Re: Tax bill
 

OK now that I'm done embarrassing Giantone, let me talk plainly about why bringing cash back from overseas, as it relates to the corporate tax rate, will be so incredibly helpful to our economy. Free education for anybody who's interested.

Until the tax bill went through yesterday, the US Corporate tax rate was 35%. That was way higher than the corporate tax rate in other nations. Ireland is 12.5%. Canada is 15%. China is 25%.

So the way the US Tax rules work is, if you earn profits on goods sold within the USA, that gets taxed at US rates - the 35%. But here's the kicker - [I]how do you know which goods were sold within the USA[/I]?

It's based on the company's address of its corporate headquarters. So take Apple. They sell a ton of iPhones in the US, right? So shouldn't they pay a ton of US taxes? One would think. But they created two subsidiary companies called Apple Sales International and Apple Operations Europe. They put almost all of their patents, including iPhones, in the names of those subsidiaries. Thus, any sales for iPhones, regardless of where in the world they occur, are counted as happening in Ireland, not the United States.

Why did they choose Ireland? Because the tax rate is so low.

So not only do they route most of the company's profits through Ireland, but the cash they have in the bank mostly sits in Irish banks, not US banks. Reason? When the cash earns interest from just sitting there, the interest income accrues to Ireland, not the US. That interest income, again, is taxed by Ireland.

Many companies do this. In fact, many companies recently have "inverted". Meaning, they had a headquarters based in the US, but they chose to buy a company headquartered in a low-tax country, meaning they can route all of their earnings through that low-tax country instead of through the US.

Lowering the corporate tax rate removes the incentive to do that. Will you see every company move their cash back home to US headquarters? No, some will still find their existing spots to be more tax friendly. Apple in Ireland is a good example. But many will.

Keep in mind - much of this money is made on sales in the US. The lower tax rate will bring at least a % of it back into a US address, or at least prevent other countries from doing this in the future.

That cash will then be taxed at US rates, and corporations overall will pay more in US taxes, not less.

Re: Tax bill
 

By the way, in 2014 the Obama administration floated the idea of dropping the corporate tax rate on foreign investment earnings to 19%. It was tabled until after the presidential election because the Rs wanted to own the tax reductions.

So this concept that dropping the corporate tax rate is a partisan issue is bunk. It ended up taking a different form but ultimately everyone agreed that the corporate tax structure required overhaul.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Chico23231;1183838]G1, do you think the sole intention of the Corporate tax rate cut is just to make these entities wealthier? Is that your logic and understanding?[/quote]

"intention " no, result ....yes.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Schneed10;1183851]OK now that I'm done embarrassing Giantone, let me talk plainly about why bringing cash back from overseas, as it relates to the corporate tax rate, will be so incredibly helpful to our economy. Free education for anybody who's interested.

Until the tax bill went through yesterday, the US Corporate tax rate was 35%. That was way higher than the corporate tax rate in other nations. Ireland is 12.5%. Canada is 15%. China is 25%.[/quote]

Sorry, I am to old to get embarrassed ,deal with it.

[url=http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/12/news/economy/trump-us-highest-taxes/index.html]Trump says the U.S. is the highest taxed country in the world. No, it's not. - Oct. 12, 2017[/url]

[url=http://www.businessinsider.com/is-us-highest-taxed-country-like-trump-claims-2017-9]Is US highest taxed country, as Trump claims? - Business Insider[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

G1, simple question - do you agree that as all the media has said, 80% of US citizens will see a bump in take home pay for 2018? (it's a yes or no if you want to keep it simple)

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Schneed10;1183851]OK now that I'm done embarrassing Giantone, let me talk plainly about why bringing cash back from overseas, as it relates to the corporate tax rate, will be so incredibly helpful to our economy. Free education for anybody who's interested.

Until the tax bill went through yesterday, the US Corporate tax rate was 35%. That was way higher than the corporate tax rate in other nations. Ireland is 12.5%. Canada is 15%. China is 25%.

So the way the US Tax rules work is, if you earn profits on goods sold within the USA, that gets taxed at US rates - the 35%. But here's the kicker - [I]how do you know which goods were sold within the USA[/I]?

It's based on the company's address of its corporate headquarters. So take Apple. They sell a ton of iPhones in the US, right? So shouldn't they pay a ton of US taxes? One would think. But they created two subsidiary companies called Apple Sales International and Apple Operations Europe. They put almost all of their patents, including iPhones, in the names of those subsidiaries. Thus, any sales for iPhones, regardless of where in the world they occur, are counted as happening in Ireland, not the United States.

Why did they choose Ireland? Because the tax rate is so low.

So not only do they route most of the company's profits through Ireland, but the cash they have in the bank mostly sits in Irish banks, not US banks. Reason? When the cash earns interest from just sitting there, the interest income accrues to Ireland, not the US. That interest income, again, is taxed by Ireland.

Many companies do this. In fact, many companies recently have "inverted". Meaning, they had a headquarters based in the US, but they chose to buy a company headquartered in a low-tax country, meaning they can route all of their earnings through that low-tax country instead of through the US.

Lowering the corporate tax rate removes the incentive to do that. Will you see every company move their cash back home to US headquarters? No, some will still find their existing spots to be more tax friendly. Apple in Ireland is a good example. But many will.

Keep in mind - much of this money is made on sales in the US. The lower tax rate will bring at least a % of it back into a US address, or at least prevent other countries from doing this in the future.

That cash will then be taxed at US rates, and corporations overall will pay more in US taxes, not less.[/quote]

This is a really good explanation Schneed, my only concern is that as long as it remains profitable to run sales through Ireland for example, it doesn't matter how low our corporate tax rate is. Hiding profits offshore will always happen as long as there is more to gain financially than paying the way it's supposed to be.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=mooby;1183865]This is a really good explanation Schneed, my only concern is that as long as it remains profitable to run sales through Ireland for example, it doesn't matter how low our corporate tax rate is. Hiding profits offshore will always happen as long as there is more to gain financially than paying the way it's supposed to be.[/quote]

That would be true, assuming anybody can just incorporate in Ireland and move everything there. It’s not that simple though, otherwise everyone would be there now. In order to get to Ireland most firms have had to buy an Irish company and merge into that address. Easier said than done.

Some are in China, some in Ireland, some in every nation. Those where the tax rate is above 21 percent (China 25%), those firms are incented to move their base and IP back to the US immediately.

Others, like Apple in Ireland, will certainly stay abroad. That’s why Trump sounds too optimistic. But it will still make a very positive impact, even if not as yuge as Trump likes to think.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Giantone;1183860]Sorry, I am to old to get embarrassed ,deal with it.

[url=http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/12/news/economy/trump-us-highest-taxes/index.html]Trump says the U.S. is the highest taxed country in the world. No, it's not. - Oct. 12, 2017[/url]

[url=http://www.businessinsider.com/is-us-highest-taxed-country-like-trump-claims-2017-9]Is US highest taxed country, as Trump claims? - Business Insider[/url][/quote]

You don’t even understand the difference between what Trump says and what is actually the case. Do you even understand what those pieces say?

Your intellect is too limited for you to continue credibly as part of this conversation.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Giantone;1183860]Sorry, I am to old to get embarrassed ,deal with it.

[url=http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/12/news/economy/trump-us-highest-taxes/index.html]Trump says the U.S. is the highest taxed country in the world. No, it's not. - Oct. 12, 2017[/url]

[url=http://www.businessinsider.com/is-us-highest-taxed-country-like-trump-claims-2017-9]Is US highest taxed country, as Trump claims? - Business Insider[/url][/quote]

I’ll assume you’re too limited to understand what I’m about to say, so I’ll say it instead for others who may be interested.

When Trump says the nation has the highest corporate taxes, he is speaking about the rate. Our rate was 35% until yesterday - the highest in the world as these links clearly state.

Then the article goes on to say but, but, the US firms don’t pay 35% in taxes, they pay less because of loopholes. Yeah, that’s the whole point dummy. They take advantage of the loopholes and park their money overseas so they can AVOID paying the 35%.

If you drop the 35 down to 21, guess what, they don’t have to go through all that effort to avoid it. They’ll simplify their lives and pay 21% in the US instead.

Not all firms will, see my Apple example above, but plenty will, especially those in China.

Re: Tax bill
 

Example. Firm currently pays 100 in taxes to China, and 20 in the US.

Now with the new rate, the firm shifts its base to the US. Now the 20 it was paying to the US goes down to 12, it stops paying the 100 to China, and instead pays 80 to the US.

Add that up. Before, corporation paid 120 in total. Now it pays 92.

Before, the US collected 20. Now it collects 92.

Corporation benefits, US benefits, China loses. This is a simplified illustration but that’s the concept.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Schneed10;1183869]Example. Firm currently pays 100 in taxes to China, and 20 in the US.

Now with the new rate, the firm shifts its base to the US. Now the 20 it was paying to the US goes down to 12, it stops paying the 100 to China, and instead pays 80 to the US.

Add that up. Before, corporation paid 120 in total. Now it pays 92.

Before, the US collected 20. Now it collects 92.

Corporation benefits, US benefits, China loses. This is a simplified illustration but that’s the concept.[/quote]

See this is the difference between you and me.While I do believe you believe that what you have posted is 100% accurate ,I believe in your example that the Firm will stay in Chine due to Labor cost and not taxes .It is why many CEO's have admitted the tax bill break will be use to pay dividends to investors's "[B]not to create jobs".[/B]
Example, Tax rate goes down but trump and daughter Ivanka still will have their clothing line made in China,nothing has moved back to the United States but trumps company make more money.

Found this and it was interesting ........

[url]http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/tax-reform-2[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Giantone;1183873]See this is the difference between you and me.While I do believe you believe that what you have posted is 100% accurate ,I believe in your example that the Firm will stay in Chine due to Labor cost and not taxes .It is why many CEO's have admitted the tax bill break will be use to pay dividends to investors's "[B]not to create jobs".[/B]
Example, Tax rate goes down but trump and daughter Ivanka still will have their clothing line made in China,nothing has moved back to the United States but trumps company make more money.

Found this and it was interesting ........

[url]http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/tax-reform-2[/url][/quote]

Oh my God. Honestly, you're either too stupid, too ill informed, or possibly both, to continue with this conversation.

When companies say they won't bring the money home, they don't mean they would physically move their operations out of China. It means they will route their profits through the US instead of China. In my Apple example, when did I ever say Apple actually makes its iPhones in Ireland?

Physical assets will not move, but the money will. This corporate tax reduction is not about creating jobs, it is about making sure that profits generated actually get taxed by the US. It creates tax revenue, not jobs.

Re: Tax bill
 

I don't understand why so many Americans form opinions about things they don't understand.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Schneed10;1183879]I don't understand why so many Americans form opinions about things they don't understand.[/quote]

especially with so many resources available to them. With G1, it really comes down to one thing...this is a GOP presented legislation...if this would have been similar Dem tax bill he would be arguing for it.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Chico23231;1183880]especially with so many resources available to them. With G1, it really comes down to one thing...this is a GOP presented legislation...if this would have been similar Dem tax bill he would be arguing for it.[/quote]

You're assuming again.


[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEP1acj29-Y[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Giantone;1183883]You're assuming again.


[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEP1acj29-Y[/url][/quote]

No, he's using past experiences and "discussions" with you as a basis for forming an opinion.

Personally, I only will interact with you to a certain degree because you have never displayed much of an ability to use [URL="http://www.umich.edu/~elements/5e/probsolv/strategy/ctskills.htm"]critical thinking skills[/URL], and you often use false dilemnas and other pitfalls to move what you think your argument is.

I don't mean this as a personal attack, because you are a good poster here in the football arena, BUT
when it comes to the debating topics, I really wish you would look at that link and work on your debate skills.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Schneed10;1183879]I don't understand why so many Americans form opinions about things they don't understand.[/quote]

I'm certainly guilty of this on some gut belief type things, maybe even the following reply, :food-smil.

Amuricans have access to a ton of divergent views, we mostly read those
articles which fit our narrative (or are blatantly anti- our opinion which gives a negative feedback loop of reinforcing our belief), so we become more convinced that our opinion holds value against other stated opinions.

Second, we've all heard there are no stupid questions, which is supposed to encourage multiple points of views, but the fact is that while maybe no question is stupid, it's doesn't mean that there are not some anwers which are wrong, or right. (flat earth questions aren't stupid the first time an 8 year old asks it, but if you are still asking it at 22, then you aren't really looking for true answers), which leads us to the final and most important reason

Like I said to G1, most US citizens have basic critical thinking skills at best. It should be a 9th to 10th grade class, maybe younger, and with lots of reinforcement training. but it's not :(

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Chico23231;1183880]especially with so many resources available to them. With G1, it really comes down to one thing...this is a GOP presented legislation...if this would have been similar Dem tax bill he would be arguing for it.[/quote]

No, I would not.


[url]http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/tax-reform-2[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1183836]I think a lot of the opponents of this are arguing semantics. 80% of the public will see positive numbers from this for the next 7 years. That seems like a good thing.

Further, I doubt that the 20% that see "pain" will see overarching NEW federal tax burdens killing them.[LIST][*][B]it's funny to me that the ones who may see the most pain are the ones who have the highest state taxes, simple solution, vote in local legislatures that will reduce state outlays - I'm looking at you CA and NY)[/B][*][I]also funny, the high tax states like NY, NJ, CA, DC, OR, or CT, how many voted for Trump or Republicans? Is it really THAT shocking that they see the least benefit or are going to receive the least consideration[/I]. [*]Here is a map of the senate election results - geography quiz - how many republican senators were elected from NY, NJ, CA, DC, OR, or CT?
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/2016_US_Senate_election_results_map.svg/350px-2016_US_Senate_election_results_map.svg.png[/IMG][*]geography quiz #2 - how many high tax states have a plurality of Republicans in Congress? again, here is a map of the House votes by party holding plurality in each state to help you out
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/115th_US_Congress_House.png/400px-115th_US_Congress_House.png[/IMG][/LIST][/quote]

To the bold section. I think that was designed to directly target high state taxes by removing the federal deduction to fit congressional republican agendas. High state taxes allow states to provide essential services and rely less heavily on the federal government. Most federal money takers are low tax states. I think this causes a push towards less state reliance and decreased state taxes and will cause the states to rely more on federal funds to meet essential needs which is what congress wants imo.

To the italicized section. That was also a slight towards "blue states" Not having a voice since the republicans basically eliminated the democrats from the conversation. Is that because of an agenda to push those states into turmoil in order to gain political influence or partisan politics as usual?

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1183887]To the bold section. I think that was designed to directly target high state taxes by removing the federal deduction to fit congressional republican agendas. High state taxes allow states to provide essential services and rely less heavily on the federal government. Most federal money takers are low tax states. [B]I think this causes a push towards less state reliance and decreased state taxes and will cause the states to rely more on federal funds to meet essential needs which is what congress wants imo[/B].

To the italicized section. That was also a slight towards "blue states" Not having a voice since the republicans basically eliminated the democrats from the conversation. [B] Is that because of an agenda to push those states into turmoil in order to gain political influence or partisan politics as usual[/B]?[/quote]
to the first bolded part, that's an interesting take - you think Republicans want to push states to rely on more federal spending by reducing the power of state exemptions to federal tax.

on the second bolded part: Blue states are going to use attacks on Trump to gain more local power so I doubt Republicans are trying to push those states into turmoil (personal bias belief: most Blue states already are in some turmoil from years of Democratic agendas being implemented and failing). I think it's more likely a nod from Republicans that Democratic voters in those states are not going to switch, so why try to appease them when the base that has won the Republicans both state and federal elections can be strengthened by reducing things like State and Local deductions.

Re: Tax bill
 

credskinsrule, is this what this board has come to? you personally attacking another member? if you dont think giant1 is up to your level as far as some topics, why not skip over it? no need to try and embarass someone here. we are supposed to be amongst friends

Re: Tax bill
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;1183921]credskinsrule, is this what this board has come to? you personally attacking another member? if you dont think giant1 is up to your level as far as some topics, why not skip over it? no need to try and embarass someone here. we are supposed to be amongst friends[/QUOTE]Wait. As I said G1 is a good poster in the football threads. I was pointing out IN RESPONSE TO HIS COMMENT TO CHICO that his debate skills aren't very good. I tried to make it constructive criticism, and I didn't bring my d*** size into it.

If you felt it was over the top I am sorry for that, but G1 has been on the board for a long time and has shown a particular ability in debate topics. Chico didnt need to assume to know G1s opinions and I don't feel its particularly inappropriate to encourage critical thinking skills at any point in time.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1183925]Wait. As I said G1 is a good poster in the football threads. I was pointing out IN RESPONSE TO HIS COMMENT TO CHICO that his debate skills aren't very good. I tried to make it constructive criticism, and I didn't bring my d*** size into it.

If you felt it was over the top I am sorry for that, but G1 has been on the board for a long time and has shown a particular ability in debate topics. Chico didnt need to assume to know G1s opinions and I don't feel its particularly inappropriate to encourage critical thinking skills at any point in time.[/quote]

Post #64 I was responding to Schneed10 not you.

Re: Tax bill
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1183927]Post #64 I was responding to Schneed10 not you.[/QUOTE]My comment was also about Schneeds posts not yours.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1183930]My comment was also about Schneeds posts not yours.[/quote]

I apologize if I was incorrect ,I just never saw his name in the comments.

Re: Tax bill
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1183931]I apologize if I was incorrect ,I just never saw his name in the comments.[/QUOTE]Yeah I just referenced the crass comment without specifying. I thought it was clear that Schneed initially was far more personal and negative (As he can be) than my comment.

But whatever it is all good and hopefully you weren't personally overly distraught by my comments on your debating skills

Re: Tax bill
 

Debating skills don’t mean anything if you don’t know anything. Get educated before you sound off.

Re: Tax bill
 

[url=http://time.com/money/5066014/billionaire-michael-bloomberg-the-tax-bill-is-an-economically-indefensible-blunder/]Michael Bloomberg: GOP Tax Bill Is an Economically Indefensible Blunder' | Money[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=MTK;1184039][url=http://time.com/money/5066014/billionaire-michael-bloomberg-the-tax-bill-is-an-economically-indefensible-blunder/]Michael Bloomberg: GOP Tax Bill Is an Economically Indefensible Blunder' | Money[/url][/quote]

One thing's for sure, this is going to either be the literally greatest economic boosting bill ever seen or it's going to make the hole we're in hella deeper.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=MTK;1184039][url=http://time.com/money/5066014/billionaire-michael-bloomberg-the-tax-bill-is-an-economically-indefensible-blunder/]Michael Bloomberg: GOP Tax Bill Is an Economically Indefensible Blunder' | Money[/url][/quote]

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/national-home-prices-expected-hit-224317213.html[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

Worst case scenario .... 4-8 years from now, republicans will suddenly become deficit hawks again and demand cuts to medicare, medicaid and social security to off set the corporate and estate tax cuts .. and health care system implodes bc without mandate, affordable care cant be funded but republicans knew this and did nothing to fix it.

Not a fan at all with republicans reducing the amount of SALT deductible to 10k. Thats clearly favoring one group of Americans at expense of others. Not cool.

Ill wait to see how it plays out. Im middle of the middle class. Make 89k per year, own a 240k townhouse, 1 kid, 1 car. But this does seem to be a rushed hatchet job with many cracks.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=over the mountain;1184115]Worst case scenario .... 4-8 years from now, republicans will suddenly become deficit hawks again and demand cuts to medicare, medicaid and social security to off set the corporate and estate tax cuts .. and health care system implodes bc without mandate, affordable care cant be funded but republicans knew this and did nothing to fix it.

[B]Not a fan at all with republicans reducing the amount of SALT deductible to 10k. Thats clearly favoring one group of Americans at expense of others. Not cool. [/B]

Ill wait to see how it plays out. Im middle of the middle class. Make 89k per year, own a 240k townhouse, 1 kid, 1 car. But this does seem to be a rushed hatchet job with many cracks.[/quote]

I am curious about the bolded part. The people who live in high tax states have voted for that tax, likewise the people who live in low tax states have voted for lower taxes. If I live in a state that has lower taxes, under the former tax code wasn't the government favoring those who paid more state taxes?

It's really an interesting dilemna, I think. Either way you go that part of the tax code is going to favor one group over the other.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1184117]I am curious about the bolded part. The people who live in high tax states have voted for that tax, likewise the people who live in low tax states have voted for lower taxes. If I live in a state that has lower taxes, under the former tax code wasn't the government favoring those who paid more state taxes?

It's really an interesting dilemna, I think. Either way you go that part of the tax code is going to favor one group over the other.[/quote]

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/gma/york-residents-rush-file-property-taxes-rules-effect-114803514--abc-news-topstories.html[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

I was curious and Maryland looks to be at the low end of the high tax states (36th where Alaska is 1st as the lowest).

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Giantone;1184121][url]https://www.yahoo.com/gma/york-residents-rush-file-property-taxes-rules-effect-114803514--abc-news-topstories.html[/url][/quote]

Sounds like NY will get a windfall of early tax money. See Trump even gave liberals in NY a Christmas present ;).

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1184117]I am curious about the bolded part. The people who live in high tax states have voted for that tax, likewise the people who live in low tax states have voted for lower taxes. [B]If I live in a state that has lower taxes, under the former tax code wasn't the government favoring those who paid more state taxes? [/B]

It's really an interesting dilemna, I think. Either way you go that part of the tax code is going to favor one group over the other.[/quote]

I would say "no" but I honestly dont know enough to make an educated answer. You arent taxing the same dollar bill twice.

Re states voting for higher state taxes at their own peril .. the liberal playbook says to point out that blue states like NY and CA take less federal dollars per than Alabama, New mexico, kentucky, mississippi, montana etc ..

Do we want a federal tax code that rewards states that rely federal aid or do we want to encourage states to not depend on federal aid?

Re: Tax bill
 

Just found out in my 2 oclock...getting a little bonus based on the Tax Plan. Thanks DT!

Re: Tax bill
 

So yeah about those AT&T bonuses...

[url]https://www.mediaite.com/online/trump-praises-att-bonuses-but-silent-about-atts-recent-layoffs/[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=MTK;1184138]So yeah about those AT&T bonuses...

[URL]https://www.mediaite.com/online/trump-praises-att-bonuses-but-silent-about-atts-recent-layoffs/[/URL][/quote]

Maybe the layoffs are paying for those bonuses! Lol you know you won't hear a peep out of Trump about the layoffs. It's just corporate restructuring, those 1000 workers were bums anyways.

Tax bill
 

Don’t worry folks plenty of jobs coming down the line... lots of trickling down. It will be tremendous.