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[quote=firstdown;1009239]Maybe smallpox and other things that cause mass deaths was gods way of removing the weak from the gene pool. Science f*&ked it up and thats why we have so many sick people all the time. I mean if science was so great why do people have more problems then ever before?[/quote]

So God is a murderer?

Seems legit.

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I assumed FD was taking the piss, despite the lack of LOL or /SARC

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[quote=RedskinRat;1009232]The Universe is huge, there must be a god.

**** sake.........

And I've yet to meet a theist who is dumb enough to dismiss science, just a few who are obviously less thrilled with anything scientific that upsets their worldview.

CRR, you have an odd outlook, but it amuses me so please continue.[/quote]

<*sigh*>

atleast this is all in a separate pic thread.

yay.

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[quote=RedskinRat;1009246]I assumed FD was taking the piss, despite the lack of LOL or /SARC[/quote]

You never can tell with some folks.

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[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_En5vG2QGHL8/SiM0GQGqzYI/AAAAAAAAAjQ/lGmG4QITwFQ/s1600/Christians%2BKnow.jpg[/IMG]

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[quote=RedskinRat;1009231]Science disproves religion.[/quote]

Science [I]disproves[/I] religion? Oh please, let's see the theorem and proof. As always - your religious devotion to science amuses me.

And as always you mistake the argument: The universe is infinite, thus, by definition, proof that science can prove all is impossible.

As CRR stated, given the infiniteness of the universe (both great and small) to claim it is knowable by humanity is the height of hubris and certainly not borne out by anything science has shown us. There is and always will be a gap between what we know and what there is to know - if science shows us anything it is that gap is larger than we could possible imagine.

Your faith in science, however, appears to prevent you from acknowledging such a gap even exists. To me, for someone who has such a religious devotion to rational thought, the extreme hubris of your position in light of the infinite is mind bogglingly irrational. Figuratively speaking, you are not even a speck of sand in the Sahara and yet you [I]appear[/I] to claim you can count and name the snowflakes in the Arctic.

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[quote=RedskinRat;1009232]The Universe is huge, there must be a god.

**** sake.........[/quote]

The Universe is huge, there can't be a God.

**** sake.........

And I've yet to meet an atheist dumb enough to deny their faith in science, just a few who are obviously less thrilled that having such faith upsets their worldview.

RR, you have an odd outlook, but it amuses me so please continue.

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[quote=Mattyk;1009245]So God is a murderer?

Seems legit.[/quote]

No he allows nature to take its course.

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Double post deleted.

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[quote=RedskinRat;1009231]We have far greater minds now taking the side of science against religion due to the cowing of bullying theists than ever before.[/quote]

Yes. Einstein was such an intellectual coward. Oh for a decent meme generator:

"More smart people agree with me, so I must be right".

-- The scientific method at work!!

-- B/c the truth of the universe can be found by taking a vote.

-- The mating cry of the modern-day Red Crested Smug Atheist.

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[quote=firstdown;1009259]No he allows nature to take its course.[/quote]

Didn't he create nature?

JR, are you suggesting that religion has always championed science?

Please bear in mind that science is in its infancy still

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[quote=Mattyk;1009265]Didn't he create nature?[/quote]

Yes.

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;1009263]
"More smart people agree with me, so Imust be right". [/QUOTE]

Are you comfortable when you realize that all the dumb people support your position or when it's the smart people agreeing with you?

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[quote=RedskinRat;1009269]JR, are you suggesting that religion has always championed science?

Please bear in mind that science is in its infancy still[/quote]

Has religion [I][B]always[/B][/I] "championed" science? Of course not. Duh. At the same time, as is your wont, you ask a pretty broad and oversimplified question given the course of history. I could just as easily receive the same answer if I were to ask "Do you believe religion has always persecuted science?". The real answer to the interplay between religion and science is much more nuanced and not subject to a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

For me, I believe God champions science because God is truth and science -and the scientific method - seek truth. Thus, for a religion, any religion, to serve its purpose - helping us find our path to God, it [I]must[/I] champion science. After all, and in the context you appear to using it, "Religion" is simply a human creation that (1) presupposes the existence of a diety; and (2) attempts to assists humans in understanding that diety. Religion, in its truest form, seeks nothing but the truth and uses science as it tool to do so. Has "Religion" always been true to this ideal? Again -- Duh. No.

Ultimately, "Religion" is a human construct that is subject to corruption both temporal and spiritual. What better way for those who crave power to acheive it than by claiming to have secret knowledge and the keys to "life, universe and everything"? On the other hand, for those seeking to avoid the harsh vagaries of the world, what better opiate for the masses than a set of simple absolutes handed down from on high that give them a sense of purpose as they navigate the grey areas of their lives? Sometimes, temporal or spiritual corruption isn't needed for Religion to fail in "championing" science - sometimes well intentioned, finite, humans are just stupid and fail to see their own hypocrisy. In any of these cases, science - or any search for truth differing from the norm - will be discouraged b/c it would threaten those in power, a person's feeling of security/self-worth or their well-intentioned beliefs.

In history, religion has both championed and persecuted science. Some of the greateast periods of intellectual growth occurred under the auspices of religious growth. The European Reneassiance and subsequent Reformation in the 1400-1700's and the Islamic Golden Age of ~700-1200's flourished in and were the result of religious cultures "championing" science. I would suggest that the Jesuits have long "championed" seeking the truth through science. At the same time, history is rife with "Religion" stifling intellectual growth - the Inquisition and Wahhabism to name but two. I am sure you have the list memorized. Ulitimately, Religion is what we make of it. So, depending on the who and when, "Religion" has both championed and attacked science.

For me, orthodox (not fundamentalist or literalist) Christianity, at its core, champions science, the scientific method and an unquenchable thirst for better, deeper, more accurate knowledge of the Universe and, thus, "champions" a greater understanding of the God, the Truth or the "Great I Am". If I did not believe it to do so, I would not follow it.

[ I was an atheist throughout my 20's - in part b/c I knew to many literalist/fundamentalist Christians who insisted I stop thinking. I accepted no truth but the finite provable reality - believing no truth but scientific truth could be "real". Essentially, as so many before and since have done, I demanded "Show me the nail holes so I may place my fingers in Jesus's pierced, resurrected fingers, then [I]maybe[/I] I will believe" - although, in truth, I probably would not even then. Ultimately, my journey to the Infinite [I]began[/I] with a sign that said "Christ came to take your sins, not your minds." ]

So, in an vast oversimplification of the above (which in itself was a vast oversimplification of a few thousand years of theology):
Religion seeks God.
God is truth.
Science reveals truth.
Thus, for a religion to serves its purpose it must champion science.
That it often does not, is due to the inevitible fallibilty of humanity and its infinitesimble finiteness.

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A little light heartedness

[IMG]https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/944280_10152842442625092_1946706919_n.jpg[/IMG]

Back to your regularly scheduled debate.

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[quote=RedskinRat;1009273]Are you comfortable when you realize that all the dumb people support your position or when it's the smart people agreeing with you?[/quote]

My "comfort" is not dependent upon the intelligence of those who agree or disagree with me. Rather, regardless of where it is hidden, I seek the truth and question everyone as to the justification for their beliefs. My "comfort" comes from simply [I]seeking[/I] the truth.

The world, and history, are rife with very smart fools and extremely intelligent evil people.

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[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/BC2aeYd.jpg[/IMG]

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[quote=Mattyk;1009265]Didn't he create nature?[/quote]

[IMG]http://www.atheist-meme.com/resources/antitheist%20douglas%20adams.jpg[/IMG]

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[quote=JoeRedskin;1009282]For me<SNIP>[/quote]

There's your problem.

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[quote=RedskinRat;1009293]There's your problem.[/quote]

Wow. Just wow.

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the universe is infinite so that proves god?

i dunno, i can procedurally generate game content thanks to my PC (textures, objects, worlds etc) throw in a random seed, and off it goes. artificial intelligence has been "gene-seeded" from nothing (give it a problem, have it do random things, anything that helps get the goal is kept and try it again).

there's also a lot of symmetry between water/electrical/light based system (plumbing has the equivalent of a transistor for example) and rays/waves, so maybe that's just the extrapolation of micro forces/rulesets (physics/mechanics)...

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[quote=JoeRedskin;1009297]Wow. Just wow.[/quote]

Oh, come on Joe! You're saying the way religion works for you is 'X'.

Science works the same way for everyone. No need for mystics to interpret it. You may want to ask a scientist but a scientific fact is always the same.

Wow yourself.

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What idiot thought this would be a good job for a US Marine?

[img]http://a.abcnews.com/images/ABC_Univision/ap_obama_umbrella_130516_wg.jpg[/img]

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[quote=Alvin Walton;1009301]What idiot thought this would be a good job for a US Marine?

[IMG]http://a.abcnews.com/images/ABC_Univision/ap_obama_umbrella_130516_wg.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

If you have no respect for the Imperialist forces of the U.S. I'm sure it's a wonderful idea. Probably not the first POTUS but why can't they have an intern do it?

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[quote=Mattyk;1009265]Didn't he create nature?[/quote]

He also created boobs and ________!!!!!!

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FD, you'd need to post evidence in the form of a picture.

Here's a quote from Carl. I like Carl, he seems cool:

[IMG]https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/971335_10151586086052418_316301820_n.jpg[/IMG]

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[IMG]https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/945236_10151599778000155_1279316173_n.jpg[/IMG]

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[img]http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/524800_366643250122826_1481870422_n.jpg[/img]

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[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/k4CaoN1.jpg[/IMG]

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[URL="http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/p/D/bush_pope.jpg"][IMG]http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/7/p/D/bush_pope.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[B][COLOR=#0066cc][/COLOR][/B]

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[quote=Mattyk;1009343][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/k4CaoN1.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

lol

We know their are no gay aliens on Jupiter or the rings would be this color:

[img]http://melbournism.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/rainbow-flag.jpg[/img]

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[quote=firstdown;1009321]He also created boobs and ________!!!!!![/quote]

Way to bring your A game FD.

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[quote=JoeRedskin;1009364]Way to bring your A game FD.[/quote]

more like his DD game

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[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bh0el22SmUA/UZWkExvz54I/AAAAAAAAbII/1ck-PoEXO8A/s400/obama+umbrella+reagan.jpg[/img]

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[quote=RedskinRat;1009246]I assumed FD was taking the piss, despite the lack of LOL or /SARC[/quote]

So you don't think nature has its way of removing the weak from the masses?

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[quote=RedskinRat;1009300]Oh, come on Joe! You're saying the way religion works for you is 'X'.

Science works the same way for everyone. No need for mystics to interpret it. You may want to ask a scientist but a scientific fact is always the same.

Wow yourself.[/quote]

Then to be clear for the overtly obtuse. In response to your question:

[quote=RedskinRat;1009269]JR, are you suggesting that religion has always championed science?[/quote]

I stated:

[quote=JoeRedskin;1009282]<snip> The ... answer to the interplay between religion and science is much more nuanced and not subject to a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

Ultimately, "Religion" is a human construct that is subject to corruption both temporal and spiritual. ...

In history, religion has both championed and persecuted science.<snip>[/quote]

While true that science "works the same way for everyone", I simply do not share your belief that all the universe's questions can be or can potentially be answered by science or, more specifically, "the scientific method".

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[quote=That Guy;1009299]the universe is infinite so that proves god?[/quote]

No one and nothing "proves" the existence of God in the manner you seek it.
No right minded christian would assert as such. Belief in God is a leap of faith, for some, the leap is a manageable distance. For others, it is a cavernous distance that only a fool would attempt.

[quote=That Guy;1009299]i dunno, i can procedurally generate game content thanks to my PC (textures, objects, worlds etc) throw in a random seed, and off it goes. artificial intelligence has been "gene-seeded" from nothing (give it a problem, have it do random things, anything that helps get the goal is kept and try it again).

there's also a lot of symmetry between water/electrical/light based system (plumbing has the equivalent of a transistor for example) and rays/waves, so maybe that's just the extrapolation of micro forces/rulesets (physics/mechanics)...[/quote]

You may be right. The universe may just be running on a set of incredibly complex extrapolations from an original point. However (1) Such a theory is just as unprovable as the existence of God; and (2) The question of origin remains - how were the extrapolations set in motion? Did they spring from nothingness? Was a blank universe "programed" somehow? Even if running on giant infinitely continous "loop" program, how was the universe set in motion?

As to the origin, Atheists, as I understand it, assert either (1) nothing came from nothing and eventually we will be able to prove it; or (2) no f'ing clue, but, however, it happened it is or will be explainable by the scientific method.

Theists simply say - no f'ing clue but it was the result of a creator who's ulitmate and entire being cannot be proven by the scientific method.

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[quote=JoeRedskin;1009389]
No right minded christian would assert as such..[/quote]

There is no such being as a 'right minded theist', you're not right minded if you believe in such things.

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[quote=JoeRedskin;1009389]
You may be right. The universe may just be running on a set of incredibly complex extrapolations from an original point. However (1) Such a theory is just as unprovable as the existence of God; and (2) The question of origin remains - how were the extrapolations set in motion? Did they spring from nothingness? Was a blank universe "programed" somehow? Even if running on giant infinitely continous "loop" program, how was the universe set in motion?
[/quote]

Check out the Smolin Solution.