Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1185486]Last game of the season and it was 10 degrees, no excuse but def not shocked by it. Pro players do this all over the league in games like this. Not just the skins[/quote]

I am. Last game of the season. Last chance for some of those players to put some great plays on film for next season, NFC East division rival, on the road. No excuse at all.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=metalskins;1185537]I am. Last game of the season. Last chance for some of those players to put some great plays on film for next season, NFC East division rival, on the road. No excuse at all.[/quote]

u are shocked that we packed it in? We have all seen this many times with other teams, even some we have played later in the season... Denver for example.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=MTK;1185493]One game doesn’t define the entire season[/quote]

I don't think anybody was implying that.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1185538]u are shocked that we packed it in? We have all seen this many times with other teams, even some we have played later in the season... Denver for example.[/quote]

It should be shocking for any professional team.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=metalskins;1185557]It should be shocking for any professional team.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree.

Like you said this is a professional team. The only people who had anything to prove were the players not under contract.

Everybody else didn't want to have a career ending injury in what really was a meaningless game.

There are two totally different perspectives, that of the fans and that of the players.

These guys are pros. It is different than any other level.

Why should the players under contract have gotten up for the game? Serious question.

Cooley predicted this in the week leading up to the last game and questioned the wisdom of raising expectations that there was some sort of moral victory that would carry over to next year.

At the time, I bought the hype and really wanted them to win and make a good showing.

The games to be pissed about are New Orleans and Dallas.

The giants game really was meaningless.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

What we sometimes forget as fans is that there are very few "meaningless games" for pro athletes,maybe there were meaningless for us as fans but not for the players.These players are playing for their livelihood and their reputations .There are only 32 NFL teams ...the jobs are limited and the last thing any of these teams want are quitters and the last thing a play wants to be thought of as is a quitter. The new Giants GM came in and took care of that problem with them.Those players will have a hard time finding a job in the NFL.As I said those games might not mean squat to us as fans but don't take it for granted with the players.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=Giantone;1185580]What we sometimes forget as fans is that there are very few "meaningless games" for pro athletes,maybe there were meaningless for us as fans but not for the players.These players are playing for their livelihood and their reputations .There are only 32 NFL teams ...the jobs are limited and the last thing any of these teams want are quitters and the last thing a play wants to be thought of as is a quitter. The new Giants GM came in and took care of that problem with them.Those players will have a hard time finding a job in the NFL.As I said those games might not mean squat to us as fans but don't take it for granted with the players.[/quote]

Of the Redskins under contract next year, whose career will be hurt by the last Giants game?

Give a couple examples please.

I made the distinction between the players trying to get signed versus the players under contract for a reason.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

You guys sure are willing to make a lot of excuses. Do you accept mediocrity in your lives, too?

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=Schneed10;1185597]You guys sure are willing to make a lot of excuses. Do you accept mediocrity in your lives, too?[/quote]

Haha. Nice. Competitors should never accept losing. Ever. Especially if your fucking job is to win. They got the same amount for week 17 as week 2 on their paychecks.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=Schneed10;1185597]You guys sure are willing to make a lot of excuses. Do you accept mediocrity in your lives, too?[/quote]

Too funny.

You guys should get together and organize a pep rally to fire the players up next Week 17 after playoff elimination.

A bonfire, just like in the movies.

Maybe transcribe a Lombardi speech and put it on the bus seats on the way to the game.

That game will have zero effect on the beginning of next season just like last year's didn't effect the start this year.

These guys are pros that are either trying to play out their contract or get one.

Assuming otherwise is pretty naive.

But whatever, cut somebody on the fence to set an example Jeff Fisher style. Jay can look super tough and the stars who are getting paid will play exactly the same, and the guys trying to become stars will still play hard.

Rah Rah Rah. Go team! LOL.

I do like your spirit though.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1185609]Too funny.

You guys should get together and organize a pep rally to fire the players up next Week 17 after playoff elimination.

A bonfire, just like in the movies.

Maybe transcribe a Lombardi speech and put it on the bus seats on the way to the game.

That game will have zero effect on the beginning of next season just like last year's didn't effect the start this year.

These guys are pros that are either trying to play out their contract or get one.

Assuming otherwise is pretty naive.

But whatever, cut somebody on the fence to set an example Jeff Fisher style. Jay can look super tough and the stars who are getting paid will play exactly the same, and the guys trying to become stars will still play hard.

Rah Rah Rah. Go team! LOL.

I do like your spirit though.[/quote]

Not gonna lie, bonfires are awesome!

If people are just playing out their contracts thats lame, I know its not the same, but I have pride of ownership of my work. Even if you're good enough to get away with mailing it in, doesn't mean you shouldn't be embarrassed to do so.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1185610]Not gonna lie, bonfires are awesome!

If people are just playing out their contracts thats lame, I know its not the same, but I have pride of ownership of my work. Even if you're good enough to get away with mailing it in, doesn't mean you shouldn't be embarrassed to do so.[/quote]

Ideally, I agree with you.

With the way contracts are in the NFL, these guys are all more independent contractors than anything.

Knowing the team would move on from half the roster in a hot minute, they were watching the clock the whole game hoping to be on a couch rather than undergoing an MRI Monday morning.

College is college and the NFL is the NFL. I get the idea, it just isn't reality at this level.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

Honest question: Would Belichick, or Gibbs, accept their team taking it easy on a "meaningless" game? Not a game at the end of the season when they are resting their starters for the playoffs (wish we were that good, lol), but a game at the end of the season when we are out of the playoffs period?

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1185584]Of the Redskins under contract next year, whose career will be hurt by the last Giants game?

Give a couple examples please.

I made the distinction between the players trying to get signed versus the players under contract for a reason.[/quote]

As I said before .The fans think one way the players another .I have no idea who is under contract for the Redskins and don't pretend to ,same as I don't pretend to know what player quit on the team if anyone.
The Giants had a player come right out and say it,......he is gone .A fans perspective and a GM's or front Office person perspective are two different things.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1185615]Honest question: Would Belichick, or Gibbs, accept their team taking it easy on a "meaningless" game? Not a game at the end of the season when they are resting their starters for the playoffs (wish we were that good, lol), but a game at the end of the season when we are out of the playoffs period?[/quote]

The short answer is I don't know if they accepted it.

But it happened! (At least with Belichick in Cleveland)

When Belichick was the Browns head coach, his team lost the week 17 game 4 out of 5 years (from 1991 to 1995). In 1994 they made the playoffs and won the last game of the regular season.

There were fans in Cleveland saying at the time would Lombardi or Landry have accepted this?!?

I got tired of looking and have already invested more time into this discussion than I want to. You can look up Gibbs and Belichick's other stuff if you want.

Again, I don't think this "proves" anything, I just don't think it matters that much one way or the other.

I do think Belichick and Gibbs are great communicators and great at relating to the human animal. I also believe they are brilliant and would recognize that they have to be real with men, not college kids, about what is at stake in a meaningless week 17 game.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1185619]The short answer is I don't know if they accepted it.

But it happened! (At least with Belichick in Cleveland)

When Belichick was the Browns head coach, his team lost the week 17 game 4 out of 5 years (from 1991 to 1995). In 1994 they made the playoffs and won the last game of the regular season.

There were fans in Cleveland saying at the time would Lombardi or Landry have accepted this?!?

I got tired of looking and have already invested more time into this discussion than I want to. You can look up Gibbs and Belichick's other stuff if you want.

Again, I don't think this "proves" anything, I just don't think it matters that much one way or the other.

I do think Belichick and Gibbs are great communicators and great at relating to the human animal. I also believe they are brilliant and would recognize that they have to be real with men, not college kids, about what is at stake in a meaningless week 17 game.[/quote]

Saying that a bad team loses the final game 4 out of 5 times isn't proof the coach was sandbagging it. And one of those losing seasons was when the Browns relocation controversy was ongoing, not just a case of playing a normal "meaningless" game.

I liked Mike Shanahan's take on being in the middle of a losing season here in 2012: It was time for evaluations. He had to back off that statement publicly, but the original statement seemed like something he, Belichick, and Gibbs would say rather than let the team slide on a "meaningless" game.

Good teams don't sandbag games for draft picks, give up in games when playoffs are out of reach. They build a winning culture through the ups and downs.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1185619]
There were fans in Cleveland saying at the time would Lombardi or Landry have accepted this!







I do think Belichick and Gibbs are great communicators and great at relating to the human animal. I also believe they are brilliant and would recognize that they have to be real with men, not college kids, about what is at stake in a meaningless week 17 game.[/quote]


Two things,

1) Fans root and speak from their heart,be it in love or anger ,very little actual knowledge is involved which is why it should be taken very lightly.


2) I agree with your opinion of both coachs but I look at it this way when those players are playing at a level were your coach is one of those two HOF coach's they are not "college kids" and should not have to be told,they are coach's not baby sitters.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=hailgreen28;1185622]saying that a bad team loses the final game 4 out of 5 times isn't proof the coach was sandbagging it. And one of those losing seasons was when the browns relocation controversy was ongoing, not just a case of playing a normal "meaningless" game.

I liked mike shanahan's take on being in the middle of a losing season here in 2012: It was time for evaluations. He had to back off that statement publicly, but the original statement seemed like something he, belichick, and gibbs would say rather than let the team slide on a "meaningless" game.

Good teams don't sandbag games for draft picks, give up in games when playoffs are out of reach. They build a winning culture through the ups and downs.[/quote]

What is your solution? What action should the team take based on the week 17 giants game?

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=Giantone;1185625]Two things,

1) Fans root and speak from their heart,be it in love or anger ,very little actual knowledge is involved which is why it should be taken very lightly.


2) I agree with your opinion of both coachs but I look at it this way when those players are playing at a level were your coach is one of those two HOF coach's they are not "college kids" and should not have to be told,they are coach's not baby sitters.[/quote]

Totally agree. If you need a coach to "inspire" players at the pro level, you need different players.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;1184363]All the speculation is a moot point. Now let’s replace Bruce Allen, Kowitca and Hillard, sign Cousins and everything will be ok[/QUOTE]



If you think Gruden is a good coach it will be. I personally do not.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1185626]What is your solution? What action should the team take based on the week 17 giants game?[/quote]

Same thing as every game. Make an evaluation in context with the other games. Don't just blow it off, and make sure the players know every game is important to building a winning culture. I agree with your post above. If you really need to inspire your players, you need different players.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/16/source-some-steelers-limited-partners-want-a-coaching-change/]Source: Some Steelers limited partners want a coaching change – ProFootballTalk[/url]


If he hits the market, would you rather have Tomlin right now??

[url]https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/steelers-owners-reportedly-lobbying-art-rooney-to-fire-mike-tomlin-after-playoff-debacle/[/url]

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

Originally Posted by skinsfan69 View Post
Gruden has been a hc for 4 years and still can't manage the clock.

[quote=MTK;1185177]Andy Reid says hold my beer bro[/quote]

And Tomlin pulled this shit for a chance to go to the AFC Championship game:

[url=http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/01/mike-tomlin-explains-defends-onside-kick-decision/]Mike Tomlin Explains, Defends Onside Kick Decision - Steelers Depot[/url]

This decision was a killer.

Its subjective, but still vet coaches still struggle with clock management.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

Yes, I would. It's not debatable either, Tomlin is better than Gruden.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

Did Tomlin win with a team he built? I can't remember if that Cards game was with him there long enough?

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=mooby;1185869]Yes, I would. It's not debatable either, Tomlin is better than Gruden.[/quote]

Tomlin has been/is stacked with maybe the most talent in the league over the last 4 years...he's been a major disappointment.

And the fact he been talking about the Patriots like an obsession this year...I think its a terrible example to his team bc they turn around I did the same thing.

If Im a Pitttsturd fan, Im not happy with the Coach or the teams attitude.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

Ill say this, if Todd "the Tequila Cowboy" Haley gets let go, Id rather hire him than Tomlin.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

Tomlin is definitely overrated, Steelers fans have wanted to move on for a while, granted fans always see their own situation in a much more negative light than outsiders do

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1185870]Did Tomlin win with a team he built? I can't remember if that Cards game was with him there long enough?[/quote]

Cowher retired after '06, Tomlin won the SB in his 2nd year with the team. I think that's enough time to give him credit for it.

S/N I also believe this discussion is pointless, even if Bill B. was on the market we wouldn't go after him due to Gruden's extension. Not sure it would sent the right message to the players either.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=MTK;1185874]Tomlin is definitely overrated, Steelers fans have wanted to move on for a while, granted fans always see their own situation in a much more negative light than outsiders do[/quote]

116-60 record is very good but he is also in a historically bad division.

8-7 playoff record tells more of the story IMO, BUT He did win a SB (cowhers team) but still he did win one.

Jon Gruden didn't have this good a record and people think he's god.

Tomlin has also never had a losing season, that is even more impressive because Ben has missed games.

I'd take him over Jay in a heartbeat, he at least gambles more than not...

4&1 on the 40? Jay is punting 95% of the time.

Plus he's from VA, be kinda cool to have a coach from the area.

[url]https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/TomlMi0.htm[/url]

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

Tomlin and Jon Gruden are the two of the most overrated coaches in the history of the league. Gruden actually had a LOSING record his last 6 years in TB and yet he has had teams begging him to coach. I don't get it at all.

Tomlin should have been fired after the game Sun after the onside kick. You basically had 3 timeouts. All you had to do was stop that juggernaut offense of the Jags, get a 3 and out and get the ball back. These coaches sometimes just do the dumbest shit and choke just like the players do. Tomlin choked almost as worse as the Saints DB.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[url]https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/2017-adjusted-games-lost[/url]

When we looked at AGL for head coaches last year, Jay Gruden was only surpassed by Mike McCoy's San Diego teams. After Washington finished last in AGL in 2017, we can say that Gruden has had the most injured teams of any coach since 2002. This 2017 total does not even include anything for safety Su'a Cravens, who shocked everyone when he decided to retire a week before the regular season. He was placed on an exempt list and missed the entire season after getting treated for post-concussion syndrome. Middle linebacker Mason Foster (11.3 AGL) and first-round rookie Jonathan Allen (11.0 AGL) were Washington's two biggest losses by AGL. The skill positions also lost tight end Jordan Reed (8.3 AGL), running backs Rob Kelley (8.6 AGL) and Chris Thompson (6.1 AGL), and wide receiver Terrelle Pryor (7.1 AGL) for extended periods of time. As we'll see next week in the unit breakdowns, the depth of injuries along the offensive line really pushed Washington over the top here. Washington had a league-high 10 players incur at least 6.0 AGL.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1191434][url]https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/2017-adjusted-games-lost[/url]

When we looked at AGL for head coaches last year, Jay Gruden was only surpassed by Mike McCoy's San Diego teams. After Washington finished last in AGL in 2017, we can say that Gruden has had the most injured teams of any coach since 2002. This 2017 total does not even include anything for safety Su'a Cravens, who shocked everyone when he decided to retire a week before the regular season. He was placed on an exempt list and missed the entire season after getting treated for post-concussion syndrome. Middle linebacker Mason Foster (11.3 AGL) and first-round rookie Jonathan Allen (11.0 AGL) were Washington's two biggest losses by AGL. The skill positions also lost tight end Jordan Reed (8.3 AGL), running backs Rob Kelley (8.6 AGL) and Chris Thompson (6.1 AGL), and wide receiver Terrelle Pryor (7.1 AGL) for extended periods of time. As we'll see next week in the unit breakdowns, the depth of injuries along the offensive line really pushed Washington over the top here. Washington had a league-high 10 players incur at least 6.0 AGL.[/quote]


Thanks for sharing.

So we were 25th the year before as well...not good.

My question is when it comes to conditioning, training, and getting your body ready for the season, what can be done? Just ringing this up to dumb luck is naïve...Ive heard from multiple reporters that Jay's training camp is really lax....since its here in Richmond that been a constant theme of how loose camp is...Seems like last season should be awake up call.

You also see the same teams at the bottom in both years, Miami, Chicago, etc. Not a group of team I want to be apart of.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1191434][url]https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/2017-adjusted-games-lost[/url]

When we looked at AGL for head coaches last year, Jay Gruden was only surpassed by Mike McCoy's San Diego teams. After Washington finished last in AGL in 2017, we can say that Gruden has had the most injured teams of any coach since 2002. This 2017 total does not even include anything for safety Su'a Cravens, who shocked everyone when he decided to retire a week before the regular season. He was placed on an exempt list and missed the entire season after getting treated for post-concussion syndrome. Middle linebacker Mason Foster (11.3 AGL) and first-round rookie Jonathan Allen (11.0 AGL) were Washington's two biggest losses by AGL. The skill positions also lost tight end Jordan Reed (8.3 AGL), running backs Rob Kelley (8.6 AGL) and Chris Thompson (6.1 AGL), and wide receiver Terrelle Pryor (7.1 AGL) fextended periods of time. As we'll see next week in the unit breakdowns, the depth of injuries along the offensive line really pushed Washington over the top here. Washington had a league-high 10 players incur at least 6.0 AGL.[/quote]




I think is a better link to track the games missed.

[url]https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/2017_injuries.htm[/url]

Redskins ended the season with 24 players on IR ,the Giants had 29 both team were devastated by injuries.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

I'd like to go back and research this list over the last 5 years or so, it seems like we always have tons of injuries and this list proves it.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=Chico23231;1191435]Thanks for sharing.

So we were 25th the year before as well...not good.

My question is when it comes to conditioning, training, and getting your body ready for the season, what can be done? Just ringing this up to dumb luck is naïve...Ive heard from multiple reporters that Jay's training camp is really lax....since its here in Richmond that been a constant theme of how loose camp is...Seems like last season should be awake up call.

You also see the same teams at the bottom in both years, Miami, Chicago, etc. Not a group of team I want to be apart of.[/quote]

just glancing through the article I saw that we listed 94 players as questionable on injury reports, Balt had 89, and NE had 87 - all other teams had less then 80. Then we had the 6th highest percent that played. (Balt had the 2nd). It makes me wonder if the pressure to play when injured was a factor at all.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

It makes you appreciate Jay a little to be honest, the guy has us around .500 every yr and look at what he has had to deal with, on top of a QB drama every yr....

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

Hey man injuries are no excuse, next man up

/sarcasm

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=MTK;1191454]Hey man injuries are no excuse, next man up

[/quote]

I agree.

Re: Jay Gruden expected to return in 2018
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1191445]It makes you appreciate Jay a little to be honest, the guy has us around .500 every yr and look at what he has had to deal with, on top of a QB drama every yr....[/quote]

This is a good point...I don’t hear excuses from the staff or
Team either. Those numbers were shocking