigh. Don't necessarily agree with Cooley here that the lockout cost him the season. He could've gone to James Andrews in the offseason to get a prognosis but he chose not to. Still though I understand why he would've wanted the comforts and opinions of working with the same doctor he's used to in the past, as they probably know his body more so than other doctors. Either way I hope he's healthy and ready for minicamp next year.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=mooby;852743][url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7156235/washington-redskins-chris-cooley-ir-says-casualty-nfl-lockout]Washington Redskins' Chris Cooley, on IR, says he's casualty of NFL lockout - ESPN[/url]

Sigh. Don't necessarily agree with Cooley here that the lockout cost him the season. He could've gone to James Andrews in the offseason to get a prognosis but he chose not to. Still though I understand why he would've wanted the comforts and opinions of working with the same doctor he's used to in the past, as they probably know his body more so than other doctors. Either way I hope he's healthy and ready for minicamp next year.[/quote]

Well Laron Landry was also affected by the lockout, luckily it didn't cost him as much as it did with Cooley though.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Mechanix544;852499]I guess you are forgetting that he had 77 receptions for almost 900 yards last year, and that was the year he really picked up on his blocking.

All that while giving Fred Davis some playing time, cause you all know we didnt run any two TE sets last year, lol.

In short, he is a valuable commodity, definitely worth a 3rd rounder to some team, possibly a 3rd and 4th. I still think we should keep him though.[/quote]Oh, you meant that kind of productive. Well, yeah, he can probably bounce back to those levels.

He's got pretty much no chance of being the pro bowl level player he was in 2006-2008 though.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

Lmao!!!! Cooley reaching, it the lock out fault..... Ugh No. Davis out played you, you didn't rehab right....... Let it go....... Next year your Fred's backup plan! Stop bitching, you got hurt by a corner, who hurts no one..... Tough break! ;-)

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

Sometimes football players need to be protected from themselves. Cooley shouldn't have played, but Shanahan also could have refrained from playing him. Doesn't matter who's ultimately at blame; both had some responsibility in not maintaining Cooley's health.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Nomad;852776]Lmao!!!! Cooley reaching, it the lock out fault..... Ugh No. Davis out played you, you didn't rehab right....... Let it go....... Next year your Fred's backup plan! Stop bitching, you got hurt by a corner, who hurts no one..... Tough break! ;-)[/quote]

I would be hesitant to say out played. He's had a couple good catches in a couple of games. I would say he simply took over the reigns from an injured Cooley. I'm border line calling Davis a bust. This year he's dropped more balls then he's caught.

[QUOTE=SBXVII;852803] I'm border line calling Davis a bust. This year he's dropped more balls then he's caught.[/QUOTE]

Um...in what world is that?

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=SmootSmack;852809]Um...in what world is that?[/quote]

He has most certainly not had 28 drops, not in this world or any other. That is a massive stretch. And it's also amazing how we're not even a year removed from Cooley having a fine season and fans have already given up on him.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=mooby;852812]He has most certainly not had 28 drops, not in this world or any other. That is a massive stretch. And it's also amazing how we're not even a year removed from Cooley having a fine season and fans have already given up on him.[/quote]

People may have forgotten Cooley was playing FB for a few games. Another reason why he may not have been in on the action as much.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;852813]People may have forgotten Cooley was playing FB for a few games. Another reason why he may not have been in on the action as much.[/quote]

I think people are just forgetting how injured Cooley is. They are acting like what we saw from Cooley in his limited action this year is what we can expect from him for the rest of his career, when that's probably not the case due to him being unhealthy.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

Cooley's a baller. He'll heal up and come back with a.......chip on his shoulder.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

I had no idea that he has missed 20 games from injury over the past three seasons. I knew Cooley would get banged up a little, but I had no idea he had been out that much....

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/27/next-year-cooley-could-be-a-casualty-of-the-cap/]Next year, Cooley could be a casualty of the cap | ProFootballTalk[/url]

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Nomad;852776]Lmao!!!! Cooley reaching, it the lock out fault..... Ugh No. Davis out played you, you didn't rehab right....... Let it go....... Next year your Fred's backup plan! Stop bitching, you got hurt by a corner, who hurts no one..... Tough break! ;-)[/quote]

wow......I see you have'nt been a Redskin fan very long.

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=Nomad;852776]Lmao!!!! Cooley reaching, it the lock out fault..... Ugh No. Davis out played you, you didn't rehab right....... Let it go....... Next year your Fred's backup plan! Stop bitching, you got hurt by a corner, who hurts no one..... Tough break! ;-)[/quote]

smoke crack much?

Re: Cooley put on IR
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;852813]People may have forgotten Cooley was playing FB for a few games. Another reason why he may not have been in on the action as much.[/quote]

Which was ridiculous to say the least.