Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=30gut;1110714]I wouldn't go 34 OLB at pick 5.

In keeping with BPA none of the pass rushers at 5 rate higher then Cooper or White for me. Heck none of them rate better then Schreff or Waynes ( would prefer to trade down to select one of those 2).[/quote]

A trade down where we got Scherff or La'el Collins would be fine with me.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=30gut;1110714]I wouldn't go 34 OLB at pick 5.

In keeping with BPA none of the pass rushers at 5 rate higher then Cooper or White for me. Heck none of them rate better then Schreff or Waynes ( would prefer to trade down to select one of those 2).[/quote]

Waynes should be in the discussion...Schreff is a bit overhyped imo.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

What if Leonard Williams is sitting there at 5? Do you take him?? Or still go with trade down? Or take the top edge rusher?

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1110720]What if Leonard Williams is sitting there at 5? Do you take him?? Or still go with trade down? Or take the top edge rusher?[/quote]

I think you take him unless we are offered a completely retarded deal like the one we gave to St Louis for bust RG3.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

Williams is still my number one option if he falls to us. I'd even be on the Danny Shelton bandwagon at five. Imagine the rotation of Pot Roast and Shelton? Two big boys constantly fresh. Shelton can rush the passer too.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1110720]What if Leonard Williams is sitting there at 5? Do you take him?? Or still go with trade down? Or take the top edge rusher?[/quote]

Take him. He's Gerald McCoy/Ndamakung Suh.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

But there's no way Williams falls to 5.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1110720]What if Leonard Williams is sitting there at 5? Do you take him?? Or still go with trade down? Or take the top edge rusher?[/quote]

If Williams is at 5, I believe we have to take him unless a team makes an offer like we did in 2012.

EDIT:

Parroting Chico

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1110720]What if Leonard Williams is sitting there at 5? Do you take him?? Or still go with trade down? Or take the top edge rusher?[/quote]I take Williams. You add Williams to this DL rotation and Scott would have effectively taken it from an area of weakness to a strength.

Imagine an Okie front with Williams-Knighton-Paea or Hatcher-Paea-Williams....

Or 4 man DL sub-package Hatcher-Paea-Williams-Kerrigan

Damn! Why you playing with my emotions...Williams isn't gonna be there

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=Chico23231;1110721]I think you take him unless we are offered a completely retarded deal like the one we gave to St Louis for bust RG3.[/quote]Ditto.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=Chico23231;1110721]I think you take him unless we are offered a completely retarded deal like the one we gave to St Louis for bust RG3.[/quote]

Feelings have sure changed around here about Griffin. lol.

I think if Williams is on the board at 5 you take him. End of discussion.He would provide that interior pass rush that we've been lacking since going to the 3-4.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1110786]Feelings have sure changed around here about Griffin. lol.

I think if Williams is on the board at 5 you take him. End of discussion.He would provide that interior pass rush that we've been lacking since going to the 3-4.[/quote]

that happens when you play like crap for 2 years running.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=Schneed10;1110724]But there's no way Williams falls to 5.[/quote]

Winston, Mariotta, Fowler, White/Cooper, it's possible with OAK at 4....see Heyward-Bey....but yes, unlikely.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=Defensewins;1110710]Beasley weighed in at 246 in February NFL Combine. He'll probably be even bigger and stronger by start of Trainning Camp, still months away. Neither of these two (Beasley or Fowler) have ever been man handled much, not sure why any scout brings it up? Probably just trying to invent a possible weakness for two guys that have few weakness', if any.
Our top 2 OLB's Kerrigan & Trent Murphy are not considered quick first step, SPEED pass rushers. We really do not have one, even at DE. So we have a bit of a need there.
Beasley is more of that quick first step edge speed pass rusher than Fowler. Not taking anything away from Fowler who is rated slightly higher than Beasley overall, because Fowler is both a physical beast and can also rush the passer very well like Kerrigan.
But great defenses like Seattle have both speed edge pass rushers and physical set the edge run stopper to compliment each other. We do not have a speed rusher....yet!
I'll be happy with either Beasley or Fowler.[/quote]

Fowler strikes me the way you described Kerrigan and Murphy. I'd rather have Beasley over Fowler just to have a LB with a different skill set.

I don't see both of them being at the fifth spot. One will be gone before Wash picks. JAX seems interested in Dante, according to most mock drafts. Hope it proves true so The Skins can get Vic. He would compliment the OLBs in house and vice versa.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=30gut;1110714]I wouldn't go 34 OLB at pick 5.

In keeping with BPA none of the pass rushers at 5 rate higher then Cooper or White for me. Heck none of them rate better then Schreff or Waynes ( would prefer to trade down to select one of those 2).[/quote]
These wr are way to small to even be considered in the top 5. Neither one of these guys are the next Calvin Johnson or AJ Green. When you look at our wr core we size, not more speed. We have plenty of that already.

The pass rushers in this draft are pretty good. Fowler has size and transition speed and power fluidly. He's going to be a stud. Vic Beasly is an outstanding passer rusher. He' kinda undersized but he'll put on weight and with his athleticism he'll carry it well. He's a natural pass rusher and probably the best one in the draft. Shane Ray also a natural pass rusher with great speed. Either one of these guys will immediately improve our pass rush.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1110802]These wr are way to small to even be considered in the top 5. Neither one of these guys are the next Calvin Johnson or AJ Green. When you look at our wr core we size, not more speed. We have plenty of that already.

The pass rushers in this draft are pretty good. Fowler has size and transition speed and power fluidly. He's going to be a stud. Vic Beasly is an outstanding passer rusher. He' kinda undersized but he'll put on weight and with his athleticism he'll carry it well. He's a natural pass rusher and probably the best one in the draft. Shane Ray also a natural pass rusher with great speed. Either one of these guys will immediately improve our pass rush.[/quote]

Kevin White is 6'3" 215 and Cooper is 6'1" 210 so I don't get your too small argument

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1110804]Kevin White is 6'3" 215 and Cooper is 6'1" 210 so I don't get your too small argument[/quote]

Well, they're obviously not too small. I think they are both outstanding prospects. The only concern I have about either of them is the "one year wonder" aspect of White's college career.

The problem I have with them is the fact that they are WR's. For me, in view of our needs, one of them would have to be w-a-a-a-y better than any of the edge rushers for me to understand picking him at #5.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

The closer we get to the draft, the more I feel like our focus will be 1. Trade out 2. focus on getting Leonard Williams 3. or focus on getting Amari Cooper. just a gut feeling...

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1110807]Well, they're obviously not too small. I think they are both outstanding prospects. The only concern I have about either of them is the "one year wonder" aspect of White's college career.

The problem I have with them is the fact that they are WR's. For me, in view of our needs, one of them would have to be w-a-a-a-y better than any of the edge rushers for me to understand picking him at #5.[/quote]

If Scot feels they are the BPA then I say go for it. My top 3 are:
1a) Leonard Williams
1b) Amari Cooper
3) Dante Fowler Jr./ Vic Beasley

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1110828]If Scot feels they are the BPA then I say go for it. My top 3 are:
1a) Leonard Williams
1b) Amari Cooper
3) Dante Fowler Jr./ Vic Beasley[/quote]

1a) Stranger things have happened in the draft than a player of Leonard Williams' caliber going at #5. If that were to happen, I think Scot might set the all-time record for the least time on the clock before making a pick. I would hope so, anyway. He would be a wonderful addition to our team.

1b) I stand by my previous statement: I don't want no stinkin' WR at #5.

3) Fowler has the frame to carry 260 lbs. and play OLB in a 3-4. I'm not so sure about Beasley in a 3-4. Beasley is a great athlete and football player, though. WTH, I'll let Scot decide.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1110804]Kevin White is 6'3" 215 and Cooper is 6'1" 210 so I don't get your too small argument[/quote]Let me rephrase that. I don't mean they're small in a sense that they're undersized. It's just that neither one of these guys are 6'6 or 6'5 matchup nightmares. If we're going draft a guy wr at 5 he should fit that role.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=Chico23231;1110817]The closer we get to the draft, the more I feel like our focus will be 1. Trade out 2. focus on getting Leonard Williams 3. or focus on getting Amari Cooper. just a gut feeling...[/quote]

Why do I get this feeling RGIII is getting traded on draft day?

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=skinsguy;1110837]Why do I get this feeling RGIII is getting traded on draft day?[/quote]

This feeling comes from your brain and in your brain when you watch RG3 play on the field you say to yourself, "RG3, GTFO!"

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=skinsguy;1110837]Why do I get this feeling RGIII is getting traded on draft day?[/quote]
Lets pull our heads out of our asses. Who's going to want to trade for RG3? Over the last two seasons he hasn't showed anything to resembles a starting qb. It's no way it's going to happen.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1110840]Lets pull our heads out of our asses. Who's going to want to trade for RG3? Over the last two seasons he hasn't showed anything to resembles a starting qb. It's no way it's going to happen.[/quote]

I think their is always a market for starting QBs, especially ones with ROY under the belts. The egos around the league always think they can tinker with a player mechanics or their own scheme to elevate the player. As many QB come into the league, look around...their always seems to be a shortage on talent. I think at least 5 teams who would offer a 3rd, a couple might offer a 2nd for RG3. Just my opinion.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=skinsguy;1110837]Why do I get this feeling RGIII is getting traded on draft day?[/quote]

I feel that Scot McC will do the same thing the Seahawks did in the offseason before the 2012-13 season. Acquire a veteran QB and draft a project QB. He's been building up the defense and our running game has not been much of an issue (except when there is no passing game).

I just get the feeling that Gruden will get a pocket (veteran) QB for now and they'll have a project QB who Gruden can groom.

If we're going to have RG3, Mariotta, Cousins, or any young QB; we would have need to acquire free agents the same way we did for the defense. But our offense as it is right now, needs a veteran QB that can overcome our shitty line in order to not be a disaster. This is why acquiring Rivers through some trade that includes an exchange in #1 picks would make a lot of sense under these circumstances.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1110834]Let me rephrase that. I don't mean they're small in a sense that they're undersized. It's just that neither one of these guys are 6'6 or 6'5 matchup nightmares. If we're going draft a guy wr at 5 he should fit that role.[/quote]

No he shouldn't, if he can play he can play. Let's look at the top 5 picks from last year. Ask a tone of those teams if they would rather have Odell Beckham Jr. Right now, BPA is BPA and if we get to #5 and Scot feels that Amari Cooper is the BPA then we take him, and the way I see the draft going, I think Cooper will be the BPA at pick 5 when we are on the clock

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=30gut;1110726]I take Williams. You add Williams to this DL rotation and Scott would have effectively taken it from an area of weakness to a strength.

Imagine an Okie front with Williams-Knighton-Paea or Hatcher-Paea-Williams....

Or 4 man DL sub-package Hatcher-Paea-Williams-Kerrigan

Damn! Why you playing with my emotions...Williams isn't gonna be there[/quote]

This exactly why I do not want us to trade down if Williams or Fowler or Beasley is there. By adding just one one those guys along with our FA additions and key holdover veterans, completely transforms our defense. It Elevates our team by eliminating our biggest weakness, our defense.
Yes, we still have needs at OL, RB, TE and safety. But the holes are getting smaller.
I like having a GM!

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[url=http://www.hogshaven.com/2015/4/9/8376733/marcus-mariotas-visit-with-the-redskins-has-been-cancelled]Marcus Mariota's Visit With the Redskins Has Been Cancelled - Hogs Haven[/url]

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=Defensewins;1110858]This exactly why I do not want us to trade down if Williams or Fowler or Beasley is there. By adding just one one those guys along with our FA additions and key holdover veterans, completely transforms our defense. It Elevates our team by eliminating our biggest weakness, our defense.
Yes, we still have needs at OL, RB, TE and safety. But the holes are getting smaller.
I like having a GM![/quote]

Exactly why there is no such thing as "it's going to take years to re-build". Teams can change dramatically year to year, even crappy ones like the Skins.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=44Deezel;1110877]Exactly why there is no such thing as "it's going to take years to re-build". Teams can change dramatically year to year, even crappy ones like the Skins.[/quote]It seems that way sometimes, like when Harbaugh took over the Niners. But I think the right players have to be in place, and it's tough to tell if that's the case except with hindsight.

We sure look like hot garbage, but so did the niners, right?

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

By the time Harbaugh got to San Francisco, McCloughan had been there 5 years already, rebuilding that team. They were stocked.

I'd like to see examples of teams that have had multiple losing seasons in a row and then turned right around and had multiple winning seasons in a row. I can't think of any right off the bat. We had a good year in 2012 after several bad years, but obviously that was just a mirage. Houston had a decent year this year after a 2-14 season in 2013, but they still had a lot of talent(and JJ Watt). They didn't need to be rebuilt. Same story with Indianapolis in 2012.

If you have to rebuild, it takes time.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

^^ Obviously every re-building team is different, with different circumstances:
- returning talent/veterans
- Salary Cap Space and what they will really spend. Not always the same for every team, some teams are cheap.
- Available FA's in a given year
- And the biggest variable is the GM/FO/Coaching staff's skills in finding talent, developing talent and spending money on FA's wisely.

To many variables to be able to paint with a broad brush.

Clearly the true measure of a team is on the field results and we are still months away from seeing anything. But I must say I like what we have done so far this off season.
Last off season our prior FO rather unwisely spent most of available cap space on Orakpo (terrible move), DeSean Jackson (WR not area of biggets need) and Offensive Guard Lavaou who did not impress that much.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=SirLK26;1110892]By the time Harbaugh got to San Francisco, McCloughan had been there 5 years already, rebuilding that team. They were stocked.[/quote]

You really need the right GM [U]and[/U] the right HC to win. Before Harbaugh arrived in S.F., they had the right GM but they didn't have the right HC.

Let's hope that we have the right GM and HC in place and that they will be allowed to stick around long enough for us to turn the corner. Rebuilding requires ownership to stay the course, as well.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=Defensewins;1110858]This exactly why I do not want us to trade down if Williams or Fowler or Beasley is there. By adding just one one those guys along with our FA additions and key holdover veterans, completely transforms our defense. It Elevates our team by eliminating our biggest weakness, our defense.
Yes, we still have needs at OL, RB, TE and safety. But the holes are getting smaller. ...I like having a GM![/quote]Having a real GM is a treat. In Scott's first season he's already addressing the whole in the defense that the previous regime couldn't during their entire tenure (which ultimately got them fired).

Trading down sounds nice in theory except you need someone to trade up and more importantly what happens if you trade down and all the prospect you expected to be there are all gone? Then trading down doesn't look so great.

But I agree with you if Williams, Fowler (although I wouldn't go edge rusher that early) or Cooper are there you don't trade down.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1110857]No he shouldn't, if he can play he can play. Let's look at the top 5 picks from last year. Ask a tone of those teams if they would rather have Odell Beckham Jr. Right now, BPA is BPA and if we get to #5 and Scot feels that Amari Cooper is the BPA then we take him, and the way I see the draft going, I think Cooper will be the BPA at pick 5 when we are on the clock[/quote]
We already have wrs that fit the mole of the Odell Beckham Jr. We need size at wr. If you can't see that then you don't know enough about football to even be having this conversation with me. This team don't need another wr. We need something that we didn't have last year and that's a pass rush.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1111068]We already have wrs that fit the mole of the Odell Beckham Jr. We need size at wr. If you can't see that then you don't know enough about football to even be having this conversation with me. This team don't need another wr. We need something that we didn't have last year and that's a pass rush.[/quote]

First off, Cooper is 6' 1"/211 lbs. Plenty of size.

As to your main point, however, I have said it before, passing on a guy you believe to be the BPA b/c he doesn't fit an [I]immediate[/I] need is the definition of short term thinking and what has gotten this franchise into so much trouble in the past. If Scot McC thinks Cooper is the clear cut BPA at 5, he should take him. If - and only if - it's a toss-up to Scot McC as to who is the BPA between Cooper and Fowler/Beasley, sure, then need plays a part.

Yes. We have an [I]immediate[/I] need for pass-rushers. Betting on a rookie - even the 5 pick - to resolve that need is pretty damn risky. Particularly when all of the prospective pass rushers are flawed in some way and there is no clear "I am the guy" at the position and, instead, three or four "I may be The Guy but I may be a bust" players at the position.

However, we also have a [I]long term[/I] need for the best football players we can get at every position. Betting on finding one of those by picking the BPA - regardless of position - at the 5 pick is as close to a gimme as you can get in the draft process.

Build for the long term, become a solid team, [I]then[/I] take some risks.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1111068]We already have wrs that fit the mole of the Odell Beckham Jr. We need size at wr. If you can't see that then you don't know enough about football to even be having this conversation with me. This team don't need another wr. We need something that we didn't have last year and that's a pass rush.[/quote]Ahhh the ole need vs BPA question.

I think there is a case that not only is Cooper possible BPA he also fills a critical need both short term and long term.

Coop is a complete WR unlike DeSean who is one of the best deep threat but doesn't run a complete route tree or Garcon who is a great after the catch and a great blocker but doesn't consistently 'win' in man to man or achieve clear separation with his routes.

...Oh and in the immediate long term as early as next year Garcon and maybe even DeSean could be gone.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1111078]First off, Cooper is 6' 1"/211 lbs. Plenty of size.

As to your main point, however, I have said it before, passing on a guy you believe to be the BPA b/c he doesn't fit an [I]immediate[/I] need is the definition of short term thinking and what has gotten this franchise into so much trouble in the past. If Scot McC thinks Cooper is the clear cut BPA at 5, he should take him. If - and only if - it's a toss-up to Scot McC as to who is the BPA between Cooper and Fowler/Beasley, sure, then need plays a part.

Yes. We have an [I]immediate[/I] need for pass-rushers. Betting on a rookie - even the 5 pick - to resolve that need is pretty damn risky. Particularly when all of the prospective pass rushers are flawed in some way and there is no clear "I am the guy" at the position and, instead, three or four "I may be The Guy but I may be a bust" players at the position.
However, we also have a [I]long term[/I] need for the best football players we can get at every position. Betting on finding one of those by picking the BPA - regardless of position - at the 5 pick is as close to a gimme as you can get in the draft process.

Build for the long term, become a solid team, [I]then[/I] take some risks.[/quote]

I agree...McC should take BPA, if he thinks that is Cooper and he is there at #5 then so be it. In the end it's all a crap shoot anyway, I think we should try the BPA this go around..Remember when we need WR's during the Vinny era and his first 3 picks that year were Devin Thomas, Kelly and Fred Davis didn't work out so well.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

Here is one of Kiper's breakdown of the top five (assuming no trades):

1. TBay - Winston
2. Tenn - Mariotta
3. Jax - Williams
4. Oak - Cooper
5. Wash - Fowler

Say Fowler goes to Jax, as some project, and, similarly, Oakland goes with White over Cooper. Who do you pick at 5? Williams, Cooper or Beasley.

Personally, based on everything I have read about it, Williams is the BPA of the draft [I]and[/I] he fits a need so it's a no brainer to me.

On the other hand, if its Cooper, Fowler and Beasley, that's just a tough call given the immediate needs of the team, Fowler and Beasley's lack of "sure thing"edness, and Cooper's guaranteed (as guaranteed as a draft pick can be) high floor. (Every talking head and analyst says all this guy's comparable's are perennial pro bowler/HOFer's - like Williams, he appears to be about as close to a sure thing as you can get in the draft).

Confronted by the Cooper/Fowler/Beasley conundrum, I defer to Scot McC and will not give him crap no matter whom he picks.