Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

^^You are mistaken there. Griffin was indeed benched after 5 games and that's including the Jags game where played a quarter. Texans, Jags, Vikes, Tampa, 49ers then benched.

If you want to do the blow by blow be my guest. The numbers will only help. An objective look back reveals a production level that belies his current perception imo. Especially considering Griffin was benched in the first season in a brand new scheme.

Cousins beating Griffin out doesn't equate to a referendum on Griffin's ability; even Jay has said that much.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

Didn't he get injured the Jags game? Then Kirk came in and we blew them out? I don't want to get into this argument but being injured is different from being benched for poor play.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=mooby;1140012]Didn't he get injured the Jags game? Then Kirk came in and we blew them out? I don't want to get into this argument but being injured is different from being benched for poor play.[/quote]Quite right. But to be clear I didn't say he was benched after the Jags game, which would be the 2nd game. I said he was benched after the 5th which was the 49ers.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

I think this all started when 30gut was dumped by his first girlfriend, Peggy Sue, in 5th Grade.

Peggy Sue never wanted him to begin with. She didn't see his potential as a boyfriend and she wouldn't work with him to help him become the great boyfriend he knows could have been. Then she dumped him for Kirk - no, I mean Billy - at the first opportunity.

30gut has never forgiven Peggy Sue and he has vowed to take it out on [U]us[/U] whenever the name RGIII is mentioned. If he had just been able to get another girlfriend after Peggy Sue, then we might not have been put through this endless torture.

But, I must admit, there is a chance I could be mistaken about the origin of 30gut's RGIII fixation.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

this thread reminds me why we can't get rid of him fast enough.

can't read defenses, no pocket presence -> holds onto the ball too long and takes a lot of sacks he shouldn't, get injured a lot because of it. watch the tape, he can't do the things NFL QBs need to do if they want any chance at being successful. he has an arm and is pretty accurate, but that's just not enough when he doesn't know where he's supposed to throw it.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1139940]Only seven more days.
Pretty sad ending for our investment.
Back in the day I told anyone that would listen that he was going to take us to three superbowls.
My wife likes to "remind" me of that.[/quote]

Just so you know, I hold you responsible as well.......

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=punch it in;1140004]I dont think it matters because sadly he will never be more than a backup again, if he is even able to latch on somewhere. Teams will see that it is indeed a matter of poor play and not him getting run out of town or bamboozled in some way by the Skins. He will have a chance somewhere but my instincts tell me he struggles mightily as he has for quite some time now.
For the sake of answering the question though ...the niners will give him a shot. Than after they give him a shot... Well...see above comments.[/quote]

Couldn't have said it better. He's just not a good NFL quarterback, he doesn't understand the intricacies well enough. Doesn't feel pocket pressure, doesn't understand route tree concepts, doesn't anticipate coverages and which routes will come open against which coverages, and holds onto the ball because he doesn't understand how to anticipate a receiver coming open - he has to see the open receiver before he throws it. Which of course doesn't work.

He'll never be a major factor in this league again.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

And yet the Redskins are STILL holding on to him until the very last minute. I guess it's the smart thing to do but this has really dragged out. No one is giving up a draft pick at this point.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1140057]And yet the Redskins are STILL holding on to him until the very last minute. I guess it's the smart thing to do but this has really dragged out. No one is giving up a draft pick at this point.[/quote]

Seven days here or there, no difference.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

Even I'm looking forward to Griffin being released. The anti-Griffin bias was tiresome.

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Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=30gut;1140060]Even I'm looking forward to Griffin being released. The anti-Griffin bias was tiresome.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk[/quote]

A lot like the anti-Jim Zorn bias. Time to move on.

Predict RGIII's next team
 

[QUOTE=30gut;1140060]Even I'm looking forward to Griffin being released. The anti-Griffin bias was tiresome.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


Im trying to understand your post. I mean I get the first part, u really like Griff and think he can still play etc, but what is the anti Griff bias? It comes across like he has been unfairly treated and hated on for no reason? I can only speak for myself, but I think alot of others view it similarly. He was great - outstanding - the future in 2012 and everyone loved him. He got hurt. He came back - maybe too soon. He than had SEVERAL chances to prove himself over the better part of two years and it became painfully obvious that he was only great in an offense that was quickly abolished by defenses around the league catching on and shutting it down. See Kaep and Russel Wilson. Only Wilson proved that he too could adapt like defenses did and still be a top qb in this league. Kaep not so much. Griff not at all. Griffs inability to adapt culminated in the preseason game against Detroit when he was just God awful in every aspect of NFL quarterbacking. All the things Schneed just mentioned. So... What is the "bias" you are referring to? Unless it is bias against quarterbacks that cannot play the position?
Do you believe that he can really thrive in this league somewhere else without being able to read blitzes, get rid of the ball, see the field, etc etc?

Edit: want to add that I cannot imagine there is a single true Skins fan that did not want Griff to be RG-3 again and see him succeed for obvious reasons. Especially before we knew what we had in Cousins. It is sad what happened to Griff. Im not the only one with his jersey growing old in my closet. Why on earth would it be personal, or wished for, or welcomed? We are extremely lucky we have KC because if we didnt this franchise would have been up the creek to Hell after Griffs fall from grace.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[QUOTE=DYoungJelly;1140061]A lot like the anti-Jim Zorn bias. Time to move on.[/QUOTE]


[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160304/7b8cca6ee31576bc951b22ca39f8f9fa.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[QUOTE=30gut;1140060]Even I'm looking forward to Griffin being released. The anti-Griffin bias was tiresome.[/QUOTE]

Oh, just stop with the bullshit. The pro-Griffin bias is every bit as tiresome.

Quote me all the stats you want. I saw what I saw and what I saw weren't good.

Just take your RGIII Fathead poster and find a quiet room together.



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Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

^^^Exactly....yawns...tiresome.

Draft, defense, FA normal conversation whatever but dare not to think Griffin sucks? Unacceptable the stats be damned! And positing a non-Griffin sucks position will likely be met with personal attacks.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=punch it in;1140062]but what is the anti Griff bias?[/quote]See post above.



[quote]He than had SEVERAL chances to prove himself over the better part of two years and it became painfully obvious that he was only great in an offense that was quickly abolished by defenses around the league catching on and shutting it down.[/quote]Not sure what you mean here with several chances to prove himself. Griffin had 2 productive years with Shanahan. Some like to say his 2013 was bad but that's not the reality, but again damn the stats right? And for the sake of comparison in 2013 Kirk was terrible.

Griffin's chance to "prove" himself was in 2014 when a Jay became HC. And that chance amounted to 5 games. Then Griffin was benched.

The "offense" that you say was abolished is very much alive and well in the #1Panthers, #5 Seattle, #9 KC, #12 Bills and more teams then ever show read-option or zone-read looks.



[quote]Griff not at all. Griffs inability to adapt culminated in the preseason game against Detroit when he was just God awful in every aspect of NFL quarterbacking.[/quote]If your intent is to have an actual discussion its impossible to have a discussion based on hyperbole. When you say Griffin can't read defenses its obviously an exaggeration. And pointing to a preseason game, even if you think it was bad is an odd referendum against a players entire body of work. I could post breakdowns from various sources that would say that the OL gave him no chance that game. But, I know it will only push us further down the rabbit and I'm the 'bad guy' because I don't agree that Griffin "God awful in every aspect of NFL quarterbacking".

[quote]Do you believe that he can really thrive in this league somewhere else[QUOTE]without being able to read blitzes, get rid of the ball, see the field, etc etc?[/quote]I don't agree that he can't do the above. [quote=30gut;1139863]...I could see Griffin starting and playing well next year...but I could also see him being a back-up that a team could hand the reigns to if he develops in the background or I could see him bouncing around as journeyman Rex Grossmans/Josh Freemanesque back-up for several years.[/quote][/QUOTE]

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

saying griffin can't read defenses is not an exaggeration. look at how much he gets sacked. look at how long he holds the ball. his stats aren't good there, you're just being extremely selective with your memory/analysis. look at the sacks/snap once kirk took over... same line, but magically not terrible with kirk.

if you watch his tape and think he's a great player (2013-2014-2015), then that really brings into question your credibility regarding anything football related. It's painfully obvious he hasn't improved in doing that things he needs to do to get better. he didn't run a pro style offense in college, and he hasn't run one effectively in the NFL as of yet. he decided he didn't want to do the thing he was good at (zone read) and the result speak for themselves. he has the arm, he has the accuracy, he doesn't have pocket presence, he doesn't set protections well, and he doesn't read defenses well. he simply doesn't make those timing throws we see kirk hitting every game, and our playoff chances with him last year would have been hovering right around 0%.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=That Guy;1140073]saying griffin can't read defenses is not an exaggeration. look at how much he gets sacked. look at how long he holds the ball. his stats aren't good there, you're just being extremely selective with your memory/analysis. look at the sacks/snap once kirk took over... same line, but magically not terrible with kirk.[/quote]Even Cooley admits that Griffin can read defenses. I could post breakdowns from Griffin going through his progressions from 2014. Obviously its an exaggeration.

Does Griffin hold the ball too long? Absolutely. Did he take more sacks? Yup.
Not all QBs have a quick throw style. Rothlisberher, Cam, Russell, Rodgers all hold the ball. And learning a pure rhythm drop back passing offense is going to have ups and downs, there will be sacks.

The selectivity in Griffin's production comes from the perception of his 2014 "season". He had 2 bad games before being benched. Go back and look if you doubt it.

[quote]if you watch his tape and think he's a great player (2013-2014-2015), then that really brings into question your credibility regarding anything football related.[/quote]Yet, you know I haven't said he's a great player based off 2013-2014.




[quote]...he decided he didn't want to do the thing he was good at (zone read) and the result speak for themselves.[/quote]Ultimately this is where the Griffin discussions ends up. And I find it odd how this narrative has been accepted as fact. The 1st point of fact is that Griffin did indeed execute read-option in 2013. Also the notion that Mike Shanahan, total control Mike Shanahan was dictated to in terms of offense by Griffin I find very, very amusing.

His 1st year without read-option was with Jay Gruden in 2014, and he was given 5 games before being benched. Griffin's 2014 stats aren't the horrow show most claim, Kirk the much more experienced rhythm drop back passer had as many bad games (or worse) then Griffin. Jay chose to develop Kirk over Griffin, and thankfully that decision worked out.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[QUOTE=30gut;1140071]See post above.







Not sure what you mean here with several chances to prove himself. Griffin had 2 productive years with Shanahan. Some like to say his 2013 was bad but that's not the reality, but again damn the stats right? And for the sake of comparison in 2013 Kirk was terrible.



Griffin's chance to "prove" himself was in 2014 when a Jay became HC. And that chance amounted to 5 games. Then Griffin was benched.



The "offense" that you say was abolished is very much alive and well in the #1Panthers, #5 Seattle, #9 KC, #12 Bills and more teams then ever show read-option or zone-read looks.







If your intent is to have an actual discussion its impossible to have a discussion based on hyperbole. When you say Griffin can't read defenses its obviously an exaggeration. And pointing to a preseason game, even if you think it was bad is an odd referendum against a players entire body of work. I could post breakdowns from various sources that would say that the OL gave him no chance that game. But, I know it will only push us further down the rabbit and I'm the 'bad guy' because I don't agree that Griffin "God awful in every aspect of NFL quarterbacking".[/QUOTE]


His play in 2013 was not good. Not good at all. What stats will never tell you is that when Griff checked down and threw a short pass that went for 11 that there was a wide open guy streaking down the middle of the field who would have scored. All you see three years later is a completion for 11 yards. That kind of shit happened all the time. J knew it. Thats why Griff lost his job. You know it too because u watched the games (i think). There is just no way you come out and say it now. You are too stubborn. Lol. If Griff had a "productive" year in 2013 as you put it than Cousins just had a hall of fame year......

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=30gut;1140069]^^^Exactly....yawns...tiresome.

Draft, defense, FA normal conversation whatever but dare not to think Griffin sucks? Unacceptable the stats be damned! And positing a non-Griffin sucks position will likely be met with personal attacks.[/quote]

It's fine to think Griffin doesn't suck. I [I]don't[/I] think he is god awful at everything QB related. You can post your breakdowns and, believe me, I could post counters from credible sources. However, that discussion is long done. There are plenty of credible, factually/statistically supportable reasons for saying RGIII is simply not likely to succeed as an NFL QB. Do I hope he does? Yes. Based on the data, the breakdowns I've read, and what I have seen with my own eyes, do I believe he will? Nope. Hope he proves me wrong.

You're refusal to acknowledge his significant flaws and lack of progression is truly, truly tiresome. You think he doesn't suck? Great. You're entitled to that opinion. You have made the same points for the last year, quoting the same stats, and played the martyr when people say "You're wrong."


Done. Just. Done.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

30-gut I just ask that after Griff bounces around the league for 2-3 years, and never latches on to another team because no matter what kind of offense they run he cannot play QB, that you simply say "im sorry everyone ".

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

Does the name......Patrick....Ramsey bring anything to mind?

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

the houston texans, they need a QB and his home state ...

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=punch it in;1140076]His play in 2013 was not good. Not good at all. What stats will never tell ...[/quote]Well there you have it. No point in posting the stats or showing how Griffin's 2013 was better then most of Flacco's season or Eli 1st 3ish season etc..... Once we throw out the stats we are free to explain/make any conclusion we like. But one quick point of fact is that in 2013 the best unit on the team was the Griffin lead offense. Defense was near league worst. The special teams was without exaggeration historically bad.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[QUOTE=30gut;1140081]Well there you have it. No point in posting the stats or showing how Griffin's 2013 was better then most of Flacco's season or Eli 1st 3ish season etc..... Once we throw out the stats we are free to explain/make any conclusion we like. But one quick point of fact is that in 2013 the best unit on the team was the Griffin lead offense. Defense was near league worst. The special teams was without exaggeration historically bad.[/QUOTE]


Are you actually quoting part of my post to make your answers look better? Now you are just trolling. Once again in two years when Griff is out of the nfl for good you can apologize. Im done for good with this conversation. The floor is yours. Tell us why he is great and how I am dismissing you.....cant wait.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=Hog1;1140079]Does the name......Patrick....Ramsey bring anything to mind?[/quote]

Yes. Was thinking the exact same thing.

30Gut is to RGIII as Offiss was to Patrick Ramsey.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1140077]You're refusal to acknowledge his significant flaws and lack of progression is truly, truly tiresome.[/quote]And these mischaracterizations are tiresome. Not once have I said Griffin is a QB without flaws.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

One more thing....30 Gut - i agree you never said RG-3 is perfect or anything like that. However you are comparing him to Eli early in his career. Do you think Griff is on his way (barring injuries of course) to having a career (statistically -forget super bowls ) like Eli?

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

"significant" was the adjective I used. I chose it. I meant it. It is a question of degree. He is not merely flawed - as you [I]have[/I] acknowledged in the past. Rather, as most analysts and General Managers who have spoken on the subject have indicated, his flaws are significant road blocks to his ability to succeed as a NFL QB. If you have acknowledged the magnitude of his flaws in the past, so be it. I apologize.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=punch it in;1140085]One more thing....30 Gut - i agree you never said RG-3 is perfect or anything like that. However you are comparing him to Eli early in his career.[/quote]The comparison was made only to put Griffin's 2013 in context.

Predict RGIII's next team
 

[QUOTE=30gut;1140087]The comparison was made only to put Griffin's 2013 in context.[/QUOTE]


And the question was asked only to gauge your thoughts on Griff going forward. So barring injuries and forgetting superbowls do you think Griff is capable of having a career statistically on par with Eli?

Edit : my answer would be no no way and never.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1140086]"significant" was the adjective I used. I chose it. I meant it. It is a question of degree. He is not merely flawed - as you [I]have[/I] acknowledged in the past. Rather, as most analysts and General Managers who have spoken on the subject have indicated, his flaws are significant road blocks to his ability to succeed as a NFL QB. If you have acknowledged the magnitude of his flaws in the past, so be it. I apologize.[/quote]For me Griffin's on the field flaws are the part of the developmental growth of a QB that is transitioning to a rhythm drop back passing game. Those flaws can either be mitigated or exasperated by the scheme. But even at his current level of development I think he could walk into the Bills offense right now and be as productive as Tyrod Taylor.

I also think there was an organizational flaw in hiring the wrong HC to continue his development; which is a flaw external to Griffin.
Another external flaw is Griffin's perception which imo was indelibly skewed by Mike Shanahan's exit strategy of blame. I can't recall a HC ever going that hard against their own QB with incessant media leaks. Not with Jamarcus Russell, not with Mike Vick, Manziel, Kerry Collins etc. And the local sports media, can't blame them its their job, recognized an easy click bait and repeatedly pushed that button on a slow news day.

Like I said before Griffin remains a QB in arrested develop. And his development could remain incomplete if he doesn't find the right organization.

Predict RGIII's next team
 

[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160304/5cf0d0863bf0284606dea0ca79ba35b4.jpg[/IMG]

This is what you think Griff would do in Buffalo next year if they made him the QB?
Edit: no need to really answer as you clearly just said this. Ok. Fair enough. I think he wouldnt make it through one game without being benched.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[quote=punch it in;1140088]And the question was asked only to gauge your thoughts on Griff going forward.[/quote]I've posted my thoughts on Griffin going forward a couple of times in this thread, and posted a quote from it in one of our last few posts.

But here you go: [quote=30gut;1139863]For me....[/quote]

For me Griffin is a QB in arrested development that could possibly start for several teams given the right circumstances.

By arrested development I'm referring to his past. He played in a hybrid offense as a rookie and was phenomenal; then he got hurt. Missed training camp as sophomore and played again in a hybrid offense. 3rd year brought a new regime and scheme change to a true rhythm drop back passing offense. Griffin was afforded 5 games of development with an ankle injury sandwiched in between before the new HC benched and gave up on him after 2 bad games.

The key for Griffin is to either find a team that will meet him at his current level of development and build an offense around him that allows him to be productive while developing. If you look at a QB like Tyrod Taylor I have to believe that Griffin right now could match his level of production in that style of offense or if you look at KC's offense I think Griffin could quickly match Alex Smith's level of production. I also think both of those QBs would have much less success rote "true" drop back passing offenses.

But the question remains is their a team willing to give him that chance and also has the know how and the desire to implement an offense around him? And will they stick with him through a rocky start as Jay/McVay stuck with Kirk then eventually opened up the offense as he developed.

I could see Griffin starting and playing well next year...but I could also see him being a back-up that a team could hand the reigns to if he develops in the background or I could see him bouncing around as journeyman Rex Grossmans/Josh Freemanesque back-up for several years.

I wish him the best. He remains one of the most talented QB prospects I've ever seen and could either become a cautionary tale or redemption story.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

I wonder if we should get take out from China Inn or go to Buffalo Wild Wings after work.
Hmmmm

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

China Inn. Wings get soggy on the way home.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[QUOTE=Alvin Walton;1140094]I wonder if we should get take out from China Inn or go to Buffalo Wild Wings after work.
Hmmmm[/QUOTE]
Lol, no...no...I'm done. Really.

I'd much rather talk draft

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Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;1140096]China Inn. Wings get soggy on the way home.[/QUOTE]


True. Never take out wings. But he did say "go there" if that changes your vote.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

Going there is a different beast. Wings are just OK, but the sauces are awesome.

Re: Predict RGIII's next team
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;1140099]Going there is a different beast. Wings are just OK, but the sauces are awesome.[/QUOTE]


Gotta ask that they fry them extra long. Been a vegan for a few months now but that is the trick if you want good wings.
The sauces are awesome. I agree.