Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=wewhite3]ok, whatever you say Daseal, but you are wrong, even Mcnabb said it that, why do he have to be labled a black QB, and not just a QB, its not racism, i only kicked out the facts, you don't have to like it, like i said no one ever said that Fran tarkenton was overrated and i like him (how about that me liking a white QB) anyway, and Peyton Manning may be one of a few QB's who call his own plays, so whats your point, What Vick really is that dumb....oh my god i hope not, that would set us back another 20 years, and racism in sports goes back futher than the little peace you put up....and does Peyton Greatness, have anything to do with the receivers he have, I think Joe Montana is the greatest QB of all times, but how great would he have been without jerry rice, and as far as you wanting a afro, OK role with that, and far as me being a redskin fan, don't need to validate that, i been a skins fan since the early 80's so, i don't have to defend myself on that and never will, and didn't someone say that some coach who use to work for Auburn said that Jason Campbell was the dumbest player he ever coached..........there is a pattern[/QUOTE]

Damn wewhite, look what you're making me do here. You're making me actually side with Daseal! Your post makes no sense and is so remarkably ignorant that I'm actually going to apologize in advance to everyone else on this board for even acknowledging it.

First of all, Fran Tarkenton led his team to 4 Super Bowls. Even if he didn't win it's still a feat to get there. Vick has yet to do that even once. He might one day, but he hasn't yet.

Secondly, why is that you take someone calling Vick or Campbell dumb as a knock on them because they're black? Or am I just misunderstanding you. White QBs have been labeled as dumb as well in the past. And it's not so much dumb as they just don't have football smarts.

There is no pattern here, at least not from anyone on this site so stop with that line of "reasoning"

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

Wewhite, I feel where you are coming from but when you look at the media and how they "label" everything and catagorize any given player or situation you have to see where the motivation is. It is all about ratings and readership. There is alot of racist B.S. out there any one who denies this is either blind or stupid.

That being said, I like most on this board do not give a damn if a player is white, black, purple are paisley. the bottom line is can they play. Every jersey I own is a black player and I don't care. Look, if a player is overrated I dont' think people look at the guys skin color they look at his stats and his history.

As Matty has said, Overated is a subjective team to begin with, Overated compared to what? Mc Nabb is Chunky soup boy, in the limelight more than most NFL players. He therefore is open to debate, Look at the track record. He can't win the big game? That is why he is overated in my opinion. Not because he is black. What about Jim Kelly with the Bills, was he overated, yes or no?

Either way Wewhite, you opinion is just as valid as anyone else on this board and I think you have the right to feel that way.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

We're not going to even have this conversation, so the next comments on race and QBs will get the thread locked. End of conversation period.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

The hammer has fallen!

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

By the way, have I mentioned that whoever started this thread is a real jack ass?? Of yeah...:)

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]We're not going to even have this conversation, so the next comments on race and QBs will get the thread locked. End of conversation period.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I apologize for adding fuel to the fire

Back to overrated players...I've always felt that Joe Namath is very overrated when you look at his entire career, and not just the Super Bowl win the "guarantee". I don't see him as one of the best QBs ever, yet it seems that many others do.

Is it just me or do others feel that way too?

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

Great one, TAFKAS. Without that guarantee and the media love Namith is Trent Dilfer at best. I am with you on that one.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Agreed. I apologize for adding fuel to the fire

Back to overrated players...I've always felt that Joe Namath is very overrated when you look at his entire career, and not just the Super Bowl win the "guarantee". I don't see him as one of the best QBs ever, yet it seems that many others do.

Is it just me or do others feel that way too?[/QUOTE]

somewhat, that is what made him the guarantee but first player to get 4000 yards 5 probowls, hof, but only had a couple good years top passer for 3 years
he was injury prone but was top 3 in passing yards his first 10 years for every year that he played most of the season with exeption to his rookie year. Didn't play more than 6 games 3 of those first 10 years

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

"I want to kiss you"

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=wewhite3]ok, whatever you say Daseal, but you are wrong, even Mcnabb said it that, why do he have to be labled a black QB, and not just a QB, its not racism, i only kicked out the facts, you don't have to like it, like i said no one ever said that Fran tarkenton was overrated and i like him (how about that me liking a white QB) anyway, and Peyton Manning may be one of a few QB's who call his own plays, so whats your point, What Vick really is that dumb....oh my god i hope not, that would set us back another 20 years, and racism in sports goes back futher than the little peace you put up....and does Peyton Greatness, have anything to do with the receivers he have, I think Joe Montana is the greatest QB of all times, but how great would he have been without jerry rice, and as far as you wanting a afro, OK role with that, and far as me being a redskin fan, don't need to validate that, i been a skins fan since the early 80's so, i don't have to defend myself on that and never will, and didn't someone say that some coach who use to work for Auburn said that Jason Campbell was the dumbest player he ever coached..........there is a pattern[/QUOTE]


Take a look at who Montana's WR's were when he won his first SB, Freddie Solomon, and Dwight Clark, we are not talking superstars here. And while we are on that subject take a look at who was his RB, they had a guy named Bill Ring, and I believe a player named Cooper carring the work load, Montana may have won a SB with the least amount of talent at the skill positions than any QB in history.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

sure thing...but anyway, i don't care if anyone agrees, i said because i'm not trying to hide behind, or saying that this person is dumb and this person is great, if tarkenton, went to 4 superbowl, good i like him, but he was not a traditional qb either, at the end of Vick career, then we will se where he ranks, you wanna talk about overrated players ...................................

Randel Cunningham......there you go

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

Bigskinbauer
you mentioned ben roethlesburger as being overrated and i totaly agree.
sports people were cumming all over themselves last season when the name big ben was mentioned. i think we all saw the real ben during thier loss in the playoffs.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

i don't know if he's at the top of my list but Matt Hasselback sure came back great from that pro bowl year he had out of no where ;) As far as underrated from the skins I'd have to say my choice would be Cooley. We as skins fans know who he is but it doesn't seem to register with those outside of that and I think that has to do with the fact that he's not really counted as a TE but instead a RB/FB even in fantasy football leagues. As far as overreated skin, I'd have to say its Samuels for me especially with the price tag he carries.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

Red Robert, as far as comparing Dilfer to Namath, I don't think I should even touch that. It's like comparing apples to elephants.

Wewhite, Tarkenton was in the top 10 in the league in rushing touchdowns, passing yards, passing touchdowns, and yards per pass attempt in ALL of his first 4 seasons. Vick was in the top 10 in yards per pass (8th) in 2002. That's it. He is NOWHERE CLOSE to Tarkenton. Not in the same ball park. For Cunningham, he was in the top 10 in passing yards and passing TDs in his third and fourth years and made the pro bowl in his fourth (1988). Also way better than Vick. So I will now make my case. Tarkenton and Cunningham were both one of the leagues top 10 QBs early in their careers. Tarkenton right away and Cunningham in his 3rd and 4th year. Vick IS NOT a top 10 QB. The list of comparisons between these three end at: 1. They ran a lot 2. They were QBs.

In summary,
Vick has:

1. More potential than any QB the league has ever seen
2. Wheels for legs and uncanny scrambling ability
3. Little ability to find open recievers
4. Little ability to read defenses

Vick needs:

1. To learn to stay in the pocket
2. Platform shoes (his 6'0" height may be part of his problem with field vision)
3. To learn what "touch" means (maybe he and Ramsey could attend a seminar together)
4. Possibly a little more time. He's a raw talent who came out early. He gets a couple more years in my book. If he doesn't get better he will permanently join the ranks of "most overhyped of all time" in my book.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=jacobyfan]Red Robert, as far as comparing Dilfer to Namath, I don't think I should even touch that. It's like comparing apples to elephants.

Wewhite, Tarkenton was in the top 10 in the league in rushing touchdowns, passing yards, passing touchdowns, and yards per pass attempt in ALL of his first 4 seasons. Vick was in the top 10 in yards per pass (8th) in 2002. That's it. He is NOWHERE CLOSE to Tarkenton. Not in the same ball park. For Cunningham, he was in the top 10 in passing yards and passing TDs in his third and fourth years and made the pro bowl in his fourth (1988). Also way better than Vick. So I will now make my case. Tarkenton and Cunningham were both one of the leagues top 10 QBs early in their careers. Tarkenton right away and Cunningham in his 3rd and 4th year. Vick IS NOT a top 10 QB. The list of comparisons between these three end at: 1. They ran a lot 2. They were QBs.

In summary,
Vick has:

1. More potential than any QB the league has ever seen
2. Wheels for legs and uncanny scrambling ability
3. Little ability to find open recievers
4. Little ability to read defenses

Vick needs:

1. To learn to stay in the pocket
2. Platform shoes (his 6'0" height may be part of his problem with field vision)
3. To learn what "touch" means (maybe he and Ramsey could attend a seminar together)
4. Possibly a little more time. He's a raw talent who came out early. He gets a couple more years in my book. If he doesn't get better he will permanently join the ranks of "most overhyped of all time" in my book.[/QUOTE]

nice post

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

really, that was a nice post, but let vick play those many years before you say hes not that close, 3 years compared to what 12-14 years im guessing, my point is let him put in work, before we say he's overrated, seriously out of all the guys in the league, he is the most overrated....i just can't see it......................that was alittle cleaner, and there was no racism in it, :biggthump

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

These are fran stats:

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1961 min | 14 | 157 280 56.1 1997 7.1 18 17 | 56 308 5 |
| 1962 min | 14 | 163 329 49.5 2595 7.9 22 25 | 41 361 2 |
| 1963 min | 14 | 170 297 57.2 2311 7.8 15 15 | 28 162 1 |
| 1964 min | 14 | 171 306 55.9 2506 8.2 22 11 | 50 330 2 |
| 1965 min | 14 | 171 329 52.0 2609 7.9 19 11 | 56 356 1 |
| 1966 min | 14 | 192 358 53.6 2561 7.2 17 16 | 62 376 4 |
| 1967 nyg | 14 | 204 377 54.1 3088 8.2 29 19 | 44 306 2 |
| 1968 nyg | 14 | 182 337 54.0 2555 7.6 21 12 | 57 301 3 |
| 1969 nyg | 14 | 220 409 53.8 2918 7.1 23 8 | 37 172 0 |
| 1970 nyg | 14 | 219 389 56.3 2777 7.1 19 12 | 43 236 2 |
| 1971 nyg | 13 | 226 386 58.5 2567 6.7 11 21 | 30 111 3 |
| 1972 min | 14 | 215 378 56.9 2651 7.0 18 13 | 27 180 0 |
| 1973 min | 14 | 169 274 61.7 2113 7.7 15 7 | 41 202 1 |
| 1974 min | 13 | 199 351 56.7 2598 7.4 17 12 | 21 120 2 |
| 1975 min | 14 | 273 425 64.2 2994 7.0 25 13 | 16 108 2 |
| 1976 min | 13 | 255 412 61.9 2961 7.2 17 8 | 27 45 1 |
| 1977 min | 9 | 155 258 60.1 1734 6.7 9 14 | 15 6 0 |
| 1978 min | 16 | 345 572 60.3 3468 6.1 25 32 | 24 -6 1 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 246 | 3686 6467 57.0 47003 7.3 342 266 | 675 3674 32 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

and these are Vick Stats


PASSING

Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
2001 Atlanta Falcons 8 2 113 50 44.2 785 6.95 52 2 3 21/113 11 4 62.7
2002 Atlanta Falcons 15 15 421 231 54.9 2936 6.97 74 16 8 33/206 44 8 81.6
2003 Atlanta Falcons 5 4 100 50 50.0 585 5.85 49 4 3 9/64 7 2 69.0
2004 Atlanta Falcons 15 15 321 181 56.4 2313 7.21 62 14 12 46/266 35 8 78.1
TOTAL 43 36 955 512 53.6 6619 6.93 74 36 26 109/649 97 22 76.9


RUSHING

Year Team G GS Att Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ FD
2001 Atlanta Falcons 8 2 31 289 9.3 35 1 6 15
2002 Atlanta Falcons 15 15 113 777 6.9 46 8 10 44
2003 Atlanta Falcons 5 4 40 255 6.4 43 1 2 14
2004 Atlanta Falcons 15 15 120 902 7.5 58 3 10 49
TOTAL 43 36 304 2223 7.3 58 13 28 122

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

What's being debated here? You remove Vick the Falcon's lineup and you'll end up with an infinitely shittier team. If I'm an Atlanta fan Vick is god!

Also the game has changed so much since the 60's-70's. Frankly, you can't compare players from that era to this one.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=saden1]What's being debated here? You remove Vick the Falcon's lineup and you'll end up with an infinitely shittier team. If I'm an Atlanta fan Vick is god!

Also the game has changed so much since the 60's-70's. Frankly, you can't compare players from that era to this one.[/QUOTE]



Really???????????????

You don't think a QB who can throw the ball downfield would be an improvement?

The Eagles proved that if you contain Vick rollout he's lost.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

wolfe i definatley agree with big ben i mean he had a great supporting cast and for some reason it felt as if the steelers always FOUND a way to win. Yah that is great but it was always something little and pissed me off, i like underdog teams and i always want winning teams to lose some. Some examples, that game against Jacksonville if anyone remembers Cowher(prolly not right spelling) killing the clock at 18 seconds to kick a field goal to take the lead, he could have wasted more time and then jags come back to kick a long field goal like 60 yards, and they barely missed it. I thought that was a stupid coaching move but the media made it sound like when roethlisburger spiked the ball he was playing smart and vetern football. Some other games they could have lost were the cowboys and Jets in playoffs and ofcourse us.
Roethlisburger had ALL the help he could ask for on Defense and they ran the ball more than anyother team in league i believe. But to his credit he did what he was supposed to when he was supposed to but he was in a great possition. Also has any QB in history not made the probowl with 14 wins, I think he started 13 and team won 15.

Vick- in a sense he is overrated but in a sense he is not. See no one thinks of him as a great thrower or great "traditional" QB. We think of him as exiting, and fun to watch, great on his feet, and the fastest QB in history. IN my opinion someone has to MISUNDERSTOOD to be overrated, I think he gets all the credit for being a great runner and it is deserved. But also he gets the deserving discredit of being a bad passer. People buy his shoes because they want to be like him, they want to be fast. He is not the best QB in the league or in my opinion even top 5, no order Mcnabb, Brady, Manning, Culpepper, Farve(still the man but he getting to old for this)

Vick accounted for 902 yards on the ground and 2313 in the air a nice 3215 yards TOTAL. but 14 Qbs in the league threw for more than that many yards(3215 VIck's total), so right now i see no reason for him being in the HOF as of now. culpepper threw for more than 1500 yards more than vicks TOTAL. Kerry collins and Testeverde both got more than 3200 yards. That shows Vick isn't GOD. He is the Most Valuable Player to that team more so than anyother player to any team. But being a great QB= OVERRATED!

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=saden1]What's being debated here? You remove Vick the Falcon's lineup and you'll end up with an infinitely shittier team. If I'm an Atlanta fan Vick is god!

Also the game has changed so much since the 60's-70's. Frankly, you can't compare players from that era to this one.[/QUOTE]

That is why I compared each to the OTHER players in the league at the time e.g. being in the top 10 in a category in order to rate them.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=BigSKINBauer]
Vick accounted for 902 yards on the ground and 2313 in the air a nice 3215 yards TOTAL. but 14 Qbs in the league threw for more than that many yards(3215 VIck's total), so right now i see no reason for him being in the HOF as of now. culpepper threw for more than 1500 yards more than vicks TOTAL. Kerry collins and Testeverde both got more than 3200 yards. That shows Vick isn't GOD. He is the Most Valuable Player to that team more so than anyother player to any team. But being a great QB= OVERRATED![/QUOTE]

I think with a player like a Collins, Ferrotte, maybe Testaverde from a couple years ago that the Falcons still make the playoffs. The rest of the team is so good on D and runs the ball so well, I thenk they'd be fine. Understand that the point of being able to run is to add a dual threat. The defense can't blitz as much and can't run as heavy coverages because of the threat to run. However, for that to REALLY work like it should, you have to be able to pass. Ever wonder why Crumpler is the one always getting the ball? People are running spy coverages with LBs to keep Vick from taking off.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=wewhite3]really, that was a nice post, but let vick play those many years before you say hes not that close, 3 years compared to what 12-14 years im guessing, my point is let him put in work, before we say he's overrated, seriously out of all the guys in the league, he is the most overrated....i just can't see it......................that was alittle cleaner, and there was no racism in it, :biggthump[/QUOTE]

I was only comparing the first four years of each of their careers and then only in relative comparison to the other QBs in the league at the time. I think that is eminently fair. As I said in my other post, he gets another year or two. At the same time, I've never seen a team drop so much cash almost entirely based on potential.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

lavar i think is the most overrated player in the NFL, although he is considered so overrated you could say he is underrated.

as for springs, i agree he is underrated.

what about the cowboys?

i think the assesment of roy was accurate because roy played out of position (FS) last year. this year he will be back on the line wrecking havoc.

i also think campbell is underrated. he is one of the best blocking TEs in the league. he will help the boys out a lot in the running game.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

Who cares? The Cowboys stink... :biggthump

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

ok...how about this everyone has a valid opinion, but i'll show anyone, who want some how overrated M. Vick is when Madden 2006 come out then...we can settle the debate.....on the gridiron.....yea baby we can fight like that....even though i useally use the Redskins.......but now Falcons on Madden :FIREdevil

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

I'm Rick James....:grouphug:

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=saden1]What's being debated here? You remove Vick the Falcon's lineup and you'll end up with an infinitely shittier team. If I'm an Atlanta fan Vick is god!

Also the game has changed so much since the 60's-70's. Frankly, you can't compare players from that era to this one.[/QUOTE]
I agree that taking Vick out of the lineup kills the Falcons, but some of that has to fall on the GM. When Vick was hurt two years ago, their backup was Doug Johnson. I believe the player personnel staff in Atlanta has made a choice to insure there will never be a QB controversy by failing to back Vick up properly. For example, if Vick goes down this year, his likely backup is Matt Schaub, who in six games of mop up duty got himself a 42.1 QB rating. Not much chance to push Vick to greatness.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=wrnboysfan]lavar i think is the most overrated player in the NFL, although he is considered so overrated you could say he is underrated.

as for springs, i agree he is underrated.

what about the cowboys?

i think the assesment of roy was accurate because roy played out of position (FS) last year. this year he will be back on the line wrecking havoc.

i also think campbell is underrated. he is one of the best blocking TEs in the league. he will help the boys out a lot in the running game.[/QUOTE]
Campbell is a very good TE - I wouldn't mind him in a Skins Uni. However, when he doesn't crack the starting lineup for a team, I think you have to take him out of the conversation. It would be like suggesting that Ola Kimrin is the most underrated kicker on the Skins last year - he may have been our third best kicker, but he would have been number two on a lot of clubs.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=BrudLee]Campbell is a very good TE - I wouldn't mind him in a Skins Uni. However, when he doesn't crack the starting lineup for a team, I think you have to take him out of the conversation. It would be like suggesting that Ola Kimrin is the most underrated kicker on the Skins last year - he may have been our third best kicker, but he would have been number two on a lot of clubs.[/QUOTE]

you see you don't understand, we will play lots of 2 TE sets to take advantage of this asset. bp has already said that you will see equal if not more formations with 2 TEs then you will with a FB.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=wrnboysfan]you see you don't understand, we will play lots of 2 TE sets to take advantage of this asset. bp has already said that you will see equal if not more formations with 2 TEs then you will with a FB.[/QUOTE]



playing two te sets will hurt campbell more than help him , as far as stats go.
he will be used more for blocking.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

well i think Vick has to be the most overrated player in the NFL closely followed by Mcnabb

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

Good grief. This discussion is STILL going? Being the most "overrated" player really has little to do with the player himself (except for Prime Time) and everything to do with the media. I've noticed that ESPN has their favorites, FOX has theirs. The Washington Post has its favorites, the New York Times has theirs. How about this? Who gets paid inversely the highest for their level of production? That would be the most overrated/overpaid to me. The media can sour on anyone at any time and suddenly the hype goes away.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

I'd have to say Vick...........his production in passing yards is half of what the other QBs do, and his QB rating was only 78 and the Falcons were 30th in passing. Even Trent Green had a 95 QB rating, higher than Vick..........

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=monk81]I'd have to say Vick...........his production in passing yards is half of what the other QBs do, and his QB rating was only 78 and the Falcons were 30th in passing. Even Trent Green had a 95 QB rating, higher than Vick..........[/QUOTE]
Dude as much as i don't want to compliment Trent he got crazy yards with average WRs. He was second in the league

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

Big Skin, Ithink you can attribute Green's yards due to the fact the system he has played is the only one he has played. Redskins, Rams then Chiefs all had the same base offense. He is so familar with his offense that reading deffense is quite easy for him.On a side note it is good to see a cowboy fan who comes on here and talks about football. Nice to see the smack curbed a bit.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=wolfeskins]playing two te sets will hurt campbell more than help him , as far as stats go.
he will be used more for blocking.[/QUOTE]

i know, he basically is taking the FB place and is a better blocker and can catch some too.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=wrnboysfan]i know, he basically is taking the FB place and is a better blocker and can catch some too.[/QUOTE]



i'd say it's gonna hurt his "FANTASY" stats....i don't mind though, i never choose cowroid players for my fantasy team, i just can't bring myself to pull for a cowroid, no matter how good he is.

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=wolfeskins]i'd say it's gonna hurt his "FANTASY" stats....i don't mind though, i never choose cowroid players for my fantasy team, i just can't bring myself to pull for a cowroid, no matter how good he is.[/QUOTE]

I can never choose an Eagle...or start anyone who is playing the Redskins

Re: Most Overrated NFL Player?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]I can never choose an Eagle...or start anyone who is playing the Redskins[/QUOTE]


me neither. i usually don't pick any players from the east, other than skins.
last year i did end up with shockey as one of my tightends but i would'nt play him against the skins. i had the skins d last year in both leagues that i was in.