Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

awesome post 30Gut. i see the defense checking out the bottom of griffs adidas cleats on that one

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

Gruden is badass...I'd take him for HC tomorrow :)

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

Found another zone read look:

[url=http://s532.photobucket.com/albums/ee321/Txredskins44/Giants%20vs%20Redskins%202011/?action=view&current=Redskins1stTDDrive.mp4&]Giants vs Redskins 2011 :: Redskins1stTDDrive.mp4 video by Txredskins44 - Photobucket[/url]

@ 1:17 mark

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=30gut;918399]Found another zone read look:

[url=http://s532.photobucket.com/albums/ee321/Txredskins44/Giants%20vs%20Redskins%202011/?action=view&current=Redskins1stTDDrive.mp4&]Giants vs Redskins 2011 :: Redskins1stTDDrive.mp4 video by Txredskins44 - Photobucket[/url]

@ 1:17 mark[/quote]
Here's a closer look at another play that has a zone-read look.
Although its probably a designed run for the RB all the elements for a zone-read are present just like the play illistrated earlier from the Bills game.

- the formation
[IMG]http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/141/cd2fec739c1444399f67e9fd235687c7/l.jpg[/IMG]

-the handoff that gives a read action "look"
[IMG]http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/153/1c3da822a7fc4be38c2f4b6c2ec3c45e/l.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/139/31de979e53654fabbd5d943a34eaaf96/l.jpg[/IMG]
-RB takes the handoff; QB completes the 'sell' of the play/read fake with a fake pass (notice the frozen backside defender)
[IMG]http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/138/635012000fa941b5b121dd30a72bb879/l.jpg[/IMG]

I don't care if he runs the ball from time to time. Just please get the yards and get out of bounds. Im going to worry if i hear the talking head announcers say anything like "he really delivered a blow on that run" or "sometimes you need to fight or that extra yard".

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=30gut;918585]Here's a closer look at another play that has a zone-read look.
Although its probably a designed run for the RB all the elements for a zone-read are present just like the play illistrated earlier from the Bills game.

- the formation
[IMG]http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/141/cd2fec739c1444399f67e9fd235687c7/l.jpg[/IMG]

-the handoff that gives a read action "look"
[IMG]http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/153/1c3da822a7fc4be38c2f4b6c2ec3c45e/l.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/139/31de979e53654fabbd5d943a34eaaf96/l.jpg[/IMG]
-RB takes the handoff; QB completes the 'sell' of the play/read fake with a fake pass (notice the frozen backside defender)
[IMG]http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/138/635012000fa941b5b121dd30a72bb879/l.jpg[/IMG][/quote]Good find. I'm a bit surprised (not at all disappointed) that Kyle was running this series with Grossman, but you can see the upside to an option play, even if one of the potential options (Grossman keeps the ball) isn't going to be honored by the defense.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

I'm expecting Kyle Shanahan to add new wrinkles and plays to their version of the west coast offense. They are fully going to build the offense around the things that Griffin III does best. In fact, a modified west coast offense is what they will be using this season and beyond.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=VegasSkinsFan;918591]I don't care if he runs the ball from time to time. Just please get the yards and get out of bounds. Im going to worry if i hear the talking head announcers say anything like "he really delivered a blow on that run" or "sometimes you need to fight or that extra yard".[/quote]If and when Griffin runs he'll have to be much more situationally aware about avoiding vs. trying to get more yards then he was in college.
Griffin ran with a fearlessness that borderlined on recklessness at Baylor.

I would like to see Griffin emulate Cam Newton when it comes to running.
Despite Cam's tremendous size he was very aware conscious of avoiding unneccesary contact.
Cam rarely chose to take hits he often went down of his accord or ran out of bounds.
He seemed to only expose his body to big hits on the goalline or if a 3rd down conversion was in the balance.
I would like Griffin to adopt the same mentality.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;918592]Good find. I'm a bit surprised (not at all disappointed) that Kyle was running this series with Grossman, but you can see the upside to an option play, even if one of the potential options (Grossman keeps the ball) isn't going to be honored by the defense.[/quote]Yeah, I was pretty pumped to find it with Grossman.
I can't believe the contain defender didn't chase down the line toward the RB immediately, I guess he was waiting to see if Grossman kept the ball but in that case he should have covered the #2 receiver to his side and not played contain because ain't no way in the world Grossman was gonna gain positive yards if he kept it to run.

Although I've only found a handful of zone-read concept plays its still encouraging that the bare bones concepts however scarce exist within this offense.
It makes the notion of Kyle actually running some zone-read for Griffin plausible if still highly unlikely. (we can always hope)

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;918670]I'm [I][B]expecting[/B][/I] Kyle Shanahan to add new wrinkles and plays to their version of the west coast offense. [I][B]They are fully going to build the offense around the things that Griffin III does best.[/B][/I] In fact, [I][B]a modified west coast offense is what they will be using this season and beyond[/B][/I].[/quote]
I think its a matter of course that Kyle will build his offense around Griffin, like he's done with all his QBs and Mike has done for all his QBs.

But, what [I][B]new[/B][/I] wrinkles do you [I][B]expect [/B][/I]and what about Kyle makes you expect them?

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

I think they'll show it just as another thing teams have to prepare for, but I don't think they'll commit to it no matter how well it's actually working.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;918714]I think they'll show it just as another thing teams have to prepare for, but I don't think they'll commit to it no matter how well it's actually working.[/quote]Hand held to the fire I agree, I actually don't think Kyle will make any real effort to add or run zone read as anything other then a novelty.
But, [I][B]if[/B][/I] he does commit to making it part of the base offense wow, the potential....

But, Griff is a stud.
Even if you plug Griff into last years offense he would be productive.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

I really believe that we will see 20 or maybe 30% of our plays from the shotgun this year. Get him early reps, alot of them, and give him a chance to pick defenses apart from a 3 step shotgun with alot of flankers, tight-end flats, and quick slants. His accuracy is uncanny, pick away at the defense, and then bust em with the ol hitch and go. I think we will see alot of short passes setting up the deep throws, more-so than the run setting up all of the passes...........

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=Mechanix544;918807]I really believe that we will see 20 or maybe 30% of our plays from the shotgun this year............[/quote]You probably mean more then 20-30% of our plays from the shotgun because that % is actually less then we ran last year.(I've looked it up before its available on Fox stats)

I understand that you [I]want[/I] to see more shotugn, I do too.

I just wonder what makes you think Kyle would chnage his offense that much?

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

I think it might be a tad easier to dissect defenses from the shotgun, and that paired with his athleticism could open passing lanes even more. If we did run that much shotgun last year, it sure didnt seem like it. But I could see an increase, is basically what I am saying. I dont know the percentages, but with the fast WR's and the type of cranial, intellectual qb we have now, I could see that combo really spreading the field alot more than we did the past two years under shanny.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=Mechanix544;918811]I think it might be a tad easier to dissect defenses from the shotgun, and that paired with his athleticism could open passing lanes even more. If we did run that much shotgun last year, it sure didnt seem like it. But I could see an increase, is basically what I am saying. I dont know the percentages, but with the fast WR's and the type of cranial, intellectual qb we have now, I could see that combo really spreading the field alot more than we did the past two years under shanny.[/quote]Again, I agree.
I was just wondering what makes you think Kyle would change?

I think running more spread shotgun and adding some zone-read would be logical and dynamic.

But, I just don't think Kyle is gonna deviate very much from the offense we currently see because I think Griff is a perfect fit without making any real changes.
I think we'll the same offense with more movement passes i.e. bootlegs/roll outs/dash outs.

I guess a mix of what we saw last year mixed with:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl6QmrTeGE0&feature=player_embedded]Jake "the Snake" Plummer — An American's American - YouTube[/ame]

oh, just so you know I'm not guessing about the shotgun %:

We had 50.3% of our passing comes from the shotgun
Grossman+Beck found here:
([url=http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/rex-grossman/140445?q=rex-grossman]Rex Grossman | Washington Redskins | Stats, Pictures, News | NFL Football | FOX Sports on MSN[/url])

we threw 591 passes/ 16 games=36.9 passes/game x .503=
~18 plays from shotgun per game.

Our average plays per game:
591 passs plays + 400 run plays=991 plays/16 games=61.9 plays per game (NFL average is 65 plays per game.)

20% of 62=12 plays from shotgun
30% of 62=18 plays from shotgun

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

One thing I would like to see more of that the Redskins didn't do much of last season was pass the ball on the very first offensive play from scrimmage. Kyle Shanahan called running plays on the very first play from scrimmage in 12 out of 16 games last season. Now, the Redskins have the offensive personnel to change that this coming season.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;918825]One thing I would like to see more of that the Redskins didn't do much of last season was pass the ball on the very first offensive play from scrimmage. Kyle Shanahan called running plays on the very first play from scrimmage in 12 out of 16 games last season. Now, the Redskins have the offensive personnel to change that this coming season.[/quote]Isn't the opening play call pass/run relatively inconsequential both to the type of offense and to the overall gameplan?

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=30gut;918830]Isn't the opening play call pass/run relatively inconsequential both to the type of offense and to the overall gameplan?[/quote]

I think it's consequential to the quarterback and therefor offense as a whole. I bet if you looked at the percent of games Manning/Brady pass right out of the gate it's much higher than 25%.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=The Goat;918843]I think it's consequential to the quarterback and therefor offense as a whole. I bet if you looked at the percent of games Manning/Brady pass right out of the gate it's much higher than 25%.[/quote]
Why/how does the 1st play of the offense being pass/run effect the type offense?
And how does the opening play being a pass or a run effect the QB and therefore the offense as a whole?

There are only 16 games therefore there are only 16 '1st plays' in the context of a season where there are roughly 1040 plays.
We're talking about 1 play out of 65 for a game or 16 plays out 1040 for a season.
I don't understand what difference it makes if the 1st offensive play of a game is a pass or a run.

I don't see why the nature (pass/run) of the 1st play of game holds some special importance.
Its just one play and in the context of a game a relatively unimportant or inconsequential play.
Games are not won or lost based on the opening play of the game.

[quote=The Goat;918843]I bet if you looked at the percent of games Manning/Brady pass right out of the gate it's much higher than 25%.[/quote]Even if Brady/Manning 1st offensive play of a game was a pass more then 25% what difference does that make?
What effect does that have on the rest of the game?
The outcome of the game or the type of offense/gameplan is not determined by the opening play call.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

Not sure I really see the significance of the first play of a game either.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

their opponents aren't complete strangers, "setting the tone" on the first play of a game doesn't have the same importance

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=30gut;918830]Isn't the opening play call pass/run relatively inconsequential both to the type of offense and to the overall gameplan?[/quote]

I'm not entirely sure. But one of the reasons why they did that type of play calling was probably because of the bad caliber of QB play. I can remember the second Giants game, which was one of the four games where Kyle Shanahan called a pass play as the first play from scrimmage, and Grossman threw a pick. Maybe they were comfortable handing the ball to Helu Jr., or Hightower istead of having Grossman and Beck throw the rock during the first play from scrimmage. With RG3, it wouldn't be at all surprising if they pass it the first play from scrimmage in most of the games this coming season.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;918861]I'm not entirely sure. But one of the reasons why they did that type of play calling was probably because of the bad caliber of QB play. I can remember the second Giants game, which was one of the four games where Kyle Shanahan called a pass play as the first play from scrimmage, and Grossman threw a pick. Maybe they were comfortable handing the ball to Helu Jr., or Hightower istead of having Grossman and Beck throw the rock during the first play from scrimmage. With RG3,[/quote]I don't like to get into the speculation on why a coach makes a particular playcall because so much goes into every call.
I think its a gross minimization to say well they probably called play X because of Y.
And the theory that they called runs on the opening play call because they didn't trust Rex/Beck doesn't really hold water for me.
Over the course of the year the pass/run ratio was heavily titled towards the pass at a ratio of 60 to 40, that doesn't happen if a team is more comfortable handing the ball to their backs.

But, were talking about the opening play call without knowing where ours shake out in regards to the other teams.
Are we middle of the pack in terms of pass/run ratio? Head of the pack? Bottom of the pack?


[quote]it wouldn't be at all surprising if they pass it the first play from scrimmage in most of the games this coming season.[/quote]I still don't see the import of the opening playcall in regards to the offensive scheme/game plan.
Whether they pass more/less on the opening play doesn't equate to a change in the type of offensive scheme.

Imo the opening playcall probably comes down to a team calling what they view as their most successful play or the play with the highest percentage of gaining positives yards and therefore creating a manageable 2nd down to create a manageable 3rd down to sustain the opening drive.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

To my untrained eye, Kyle's offense changed to more rollouts/bootlegs when Beck briefly replaced Grossman last season. Looking forward to seeing a much more wide-open offense with RG3.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=HailGreen28;918865]To my untrained eye, Kyle's offense changed to more rollouts/bootlegs when Beck briefly replaced Grossman last season. Looking forward to seeing a much more wide-open offense with RG3.[/quote]
I guess it depends on what you mean by change.
The difference between the playcalling with Rex to bootlegs w/ Beck during the Panthers game I don't consider a change in the [I]offense[/I] as much as a shift in the playcalling.
To my eye the Panthers gameplan was still within the framework of the offense; in fact I think that run heavy/boot-action passing is more true to the Texans/Denver WCO playcalling/gameplan/scheme.

But, depending on what you mean by more wide-open that would be a true change.
I'm assuming you mean more shotgun-spread passing?

I think we'll see a mix of what we say last year+some Texans 5-7 step drop deep passing+5-7 step drop/roll-out heavy Jake Plummer Denver WCO.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

The baseline on these DVOA stats is against both runs and passes. So first round run calls are being compared to all first and ten plays leaguewide. Etc. These are the Redskins rates and ranks from the 2011 season.

The Redskins are still pretty dreadful on third downs, but the third down conversion percentage improved from 2010 because they were a lot better on first down this year, so they weren't in quite as many third and longs (and in third down less often altogether).

1st down pass
36.5% (7th)

1st down run
-2.2% (20th)

All first downs
13.6% (10th)

2nd down pass
-8.6% (25th)

2nd down run
-10.0% (30th)

All 2nd down
-11.6% (28th)

3rd/4th passes
-23.6% (27th)

3rd/4th runs
53.2% (4th)

All 3rd/4th down
-18.9% (26th)

All downs (passing)
3.5% (22nd)

All downs (rushing)
-0.5% (17th)

All Downs
-2.1% (19th)

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=30gut;918866]I guess it depends on what you mean by change.
The difference between the playcalling with Rex to bootlegs w/ Beck during the Panthers game I don't consider a change in the [I]offense[/I] as much as a shift in the playcalling.
To my eye the Panthers gameplan was still within the framework of the offense; in fact I think that run heavy/boot-action passing is more true to the Texans/Denver WCO playcalling/gameplan/scheme.

But, depending on what you mean by more wide-open that would be a true change.
I'm assuming you mean more shotgun-spread passing?

I think we'll see a mix of what we say last year+some Texans 5-7 step drop deep passing+5-7 step drop/roll-out heavy Jake Plummer Denver WCO.[/quote]I agree with you, that with Beck it wasn't a different playbook than Grossman, just different play calling.

I should have been more clear on "wide-open". I have no clue if we're running more shotgun/spread this season.

I'm just thinking this season will seem like night and day between Grossman scrambling, and Griffin running the same play. With more bootlegs/rollouts from under center called.

Yeah, would love to see the deep passing you're talking about on the rollouts. I thought McNabb did once in awhile while he was here, and Grossman tried to do the same.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;918867]The baseline on these DVOA stats is against both runs and passes. So first round run calls are being compared to all first and ten plays leaguewide. Etc. These are the Redskins rates and ranks from the 2011 season.[/quote]Thanks G, very interesting.

What is the percentage in the figures?
Is it the percentage chance of converting for a 1st down?

Can you post or link the complete data set?

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=HailGreen28;918871]I'm just thinking this season will seem like night and day between Grossman scrambling, and Griffin running the same play. With more bootlegs/rollouts from under center called.[/quote]Yep, some of the yards that Grossman left out there because of mobility and lack of arm strength/velocity, deep ball accuracy Griff will capitalize on.

[quote=Hail]Yeah, would love to see the deep passing you're talking about on the rollouts.[/quote]I def think we'll see more 5-7 step drop intermediate passing:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6jgICvbuoA&feature=player_embedded]Matt Schaub Houston Texans Highlights - YouTube[/ame]

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=30gut;918885]I def think we'll see more 5-7 step drop intermediate passing:

(snip pretty cool video)[/quote]Hated the first play lol, but nice video. Hope we do see more of that this season.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=30gut;918884]Thanks G, very interesting.

What is the percentage in the figures?
Is it the percentage chance of converting for a 1st down?

Can you post or link the complete data set?[/quote]The percentage is simply this:

Outcome value of the play/baseline

A 30% play was 30 percent more valuable than the expectation for the down and distance.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;918944]The percentage is simply this:

Outcome value of the play/baseline

A 30% play was 30 percent more valuable than the expectation for the down and distance.[/quote]Thanks,
Do you have the 1st down stats for the Texans?
I wonder how we compare to a good running team.

Personally I don't think Kyle is gonna make significant or meaningful changes.
I think the offense we saw last year is gonna be the offense we see this year.
But, I'm filled with hope and eagerness to be proved utterly wrong.
Because if they harnessed the talent of Griffin and really altered the offense around his skillset he could have a huge impact.
But, at the end of the day I think Robert Griffin is a 'coach proof' talent.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

Better:

In all honesty, I feel our offense was good enough last year. Not saying it was elite or anything along that line, but good enough to compete with "the best" (which they still did, damn Giants). The problem naturally, was QB, and that's what it's going to boil down to this year.

Defenses stacked the box to force the ball into Rex Grossmans hands for the simple fact he didn't scare anyone. Granted he did get some wins, but 9/10 times it's going to work for you.

If Robert Griffin III can come out and shine and cause defenses to respect us, then were finally going to see this offense come together, we'll be able to mix things up a lot better and hurt defenses both in the air and on the ground.

So I guess in a sense, it all boils down to RGIII. Not saying we can't use better players at certain positions and add better depth, but the main reason we failed last year was because nobody feared Grossman.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=HailGreen28;918865]To my untrained eye, Kyle's offense changed to more rollouts/bootlegs when Beck briefly replaced Grossman last season. Looking forward to seeing a much more wide-open offense with RG3.[/quote]

That's because Beck could actually run well. Rex was the master of the "step into a defender for a sack fumble".

I expect the offense to adapt to RGIII's mobility. They'd be stupid not to tailor the playbook to his talents.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

I think we'll see RG3 rolling out a ton. Play-action off the stretch zone will be deadly.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=Mattyk;918994]I think we'll see RG3 rolling out a ton. Play-action off the stretch zone will be deadly.[/quote]

Those types of plays will work effectively in the short passing game. Expect a lot of high percentage completions to the fullback in the flat, the tight end in the middle of the field, or the half back in the flat.

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

show me some shades of the 1998 vikings offense

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=los panda;919007]show me some shades of the 1998 vikings offense[/quote]

Why not the 1991 Redskins?

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;919004]Those types of plays will work effectively in the short passing game. Expect a lot of high percentage completions to the fullback in the flat, the tight end in the middle of the field, or the half back in the flat.[/quote]

Bubble screen!

(Anyone who heard the commentary during the OK State game will understand...)

Re: A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?
 

[quote=30gut;918956]Thanks,
Do you have the 1st down stats for the Texans?
I wonder how we compare to a good running team.

Personally I don't think Kyle is gonna make significant or meaningful changes.
I think the offense we saw last year is gonna be the offense we see this year.
But, I'm filled with hope and eagerness to be proved utterly wrong.
Because if they harnessed the talent of Griffin and really altered the offense around his skillset he could have a huge impact.
But, at the end of the day I think Robert Griffin is a 'coach proof' talent.[/quote]For the 2011 Texans:

1st down passing
59.2% (3rd)

1st down rushing
-0.6% (16th)

All 1st downs
20.3% (5th)

2nd down passing
8.2% (17th)

2nd down rushing
9.3% (10th)

All 2nd downs
4.9% (16th)

3rd/4th down passing
7.5% (15th)

3rd/4th down rushing
30.3% (8th)

All 3rd/4th downs
13.2% (12th)

All passing
27.3% (9th)

All rushing
7.9% (10th)

All offense
13.3% (9th)

If you look at the trends, the Texans are really similar to us (I suppose thats not the most surprising thing). They're a lot better on offense, sure, but the down/distance splits break down almost exactly identical.