Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Chico23231;1094376]RG3 pocket awareness is terrible, he gets happy feet and starts to feel pressure that isnt there as the game goes on. So even when he has time, he feels he doesnt. Has a hard time pre snap and has a hard time seeing the field. Jay needs to move the pocket more for him, but he doesnt for some reason.[/quote]

Yup. RGIII has no clock in his head, sees the field poorly,and has not had the game slow down for him. The "no clock in the head" is the worst part.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=Lotus;1094391]Yup. RGIII has no clock in his head, sees the field poorly,and has not had the game slow down for him. The "no clock in the head" is the worst part.[/QUOTE]


Absolutely the worst part because this is not a developmental problem. This is an innate inability problem. Does anyone in their rite mind believe he is being told to hold the ball for 3-5 seconds than check down without progressing thru his reads?!? That's ridiculous.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

Lots of Qbs hold the ball to long, but they run out of the pocket. Our poor line play is compounded by him not moving well. He may have also lost some of his athletic ability from repeated surgeries, its probably a combination of everything. Him and Bradford are going to cause alot of teams to pass drafting QBs high with big surgeries in college.

However teams that want to win games with average Qbs, need alot better line play. We have 1 good offensive linemen right now(whos hurt), and only 1 above average defensive lineman. Our talent is just so subpar its ridiculous. We still aren't doing a good job drafting and signing free agents. We've had some really good coaches here the last 10 plus years. They can't make it work with whatever is going on behind the scenes.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Lotus;1094391]Yup. RGIII has no clock in his head, sees the field poorly,and has not had the game slow down for him. The "no clock in the head" is the worst part.[/quote]

...stares down receivers, abandons his fundamentals under pressure, shows poor judgement by not avoiding negative plays, etc., etc., etc. And this is coming from someone who has supported him.

He is playing very poorly and he is not offsetting some of his poor play by making big plays.

I don't know what to think of his progress at this point. I've gone from distressed about it to depressed about it.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=punch it in;1094388]Alfred and the cheerleaders sounds excellent to me! Lol
I completely hear what you are saying. I know that you think he isnt being developed.
What I am saying is that regardless of his athleticism I dont think he has it in him to ever be anything even remotely resembling Joe Montana. What I am saying is that no matter who we bring in to develop him he is what he is. A supreme athlete that will never be a great or even really good passing qb. Maybe one day he will shock me whether it is as a Redskin or not. Who knows? My only point about Colt was that he seemed to have a feel for the offense once he got rolling. I dont think he is the long term answer by any means. If he had Roberts arm strength well than....
I disagree about our inability to develop a qb. It just has to be the rite one. Ramsey, JC - it isnt like they left the Skins and excelled. Who else are we talking about? Brunell - dudes best years were behind him. Jon Beck? Lol. With Robert we finally had a top pick and used it on a qb. He simply isnt what we hoped imo. Huge blunder but one we had to take a shot on. It isnt working. Its that simple. Sucks, but it is what it is. Im wanting to eat crow man. Im starving for a big ole crow sandwich![/quote]

With our O line, the right one is either Fran Tarkenton or Doug Flutie. Once you ruin a QB, dont expect him to come back. Once Ramsey and Campbell left our team, It was pretty obvious that they werent going to all of a sudden get it. Although Im not convinced JC would ever be that good. Ramsey I thought could have been a good pocket QB. Not Brady good by any means. Spurrier ruined him by getting him killed, he was never the same, and they rarely are after that.

The only thing this organization has done since RG3 got here is lower the floor, not attempt to reach the ceiling. Until we care about our players reaching their ceiling, nothing else will matter much. I also dont think developing the QB is the only problem. I think picking the right people and developing every position properly is the problem. For as much as Raheem Morris gets talked down on, it seems that 2 of the 4 young ones that I see actually developing are under his charge (Amerson and Breeland with Alfred and Keenan Robinson as the others. Possibly Kerrigan, but he seems to be pulling an Orakpo this year. Be dominant in some games and disappear completely in others).

When Tyler Polumbus is your starting RT for 3 years. The something is wrong. When Tyler Polumbus finally gets sat down and we actually do worse at that position... We are drafting and developing wrong across the board, not just the QB position.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

In my opinion, Gruden now has seen all of these weaknesses from RGIII, and it's up to him to try and help him out. Call passing plays with no more than 2 quick options, lot of roll outs, screens...things he does well...and minimizes the decisions he has to make since he obviously struggles with it. If Gruden can't do this, he probably should and will be gone. This is the qb you have right now, try and work with what you have now, your offensive scheme may be great, but it's certainly not so far with RGIII running it. So make changes.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

I don't see the point in bothering with Colt at this point, there's no chance of making the playoffs, so we need to let RG3 continue to grow and develop (Don't even mention cousins, the guy throws way too many interceptions).

What we need to do is find away to build the team to cover RG3's weaknesses.

He has bad pocket presence and can't avoid the sack, fine, build a stronger Offensive line, so he has all the time in the world.

A smart coach realizes the strengths and weaknesses of his team and makes moves to capitalize on the strengths and minimize the negative effects of the weaknesses

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

Colt or Cousins clearly aren't the answer... Griffin may not be either but he has to keep playing until we know.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Coff;1094386]This is what's frustrating. This blind belief that no matter who is on the bench, he's better than the QB on the field. So we cherry pick statistics to find something to justify our belief. But this is just ridiculous. Okay, RGIII gets sacked more than Colt and Kirk. But he throws more touchdowns, throws fewer interceptions, completes more first downs, completes a higher percentage of his passes, averages more yards per reception, and has a much higher QB rating. But he gets sacked more, so yeah, let's make that the only statistic that matters.

Let's compare McCoy to Griffin. McCoy has thrown nearly 25% fewer passes but has managed to throw more interceptions. McCoy averages a TD every 34 passes, RGIII averages one every 25. McCoy has completed less than 60% of his passes, RGIII has completed 64% of his. McCoy averages 6.5 yards per attempt, RGIII 7.5. It's not a comparison; RGIII is a superior QB; he's a superior pocket passer. It's enough to just recognize that RGIII is not a great QB and that we will probably have to move on, but to get delusional about it and add to the cacophony of nonsense that surrounds this organization just simply isn't helpful.[/quote]

How does Griffin throw more TD's? He started 3 full games and has three TD passes. Also there is no way that his pass per reception is higher than Cousins. And two of his three starts the offense has scored less than 10. All I'm saying is if he comes out like this in the remaining games you have to pull him.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

What was frustrating is it seems as if RGIII is regressing rather than progressing.

I still say he gets the remaining games. I don't care how bad he plays, he starts. The season is a wash and this is now "the RGIII audition tour." I was willing to give him a pass in Minnesota b/c he had been out. No such pass for TBay.

Six games to prove you're the man Griffin - that's a tall order.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=punch it in;1094393]Absolutely the worst part because this is not a developmental problem. This is an innate inability problem. Does anyone in their rite mind believe he is being told to hold the ball for 3-5 seconds than check down without progressing thru his reads?!? That's ridiculous.[/quote]

What?

Your inner clock is a development as a quarterback. It can change through out the game and you learn through PLAYING how to adjust to it.

Nobody remembers the days of throwing bags at the QB or tennis balls to have them move in the pocket?

RG3 needs to play. He's the best QB we have and the only way for him to get better and get some swagger back is for him to be on the field and fight through the tough years just like every other QB has had to do.

Just 3 weeks ago NFL network was talking about Brady being done....

I'm just saying.. People need to stop with all this higher expectation bullshit right now. Prediction thread last week had like 2 people assuming we would lose and everyone thinking we were winning or blowing out the Bucs.

Guess what? We are the Bucs right now.. Our team is not very good and that includes the QB. Can they get better? Yeah.. Absolutely with the right leadership and I believe that man is here now.

Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=Bucket;1094447]What?



Your inner clock is a development as a quarterback. It can change through out the game and you learn through PLAYING how to adjust to it.



Nobody remembers the days of throwing bags at the QB or tennis balls to have them move in the pocket?



RG3 needs to play. He's the best QB we have and the only way for him to get better and get some swagger back is for him to be on the field and fight through the tough years just like every other QB has had to do.



Just 3 weeks ago NFL network was talking about Brady being done....



I'm just saying.. People need to stop with all this higher expectation bullshit right now. Prediction thread last week had like 2 people assuming we would lose and everyone thinking we were winning or blowing out the Bucs.



Guess what? We are the Bucs right now.. Our team is not very good and that includes the QB. Can they get better? Yeah.. Absolutely with the right leadership and I believe that man is here now.[/QUOTE]


You can throw tennis balls at him all you want, and he will have the words wilson imprinted all over his body.
Edit: Griff holds the ball too long ALOT. It does not seem his internal clock is adjusting. When he does get rid of it - it is usually locked in and checked down. He misses way too many wide open guys. Some guys never learn this, maybe he will and maybe he wont. Rite now the magic 8-ball says "doubtful".

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Bucket;1094447]What?

Your inner clock is a development as a quarterback. It can change through out the game and you learn through PLAYING how to adjust to it.

Nobody remembers the days of throwing bags at the QB or tennis balls to have them move in the pocket?

RG3 needs to play. He's the best QB we have and the only way for him to get better and get some swagger back is for him to be on the field and fight through the tough years just like every other QB has had to do.

Just 3 weeks ago NFL network was talking about Brady being done....

I'm just saying.. People need to stop with all this higher expectation bullshit right now. Prediction thread last week had like 2 people assuming we would lose and everyone thinking we were winning or blowing out the Bucs.

Guess what? We are the Bucs right now.. Our team is not very good and that includes the QB. Can they get better? Yeah.. Absolutely with the right leadership and I believe that man is here now.[/quote]

What I see with RGIII often is not that his clock is too slow, it's that he has no clock at all.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[QUOTE=Lotus;1094468]What I see with RGIII often is not that his clock is too slow, it's that he has no clock at all.[/QUOTE]


Thank you. This is what i was trying to say. You either have it or you dont. You cant coach dont.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Chico23231;1094385]cant sit him, we have to coach him and play him to see results. makes zero sense to play colt. cant play, wont learn[/quote]

I've seen enough. He can't fix all of his issues in six weeks.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Lotus;1094468]What I see with RGIII often is not that his clock is too slow, it's that he has no clock at all.[/quote]


It is funny though, as the game progresses he changes. At the start of games he holds on to it, patting the ball all day, staring down one receiver until he gets sacked. Later in games he starts hopping about as soon as is it is snapped and automatically goes for the checkdown before anything can open up down the field.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Hijinx;1094491]It is funny though, as the game progresses he changes. At the start of games he holds on to it, patting the ball all day, staring down one receiver until he gets sacked. Later in games he starts hopping about as soon as is it is snapped and automatically goes for the checkdown before anything can open up down the field.[/quote]

That's what 6 sacks will do to you.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

Listen to what Gruden says about how well Griffin played and Griffins leadership this week. He needs to keep up this brutal honesty. love it.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

Seen too many good QBs make crappy O-lines look good to put this all on the OL

Edit: by "look good" I mean serviceable.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Kindoy;1094503]Seen too many good QBs make crappy O-lines look good to put this all on the OL[/quote]

Notice how you said good QB's and not developing QB's. No one is arguing that Tom Brady cant make his OL better. We are saying Tom Brady would be no where near as good today if he was under constant pressure and had to rely on faking out a DE and running himself in his first couple of years.

Aaron Rodgers... You really should listen to people in the know about how terrible his footwork and technique were early on. He was a Tedford disciple. The hold the football above your ear when dropping back technique. Some people associated with GB at the time said Rodgers would have busted as bad as Ryan Leaf if he had to play as a rookie. Even Rodgers first year as a starter was not impressive, and he was 4 or 5 years into the league at that point.

Rodgers can make a bad OL look good... now... after his development. That says nothing about developing a QB though. If they arent developed properly, they arent making a bad OL look good, except maybe RG3 as a rookie with an offense designed with no thought of actually developing him.

Development matters... I still cant understand how most think its completely unimportant.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

Wow, people still think Jay Gruden is a good coach. When Snyder and co are doing the evaluation of the coaches how can you expect the coaches to be any good? How do you reconcile Allen saying "we don't have gaping holes" with reality? How can you give your hard earned dollars to watch this filth?


Bruce Arians....amazing. Jay Gruden...shit on a stick.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Skinzman;1094509]Notice how you said good QB's and not developing QB's. No one is arguing that Tom Brady cant make his OL better. We are saying Tom Brady would be no where near as good today if he was under constant pressure and had to rely on faking out a DE and running himself in his first couple of years.

Aaron Rodgers... You really should listen to people in the know about how terrible his footwork and technique were early on. He was a Tedford disciple. The hold the football above your ear when dropping back technique. Some people associated with GB at the time said Rodgers would have busted as bad as Ryan Leaf if he had to play as a rookie. Even Rodgers first year as a starter was not impressive, and he was 4 or 5 years into the league at that point.

Rodgers can make a bad OL look good... now... after his development. That says nothing about developing a QB though. If they arent developed properly, they arent making a bad OL look good, except maybe RG3 as a rookie with an offense designed with no thought of actually developing him.

Development matters... I still cant understand how most think its completely unimportant.[/quote]

Agreed, development is important. Even the pro ready Andrew Luck is still developing, a lot. There was just a write up last week about how the Colts are expecting much improvement from Luck.

RG came to a bad team with horrible management. Bad situation. It's got to start at the top though, from ownership on down. One player can never fix a whole franchise.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

RGIII just proved to me that he doesn't give a care in the world about this team!
STUDY film!!!! 2 weeks to prepare for one of the worst secondaries in the league (next to ours) and you can't get DJax the ball!?!?!? No true leader goes to battle unprepared.
Step up or step down!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Skinzman;1094509]Notice how you said good QB's and not developing QB's. No one is arguing that Tom Brady cant make his OL better. We are saying Tom Brady would be no where near as good today if he was under constant pressure and had to rely on faking out a DE and running himself in his first couple of years.

Aaron Rodgers... You really should listen to people in the know about how terrible his footwork and technique were early on. He was a Tedford disciple. The hold the football above your ear when dropping back technique. Some people associated with GB at the time said Rodgers would have busted as bad as Ryan Leaf if he had to play as a rookie. Even Rodgers first year as a starter was not impressive, and he was 4 or 5 years into the league at that point.

Rodgers can make a bad OL look good... now... after his development. That says nothing about developing a QB though. If they arent developed properly, they arent making a bad OL look good, except maybe RG3 as a rookie with an offense designed with no thought of actually developing him.

Development matters... I still cant understand how most think its completely unimportant.[/quote]

Just seems like during the short stretch when Colt played that the OL was less of an issue. Not saying that Colt is the answer or that I want him in - let's not turn this into that, but I'm just not 100% convinced that this OL can't be worked with/around.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

Not sure I agree totally with Gruden's brutal honesty approach. Some things should be resolved behind closed doors. It's just fueling the fire and adding more doubt to the coach/QB relationship which is a critical one. We've got more problems than just RG3... and those fall on Gruden yet RG3 is taking most of the heat.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=saden1;1094511]Wow, people still think Jay Gruden is a good coach. When Snyder and co are doing the evaluation of the coaches how can you expect the coaches to be any good? How do you reconcile Allen saying "we don't have gaping holes" with reality? How can you give your hard earned dollars to watch this filth?


Bruce Arians....amazing. Jay Gruden...shit on a stick.[/quote]

I have always wondered what people are thinking when they say that we are such a terrible team that no coach could succeed with this cast. Only to then turn around and claim the coach to be the problem while acting like our team is loaded with talent. Comparing our talent to Az is laughable, especially that defense. Would a single player on our defense even be able to start for them?

Its like cutting a tomato in half and wondering why you dont get half an apple and half a watermelon.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Skinzman;1094519]I have always wondered what people are thinking when they say that we are such a terrible team that no coach could succeed with this cast. Only to then turn around and claim the coach to be the problem while acting like our team is loaded with talent. Comparing our talent to Az is laughable, especially that defense. [B]Would a single player on our defense even be able to start for them?[/B]

Its like cutting a tomato in half and wondering why you dont get half an apple and half a watermelon.[/quote]

Yes

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Kindoy;1094520]Yes[/quote]

Who?

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

Hasslett will be gone by the end of the year...
The fact that we could not rattle McCown is all the evidence you need to prove that his system is terrible!!

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Schneed10;1094353]I can't believe the overall tone of this thread is supportive of Jay Gruden. He's been terrible.

Griffin has not lived up to his reputation and I'm starting to wonder if he ever will.

But I have not seen Jay Gruden do anything offensively to give us a strategic advantage other than launch it deep to DeSean Jackson. His version of the zone blocking scheme has resulted in sub-par running from Alfred Morris despite running behind mostly the same line as the Shanahans had. If anything this line should be better.

Pierre Garcon has turned from one of the most reliable receivers in the league into a complete afterthought.

Gruden's team was completely unprepared yesterday. And as for the matter of Griffin, his poor development falls at the feet of the head coach, like it or not. He was brought in to get Robert going in the right direction. He's going in the wrong direction.

I wouldn't make any rash moves. I'd keep Jay and Robert together through Robert's rookie contract. But if they don't both get it in gear then I'd completely clean house.

I'm completely unimpressed by Jay Gruden.[/quote]

Agreed, kinda odd how little heat he's getting. He hasn't done anything to have our support or faith.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Skinzman;1094521]Who?[/quote]

Kerrigan, Coefield, Hatcher, arguably Keenan

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Kindoy;1094524]Kerrigan, Coefield, Hatcher, arguably Keenan[/quote]

I doubt any of them would start right now for Az. Hatcher has been pretty normal the last few games. Kerrigan has taken a step back it seems. He has disappeared completely in a few games this year, although started real hot. Cofield isnt either, Az is strong on the Dline. Keenan... maybe. He has really played well this year but Az also has a pretty strong LB corps.

Az has one of the best defenses out there. Ours is not even in the same conversation.

On a side note. If a lot of you get your wish and Gruden is gone. I would really love if the skins took a long look at Todd Bowles as a HC candidate.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Skinzman;1094526]I doubt any of them would start right now for Az. Hatcher has been pretty normal the last few games. Kerrigan has taken a step back it seems. He has disappeared completely in a few games this year, although started real hot. Cofield isnt either, Az is strong on the Dline. Keenan... maybe. He has really played well this year but Az also has a pretty strong LB corps.

Az has one of the best defenses out there. Ours is not even in the same conversation.

On a side note. If a lot of you get your wish and Gruden is gone. I would really love if the skins took a long look at Todd Bowles as a HC candidate.[/quote]

Coefield > Dan Williams
Hatcher > Frostee Rucker
Kerrigan > Acho & Okafor

Cardinals are great at doing more with less. They plug & play. You plug those 3 into that defense and I just don't believe their guys would play better than ours.

Keenan vs. Foote is the only real argument IMO. Young potential vs. proven vet, not sure Foote is on that roster if they already had Keenan.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

I can see Robinson, Kerrigan, Orakpo, Hatcher, Breeland, Cofield, Amerson starting in Arizona and playing great. Bowles could make Orakpo what everyone expected.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1094531]I can see Robinson, Kerrigan, Orakpo, Hatcher, Breeland, Cofield, Amerson starting in Arizona and playing great. Bowles could make Orakpo what everyone expected.[/quote]

This.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Kindoy;1094529]Coefield > Dan Williams
Hatcher > Frostee Rucker
Kerrigan > Acho & Okafor

Cardinals are great at doing more with less. They plug & play. You plug those 3 into that defense and I just don't believe their guys would play better than ours.

Keenan vs. Foote is the only real argument IMO. Young potential vs. proven vet, not sure Foote is on that roster if they already had Keenan.[/quote]

I'd have to agree.

Basic point is we're not totally devoid of talent. That's what makes the losing all the more frustrating.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1094531]I can see Robinson, Kerrigan, Orakpo, Hatcher, Breeland, Cofield, Amerson starting in Arizona and playing great. Bowles could make Orakpo what everyone expected.[/quote]

Didn't consider Orakpo because of injury, but I agree 100%.

Not sure that Breeland or Amerson have the stuff to start over Cromartie yet - they'd be a lot better in that system though so who knows.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Mattyk;1094533]I'd have to agree.

Basic point is we're not totally devoid of talent. That's what makes the losing all the more frustrating.[/quote]

And we have a shit ton of talent on offense, minus 3 OL positions. WR, TE, FB, RB and LT are all stacked, maybe as good as any in the league.

But those three holes on the oline are terrible, and there's no depth whatsoever. Allen still gets a low grade, and given his coaching searches, it just seems like Allen doesn't have what it takes.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

Are we really talking head coach change again?? Vince Lombardi himself could come out of the grave, and he would go 5-11 with this dysfunctional organization.

Re: Jay Gruden you are our only hope
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1094536]And we have a shit ton of talent on offense, minus 3 OL positions. WR, TE, FB, RB and LT are all stacked, maybe as good as any in the league.

But those three holes on the oline are terrible, and there's no depth whatsoever. Allen still gets a low grade, and given his coaching searches, it just seems like Allen doesn't have what it takes.[/quote]

That's why I say start the 3rd rounders, let's see what they can do. Leribus is probably better than Lauvao and Long is smart and plays with a chip in his shoulder, something Chester lacks.