Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=NC_Skins;874128]I've always known the guy could draft and is one of the best in the league at doing so. A couple years back, this dude over on ES broke down picks between Shanahan and Bellicheck over the past decade. Shanahan came away with a better record in terms of landing success. However, when you hear people talk, Bellicheck is the master at personnel while Shanahan makes a bad GM.

Just like some of the guys up here. Bitching about Mike Williams, Willie Parker, Larry Johnson, etc... What they don't do is stop and think about the people available at the time with the market being restricted the way it was. Everybody was hemmed up on the restricted free agent tags assigned by their teams in the uncapped year that they had nothing really available. People want him to turn something out of nothing. Become the modern day Jesus. The guy can only do so much and of course he's going to make personnel mistakes, they all do.[/quote]There's a difference between saying that a guy is competent in the draft and saying he's one of the best drafters in the league. In Shanahan's case, only one is true.

If we want to get technical, Vinny Cerrato was a pretty good drafter as well. Couldn't build a team without trading picks for frivolous parts, but I have no real issue with his draft work.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;874143]There's a difference between saying that a guy is competent in the draft and saying he's one of the best drafters in the league. In Shanahan's case, only one is true.

[B]If we want to get technical, Vinny Cerrato was a pretty good drafter as well. [/B]Couldn't build a team without trading picks for frivolous parts, but I have no real issue with his draft work.[/quote]


Without doing a lot of research, I just cannot agree with a statement which asserts that Vinnie Boombatz was a good drafter.
[INDENT]Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly

Patrick Ramsey - - in conjunction with Danny Boy to be sure because Danny Boy "discovered" Ramsey[/INDENT]
Those misses - - with high picks in the draft - - were so egregious that you have to wonder if the Skins were using a Magic-8 Ball to make the final decisions on whom to select.

Dick Vermeil once said that unless a team's first round pick made it to the Pro Bowl in the first three or four years of his career, then the pick was not the right one. I think that is an overstatement but it does provide a rather severe measurement tool for draft picks. I don't think Cerrato's picks measure up.

Oh, and if he is a "good drafter" how come he remains unemployed by any NFL teams...?

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;874143]There's a difference between saying that a guy is competent in the draft and saying he's one of the best drafters in the league. In Shanahan's case, only one is true.

[B]If we want to get technical, Vinny Cerrato was a pretty good drafter as well. Couldn't build a team without trading picks for frivolous parts, but I have no real issue with his draft work.[/B][/quote]

Wait, what?!? You're not serious I hope.

2000 draft-8 picks, 2 starters (Arrington, Samuels), 6 remaining players made no NFL impact and are out of the league.
2002 draft-10 picks, 3 role players/backups (Ramsey, Betts, Cartwright), 7 players no NFL impact/out of NFL.
2003 draft-3 picks, 1 starter/role player (Dockery), 2 no impact/out of NFL.
2004 draft-4 picks, 2 starters (Taylor, Cooley) 2 no impact/out of NFL.
2005 draft-6 picks, 2 starters (Campbell, Rogers), 4 no impact/out of NFL.
2006 draft-6 picks, 3 role players/backups (McIntosh, Doughty, Golston), 3 no impact/out of NFL.
2007 draft-6 picks, 1 starter (Landry), 5 no impact/out of NFL.
2008 draft-10 picks, 0 starters, 1 performer (Davis), 3 role players (Thomas, Rinehart, Jackson), 8 no impact/out of NFL.
2009 draft-6 picks, 1 starter (Orakpo), 1 backup (Barnes), 4 no impact/out of NFL.
2010 draft-1 pick (2009 supplemental), out of NFL.

So by my rudimentary math, that's 54 picks, 9 starters (10 if you want to include Davis), 11 backups and [B]34[/B] players that made no NFL impact and were out of the league within 3 years of being drafted.

I'd love to read how you spin this to 'a pretty good drafter' and 'no problems with his draft work'.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Nice work Pain, no real way to refute any of that.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

isnt Vinny still collecting unemployment? doesnt speak too well of the job he did

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

The big problem with Vinny was how he didn't value picks and traded them away like nothing.

He had less picks to deal with, so that makes the mistakes stand out even more.

Seems like he was good for 1-2 quality players per draft (usually from the top rounds), but otherwise I thought his drafts were pretty bad.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Mattyk;874269]The big problem with Vinny was how he didn't value picks and traded them away like nothing.

He had less picks to deal with, so that makes the mistakes stand out even more.

Seems like he was good for 1-2 quality players per draft (usually from the top rounds), but otherwise I thought his drafts were pretty bad.[/quote]

Averaging 1 starter and 1 backup per draft over his tenure is pretty awful.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Mattyk;874269][B]The big problem with Vinny was how he didn't value picks and traded them away like nothing.[/B]

He had less picks to deal with, so that makes the mistakes stand out even more.


Seems like he was good for 1-2 quality players per draft (usually from the top rounds), but otherwise I thought his drafts were pretty bad.[/quote][FONT=Arial]I totally disagee - the only years that Vinny had [/FONT][FONT=Arial]sole responsibility for the draft was 2008 and 2009. He used plenty of picks in '08, but had numerous busts, including Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly. Our cavalier attitude toward draft picks hit its high water mark during Gibbs 2.0, when Joe Gibbs had final say on all football/personnel matters. To review, under Gibbs we traded the following picks that I'm aware of:[/FONT][LIST][*][FONT=Arial]A future 2nd rounder for a 3rd rounder that ended up being Chris Cooley (good trade)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 2nd rounder tossed in as part of the Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis trade (Denver should have given us the extra pick!)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd rounder for Mark Brunell, when he was days from being released by the Jaguars[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A future 1st and a 3rd to move into #25 slot to select Jason Campbell[/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial]Two 2nd rounders and a 6th to move into position to draft Rocky McIntosh early in the 2nd round[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd and a 4th for Brandon Lloyd (compounding that, Gibbs ripped up the last year of his contract and gave Lloyd an extension before he ever played a down here)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd and a 4th for T.J. Duckett (for a 3rd string back!!!!)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 5th for Pete Kendall (good trade)[/FONT][/LIST][FONT=Arial]That is A LOT of traded picks. I'm probably missing others, but you get my drift - Gibbs deserves a huge amount of blame for tossing away draft picks, and we are still paying for that to this day.[/FONT]

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SouperMeister;874290][FONT=Arial]I totally disagee - the only years that Vinny had [/FONT][FONT=Arial]sole responsibility for the draft was 2008 and 2009. He used plenty of picks in '08, but had numerous busts, including Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly. Our cavalier attitude toward draft picks hit its high water mark during Gibbs 2.0, when Joe Gibbs had final say on all football/personnel matters. To review, under Gibbs we traded the following picks that I'm aware of:[/FONT][LIST][*][FONT=Arial]A future 2nd rounder for a 3rd rounder that ended up being Chris Cooley (good trade)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 2nd rounder tossed in as part of the Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis trade (Denver should have given us the extra pick!)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd rounder for Mark Brunell, when he was days from being released by the Jaguars[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A future 1st and a 3rd to move into #25 slot to select Jason Campbell[/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial]Two 2nd rounders and a 6th to move into position to draft Rocky McIntosh early in the 2nd round[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd and a 4th for Brandon Lloyd (compounding that, Gibbs ripped up the last year of his contract and gave Lloyd an extension before he ever played a down here)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd and a 4th for T.J. Duckett (for a 3rd string back!!!!)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 5th for Pete Kendall (good trade)[/FONT][/LIST][FONT=Arial]That is A LOT of traded picks. I'm probably missing others, but you get my drift - Gibbs deserves a huge amount of blame for tossing away draft picks, and we are still paying for that to this day.[/FONT][/quote]

I was trashed here when I said it at the time and still stand behind it, the Joe Gibbs 2.0 years set this franchise back 5-10 years. Vinny was a part of it but he did the franchise no favors long term with his decisions.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;874311]I was trashed here when I said it at the time and still stand behind it, the Joe Gibbs 2.0 years set this franchise back 5-10 years. Vinny was a part of it but he did the franchise no favors long term with his decisions.[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, Vinny dealt more with the contracts, right? I just seem to remember him giving people ridiculous contracts, even when Gibbs called the shots in regards to personnel.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SouperMeister;874290][FONT=Arial]I totally disagee - the only years that Vinny had [/FONT][FONT=Arial]sole responsibility for the draft was 2008 and 2009. He used plenty of picks in '08, but had numerous busts, including Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly. Our cavalier attitude toward draft picks hit its high water mark during Gibbs 2.0, when Joe Gibbs had final say on all football/personnel matters. To review, under Gibbs we traded the following picks that I'm aware of:[/FONT][LIST][*][FONT=Arial]A future 2nd rounder for a 3rd rounder that ended up being Chris Cooley (good trade)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 2nd rounder tossed in as part of the Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis trade (Denver should have given us the extra pick!)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd rounder for Mark Brunell, when he was days from being released by the Jaguars[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A future 1st and a 3rd to move into #25 slot to select Jason Campbell[/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial]Two 2nd rounders and a 6th to move into position to draft Rocky McIntosh early in the 2nd round[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd and a 4th for Brandon Lloyd (compounding that, Gibbs ripped up the last year of his contract and gave Lloyd an extension before he ever played a down here)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd and a 4th for T.J. Duckett (for a 3rd string back!!!!)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 5th for Pete Kendall (good trade)[/FONT][/LIST][FONT=Arial]That is A LOT of traded picks. I'm probably missing others, but you get my drift - Gibbs deserves a huge amount of blame for tossing away draft picks, and we are still paying for that to this day.[/FONT][/quote]

Only in 2008-2009? So who was calling all the shots the rest of the time? He was involved all along.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;874311]I was trashed here when I said it at the time and still stand behind it, the Joe Gibbs 2.0 years set this franchise back 5-10 years. Vinny was a part of it but he did the franchise no favors long term with his decisions.[/quote]

I don't agree fully, but I see what you mean. I'd say 5-10 years is way too extreme & you must factor in what happened right after Gibbs left - Zorn hired, Haynesworth signed, etc.

The question to me is; who was actually making the deals? I always got the impression from reports that Vinny was, Gibbs just decided who to go after in the draft, trades or FA. i.e. don't think we can solely blame Gibbs for all of those picks being blown.

Even if Gibbs 2.0 didn't build the team for the future, he gave us 2 playoff teams, thats more than we'd seen since 99 & we haven't been back yet. Those seasons were the most exciting of the decade hands down.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Mattyk;874314]Only in 2008-2009? So who was calling all the shots the rest of the time? He was involved all along.[/quote]

He was involved but it's kind of foggy as to how much say he had when it came to shaping the roster. 2008 and 2009 there's little doubt as to what his role with the team was. You can also go back to the Spurrier era but to me Snyder was much more involved at that point when it came to shaping the roster.

By the time Vinny was made EVPFO Snyder had started to fade into the background with his only real marks being on helping with the disaster of a coaching search and giving the green light on the funds for the Haynesworth contract.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;874318]He was involved but it's kind of foggy as to how much say he had when it came to shaping the roster. 2008 and 2009 there's little doubt as to what his role with the team was. You can also go back to the Spurrier era but to me Snyder was much more involved at that point when it came to shaping the roster.

By the time Vinny was made EVPFO Snyder had started to fade into the background with his only real marks being on helping with the disaster of a coaching search and giving the green light on the funds for the Haynesworth contract.[/quote]

I think it's safe to assume VC had a significant role in personnel all along. I don't think Snyder ever had a significant role, he had input yes, but I think it was still mostly VC who was guiding the ship.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Mattyk;874321]I think it's safe to assume VC had a significant role in personnel all along. I don't think Snyder ever had a significant role, he had input yes, but I think it was still mostly VC who was guiding the ship.[/quote]

VC was Danny boy's input :silly:

It's impossible to know for sure what those years were like, but my perception is Gibbs was very involved in talent evaluation/acquisition during his 2nd tenure.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=freddyg12;874317]I don't agree fully, but I see what you mean. I'd say 5-10 years is way too extreme & you must factor in what happened right after Gibbs left - Zorn hired, Haynesworth signed, etc.

The question to me is; who was actually making the deals? I always got the impression from reports that Vinny was, Gibbs just decided who to go after in the draft, trades or FA. i.e. don't think we can solely blame Gibbs for all of those picks being blown.

Even if Gibbs 2.0 didn't build the team for the future, he gave us 2 playoff teams, thats more than we'd seen since 99 & we haven't been back yet. Those seasons were the most exciting of the decade hands down.[/quote]
I do factor that in, it's part of the 5-10 years and I agree that sadly our two playoff runs have been the most exciting thing we've see in Redskin land in decades. That says so much.

The Gibbs era was filled with awful roster decisions:
Trading a 3rd round pick for Mark Brunell-he was a backup and trading for him precluded us from considering a free agent QB the following offseason. A guy named Drew Brees.
Throwing in a 2nd round pick in the Bailey deal
Not re-signing Fred Smoot (single most detrimental move in Gibbs era) which led to having to draft Carlos Rogers with the #9 overall pick and bypass a guy sitting around the green room waiting for his name to be called. A guy named Aaron Rodgers. Which also led to us...
Giving up 1st and 2nd round picks to move up for Jason Campbell.
Adam Archuleta-no additional comments needed.
Not re-signing Antonio Pierce, went on to win a title with the Giants
Trading a 2nd round pick for TJ Duckett when Portis was injured.

Those are just off the top of my head, with some research I'm sure I can come up with much more. When he left, we had the oldest roster in the NFL and little to replenish the cupboard with.

Having him oversee Vinny's management of the draft picks was like having Whitney Houston administer Lindsey Lohan's drug rehab. He left Zorn an impending roster disaster and Vinny pushed it over the edge. Only his great coaching propelled us to the playoffs in 2007.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;874311]I was trashed here when I said it at the time and still stand behind it, the Joe Gibbs 2.0 years set this franchise back 5-10 years. Vinny was a part of it but he did the franchise no favors long term with his decisions.[/quote]Not to make it a debate about the merits of the Joe Gibbs 2.0 hire (I think you could probably make the argument that Snyder hasn't ever made a good coaching hire), but there's no comparison between any two year period of Gibbs 2.0 and the two years we just went though. You can't cherry pick two Gibbs seasons that make the last two years look competent by comparision.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;874351]I do factor that in, it's part of the 5-10 years and I agree that sadly our two playoff runs have been the most exciting thing we've see in Redskin land in decades. That says so much.

The Gibbs era was filled with awful roster decisions:
Trading a 3rd round pick for Mark Brunell-he was a backup and trading for him precluded us from considering a free agent QB the following offseason. A guy named Drew Brees.
Throwing in a 2nd round pick in the Bailey deal
Not re-signing Fred Smoot (single most detrimental move in Gibbs era) which led to having to draft Carlos Rogers with the #9 overall pick and bypass a guy sitting around the green room waiting for his name to be called. A guy named Aaron Rodgers. Which also led to us...
Giving up 1st and 2nd round picks to move up for Jason Campbell.
Adam Archuleta-no additional comments needed.
Not re-signing Antonio Pierce, went on to win a title with the Giants
Trading a 2nd round pick for TJ Duckett when Portis was injured.

Those are just off the top of my head, with some research I'm sure I can come up with much more. When he left, we had the oldest roster in the NFL and little to replenish the cupboard with.

Having him oversee Vinny's management of the draft picks was like having Whitney Houston administer Lindsey Lohan's drug rehab. He left Zorn an impending roster disaster and Vinny pushed it over the edge. Only his great coaching propelled us to the playoffs in 2007.[/quote]

Gibbs was never a personnel guy, and Vinny Cerrato is no Bobby Beathard.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;874362]Not to make it a debate about the merits of the Joe Gibbs 2.0 hire (I think you could probably make the argument that Snyder hasn't ever made a good coaching hire), but there's no comparison between any two year period of Gibbs 2.0 and the two years we just went though. You can't cherry pick two Gibbs seasons that make the last two years look competent by comparision.[/quote]

The (key) word being competent. Every year during the playoffs I realize (again) how far we are from being a serious playoff team. Sure we swept the Giants this year but they weren't playing at near the level we saw yesterday. Problem is...I just don't see us playing at that level anytime soon. We can have the roster/players vs coaching debate go on forever, and it probably will. Regardless, our defense at its best doesn't look anything like the top 5 in the league or the Giants at their best as we saw it yesterday. And offensively...well, I'll just jump off this downward spiral now.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;874196]Wait, what?!? You're not serious I hope.

2000 draft-8 picks, 2 starters (Arrington, Samuels), 6 remaining players made no NFL impact and are out of the league.
2002 draft-10 picks, 3 role players/backups (Ramsey, Betts, Cartwright), 7 players no NFL impact/out of NFL.
2003 draft-3 picks, 1 starter/role player (Dockery), 2 no impact/out of NFL.
2004 draft-4 picks, 2 starters (Taylor, Cooley) 2 no impact/out of NFL.
2005 draft-6 picks, 2 starters (Campbell, Rogers), 4 no impact/out of NFL.
2006 draft-6 picks, 3 role players/backups (McIntosh, Doughty, Golston), 3 no impact/out of NFL.
2007 draft-6 picks, 1 starter (Landry), 5 no impact/out of NFL.
2008 draft-10 picks, 0 starters, 1 performer (Davis), 3 role players (Thomas, Rinehart, Jackson), 8 no impact/out of NFL.
2009 draft-6 picks, 1 starter (Orakpo), 1 backup (Barnes), 4 no impact/out of NFL.
2010 draft-1 pick (2009 supplemental), out of NFL.

So by my rudimentary math, that's 54 picks, 9 starters (10 if you want to include Davis), 11 backups and [B]34[/B] players that made no NFL impact and were out of the league within 3 years of being drafted.

I'd love to read how you spin this to 'a pretty good drafter' and 'no problems with his draft work'.[/quote][URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2008&type=&round_min=1&round_max=30&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=den&pos=ALL&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all"]This is Denver's draft record through 2008[/URL].

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2009&type=&round_min=1&round_max=30&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=was&pos=ALL&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all"]This is Washington's draft record through 2009[/URL].

A lot of ink has been spilled on the quality of the 2006 Denver draft, and certainly, it would rank right around the top of any draft the Redskins had in the last decade.

It's also worth pointing out that Denver used to live in a world where Deltha O'Neal (who was DeAngelo Hall before DeAngelo Hall), DJ Williams, and Ashley Lelie were some of the more successful Denver picks. For a six year stretch between 2000-2005, that was absolutely the case.

The two best draft picks (notwithstanding the unfinished careers of talented guys like Clady, Dumerville, and Marshall) of the Denver/Shanahan era (at least post-2000) were Portis and Cutler. The first two Cerrato picks were Samuels/Arrington. There is probably a discussion to be had about the positional value there, but once you get beyond the comparable successes into cases like Sean Taylor (short, sensational career), Darrent Williams (much shorter, no less promising career) and Marshall (short, enigmatic career, had a career year in 2011 elsewhere), the only true thing you know is that the Redskins never stopped giving away draft picks even at the very end.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;874369][URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2008&type=&round_min=1&round_max=30&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=den&pos=ALL&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all"]This is Denver's draft record through 2008[/URL].

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2009&type=&round_min=1&round_max=30&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=was&pos=ALL&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all"]This is Washington's draft record through 2009[/URL].

A lot of ink has been spilled on the quality of the 2006 Denver draft, and certainly, it would rank right around the top of any draft the Redskins had in the last decade.

It's also worth pointing out that Denver used to live in a world where Deltha O'Neal (who was DeAngelo Hall before DeAngelo Hall), DJ Williams, and Ashley Lelie were some of the more successful Denver picks. For a six year stretch between 2000-2005, that was absolutely the case.

The two best draft picks (notwithstanding the unfinished careers of talented guys like Clady, Dumerville, and Marshall) of the Denver/Shanahan era (at least post-2000) were Portis and Cutler. The first two Cerrato picks were Samuels/Arrington. There is probably a discussion to be had about the positional value there, but once you get beyond the comparable successes into cases like Sean Taylor (short, sensational career), Darrent Williams (much shorter, no less promising career) and Marshall (short, enigmatic career, had a career year in 2011 elsewhere), the only true thing you know is that the Redskins never stopped giving away draft picks even at the very end.[/quote]
Not sure how this validates Vinny as 'a pretty good drafter'. Can it be said that at this stage Shanahan has a better 2 year draft record in Washington than any consecutive two yrs of Cerrato. That's a low bar but I'm trying to get your gauge of 'pretty good'.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;874383]Not sure how this validates Vinny as 'a pretty good drafter'. Can it be said that at this stage Shanahan has a better 2 year draft record in Washington than any consecutive two yrs of Cerrato. That's a low bar but I'm trying to get your gauge of 'pretty good'.[/quote]I think that's probably not an unfair defense of the Shanahan era, and I suppose it's accuracy depends one who we attribute the Gibbs drafts to. More to the point, I think Shanahan has outdrafted Cerrato in each of their two most recent drafts.

Vinny's draft record can be validated only by his proficiency in the first round where the stakes are highest and comparatively by Shanahan's struggles in the first round. It wasn't coincidental that Cerrato's worst drafts came when the Redskins did not have a first round pick.

Personally, I'm not yet sure what we have in Trent Williams outside of someone who is both talented and young (which would be the top two criteria for a draft pick), although Kerrigan seems like a far better bet.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;874143]There's a difference between saying that a guy is competent in the draft and saying he's one of the best drafters in the league. In Shanahan's case, only one is true.

If we want to get technical, Vinny Cerrato was a pretty good drafter as well. Couldn't build a team without trading picks for frivolous parts, but I have no real issue with his draft work.[/quote]


So who's exactly better at drafting in the NFL?

You lost all credibility the moment you said that Vinny was a pretty good drafter as well.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;874196]Wait, what?!? You're not serious I hope.

I'd love to read how you spin this to 'a pretty good drafter' and 'no problems with his draft work'.[/quote]

You have to forgive Captain Ahab. He's hunting his elusive white whale(shanahan).


[quote=SouperMeister;874290][FONT=Arial]I totally disagee - the only years that Vinny had [/FONT][FONT=Arial]sole responsibility for the draft was 2008 and 2009. He used plenty of picks in '08, but had numerous busts, including Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly. Our cavalier attitude toward draft picks hit its high water mark during Gibbs 2.0, when Joe Gibbs had final say on all football/personnel matters. To review, under Gibbs we traded the following picks that I'm aware of:[/FONT]


[/LIST][FONT=Arial]That is A LOT of traded picks. I'm probably missing others, but you get my drift - Gibbs deserves a huge amount of blame for tossing away draft picks, and we are still paying for that to this day.[/FONT][/quote]

You are right that Gibbs 2.0 is a huge part of why we are so awful today. He didn't give a shit about this team in the long run, and blew it all away for a "win now" that never materialized to actually winning. You are wrong on the fact that Vinny wasn't involved. Gibbs, Vinny AND Dan were all apart of the decision making during Gibbs 2.0.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=NC_Skins;874406]So who's exactly better at drafting in the NFL?

You lost all credibility the moment you said that Vinny was a pretty good drafter as well.[/quote]I don't know if it's your place to comment on anyone's credibility, but the point is well taken.

I simply don't know who is better. Performance in the first round disproportionately affects how I perceive someone as an able drafter. If you draft Ashlie Lelie in the first round, it doesn't necessarily mean you can't draft, but I'm also not going to bow down and kiss your feet when you get a pick right.

I'm not saying you should only grade a draft by it's first round pick, but if you perform consistently well in the first round, I'm going to consider someone an able drafter even if they can't build a team. I mean, if the Redskins end up drafting the offensive rookie of the year in the first round in 2012, it'd be really tough to complain about Shanahan's draft record. And heck, they might win something once!

I think Mike Shanahan does a pretty good job finding offensive skill and interior OL talents in the mid to late rounds. We haven't necessarily seen any of that here beyond the RB position with Helu and Royster, but if we need to get some TEs or centers or guards, I would generally trust Mike Shanahan to find able bodies. Body of work though is less than impressive.

My official opinion is that this is a lot of debate about two guys with a really weak track record since offense has exploded in the last half-decade, but if proving the dominance of the Shanahan era compared to the Cerrato era makes you feel warm and fuzzy at night, I'll be happy to play devils advocate.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=NC_Skins;874412]You have to forgive Captain Ahab. He's hunting his elusive white whale(shanahan).[/quote]It's not fair to say I'm out hunting Mike Shanahan. I would have checked your house first if I was.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Tripp dont you think Shanny has done fairly well with the Skins draft? Points taken with the history of Shanny (you stretch a little bit on the Vinny statement), but Im always of the "what have you done for me lately" crowd. Last year especially seems promising. This draft coming up will be the most important, could be his last if his QB choice bombs.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Mattyk;874269]The big problem with Vinny was how he didn't value picks and traded them away like nothing.[/quote]

THIS was the main issue. I remember a interview where he basically said that a "proven player" is better than the draft picks, which was his reasoning for pissing them all away. He was a ****ing idiot to say the least, and I'm glad he's gone. It's also another reason why we were one of the oldest teams in the league because we had no young talent coming in.


[quote=Dirtbag59;874318]He was involved but it's kind of foggy as to how much say he had when it came to shaping the roster.[/quote]

According to Joe, it was collaboration of him, Vinny and Dan that made the decisions. Snyder on the other hand says it was Joe's show and Vinny reported to Gibbs. I'm more inclined to believe Joe Gibbs on that.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Chico23231;874417]Tripp dont you think Shanny has done fairly well with the Skins draft? Points taken with the history of Shanny (you stretch a little bit on the Vinny statement), but Im always of the "what have you done for me lately" crowd. Last year especially seems promising. This draft coming up will be the most important, could be his last if his QB choice bombs.[/quote]I think he's done pretty well. I think he sort of screwed himself along the way, but it's pretty remarkable that he's overcome that to even compete with the rest of the league. We've probably outdrafted 12-15 teams over the last two years, which is not insignificant, and impressive considering the circumstances.

His past inconsistencies aside, he's not going to be around long enough to be defined by what he does on draft day. He would have needed to have a heck of a draft in year one (as well as year two) to turn the team around quickly via the draft, like Atlanta did. The McNabb trade pretty much ended those hopes on the day it was made, and not being able to trade down from 4th overall iced that.

At this point, the 2012 draft is still really critical and potentially pivotal for the franchise, but we won't win in 2012 if we don't make smart moves with free agents and trades and have by far the best year yet in terms of shaping the roster. It's the most resources they have had this offseason, but because the Redskins don't even project as an average team right now, it needs to be a heck of an offseason to compete next year. They have to improve pretty much across the board and do it while finding a good quarterback. It would take an Atlanta 2008 or New Orleans 2006 type of offseason to win the division next year.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Let the cake bake guys quit trying to pull it out an stick forks,tooth picks and your fingers in it we've seen that too many times

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Per the two articles in Redskins news (to the left) discussing o-line and WR roster depth I think it's pretty hard to argue the new regime has made significant progress in either facet. Younger? Along the o-line yes but still lacking quality depth and a starting RT altogether. At WR it's really neither unless Hankerson turns into a #1 or very, very solid #2.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Funny I thought the OL depth was pretty good considering how well they played down the stretch. But he also made the point some of that was due to scheme. We saw less of the stretch stuff and more inside tosses.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=The Goat;874885]Per the two articles in Redskins news (to the left) discussing o-line and WR roster depth I think it's pretty hard to argue the new regime has made significant progress in either facet. Younger? Along the o-line yes but still lacking quality depth and a starting RT altogether. At WR it's really neither unless Hankerson turns into a #1 or very, very solid #2.[/quote]

I'd say having a young franchise LT is significant, and that the line is younger as you note. I would say significant progress has been made on the o line, but that it doesn't yet equate to success. Rather they've set themselves up fairly well to draft/add FAs to make it at least a decent unit (we all agree it really sucked when Shanny took over).

WR is a position that we can't get too excited about, we still have one of the weakest units in the nfl. That said, Gafney had a really good year, Hankerson did well in limited time & Niles Paul did as well in the role he played. There was some "progress" but it's not that significant yet. Moss & Armstrong were well below last year's production. This is still a position of great need, 2nd only to QB IMO. However, I give Shanny his props for drafting Hankerson & Paul, both could play big roles next year & after.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

This was a nice write up. It would be pretty cool to pick up maybe 2 of the WR's, the left Guard, and Flynn.

[url=http://riggosrag.com/2012/01/11/who-will-the-redskins-target-in-free-agency/]Who will the Redskins target in free agency? - Riggo's Rag - A Washington Redskins Fan Site - News, Blogs, Opinion and more.[/url]

Then I would still try for RGIII with moving up, if no one will trade then see if RGIII falls to #6 (which I doubt happens), If RGIII is gone then I'd look to trade back for more picks and pick up the Rookie QB or WR late in round 1. Round 2 I would take whatever I did not pick in round 1 between WR and QB. Then I start picking OL, FS, CB and I don't know why people are hung up on it but LB.

Somewhere in all this I'd keep trying to trade back for more picks like they did last year.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;874424]

At this point, the 2012 draft is still really critical and potentially pivotal for the franchise, but we won't win in 2012 if we don't make smart moves with free agents and trades and have by far the best year yet in terms of shaping the roster. It's the most resources they have had this offseason, but because the Redskins don't even project as an average team right now, it needs to be a heck of an offseason to compete next year. They have to improve pretty much across the board and do it while finding a good quarterback. It would take an Atlanta 2008 or New Orleans 2006 type of offseason to win the division next year.[/quote]

Shanny seems to have gotten better at drafts over the years and last year his FA signings were all reasonably priced guys who did contribute, at least if they could stay on the field in a healthy fashion. And it got away from the Vinny days of things like Hanyesworth.

I agree it will take a good offseason to really compete but with how he has been building the team I doubt he even tries to really compete next year. If he goes 8-8 next year he can justify his statements of being on the right path and, like we likely will, have a rookie QB he has an easy scapegoat of the growing pains of a young QB if our record is around the same as this year.

2012 offseason is really about building a roster to compete in 2013 and onward.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Mattyk;874887]Funny I thought the OL depth was pretty good considering how well they played down the stretch. But he also made the point some of that was due to scheme. We saw less of the stretch stuff and more inside tosses.[/quote]You thought they were better?

I agree that the Redskins got a lot more multiple in the run game, started using trick plays to keep defenses honest, got away from making the naked bootleg a staple of the passing game, and even threw in small wrinkles off of established staple plays (the short toss off the zone game). And you would be surprised at how our season-long numbers for the rushing game came out, especially since we treated the running game as "the annoying thing that offenses sometimes do" for about ten games.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SkinItup;874912]Shanny seems to have gotten better at drafts over the years and last year his FA signings were all reasonably priced guys who did contribute, at least if they could stay on the field in a healthy fashion. And it got away from the Vinny days of things like Hanyesworth.[/quote]Ultimately, the 2011 offseason was a lot of contract and cap dollars spent, and just not that much production for the effort.

The good news is that the Redskins didn't commit a lot of dead money like they have in the past to guys like Archuleta and Lloyd. The Bowen, Cofield, and Chester contracts aren't exactly dead in the water. They could all be improved players in 2012, which is one important element of free agent signings. Even the Atogwe contract isn't yet dead money.

Still, they all MUST improve to justify the deals they were given. 2012 is a make or break year for guys like Chester and Bowen, and it's an important year for Cofield as well.

I think the jury is still out on many of the free agents we brought in last offseason, but there's a chance they could look like very bad moves in a year. They haven't been discussed in this thread because none of them (except maybe Atogwe) would rank among the top 10 moves that haven't worked out re: Shanahan. But that doesn't mean everything is great or that the roster is in great shakes.

[quote]I agree it will take a good offseason to really compete but with how he has been building the team I doubt he even tries to really compete next year. If he goes 8-8 next year he can justify his statements of being on the right path and, like we likely will, have a rookie QB he has an easy scapegoat of the growing pains of a young QB if our record is around the same as this year.

2012 offseason is really about building a roster to compete in 2013 and onward.[/quote]

8-8 probably isn't good enough on it's own merits, but style points count. If they have a year where the offense has a sensational season under Kyle Shanahan and a new QB puts up great numbers, Shanahan is probably safe for 2013 so long as he's willing to make gruesome cuts to his staff in the weak areas responsible for the losing.

If it's more of the same though, he's done.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;874978]You thought they were better?

I agree that the Redskins got a lot more multiple in the run game, started using trick plays to keep defenses honest, got away from making the naked bootleg a staple of the passing game, and even threw in small wrinkles off of established staple plays (the short toss off the zone game). And you would be surprised at how our season-long numbers for the rushing game came out, especially since we treated the running game as "the annoying thing that offenses sometimes do" for about ten games.[/quote]

I though the depth was better than last year, yes

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Mattyk;874982]I though the depth was better than last year, yes[/quote]*remembers who was depth last year*

Yeah, that's probably right.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;874980]8-8 probably isn't good enough on it's own merits, but style points count. If they have a year where the offense has a sensational season under Kyle Shanahan and a new QB puts up great numbers, Shanahan is probably safe for 2013 so long as he's willing to make gruesome cuts to his staff in the weak areas responsible for the losing.

If it's more of the same though, he's done.[/quote]

He's good through 2014, no questions. He's gone on the record too many times saying 'I told Dan Snyder if you aren't going to give me 5 years to turn this around then don't hire me' for Snyder to fire him after 3 years. What that does is take the onus off of him and makes Snyder look like he's gone back on his words and like the quick triggered impulsive owner that everyone thinks he is. That being said, he won't go into the final year of his contract as a lame duck. He will either get an extension or resign after 4 years.