Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Mattyk;1052553]Well this got dumb really quick.[/quote]

It's good to see Allen has supporters and detractors.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=over the mountain;1052557]a good executive in my book means knowing his place in the chain of command.

i really liked how bruce came out and laid things straight yesterday with a seemingly clear and firm game plan. I am worried that as a good executive he will submit to his boss who no one can deny likes to put his hand in the pot and feel like he is doing more than writing checks.

surprised bruce came out and gave mike the verbal middle finger .. i do wonder if that was to please DS by taking a clear shot at mike.

[B]i really dont get why we are knocking shanahan's draft picks. the worst draft pick was a 3rd round OL guy ..... i really liked the roster he put together under the circumstances. [/B]


if DS does meddle i am going to be seriously seriously pissed off. this structure and environment as it stands now is ripe for DS meddling.

i think bruce is more a yes man vs sticking up to DS and it scares me[/quote]

Is there really much here to like?

2010: Trent Williams and Perry Riley, the other 4 picks are long gone.
2011: Kerrigan, Jenkins, Hankerson, Helu, meh to the rest.
2012: RG3, Morris, Cousins, the rest are mostly weekly inactives.
2013: Amerson, Reed, no impact from the rest.

11 guys worthing noting in 4 drafts? 3 truly impactful guys (Griffin, Trent, Morris). We need to do a lot better in order to really get this team moving in the right direction.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052539]I see that yes, but redefining the characteristics of players recruited has EVERYTHING to do with scheme.[/quote]

i was somewhat confused as to the sequence of statements as well = saying first "we are going to redefine ..." followed by saying "when we have a HC ..." makes it seem like they will first decide what type of player they are looking for and then allow the new HC to have some input as well but after-the-fact.

but i reminded myself that this was the transcript of allen's presser and words have better context and fluidity when heard instead of seen in B&W.

my clear impression is that they will get a new HC who will have input on the players as well. somewhat awkward sentence structure.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Mattyk;1052560]Is there really much here to like?

2010: Trent Williams and Perry Riley, the other 4 picks are long gone.
2011: Kerrigan, Jenkins, Hankerson, Helu, meh to the rest.
2012: RG3, Morris, Cousins, the rest are mostly weekly inactives.
2013: Amerson, Reed, no impact from the rest.

11 guys worthing noting in 4 drafts? 3 truly impactful guys (Griffin, Trent, Morris). We need to do a lot better in order to really get this team moving in the right direction.[/quote]

considering 1) where some of these guys were drafted (4th R or later) and 2) our draft history before MS ... i think mike did better than anyone under DS's tenure imo. looking at those names you listed, that is our young core players.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=over the mountain;1052561]i was somewhat confused as to the sequence of statements as well = saying first "we are going to redefine ..." followed by saying "when we have a HC ..." makes it seem like they will first decide what type of player they are looking for and then allow the new HC to have some input as well but after-the-fact.

but i reminded myself that this was the transcript of allen's presser and words have better context and fluidity when heard instead of seen in B&W.

my clear impression is that they will get a new HC who will have input on the players as well. somewhat awkward sentence structure.[/quote]

Sure, transcripts can come across differently, and no I didn't watch the presser, and I appreciate you being polite about it. Thank you!

But I still maintain that the strong statement at the end of "the decision will be mine," is concerning because he is not a football guy, he is a management guy. I certainly hope the new coach has say over scheme, otherwise it will get ugly quickly, and I think it will be pretty apparent early on, like it was with Zorn.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052563]Sure, transcripts can come across differently, and no I didn't watch the presser, and I appreciate you being polite about it. Thank you!

But I still maintain that the strong statement at the end of "the decision will be mine," is concerning because he is not a football guy, he is a management guy. [B]I certainly hope the new coach has say over scheme[/B], otherwise it will get ugly quickly, and I think it will be pretty apparent early on, like it was with Zorn.[/quote]

This will probably be sticking point with the new coach, I want to run my own scheme. I dont think Bruce will say Bevell your hired, now be prepared to Houston run n shoot from 1992

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=saden1;1052556]You're telling me a man that gets hired for the GM job only to be rendered powerless after the hiring of a head coach should not be viewed as a lackey?

I suppose you and I have a different view of the definition of lackey.[/quote]

Lackey is much different than puppet, which was the term I took issue with. People out there are saying that Allen is just an extension of Snyder, carrying out his whims. I do not think that's an educated statement in the slightest.

If I were going to characterize Allen's role under Shanahan, I would use the word chump or errand boy. But that's not to say he's not capable or qualified. There's a difference between what you are capable of and what your boss actually has you doing. Snyder relegated him to a ninny role because he had to in order to land Shanahan, who said to Dan in no uncertain terms, I get full control or you don't get Mike Shanahan.

But not anymore, that's where my optimism comes from.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

the pessimist in me interpreted allen's strong statement of "the decision will be mine" as trying to put an end to any early speculation about DS making football/player decisions.

im in a wait and see mode. i like allen being the clear head person in charge ... but a part of me is very afraid he will allow DS to whisper in his ear but deny DS doing so.

these are very important times for the skins franchise. stakes are high. i really need allen to truly take charge. for the love of my B&G .. please.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Allen pretty clearly said that Campbell will be running the draft and Brown handling free agency. He us probably the final say guy and the one who would sign off on trades and things like that but I didn't get the sense that it was all Bruce making the personnel decisions.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Chico23231;1052564]This will probably be sticking point with the new coach, I want to run my own scheme. I dont think Bruce will say Bevell your hired, now be prepared to Houston run n shoot from 1992[/quote]

Sure, (and I know people are sick of my opinion, but that is what a forum is for) I think this will be a sticking point for coaching candidates, but I don't think my concern is as ludicrous as people are making it out to be. The FO HAS made important football decisions before hiring a HC before, and we were stuck with Zorn. Maybe I am not remembering correctly, but I seem to recall that they hired the coordinators before they settled on Zorn.

IF, there is any question about schemetic decision making (and granted that may be a BIG IF), than what kind of coach are we going to be able to land.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=over the mountain;1052566]
im in a wait and see mode. i like allen being the clear head person in charge ... but a part of me is very afraid he will allow DS to whisper in his ear but deny DS doing so. [/quote]

On the major major decisions, don't you think most owners around the league are doing this anyway? Irsay tweeted the crap out of the Andrew Luck process and pick. All owners want to be involved in the picking of head coaches. But as long as Snyder is not choosing who he wants as a 5th round pick like Jerruh is in Dallas, then that's the norm in the NFL and absolutely fine with me.

I want a coach who coaches and an administrative department who administrates and picks players, and an owner who puts his stamp on it but doesn't meddle. I like the model they're headed towards, as long as they can find a coach who is OK with Allen picking the players - through reliance on his scouting dept - I hate to say Allen is picking the players because all he'll be doing is relying on Brown and Campbell.

Sounds like they're targeting Sean McDermott and Darrell Bevell in early interviews. I doubt those guys would be the types to insist on total personnel control.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

As for Allen's credentials, people love to point to his failure in Tampa. Well look at those years, the team was aging from its SB glory and had to turn over for salary cap purposes. Sapp had to retire, Simeon Rice got old, John Lynch's cap number got too high, and most importantly of all, Brad Johnson got too old and they had to turnover the QB position.

Hard to hold Allen and Gruden responsible when there's no franchise QB on the roster. I really do think things will look up for us under this new model and with RG3 in tow. Heck, this year alone we could make major strides if we're smart with all this cap space we have. We will be shoppers, that's for sure.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

It is my firm belief that so long as Snyder is the owner the GM position is merely ceremonial.

It's hard to have confidence in Bruce Allen given the last 4 years and his lack of leadership.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

So I just watched the presser, and I apologize, because it is pretty clear in the video that my concerns were due to misinterpreting the transcribed statement. I really appreciate that some people were willing to point that out politely. Some people here were rude about my mistake, and maybe I should have watched the video before posting, but you know, not everyone has time to sit down and do that. You really took the fun out of this site for me, why post anything if an honest mistake will be greeted with mocking? Ok, I know I'm being way too sensitive about it, but generally I have valid opinions and this kind of thing makes me not want to post here. That is why I have been on this site for almost 8 years and have so few posts. It really amazes me, because you've have made yourselves out to be more reasonable people than ExtremeSkins, but maybe I'll post my stupid thoughts there instead. Anyways, just felt like putting that out there. Happy New Year!

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052580]So I just watched the presser, and I apologize, because it is pretty clear in the video that my concerns were due to misinterpreting the transcribed statement. I really appreciate that some people were willing to point that out politely. Some people here were rude about my mistake, and maybe I should have watched the video before posting, but you know, not everyone has time to sit down and do that. You really took the fun out of this site for me, why post anything if an honest mistake will be greeted with mocking? Ok, I know I'm being way too sensitive about it, but generally I have valid opinions and this kind of thing makes me not want to post here. That is why I have been on this site for almost 8 years and have so few posts. It really amazes me, because you've have made yourselves out to be more reasonable people than ExtremeSkins, but maybe I'll post my stupid thoughts there instead. Anyways, just felt like putting that out there. Happy New Year![/quote]


Hey man didn't mean to make you feel that way. In the end we all want the same thing and we're passionate about it. Just do us a favor and never compare this site to that shithole extremeskins ;)

Happy New Year to all.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Redskins_P;1052581]Hey man didn't mean to make you feel that way. In the end we all want the same thing and we're passionate about it. Just do us a favor and never compare this site to that shithole extremeskins ;)

Happy New Year to all.[/quote]

Thank you, I sincerely did not expect an apology from anyone. And certainly going to ES is an idle threat, just blowing off steam, but Thanks!

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

The structure is fine...whether the people are any good is what we'll find out. I have said it in the past...doing things the right way doesn't mean you're doing the right things. Shanny is the prime example. He was a good hire in that he was able to come in and run a professional org..he just sucked at making the right decisions essentially.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Schneed10;1052535]You clearly have no knowledge of how the Redskins front office worked under Shanahan. I would draw you an org structure but this isn't MS Word.

Shanahan reported to Snyder. Allen reported to Shanahan. Campbell and Brown reported to Allen.

All personnel decisions were made by Mike. Salary cap functions, scouting functions, non-football operations and alumni relations were handled by Allen. It was up to Shanahan to decide how do best make use of Allen and his resources.

Allen is not to blame for anything.[/quote]

This. People say GM in title only like that's a bad thing. I think it should be obvious BA wasn't making personnel decisions over Shanahan. As far as the new structure goes, I don't have a problem with it as long as Bruce Allen isn't scouting players or doing Campbell or Brown's job. Let them do their jobs and let BA just manage the two. I don't mind him making personnel decisions as long as he's picking between guys that Campbell/Brown scouted.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Exactly mooby. I think people need to understand that the most effective CEOs do almost nothing themselves. They think strategically and put people in the right position. NFL coaches and GMs are in the same boat. That will be Allen's role as the personnel czar.

Cerrato tried to do everything himself, ignoring the scouting department. And his moves were asinine. Just make sure you have the right people in place, and concentrate on keeping a workable environment where everyone can freely weigh in without fear of reprisal. Then by simply being a subscriber to the common sense newsletter, you can make very sound decisions. Allen is so mature and clearly a slick politician, I guarantee he understands how to manage people.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

And that includes managing up.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Schneed10;1052642]Exactly mooby. I think people need to understand that the most effective CEOs do almost nothing themselves. They think strategically and put people in the right position. NFL coaches and GMs are in the same boat. That will be Allen's role as the personnel czar.

Cerrato tried to do everything himself, ignoring the scouting department. And his moves were asinine. Just make sure you have the right people in place, and concentrate on keeping a workable environment where everyone can freely weigh in without fear of reprisal. Then by simply being a subscriber to the common sense newsletter, you can make very sound decisions. Allen is so mature and clearly a slick politician, I guarantee he understands how to manage people.[/quote]

This. I'll take BA up there over Vinny a million times over. In a sense we haven't really seen the abilities of Brown and Campbell through Vinny then Shanarat. Maybe we can do better than Brown like SS says but it's a great start for now.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

So, now that Shanahan is gone it sounds like a lot of you think the culture of the organization is going to dramatically improve instantly. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it is hard for me to be so optimistic about a FO at least inactively involved in the past four years, not to mention these organizational culture issues have been around for almost 2 decades. After all the crap I've seen I'm going to remain skeptical until I see results.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052649]So, now that Shanahan is gone it sounds like a lot of you think the culture of the organization is going to dramatically improve instantly. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it is hard for me to be so optimistic about a FO at least inactively involved in the past four years, not to mention these organizational culture issues have been around for almost 2 decades. After all the crap I've seen I'm going to remain skeptical until I see results.[/quote]

I mean there's good reason to be skeptical, the last guy we trusted to build a team was also the head coach that led us to a 3-13 year. There's a lot of trust we're going to have to put in Bruce Allen that he will be able to do this, and a lot of trust will be placed on Campbell and Brown to do their jobs effectively, because if they don't word will definitely get around the NFL.

We're basically placing our trust in a group of guys and saying,"ok now the onus is on you to prove you are a smart talent evaluator. Now go do it." Only way we'll be able to effectively judge them is in a couple of years. But I do think they deserve their shot, especially Morocco Brown considering there are teams out there that might be considering him for a GM job. If that's true then it says a lot about what other teams think of him, and if he's that valuable a piece I'd love to keep him and put him in a role where we trust him to evaluate talent. I mean personally, is this any more risky than hiring another guy who wants complete control over everything? There's risks in any move you make.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

I think at this point we have to believe that BA will make the best choice for the organization. I do like that all statements came from BA and not Snyder, Allen doesn't strike me as a puppet kind of guy. Let's not forget that they hired AJ last year, Snyder and Allen must have seen something back then that would have them hire AJ. He has a reputation being a great talent evaluator but poor with letting talent walk out the door That won't happen here.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052649]So, now that Shanahan is gone it sounds like a lot of you think the culture of the organization is going to dramatically improve instantly. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it is hard for me to be so optimistic about a FO at least inactively involved in the past four years, not to mention these organizational culture issues have been around for almost 2 decades. After all the crap I've seen I'm going to remain skeptical until I see results.[/quote]

I can certainly understand your viewpoint. You have good reason to be skeptical but I like that you're giving it a chance.

If I relied more on my head and less on my heart then I couldn't be a Redskins fan. But I grew up in D.C. and in my childhood I loved the Redskins unconditionally. Right now, I'm trying to view the Redskins optimistically, as if through the eyes of a child. It makes me happier.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Yeah, I hear you. I mean I try to remain optimistic about this team, and in one way I'm glad they aren't blowing up the whole operation. It would probably be a mistake to given the investment in RG3. So I feel like we really don't have any option but to give this a chance. I mean, ideally I'd like to see them bring in a football guy to be GM, but if we can't get a proven guy in here willing to use some of the pieces we have, then I guess I'd rather give it a shot with who we've got rather than start from square one. It might be a mistake though to let our hopes for RG3 hinder the future of the franchise, but I guess that's the bed we made when we drafted him. My biggest concern right now is that the lack of a true GM with football knowledge will mean a lot of the candidates won't even consider us and that this core team won't get a fair shake either way. I do really hope I'm worrying for nothing, but all in all I feel that this is a miserable situation to be in, and in the third year of our hopefully superstar QB that we've sold the farm for it is potentially disastrous.
That said Im really hoping for some good news over the next few weeks.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

In ejecting Vinny we tried to move toward a "real" FO structure. But this movement was hijacked at least in part by Shanahan. We have an opportunity now to complete the revolution by truly installing a real FO. So there is reason for cautious optimism.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

I feel that we must be underestimating Bruce Allen's football IQ. After all, he is the son of the great George Allen. He grew up on football. He's also been an executive in the NFL for a long time.

He didn't just grow up on football. He grew up on [U]Redskins[/U] football. I feel like he's one of us.

I've wanted him to be our true GM for quite a while. I'm happy about it because I believe that he cares about resurrecting this franchise for personal as well as professional reasons. A liitle extra motivation couldn't hurt.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052580]So I just watched the presser, and I apologize, because it is pretty clear in the video that my concerns were due to misinterpreting the transcribed statement. I really appreciate that some people were willing to point that out politely. Some people here were rude about my mistake, and maybe I should have watched the video before posting, but you know, not everyone has time to sit down and do that. You really took the fun out of this site for me, why post anything if an honest mistake will be greeted with mocking? Ok, I know I'm being way too sensitive about it, but generally I have valid opinions and this kind of thing makes me not want to post here. That is why I have been on this site for almost 8 years and have so few posts. It really amazes me, because you've have made yourselves out to be more reasonable people than ExtremeSkins, but maybe I'll post my stupid thoughts there instead. Anyways, just felt like putting that out there. Happy New Year![/quote]

The reality is if you toss out half baked thoughts on something you're not 100% informed on, you have to expect some level of mocking in return. Nobody is perfect obviously and we all make mistakes so it's all good. Try not to take it personal, I think we've all been "corrected" at times here.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1052684]I feel that we must be underestimating Bruce Allen's football IQ. After all, he is the son of the great George Allen. He grew up on football. He's also been an executive in the NFL for a long time.

He didn't just grow up on football. He grew up on [U]Redskins[/U] football. I feel like he's one of us.

I've wanted him to be our true GM for quite a while. I'm happy about it because I believe that he cares about resurrecting this franchise for personal as well as professional reasons. A liitle extra motivation couldn't hurt.[/quote]

I grew up eating a lot of great food but I couldn't cook you up an 8 course dinner.

I'm on the fence with this current FO setup. If Allen is going to let Campbell and Brown do their jobs and he's there more or less as a mediator, that very well could work. I'd still prefer to have a decision maker in place that specializes in personnel though. We'll have to wait and see.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Mattyk;1052691]I grew up eating a lot of great food but I couldn't cook you up an 8 course dinner.[/quote]

I grew up the son of a plumber but I don't know sh**!

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

It is normal to have:
1) a GM whose expertise is personnel
2) a coach whose expertise is on the field

Yet we have not adopted that approach for many years and our current set-up still does not reflect that approach. Why can't we just be normal?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Lotus;1052699]It is normal to have:
1) a GM whose expertise is personnel
2) a coach whose expertise is on the field

Yet we have not adopted that approach for many years and our current set-up still does not reflect that approach. Why can't we just be normal?[/quote]

For all intents and purposes, morocco brown and Scott Campbell are co-gms

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1052705]For all intents and purposes, morocco brown and Scott Campbell are co-gms[/quote]

That's actually my point. Looked at your way, we do not have a single, responsible, buck-stops-here GM. If you say that the buck-stops-here guy is Allen, then our GM is not a personnel guy. Either way we miss the mark on a model that many find ideal.

Hopefully dust has not fully settled yet and we'll end up with BA as CEO, a real GM (maybe even Morocco or Campbell), and a real coach.

How would a co-GM role work anyway? Would Brown and Campbell vote with BA entering the fray only as a tiebreaker?

Also, until Brown or Campbell carry the title of GM, they can more easily be hired away to GM other teams.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Mattyk;1052690]The reality is if you toss out half baked thoughts on something you're not 100% informed on, you have to expect some level of mocking in return. Nobody is perfect obviously and we all make mistakes so it's all good. Try not to take it personal, I think we've all been "corrected" at times here.[/quote]

I appreciate your response. I'm glad you put "corrected" in quotations, because corrected would imply to me intelligent conversation in which people are informed of mistakes by explaining where they are thinking wrongly, and not attacks on a person's intelligence. Perhaps this is just a half baked thought of mine though.

I will be sure to not to post anything I'm not 100% informed on in the future. Sorry for taking it personally. Thank you!

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=RobH4413;1052457]Let me be clear. I am advocating for a true GM because I think these two previously (repeatedly) used templates for running the organization suck.

[LIST=1][*]Give a coach 100% control over football operation. (Shottenheimer, Gibbs, Shanahan)[*]Handcuff F/O and coach with Quasi-GM bureaucratic mess (Spurrier, Zorn)[/LIST]

My proposed solution is for a true GM (not Snyder's right hand man), with respectable football organizational and social skills to provide a coaching staff with the tools for success.

Perhaps Allen and co can succeed with this template, but I'm worried about the influence Snyder has on the team, due to the track record. I'm hoping more changes come, and Snyder openly and officially steps back and let's the football guys do what they know how to do.[/quote]

I really don't understand your position, but it seems to be one based out of pure speculation/distrust of Snyder. By most all accounts he stayed out of Gibbs and Shanahan's way, and mostly out of Cerrato's way as well. You say he has a track record, but his last 8 years of owning the team has been mostly with him on the outside letting the people he thought he could trust handle it. He is still a work in progress as an owner, but he's by no means the same guy who fired Marty brashly.

I just hope we get something that works for the Skins, regardless of how long the process takes

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Lotus;1052699]It is normal to have:
1) a GM whose expertise is personnel
2) a coach whose expertise is on the field

Yet we have not adopted that approach for many years and our current set-up still does not reflect that approach. Why can't we just be normal?[/quote]

I look at it this way. This set up is better than having the coach have all the power. For the most part, that way hasn't really worked. I think we're fine. It seems Brown will run the pro personnel side and Campbell works college. Allen has the final say. It sounds like he's going to lean heavily on those two. Not sure why anyone has a issue with this set up. Allen has been the GM of two Super Bowl teams. I trust him.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1052738]I really don't understand your position, but it seems to be one based out of pure speculation/distrust of Snyder. [B]By most all accounts he stayed out of Gibbs and Shanahan's way, and mostly out of Cerrato's way as well[/B]. You say he has a track record, but his last 8 years of owning the team has been mostly with him on the outside letting the people he thought he could trust handle it. He is still a work in progress as an owner, but he's by no means the same guy who fired Marty brashly.

I just hope we get something that works for the Skins, regardless of how long the process takes[/quote]

You are saying exactly what he said, he gave Gibbs/Shanahan full control, what you are not getting is that when he gives full control it is to someone without experience/talent for picking players.

Most teams have a GM that is known for having an eye for talent and team building. BA is not known for these things. SO the question is:

Why can't he give full control to someone with personnel experience?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1052684]

He didn't just grow up on football. He grew up on [U]Redskins[/U] football. I feel like he's one of us.
[/quote]



So with that thought Jason Garrett should be a super bowl coach by now , right ?I mean he grew up with his dad a coach with a couple of teams and the Cowboys (scout)

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Giantone;1052753]So with that thought Jason Garrett should be a super bowl coach by now , right ?I mean he grew up with his dad a coach with a couple of teams and the Cowboys (scout)[/quote]

Garrett goes to the Super Bowl every year in preseason predictions. So there's that.