Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=firstdown;1035336]To a point pilots are armed but with detection equipment and procedures to keep guns off planes in the first place.[/quote]

Well there you go. After 9/11 we didn't arm the pilots, we put in procedures to try to keep weapons off the plane in the first place.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035328]Hilarious! Reminds me of that time someone mentioned having an intelligent debut.

[B]Serious question: How would you go about ridding the world of weapons?
[/B]
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk[/quote]

The same way that Australia did.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=firstdown;1035336]To a point pilots are armed but with detection equipment and procedures to keep guns off planes in the first place.[/quote]

Finally you see the light. Planes are safer because there are no guns allowed. Eliminating guns is the answer, as you yourself have argued.

[QUOTE=Lotus;1035343]The same way that Australia did.[/QUOTE]

With the same corresponding increase in violent crime? You must be one of those wealthy elitist types that won't be exposed to the resultant carnage? Good for you!

[QUOTE=Mattyk;1035341]Well there you go. After 9/11 we didn't arm the pilots, we put in procedures to try to keep weapons off the plane in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Sky Marshals, but please go on.

[QUOTE=Mattyk;1035337]I'm obviously joking around. [/QUOTE]

We were already ordered NOT to partake of japery by GiantOne.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035347]Sky Marshals, but please go on.[/quote]

Aren't sky Marshalls basically cops?

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035347]Sky Marshals, but please go on.[/quote]

On every plane right? Sure.

Sky marshals are like putting an officer in a school aka trained professionals which I don't have a problem with, vs arming teachers, or pilots.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035346]With the same corresponding increase in violent crime? You must be one of those wealthy elitist types that won't be exposed to the resultant carnage? Good for you![/quote]

Is there a proven direct correlation?

[QUOTE=Mattyk;1035350]On every plane right? Sure.

Sky marshals are like putting an officer in a school aka trained professionals which I don't have a problem with, vs arming teachers, or pilots.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Well documented, too.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035346]With the same corresponding increase in violent crime? You must be one of those wealthy elitist types that won't be exposed to the resultant carnage? Good for you![/quote]

You apparently are not aware that [I]ad hominen[/I] arguments against the person are not logically valid arguments. The only arguments that you have made in this thread is that those who want to reduce guns are either hippies or wealthy elitists (which, by the way, I am not).

These arguments of yours are logically fallacious while they also do not reflect reality.

Please offer a real argument with real data.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=firstdown;1035246]Funny you call me a gun nut and I don't even own a gun.[/quote]



Where did I ever say you have to own one to be one ?

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035358]Yes. Well documented, too.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk[/quote]

Links?

Everything I'm reading says their presence is rare (and usually only on higher risk destinations) as there simply aren't enough of them to cover all flights.

[url=http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_there_a_federal_air_marshal_on_every_flight]Is there a federal air marshal on every flight[/url]

[url=http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/airport-security8.htm]HowStuffWorks "How Airport Security Works"[/url]

[url=http://www.omg-facts.com/Interesting/About-5-Of-U-S-Flights-Have-Undercover-A/52884]About 5% of U.S. flights have undercover air marshals. - OMG Facts[/url]

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/03/25/siu.air.marshals/]Sources: Air marshals missing from almost all flights - CNN.com[/url]

[QUOTE=Lotus;1035359]Please offer a real argument with real data.[/QUOTE]

I'm not repeating myself, you can go back and reread the various gun threads, spend some time with John Lott's book I cite as a validating source, maybe check his blog.

Oh, and be sure to register any Sasquatch you've discovered.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035364]I'm not repeating myself, you can go back and reread the various gun threads, spend some time with John Lott's book I cite as a validating source, maybe check his blog.

[B]Oh, and be sure to register any Sasquatch you've discovered[/B].[/quote]

Gotta admit, i did lol at this.

Rat, why does everyone have to be an elitest or hippy who want resonable gun control? I just think the unfortuanately some dont deserve the right to bear arms and some arms should be unbearable because we as a nation abuse these powerful weapons too often.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=Chico23231;1035367]Gotta admit, i did lol at this.

Rat, why does everyone have to be an elitest or hippy who want resonable gun control? I just think the unfortuanately some dont deserve the right to bear arms and some arms should be unbearable because we as a nation abuse these powerful weapons too often.[/quote]

People often resort to insults when they've got nothing else.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

People need to see this .......


[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GztAoqje0gI#t=26]Kids & Guns - YouTube[/url]

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035346]With the same corresponding increase in violent crime? You must be one of those wealthy elitist types that won't be exposed to the resultant carnage? Good for you![/quote]

One could reduce gun violence by taking guns off the street as a first step. Then one can tackle the violent crime.

Burglary is less of a trauma than mass shootings of kids. But if you would like to argue that you would prefer to have masses of dead kids than burglaries, go ahead. However, if you are not willing to make this argument, then you logically must recognize that reducing mass gun violence against kids is a priority and that the Australian solution responds to this.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

Most teachers have more education then cops but some find it hard that if one desired they could take traing to safely carry a gun. I also hear about hitting others but I would guess that 100% of the other people would be getting the hell out of they way and ducking from the assult in the first place.

You guys do know that Utah allows teachers to carry and I think they have been for 12 yrs now.

[QUOTE=Lotus;1035379]Burglary is less of a trauma than mass shootings of kids.[/QUOTE]

Are burglaries counted as violent crime? No. That makes your argument invalid.

[QUOTE=Lotus;1035379] But if you would like to argue that you would prefer to have masses of dead kids than burglaries, go ahead. [/QUOTE]

Ah, the 'Pretentious Douche' school of rhetoric! Go milk a Unicorn.

p.s. I'm from the 'E Cartman' school, myself.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/27/us/utah-teachers-weapons/index.html]200 Utah educators take class on handling, having concealed gun in class - CNN.com[/url]



Anger over map of gun permit owners "Guns have no place in our schools. Period," Dennis Van Roekel and Randi Weingarten, the presidents of the two biggest U.S. teachers' unions, said in a joint statement. "We must do everything we can to reduce the possibility of any gunfire in schools, and concentrate on ways to keep all guns off school property and ensure the safety of children and school employees.

But to Clark Aposhian -- president of the Utah Shooting Sports Council, which ran Thursday's event in West Valley City -- it's a matter of giving teachers, school administrators, janitors and others the same rights, when licensed, to carry a concealed weapon in their place of work as others have.

"What we're talking about is not arming teachers," he said, contending that the approach of locking doors and hiding behind a desk "just isn't doing it anymore." "We're simply not taking away that ability of lawful self-defense within a school."

For 12 years, Utah educators have been able to do just that, even if only a small fraction do bring guns into their workplace. The state's concealed weapon law allows for a person to have, on his person or in a secure lockbox, a weapon inside a school, Aposhian said.

If they do have a loaded gun, their principals, school districts, and local police departments wouldn't even know, given the restrictions in place limiting who is told about who has a concealed weapons permit.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035387]Are burglaries counted as violent crime? No. That makes your argument invalid.



Ah, the 'Pretentious Douche' school of rhetoric! Go milk a Unicorn.

p.s. I'm from the 'E Cartman' school, myself.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk[/quote]

Once again, instead of engaging in reason, you engage in personal attack. As Matty indicated, such is the resort of those who have no argument.

Please bring a rational argument armed with data to the table or admit that you have no such argument.

[QUOTE=Lotus;1035391]Once again, instead of engaging in reason, you engage in personal attack.[/QUOTE]
Simply answer my question. Is burglary a violent crime?

If not, which we both agree it's not, why are you using a deliberately skewed measure to underwrite your argument?

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035392]Simply answer my question. Is burglary a violent crime?

If not, which we both agree it's not, why are you using a deliberately skewed measure to underwrite your argument?[/quote]

Yes, I would argue that burglary is a violent crime. That is why I used it as an example. But I am happy to let you have your way and agree that it is not. No problem. You win that one.

So let's use your own example of assault from post 21 and paste it into my challenge:

Assault is less of a trauma than mass shootings of kids. But if you would like to argue that you would prefer to have masses of dead kids than assaults, go ahead. However, if you are not willing to make this argument, then you logically must recognize that reducing mass gun violence against kids is a priority and that the Australian solution responds to this.

So which is worse, assaults or bunches of dead kids?

If you say "dead kids," then you should support the Australian solution, because that is precisely what the Aussies stopped.

[QUOTE=Lotus;1035393] Yes, I would argue that burglary is a violent crime. That is why I used it as an example. [/QUOTE]

The legal definition would prove you wrong.

[QUOTE=Lotus;1035393] But I am happy to let you have your way and agree that it is not. No problem. You win that one.

So let's use your own example of assault from post 21 and paste it into my challenge:

So which is worse, assaults or bunches of dead kids?

[/QUOTE]

Due to the rarity of 'bunches of dead kids' I'll go with 'assault', even though I'd compare it with rape for a more honest discussion.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035395]The legal definition would prove you wrong.



Due to the rarity of 'bunches of dead kids' I'll go with 'assault', even though I'd compare it with rape for a more honest discussion.[/quote]

Fine. You prefer dead kids over a potential marginal rise in assaults. I'm glad that I am not one of your kids.

Notice that the potential marginal rise in assault and rape does not have a clear correlation with the Aussie gun ban, as Matty indicated. But even if I grant that correlation, you still choose dead kids.

Most people would be horrified to make that choice, and the same goes with if we talked about rape. Assault and rape, which are deplorable, happen to individuals, usually adults. Also, in the case of Australia we are talking only about a marginal rise. Conversely, mass shootings, the subject of this thread, involve bunches of people, often kids. And the Aussies basically ended such events.

And if you think that shootings of multiple kids is a "rarity," as you say, I suggest that you read a newspaper. Or just read the title of the thread. It has happened multiple times this year and we are still only in October.

I'll never forget that you argued that more kids should die.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

they actually reduced sky marshall presence on airplanes a long while ago, they were causing more issues than they were worth:
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Air_Marshal_Service]Federal Air Marshal Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]
[url=http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/problems-run-rampant-federal-air-marshal-program-report-article-1.1019199]Problems run rampant through Federal Air Marshal program: reportÂ* - NY Daily News[/url]
[url=http://www.propublica.org/article/air-marshals-undercover-and-under-arrest-1113]Air Marshals: Undercover and Under Arrest - ProPublica[/url]
[url=http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/03/travel/air-marshal-service-probe/]Report on Federal Air Marshal Service paints an unflattering picture - CNN.com[/url]

so those people trying to protect us with their guns on planes are instead using their badges to smuggle cocaine and explosives (and child porn). that sure makes me feel safer!

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

nevermind

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1035405]nevermind[/quote]

Eventually the way I feel anytime I get sucked into one of these threads.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[url=http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NAVY_BASE_SHOOTING?SITE=VARIT&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT]Richmond Times-Dispatch[/url]

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=Lotus;1035398]Fine. You prefer dead kids over a potential marginal rise in assaults. I'm glad that I am not one of your kids.[/quote]

I prefer a *miniscule* possibility of mass murder to the horrendous rise across the board in violent crime afflicted on those in society least able to defend themselves. Here's an article from [URL="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323777204578195470446855466.html"]WSJ[/URL], inculding numbers that can easily be verified.

[I]In 2008, the Australian Institute of Criminology reported a decrease of 9% in homicides and a one-third decrease in armed robbery since the 1990s, but an increase of over [B]40%[/B] in assaults and [B]20%[/B] in sexual assaults.
[/I]
[quote=Lotus;1035398]Notice that the potential marginal rise in assault and rape does not have a clear correlation with the Aussie gun ban, as Matty indicated. But even if I grant that correlation, you still choose dead kids.[/quote]

I choose the rational position of LESS.

[quote=Lotus;1035398]Most people would be horrified to make that choice[/quote]

It was your hysterically hypothetical question, I'm not out there killing kids.

[quote=Lotus;1035398]and the same goes with if we talked about rape. Assault and rape, which are deplorable, happen to individuals, usually adults. [/quote]

What does that mean?

[quote=Lotus;1035398]Also, in the case of Australia we are talking only about a marginal rise.[/quote]

No, YOU'RE talking about marginal, without substantiating that number. Stop telling lies.

[quote=Lotus;1035398]Conversely, mass shootings, the subject of this thread, involve bunches of people, often kids. And the Aussies basically ended such events.[/quote]

You're not very good with numbers, are you? How many people died in the Australian massacre? 35 dead, 21 wounded. Now how many THOUSANDS of people have their lives irrevocably changed because someone bigger, stronger than them imposed themselves violently?

[quote=Lotus;1035398]And if you think that shootings of multiple kids is a "rarity," as you say, I suggest that you read a newspaper. Or just read the title of the thread. It has happened multiple times this year and we are still only in October.[/quote]

Or we could look at the [URL="http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2012/08/no_increase_in_mass_shootings.html"]facts[/URL] with a little bladder control:

[IMG]http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/assets_c/2012/08/Mass%20Shootings%201980-2010-thumb-533x320-79419.jpg[/IMG]

[I]Without minimizing the pain and suffering of the hundreds of who have been victimized in senseless attacks, the facts say clearly that the has been no increase in mass killings, and certainly no epidemic. Occasionally, we have witnessed short-term spikes with several shootings clustering close together in time. [/I]
[I]In the 1980s, we had a flurry of postal shootings, and the 1990s included a half dozen schoolyard massacres. Other than the copycatting reflected in these cases, the clustering of mass murders is nothing more than random timing and sheer coincidence. [/I]


You're far too emotional to discuss the topic, you lack clarity. It must be difficult being as scared as you are so I should cut you some slack.

[quote=Lotus;1035398]I'll never forget that you argued that more kids should die.[/quote]

J/K! You're still the fantasy world dwelling, bed-wetting, hysterical, hyperbole hurling, intellectual pygmy I've grown to love.

Stick to facts and stop making shit up.

p.s Dear Matty, I hope this meets my quota for insults, my style of rhetoric is extremely hostile [SIZE=1](duh!)[/SIZE] as opposed to Lotus' syrup-coated line of utter pus. People are free to ignore the thread, contribute, wade in swinging or sit on the sidelines and laugh.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=Mattyk;1035369]People often resort to insults when they've got nothing else.[/quote]

I resort to insults just cos.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035417]I resort to insults just cos.[/quote]

Cos you've got nothing and acting out like a child is your MO.

Lame.

Sure, its as lame as your well-worn "I was obviously joking" ploy. I have every right to match his chosen method of fact distortion with my method of ridicule.

I couldn't find your post that showed a marginal increase in violent crime in Australia after the gun ban went into effect. Please be kind enough to post it and I'll add a reasoned rebuttal.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1035456]Sure, its as lame as your well-worn "I was obviously joking" ploy. I have every right to match his chosen method of fact distortion with my method of ridicule.

I couldn't find your post that showed a marginal increase in violent crime in Australia after the gun ban went into effect. Please be kind enough to post it and I'll add a reasoned rebuttal.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk[/quote]

And I have every right to ask you to tone down the insults and be a little more respectful of people here.

Calling yourself the irritant of the WP doesn't give you license to be an a-hole.

In my defence, I didn't use profanity, I just highlighted what I observed as personality flaws. Fine, I'll be more respectful.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

I still think many of you are off the mark on how to deal with issues. Even if you take away all guns, there still will be mass murder. Taking away guns is only putting a band-aid on the situation. It's like trying to take away violent video games to combat violence.



Also, would you want to be in a situation where only your government/military was allowed to have weapons? Obviously you all put way too much faith into those corrupt assholes, and should be thinking about big picture of things down the road. Such blind faith has caused a many of people to become slaves.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1035467]I still think many of you are off the mark on how to deal with issues. Even if you take away all guns, there still will be mass murder. Taking away guns is only putting a band-aid on the situation. It's like trying to take away violent video games to combat violence.



Also, would you want to be in a situation where only your government/military was allowed to have weapons? Obviously you all put way too much faith into those corrupt assholes, and should be thinking about big picture of things down the road. Such blind faith has caused a many of people to become slaves.[/quote]

I think a lot of people here, except for a few, believe that taking or adding guns won't solve anything. There are always a few on each extreme.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

who's saying take away all the guns? i'm not. it's silly that fighting strawmen is always the kneejerk response.

it's also probably part of the reason why these threads are pretty pointless here.

Re: Another school Shooting Nevada
 

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/10/25/the-stark-divide-over-guns-laws-in-two-charts/"]The Great Divide - Gun Laws[/URL]

One word: Split.

[IMG]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/files/2013/10/s58y-j4qekuj_d8kur9lsq.png[/IMG]