re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;986599]Thank you very much for the clarification.

So since we had a credit of 13mil then the ramifications of the next 18mil could be a little more severe to how we are able to work our roster this offseason. Is that a fair assessment CC?[/quote]

Yes that is a fair assessment. But like CRed said I don't think these issues are insurmountable. A couple restructures and cap related moves and we should be ok.

In the Vinny days we didn't have to deal with penalties but always had big deadcap charges. For instance when we traded Coles for Moss we took an instant $9M deadcap hit.

So while $18M sounds (and is) a lot, it's not that big of a deal, at least in Redskins cap land.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

Gotcha. Still this isn't optimal.

Thanks for all the info!

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;986614]maybe, but so far BA has shown a good ability to manage the situation. I am sure there will be some negative effect, after all it was a 36Million dollar handicap to the rest of the league. But my belief is that we will be better prepared to deal with it this year, than last when it was sprung after all the plans had been made. And if any relief at all is given, well so much the better.[/quote]

I guess another way of looking at it is if there were no uncapped year, we would have been screwed anyway because we'd have been stuck with all those horrible contracts (that we dumped in the uncapped year).

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;986626]I guess another way of looking at it is if there were no uncapped year, we would have been screwed anyway because we'd have been stuck with all those horrible contracts (that we dumped in the uncapped year).[/quote]

Right, I think the 36 million was basically the sum of those horrible contracts, and in a sense rather than taking some untimely/insurmountable hit, we made them slightly more manageable, and with some reasonably benign cap magic we make them **disappear** (waving a wand of course)

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;986626]I guess another way of looking at it is if there were no uncapped year, we would have been screwed anyway because we'd have been stuck with all those horrible contracts (that we dumped in the uncapped year).[/quote]

I've asked this before: Has anyone added up the benefit to our cap numbers by dumping the Haynesworth contract etc? I just wonder what real net penalty (if any) we incurred when all is said and done...

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

The real net penalty would be more than numbers, it would have to include the

(1) last minute notice before FA which prevented us from advance planning
(2) forcing us to take it all up front instead of over a few years as we would have done w/o uncapped year

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=ethat001;986756]The real net penalty would be more than numbers, it would have to include the

(1) last minute notice before FA which prevented us from advance planning
(2) forcing us to take it all up front instead of over a few years as we would have done w/o uncapped year[/quote]

True, but over time we would have incurred the full cap hit. I was just trying to understand whether the penalty exceeds the full effect of the contract dump in dollars and cents.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

If our cap penalty was wiped out, wouldn't that mean that the other teams would have to give up the $800K or so cap space they got to make the overall cap of the NFL stay the same?

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=SCRedskinsFan;986763]True, but over time we would have incurred the full cap hit. I was just trying to understand whether the penalty exceeds the full effect of the contract dump in dollars and cents.[/quote]According to this article [URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/23/collusion-suit-directly-resulted-from-redskins-cowboys-cap-penalties/"] LINK[/URL], we spent over $225 Million. ($123+$102) The salary cap for 2009 was $128 mil. So yeah, the $36 mil penalty isn't as much as we "overspent" in the uncapped year.

Still, springing the penalty on the literal eve of free agency was a dick move by Goodell/Mara that cost us beyond dollars.

I think we still came out ahead, but we shouldn't have been penalized in the first place. In a just world, the penalty doesn't stick, and Danny and Jerrah get to sit back and laugh as owners that depend on revenue sharing try to figure out how to stay afloat while the NFL loses billions in a collusion lawsuit to the NFLPA. And all the fingers point at Mara for causing this disaster.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I would think Dan and Jerra are are not very forgiving sort of fellas'. If I were involved in their teams cap penalties, I would be watchin' my respective ass.....
Like that Giants guy......
kicking they're ass out of the playoffs must feel good to Dan...

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=HailGreen28;986773]According to this article [URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/23/collusion-suit-directly-resulted-from-redskins-cowboys-cap-penalties/"] LINK[/URL], we spent over $225 Million. ($123+$102) The salary cap for 2009 was $128 mil. So yeah, the $36 mil penalty isn't as much as we "overspent" in the uncapped year.

Still, springing the penalty on the literal eve of free agency was a dick move by Goodell/Mara that cost us beyond dollars.

I think we still came out ahead, but we shouldn't have been penalized in the first place. In a just world, the penalty doesn't stick, and Danny and Jerrah get to sit back and laugh as owners that depend on revenue sharing try to figure out how to stay afloat while the NFL loses billions in a collusion lawsuit to the NFLPA. And all the fingers point at Mara for causing this disaster.[/quote]


Agree, and thanks for the numbers...

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

Not gonna happen

[url=http://redskins.espn980.com/bloggers/chris-russell/item/822-do-the-redskins-have-any-$hot?]Do the Redskins have any $hot?[/url]

[quote]He says the only thing the Redskins can really do, is file a lawsuit against the National Football League, a strategy the person said was highly unlikely, “I can’t imagine they would do that.”

The way the Redskins and possibly the Cowboys would go about that, is to file a lawsuit in state or federal court, because the arbitration angle is dead.

The problems associated with a lawsuit of that magnitude is that according to the league’s constitution, the loser of the battle would pay all fees and could be counter-sued for “conduct detrimental to the league.”

The source described a decision to do this as a “thermo-nuclear” choice and strongly suggested that the Redskins avoid that route.

The same person also said that the only way he could think of to make this reversal take place, short of filing a lawsuit – would be to get an amendment to the league’s collective bargaining agreement. How likely is that and getting such a move past key executives like John Mara of the New York Giants? Extremely unlikely in another ESPN 980 sources thought process.

The main source did allow something that I thought was particularly interesting, by saying [B]the NFL “amended the CBA to (bleep) these teams"[/B] before, which is why the league’s management committee was able to negotiate a cut throat deal with the NFLPA, in the person’s eyes.
[/quote]

Part of me thinks we should sue the NFL and NFLPA. Not that it would help us, but just to make a point.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

What I never understood was if the Redskins restructured contracts in an uncapped year to gain some sort of advantage over other teams, how much of an advantage would we have? Uncapped year or not, a team should be able to restructure contracts if it wants.....

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;988982]What I never understood was if the Redskins restructured contracts in an uncapped year to gain some sort of advantage over other teams, how much of an advantage would we have? Uncapped year or not, a team should be able to restructure contracts if it wants.....[/quote]

They were looking out for the cheap owners that wanted to save money and instead of dropping loads like Danny and Jerry did. I am of mind that I believe most owners would rather profit than win.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=GoSkins!;986468]I have been thinking this same thing ever since the Giants were watching the Redskins and Cowboys battle for the NFC EAST crown. Mara forced the Redskins to be fiscally conservative and utilize more young, hungry players along with re-signing key team members from the year before.

Kind of ironic huh?[/quote]

I think that was part of the plan 3 yrs back when Shanahan and company took over the team. The 18 mil hit hurt sign better quality younger players if anything.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=NC_Skins;989011]They were looking out for the cheap owners that wanted to save money and instead of dropping loads like Danny and Jerry did. I am of mind that I believe most owners would rather profit than win.[/quote]

I don't really think thats the case. There are alot of ways for people who are already fithly stinking richt to make even more money. But these guys chose to own an NFL team. They know theyre going to make money, but they want to do it in a manner that allows them to win something. So i think all NFL owners are driven to have a successful team that wins.

I do think that alot of owners, due to a number of factors (market size, their own limitations in coming up with ways to generate revenue, etc.) have a more limited budget to work with. They simply can't afford to spend as much money and make an acceptable profit margin. I mean, if mike brown (cinci) or shahid khan (jags) spent money like Daniel Snyder and Jerry Jones, the franchises would go bankrupt.... come to think of it, that might not be a bad thing.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

This is fantastic news.. especially because with the holes we need filled( Safety,Cornerback,WR,RT ) there are some very good free agents available.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=RGIII10/ALMO46;989858]This is fantastic news.. especially because with the holes we need filled( Safety,Cornerback,WR,RT ) there are some very good free agents available.[/quote]

Don't get too excited, we're probably not getting money back.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

It sounds to me like we will get most or all of it back. We should! an uncapped year means you should be able to do what you want as far as spending , thjere was no guidelines to suggest different. It's totally unfair

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

John Clayton:

Venkat in Baltimore noted how much the Dallas Cowboys are over the cap and wonders if the team can appeal to Judge David Doty to get their $5 million of lost cap room back. The case is closed, and the Cowboys can't appeal to Doty because the NFL Players Association signed off on the penalty. The Cowboys lost $10 million of cap room over a two-year period. The Redskins lost $36 million. Even though both teams raised complaints, they have no chance of overturning the decision.

[url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/8843814/nfl-mailbag-running-qbs-leg-now]NFL mailbag -- Running QBs have leg up, for now - ESPN[/url]

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

Someone needs to change this title. We are not going to get anything back.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

if true, this is fantastic and unexpected news. #HTTR

[QUOTE=Mechanix544;989905]Someone needs to change this title. We are not going to get anything back.[/QUOTE]


agreed




[QUOTE=Big C;990049]if true, this is fantastic and unexpected news. #HTTR[/QUOTE]

like Mechanix said. the thread title is overly optimistic.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;990073]agreed






like Mechanix said. [B]the thread title is overly optimistic[/B].[/quote]

More like delusional IMO.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=53Fan;986092]That would be fantastic! I can see good players really wanting to come here now and not just for the paycheck. Finally! It would be great to have the cap space to sign them.[/quote]

Last I heard because of last years penalty we are right at or slightly over the CAP this year due to all the player raises that are due. The Skins will have to rework contracts just to get below and then rework or cut for the second 18 mill penalty.

If the league drops the second 18 mill maybe we can finagle some contracts to be able to pick up 1 or 2 needed spots.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I will always think the penalty was BS, for both us and the Cowpukes. That side, our FO has already moved on, and achieved an above average off-season (last year) with the penalty.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I say we tell the NFL to kiss our ass and just ignore the penalty. What could they do?

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=firstdown;990248]I say we tell the NFL to kiss our ass and just ignore the penalty. What could they do?[/quote]

Well a lot. Our only options are

a) eat it
b) argue and convince the owners to relent
c) sue

A is most likely to end up happening. B is probably what they're trying but almost assuredly won't work. C is the nuclear option that might work but has a ton of downside

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=firstdown;990248]I say we tell the NFL to kiss our ass and just ignore the penalty. What could they do?[/quote]I'm guessing they could keep us from signing anybody, drafted or FA.

We need the FO's approval (and player's union approval?) to sign contracts. I don't think any player's going to sign with us on otherwise uncertain terms. And risk their own status in the organization when they could sign safe deals with other teams.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=FRPLG;990251]Well a lot. Our only options are

a) eat it
b) argue and convince the owners to relent
c) sue

A is most likely to end up happening. B is probably what they're trying but almost assuredly won't work. C is the nuclear option that might work but has a ton of downside[/quote]

Yep.

Option C bites the hand that feeds and thus is almost unthinkable, as just as it might be.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I still don't the title of this thread. It should be more like a discussion on the cap penalty. Anyway, when I look at the cap numbers I don't see it hurting us like the experts say. It seems to me, that if there is a guy we want, we just use the subsequent years to charge the signing bonus. I think we have plenty of room to maneuver. We can save 8 Million cutting Hall, 4 Million cutting Moss, 4 million Cutting Wilson, 1 million cutting Jammal brown, and there are others that could be cut. There are a few that could be restructured. Like Trent Williams. Say we want a guy that will cost 10 million a year for five years, the way I understand it, we could give him a nine million dollars roster bonus and charge it to the next four years. Making him count ford 12.2 million the next four years. It seems to me that we have a fairly cheap roster now, and can afford to make the next year a little heavy. Especially, since the cap number should begin to skyrocket in the next two years. I would like to here if I am correct from some of our cap guru's.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;990256]I still don't the title of this thread. It should be more like a discussion on the cap penalty. Anyway, when I look at the cap numbers I don't see it hurting us like the experts say. It seems to me, that if there is a guy we want, we just use the subsequent years to charge the signing bonus. I think we have plenty of room to maneuver. We can save 8 Million cutting Hall, 4 Million cutting Moss, 4 million Cutting Wilson, 1 million cutting Jammal brown, and there are others that could be cut. There are a few that could be restructured. Like Trent Williams. Say we want a guy that will cost 10 million a year for five years, the way I understand it, we could give him a nine million dollars roster bonus and charge it to the next four years. Making him count ford 12.2 million the next four years. It seems to me that we have a fairly cheap roster now, and can afford to make the next year a little heavy. Especially, since the cap number should begin to skyrocket in the next two years. I would like to here if I am correct from some of our cap guru's.[/quote]
It hurts us, in the sense that we can't go splurge in FA and get unlimited players that way, but as you showed, there are definitely ways to manage the cap wisely. As long as we don't push a lot into future years, then we still ought to be able to sign a couple of solid FA's + keep the guys we want. Without know how, I would imagine (or hope) BA is looking at the numbers along this line: 9mill this year (again keep in mind had we "played by the rules" we would have had some cap impact from Haynesworth so this should just be looked at like dead cap in my mind), and 4.5mill "dead cap/penalty" for the next two years. We might not get every player, but as long as the NFL/NFLPA don't pull anymore last minute hijinx then I expect MS/BA will be more than able to put a comprehensive approach to the draft/FA period of the off-season.

Firstdown, the league sets the cap, and will not let us go over it. Therefore if we ignored the penalty, the league would not approve any new contracts, and if we were over the calculated cap, then they would impose a cash fine against the team every day it is over. I am pretty sure Dan Snyder is not going to pay a daily fine in lieu of restructuring a few contracts and managing the cap appropriately.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

The NFLPA is Appealing Doty's ruling. From the article... don't expect a different answer cause apparently the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit is Union friendly and they figure the court will rule for the NFL and not change the penalties.

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/31/nflpa-appeals-judge-doty-ruling-on-collusion-claim/]NFLPA appeals Judge Doty ruling on collusion claim | ProFootballTalk[/url]

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I still don't see how its legal that we lost the cap space, and how people are ruling against us.... but whatever.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Gmanc711;992355]I still don't see how its legal that we lost the cap space, and how people are ruling against us.... but whatever.[/quote]

Totally agree with you.

Rules were in place
Rules expired
Two teams took advantage of what all the teams could have done
New rules agreed to and signed
Addendum to the rules agreed to and signed
Punishment/Fines handed out

Crazy. Usually in most cases when a contract expires then there is nothing to hold anyone accountable to in that expired contract. How are you going to make an Addendum, make it retroactive, then punish two teams for violating something that was not in place at the time of said violation?

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Gmanc711;992355]I still don't see how its legal that we lost the cap space, and how people are ruling against us.... but whatever.[/quote]

Basically, all 32 owners give some power to the league "for the greater good", and if the executive body decrees something everyone has to deal with it. For the Skins to get the "proper" decision they would have to go to court against 30 other owners, and have the judge find them guilty of collusion. In a vacuum, maybe you do that, but in reality, that would be like giving the NFLPA a blank check in the next round of CBA talks, and no owner is going to risk the golden goose, especially not for a 1 year(at this point) cap hit of 18million dollars.

When you think in pure percentages, would you risk your multi billion dollar enterprise for about a relatively easily mitigated/accepted penalty of about 10% of your cap space.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=SBXVII;992361]Totally agree with you.

Rules were in place
Rules expired
[B]Two teams took advantage of what all the teams could have done[/B]
New rules agreed to and signed
Addendum to the rules agreed to and signed
Punishment/Fines handed out

Crazy. Usually in most cases when a contract expires then there is nothing to hold anyone accountable to in that expired contract. How are you going to make an Addendum, make it retroactive, then punish two teams for violating something that was not in place at the time of said violation?[/quote]

The thing is, all 32 teams were told NOT to use the uncapped year to dump bad contracts and were warned (in writing) that there would be penalties for teams that did. 28 teams followed that direction and 4 teams were penalized for not colluding. The skins and cowboys did this to an extreme degree, so they were penalized most.

It sucks, and its not "right" but it is what it is. If there's any consolation, its the fact that the skins would be carrng more than 18MM in dead cap in 2012 and 2013 seasons if they hadnt broken the rule. Ultimately, the penalties suck, but we're better off than we would have been if there had been a salary cap.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

The Doty decision ruled against the NFLPA - not the Redskins. The cap penalty against the Skins could have been evidence in their case of collusion against the NFL [I]if[/I] they had (as part of the new agreement) waived their rights to sue over past acts of collusion - even if unknown.

As CREd said, the Skins could sue on the other owners on their own behalf. They won't.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;992363]Basically, all 32 owners give some power to the league "for the greater good", and if the executive body decrees something everyone has to deal with it. For the Skins to get the "proper" decision they would have to go to court against 30 other owners, and have the judge find them guilty of collusion. In a vacuum, maybe you do that, but in reality, that would be like giving the NFLPA a blank check in the next round of CBA talks, and no owner is going to risk the golden goose, especially not for a 1 year(at this point) cap hit of 18million dollars.

When you think in pure percentages, would you risk your multi billion dollar enterprise for about a relatively easily mitigated/accepted penalty of about 10% of your cap space.[/quote]

Didn't the league risk it in the first place, by penalizing us. Snyder isn't gonna do anything, they know he won't go nuclear.

Re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

Are we still talking about this? The cap money is good as gone. It's not coming back. Not now, not later, but never. It would take Danny and Jerry killing their cash cow (we call it the NFL) in order to get any sort of justice out of this. The bottom line is, Danny and Jerry (or any other owner) care more about making money, than they do about principles or winning.