Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=redwagonskins]I'd love to not jump to conclusions [/QUOTE]


just a little fun trivia.

in what movie did someone have the idea and finally invent the "jump to conlusions mat" ?

hint, he had the idea when he worked in a office and made the mat after collecting a huge settlement for getting into an automobile accident that caused him to be in a wheelchair.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=wolfeskins]just a little fun trivia.

in what movie did someone have the idea and finally invent the "jump to conlusions mat" ?

hint, he had the idea when he worked in a office and made the mat after collecting a huge settlement for getting into an automobile accident that caused him to be in a wheelchair.[/QUOTE]

Office Space

Re: Talyor 2 Be Charged 4 Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=Prop13]I'm with you Paintrain, we should do what we can to get our money's worth.

...and in that spirit, I'd hope something like the following might happen:

*ring* *mumble*

Taylor's Mom: "Sean, Mr. Rosenhaus is on the phone."

Sean Taylor: "What does he want?"

Taylor's Mom: "He says that contract renegotiation isn't goin' so well anymore."

Sean Taylor: "Tell him I'll call him back."

*mumble* *click*

...forty-five seconds later...

*ring* *mumble*

Taylor's Mom: "Sean, Mr. Gibbs is on the phone."

Sean Taylor: "What does he want?"

Taylor's Mom: "He says you can't come to camp unless you renegotiate your contract."

Sean Taylor: "Huh? ...Let me talk to him!"

Taylor's Mom: "He hung up."[/QUOTE]

:laughing-

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Office Space[/QUOTE]


you are correct sir.
did i give to much of a hint or did you know it anyway?

by the way, office space is one of the funniest movies i've ever seen.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=wolfeskins]you are correct sir.
did i give to much of a hint or did you know it anyway?

by the way, office space is one of the funniest movies i've ever seen.[/QUOTE]

I knew it right away, definitely one of the funniest movies ever

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

So basically, Taylor rolls up on some punks that he says stole his car, brandishes a firearm and punches one guy. They had it coming. If my car gets stolen and I'm riding around trying to find it and do, you better believe somebody's getting f*cked up.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

I'd really just like to say good work to Ramseyfan. I just read through the whole thread, and you did a very impressive job of keeping your head and reporting important facts about the law. Need more like you to post useful threads instead of "let's cut/trade Taylor."

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

Unreal. I still cant believe that someone would be so stupid to play private detective themselves and try to settle this with thugery.

Makes you wonder if there isn't more to this story that ST and the victims are leaving out of court.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

I think for the good of the team, our man Ade should take the fall and say that it was him, not ST

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

lol that's harsh. or maybe brunell could be like, yo it was me and my homies, not sean. that way he'd actually have a purpose.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=BossHog]Any Warpath lawyers on board? :oink:[/QUOTE]

If ST can wait another two years for me to finish law school, he can have a free and fresh newbie lawyer. :headbange

I've taken all the criminal law cases I'll ever take in law school, I've "paralegaled" for three years in a law firm's criminal law division, and I'll be "representing" criminals in the Oxford, Wisconsin federal prison next semester (in my clinical semester for Legal Assistance to Incarcerated Persons). With another attorney supervising me, I think I can actually represent (wind him up in jail) Taylor this year if he wants me too.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=e16bball]I'd really just like to say good work to Ramseyfan. I just read through the whole thread, and you did a very impressive job of keeping your head and reporting important facts about the law. Need more like you to post useful threads instead of "let's cut/trade Taylor."[/QUOTE]

Do you take credit cards, checks or money orders?

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

"TAYLOR'S CAREER COULD BE OVER.
He is in some deep shit friends. Looks like he might do 10-15. It's a damn shame because this kid really had potential to be one of the great ones. Hope we can get some of that money back"


The starting offensive line of the 1991 Redskins will fly out of my ass before Sean Taylor does 10-15 years. This has plea bargain written all over it, plus he's a first time offender, and oh yeah, he's an NFL player. He may need to be cut or traded (preferably traded..well preferably kept, but if its decided he has to go) but the chances of him doing serious time are zero.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]I think for the good of the team, our man Ade should take the fall and say that it was him, not ST[/QUOTE]


Classic! :lol:

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Do you take credit cards, checks or money orders?[/QUOTE]

Lol. Money orders, certainly, checks, most definitely. But for credit cards, it's PayPal or nothin' lol.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

There's going to be an awful lot coming out in the upcoming day's, until I hear the whole story I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

We don't even know who his accusers are or their creditability, for all we know the charges could be dropped by the end of the week, we have been wrong before about him, might as well wait and see.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=e16bball]Lol. Money orders, certainly, checks, most definitely. But for credit cards, it's PayPal or nothin' lol.[/QUOTE]

my friend owns a business on the border of illinios (ISP) and he wont accept out of state checks for anything, since they're from another state, its impossible to get the money from bounced checks a lot of the time... he says they're only useful as toilet paper... seems less and less placess are taking checks now and more and more take plastic (10 years ago NO ONE would think of paying with a Visa at McD's)

and i love office space too... i'm that guy... (obviously)

"what would you do if you had a million dollars?"
--"nothing... i'd just sit around and do absolutely nothing"

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

sean taylor,what a complete and total idiot!

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

Atleast this adds to his misteek(we don't hear from him, atleast we know he is alive and well)
regardless of whatever this will follow him for a while. People still think of OJ as a murder and people think that Ray had a part of a double murder, people think people were drunk when they run others over but most of these people who do these things get off because they have money. Regardless of what happens people will remember this, as we do for others who have been in this situation.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=Ron Burgundy and Gold]"TAYLOR'S CAREER COULD BE OVER.
He is in some deep shit friends. Looks like he might do 10-15. It's a damn shame because this kid really had potential to be one of the great ones. Hope we can get some of that money back"


The starting offensive line of the 1991 Redskins will fly out of my ass before Sean Taylor does 10-15 years. This has plea bargain written all over it, plus he's a first time offender, and oh yeah, he's an NFL player. He may need to be cut or traded (preferably traded..well preferably kept, but if its decided he has to go) but the chances of him doing serious time are zero.[/QUOTE]

c'mon, who said he could do 10-15... for aggravated assault???

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

After reading the WT article, sounds like Flordia has a mandatory minimum and he could face 20 years if he actually fired the gun.

Ok maybe this isn't so good after all.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

I wish I could say that any of this surprised me, but this is about the type of behavior I would come to expect from ST. Wonder if anyone else is willing to try to teach this kid a lesson yet besides me. Of course he still hasn't missed any mandatory team events, so I guess we can all hold our heads high and proclaim that this guy deserves to be our starting safety.

Anyways, that's all I'm saying about any of that.

A few clarifications / opinions:

One key thing to remember with Aggravated Assault is that there is no requirement that ST actually touched or harmed the alleged victims. If he brandished a gun and pointed it at someone, and they felt threatened (the jury will assume this.......anyone who has a gun pointed at them is going to feel threatened), he is guilty of aggravated assault, period. Whether he actually fired the gun has no bearing on the charge of aggravated assault. Whether the alleged victim actually suffered any physical harm has no bearing on the charge.

As to the "self defense" arguments. Forget about them based on the accusations that have been made so far. First, if the alleged victim did not brandish a gun or other deadly weapon (and there has been no indication so far that he did), then ST cannot waive a gun at him and claim he felt threatened and was only protecting himself. If ST's life was not in imminent danger, he cannot escalate the situation by pulling out a gun and still rely on self defense. Second, someone stealing your property gives you no right to either inflict physical harm on them or to threaten them with a deadly weapon. I know some have said "I'd do the same thing if someone took my property".....and if that's true, you'd be breaking the law as well. Even assuming that the alleged victims had stolen ST's ATVs, that fact would still not excuse any of ST's alleged actions as a matter of law. The reasoning for this is simple: there is a public interest in prohibiting individuals from taking the law into their own hands. While the theft would make it more understandable in our eyes, it makes the alleged actions no less criminal. Third, someone has speculated that perhaps he could say "I took the gun, because I thought those thieves could be packing" (or something like that). Again, sorry, but no defense. The right to life supersedes the right to property, so the fact that he even went to the house of the alleged thieves with a gun is inexcusable. If ST has a true fear of what he might encounter, then he should have called the police. Taking a gun to try to retrieve property in inexcusable as a matter of law.

As for how difficult a case the prosecutor really has? Well, that's hard to tell at this early stage, but I will say that I don't believe it is as difficult as some would like to believe. Certainly if the alleged victims did, in fact, steal the ATVs, then ST's defense is stronger because it will attack the credibility of the victims and could provide reasonable doubt as to the conflicting testimony related to whether a gun was brandished. If, however, the alleged victims did not steal the ATVs, Sean is absolutely screwed. Period. Eye witness testimony is among strongest pieces of evidence a defendant can have against him. Certainly the defense will try to pick it apart, but if the guy says "he pointed a gun at me" and there is no serious challenge to his credibility, and the police can produce the gun, then he's going to be found guilty, plain and simple.

As to the fact that he's a first time offender? With a charge as serious as aggravated assault, where a gun was used, I doubt his being a first time offender will have any bearing at all. Certainly, first time offenders are still subject to whatever mandatory minimums exist under Florida law (and I am not familiar with the particulars of that). To the extent Florida law mandates a certain amount of jail time for gun crimes, he will serve that minimum IF found guilty.

As to the bail issue: it all depends on the parameters of the release. The judge would have set those parameters. In a situation like this where there is a very low likelihood of flight by ST (he's just too famous to try to run and hide), I imagine the judge would allow him to travel to D.C. and back for "work". Same situation with Kobe......he was out on bail during his trial and still allowed to travel back and forth.

As to the jury/fact issue: The jury is, indeed, the fact-finder. If the jury finds that "X" happened, then for purposes of the trial, "X" happened. If they find that "X" did not happen, then "X" did not happen. In criminal trials, all facts must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. This, of course, leads to the inevitable situation where a jury finds that "X did not happen beyond a reasonable doubt". In that situation, yes, there are many times where a defendant has, in fact, committed a crime, but the jury cannot find that they committed a crime "beyond a reasonable doubt." So both sides of the argument are correct. On one hand, the facts are the facts ..... regardless of what the jury says it doesn't actually change what REALLY happened. However, for ST's purposes, the only "facts" that have any bearing on his future are the ones that the jury finds to be true. Hence: OJ. For our purposes, we are under no obligation to wait for the jury to determine the facts. If we believe, based on the information available, that a certain fact is true, then we are free to say so. However, I think we all need to be careful not to take as "fact" what one person or one police report says. Let's not forget, unless the officer is actually there to view the incident, police reports are usually nothing more than a collection of witness statements that the officer makes a snap judgment on.

As for my thoughts on all this: I agree, we need to keep in mind that ST is innocent until proven guilty. However, regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent of the felony, or the misdemeanor, or whatever, I just don't understand how this guy manages to find himself in these situations. I mean come on, he wasn't arrested and charged because he excercised good judgment here. One way or the other he was somewhere he sould not have been in a situation he shouldn't have put himself into. I think he's a little old to be playing cops and robbers or cowboys and indians or whatever it was he thought he was doing.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

Great! I can't wait to see our reserve safeties miss tackles and slide off of ball carriers like water on a rain-x'd windshield.

Re: Talyor 2 Be Charged 4 Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Here is what the Florida Statutes say about assault and aggravated assault:

[B]784.011 Assault[/B]
(1) An "assault" is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.

(2) Whoever commits an assault shall be guilty of a [I]misdemeanor[/I] of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.


[B]784.021 Aggravated assault (What Taylor has been charged with): [/B]

(1) An "aggravated assault" is an assault:

(a) With a deadly weapon without intent to kill; or

(b) With an intent to commit a felony.

Based on the "facts" known to us at this time, Taylor is being charged under 784.021 (1)(a). To prove that Taylor is guilty, the State would need to show:
(1) that Taylor brandished a firearm
(2) that Taylor threatened (by word or act) to do harm to the victim
(3) that the victim saw, or knew of, the firearm and reasonably percieved a threat to his person.

The hurdles in convicting Taylor of the above-referenced charge are (1) proving that Taylor brandished a weapon and (2) that Taylor brandished the weapon in connection with threatening acts or words. If the only witnesses to the "incident" are Taylor, his friend, and the victim(s), it comes down to "he said," "she said." It's hard to get a conviction based solely on the testimony of the alleged victim - especially IF that victim is a "shady character" who might have recently taken part in another crime.

A jury MIGHT be sympathetic to Taylor - who just had possessions taken from him and used a firearm when confronting the people who had just stolen property from Taylor.

Moreover, Taylor's "self-defense" claim could be that he was looking for his stolen property, he knew that he might run into the people who stole it, and oftentimes such criminals are armed - so he took along a weapon.

Based on what I currently know, my guess is this that due to the aforementioned hurdles the DA will need to jump to get a felony conviction, the parties will be plead down to Assault (as opposed to Aggravated Assault) - which is a misdemeanor. But, it's too early to tell.[/QUOTE]

This is nice work...your title should be changed to Legal Expert.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

Can anyone tell me if ST has any history of trouble before coming to the NFL and did he graduate from college or leave early for the NFL?

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

PSU, great post man. It's nice to get the solid legal perspective. There's only so much Law & Order reruns can teach you!!

In your professional opinion, if Taylor pleads guilty to aggravated assault, how much time do you think he'll actually serve? I was wondering if he'd do less time if he just pled guilty than he would if he tried to fight it and lost.

On football matters, I'm on your side now man. If it's at all feasible to our salary cap, I say get rid of him through trade or release, either way, just get rid of him. I wonder if we'll have a claim to get back any signing bonus money.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=dirtbag2112]Great! I can't wait to see our reserve safeties miss tackles and slide off of ball carriers like water on a rain-x'd windshield.[/QUOTE]

are you forgetting how great our backup safeties did last year when matt bowen was injured. if sean taylor doesn't play this season, im sure we have solid backups who can play the position good enough for our defense, just not be playmakers in the secondary. ryan clark is good enough. pierson proleau (sp) is good enough, so are all the other safeties we have. we had a lot of key injuries to our defense last season and we finished third. i don't think our defense is gonna drop a spot because of taylor's absence. hell, remember the dallas game where we could've won 10-6 but sean taylor made a mistake that cost us the game.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

We need Sean Taylor, but we can do without him if need be. I think our secondary will do just fine without him. I'm just curious to see what comes out of this situation.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]PSU, great post man. It's nice to get the solid legal perspective. There's only so much Law & Order reruns can teach you!!

In your professional opinion, if Taylor pleads guilty to aggravated assault, how much time do you think he'll actually serve? I was wondering if he'd do less time if he just pled guilty than he would if he tried to fight it and lost.

On football matters, I'm on your side now man. If it's at all feasible to our salary cap, I say get rid of him through trade or release, either way, just get rid of him. I wonder if we'll have a claim to get back any signing bonus money.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Schneed.:biggthump

As far as plea bargaining, if he were to plead guilty to aggravated assault, and there was a mandatory minimum in place for that offense, he would most likely be stuck with that mandatory minimum (I say most likely because a judge is always free to disregard any arrangements worked out between the parties and give more or less as long as it's within the sentencing guidelines......even if the prosecutor recommends the minimum, the judge could go higher). As for how long that is? That I don't know because I'm not intimately familiar with Florida law. I believe I saw in a prior post by RF that it starts at 5 years (gun charges are typically really tough).

Now, as a practical matter, ST probably wouldn't plead guilty to aggravated assault. Most likely his attorney would work out something with the prosecutor to get the charge dropped down to simple assault and then plead guilty to that (which is a misdemeanor). Then, it's up to the judge. If the judge is a prick, he could jail him for up to one year. More likely scenario (and here is where a clean record can help you): the judge will cut him some slack, give him a year probation, some community service, anger management courses, fines, etc., but no serious time. Whether the prosecution takes the deal to drop the charges down in exchange for a plea will, of course, depend on how strong the case is. If the alleged victims stole the ATVs, then expect a plea bargain because the victims would make poor witnesses (the type any lawyer would just love to cross examine on the stand). If they didn't steal the ATVs, then the prosecution has a strong case and may want to go forward with trial. So to answer your question, he can't get below whatever the mandatory minimum is for whatever crime he pleads guilty to. If that's aggravated assault, he'd be screwed. Of course, there is always getting out early for good behavior, and I'm not sure how Florida law works in that regard, but I'd imagine he'd be looking at at least a couple years before parole would be an option.

As for the contract and whether we could get any $ back? Same situation as Winslow right now. If there is a clause in there related to committing felonies or missing games/team events because of crimes, then certainly the Skins could sue for breach of contract and get some money back. I don't know if there are clauses in there like that or not though. Also don't know what, if any, effect that has on salary cap.

I'm willing to wait a little while to see if it's looking really bad for him before casting him off, but I agree, if he did this, or even if it just becomes painfully evident that he did something seriously wrong here, I'd rather not have him on my team than have him. I just can't cheer for guys that do things like this if even some of the allegations are true.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

mooby, I agree that our back ups are good, but I was more or less referring to Bowen who in the previous years couldnt make a tackle to save his life. No, we're not screwed if we lose Taylor but our secondary will get torched.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]We need Sean Taylor, but we can do without him if need be. I think our secondary will do just fine without him. I'm just curious to see what comes out of this situation.[/QUOTE]I agree that Sean is needed because he has so much talent and can make the big plys we need from him. Last year though we did prove that Williams can find the right player to fill in for an injured or Jailed player. LOL They may not be of the same caliber but will get the job done. The only positve to this is that it came up before training camp has started and that will give us the extra time needed to make the adjustments.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

he wont plead guilty to agravated assault, cause then all his options go out the window... the only thing he'd plead guilty to would be a lesser charge in the context of a plea bargain.

they can't convict for AA with reasonal doubt, so he said/she said might be enough to keep him clear (might because of his track record)... if there are recorded witnesses (ie, making a 911 call) then he could be done (in studies witnesses are notoriously bad at remembering details even a couple days after an event, so basing an entire legal system off the validity of eye witness testimony is a generally bad idea... but recording 911 calls and taking same day statements (and making sure their story matches up in court) do alleviate some of the concerns (and liars tend to be very bad at keeping made-up details straight)).

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

My only concern in this is the #1 draft pick the Redskins will be losing on this guy becasue frankly I am not sure I want this guy on my team anymore. How can we possibly root for this thug?

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]he wont plead guilty to agravated assault, cause then all his options go out the window... the only thing he'd plead guilty to would be a lesser charge in the context of a plea bargain.

they can't convict for AA with reasonal doubt, so he said/she said might be enough to keep him clear (might because of his track record)... if there are recorded witnesses (ie, making a 911 call) then he could be done (in studies witnesses are notoriously bad at remembering details even a couple days after an event, so basing an entire legal system off the validity of eye witness testimony is a generally bad idea... but recording 911 calls and taking same day statements (and making sure their story matches up in court) do alleviate some of the concerns (and liars tend to be very bad at keeping made-up details straight)).[/QUOTE]

In practice, thousands of defendants are convicted on a daily basis entirely because of eye-witness testimony. Eye-witness testimony is really only questioned when the defense is trying to show mistaken identity. That's not likely in the case of a well-known athelete. As for recorded 911 calls and "same day statements", those statements are inadmissible hearsay (i.e. out-of-court statements offered for the truth of the matter asserted), unless they fall under one of the hearsay exceptions. In this case, there are likely not any exceptions. Furthermore, a witness's testimony is to be based entirely on their recollection of the events as of the time they take the stand.

As for reasonable doubt, I can't stress this enough that his past record, or lack of record, cannot be considered by the jury in determining guilt. The only time his clean record helps him is in the sentencing process. Prior acts (or lack thereof) are generally not admissible in determining guilt.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=celts32]My only concern in this is the #1 draft pick the Redskins will be losing on this guy becasue frankly I am not sure I want this guy on my team anymore. How can we possibly root for this thug?[/QUOTE]

The big thing is how his teammates feel about him, and going by Cooley's recent comments in the Post he has the support of his team.

Fans are quick to forgive, especially once he starts smacking people around on the field, it won't be too long before fans are cheering for him again.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Fans are quick to forgive, especially once he starts smacking people around on the field, it won't be too long before fans are cheering for him again.[/QUOTE]

September 19th, Taylor crushes Drew Bledsoe on a saftey blitz, the love fest continues.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]September 19th, Taylor crushes Drew Bledsoe on a saftey blitz, the love fest continues.[/QUOTE]

I'd like it better if Matt Bowen or Ryan Clark crushed him.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I'd like it better if Matt Bowen or Ryan Clark crushed him.[/QUOTE]

:biggthump I'll second that.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

I think "uh oh Jimoh" is about to make an appearance.

Re: Sean Taylor Charged with Aggravated Assault
 

I'm ready to burry my Sean Taylor jersey, right next to my Coles jersey for this offseason. This guy is done, if you ask me. He is a huge distraction right now, and he is just making some of the stupidest decisions, and I think this one really is going to get him in some trouble. I think we need to think about life after Sean Taylor right now.