Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Do you really think his decision was based soley on the Chicago game?[/QUOTE]

no i don't. but i think 16 regular season games should say an infinitely lot more about two quarterbacks than 8 very limited circumstance preseason games.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=Sociofan]And how many Super Bowls or even NFC championships do they have between them?

Turnovers not only kill drives, they kill morale which can cost a game or even a season. You spend too much time just wondering "when" the next one will happen.[/QUOTE]

do you expect brunell to lead us to a championship game? cause i don't.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=Joe Knows...]One more piont I forgot to make... Joe Theisman and other former Gibbs players are always talking on TV about how Gibbs hates turn overs. And that if a player can't protect the football then Coach Gibbs isn't going to tolerate it and will not be afraid to bench him.

Looks like Theisman was telling the truth.[/QUOTE]

That is the point period. I think a lot of fans who are for Ramsey really aren't taking Gibbs seriously because when he says no turnovers there are no exceptions. Antonio Brown will be replaced sooner than later if he turns the ball over on the punt return. Turnovers are gifts from our team to another team that allows them to stay in the game and erase the great job our defense is doing. Brunell is the starter, period.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

Hahahahaha... I like your turnover description.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

I actually can't believe that PRESEASON games are being cited as more relevant than last year's regular season games. Should the Steelers have benched Roethlisberger after this preseason, and gone with Tommy Maddox? After all, Roethlisberger had about a 20 passer rating in the preseason, and turned the ball over quite often. (NOTE: I can't find the actual numbers for either of those players in the preseason, probably because most outlets for that sort of information realize that the PRESEASON DOESN'T MATTER). Sure Ben outplayed Maddox last season, but, hey, this preseason they've both looked like different men. And sure, Maddox was only playing bumbling idiots out there in the preseason, and Ben was playing first string Ds, but Maddox's stats are better and frankly he LOOKED better.

My point is, you cannot seriously judge a player on his preseason performance, unless there is no prior basis for comparison (a rookie, or a newly signed FA perhaps). And with Brunell and Ramsey, we HAVE A BASIS FOR COMPARISON. It's called last season. Brunell was horrible, Ramsey was better. Sure, hamstring this and arm strength that, but why take a chance on a guy who has proved nothing in a Redskins uniform other than he cannot play football anymore. Hoping the frog that is Brunell to turn into a prince is literally like wishing for a fairy tale. At least Ramsey has demonstrated he can win ballgames against teams that come close to matching our talent level. Remember the Vikings game? That was a playoff team that we simply outplayed with Ramsey at the helm. He turned the ball over a few times, but overcame that by playing like a real QB. People act like a turnover is the end of the world. It sucks, yes, but 2 turnovers in a game is better than 8 3-and-outs. Our defense is strong enough to help us withstand turnovers, and we need some aggressiveness on our offense, some risk-taking. What's the point in having speedsters like Moss and Patten if you are just going to check down every play for fear of making a turnover?

A starter losing his job based on 6 quarters of preseason play, no matter how shaky, is simply ludicrous. Patrick's play in the preseason is NOT a sufficient reason for him losing the job in this day and age, or else numerous other QBs would have been benched as well. The fact of the matter is, Gibbs feels more "comfortable" with Brunell in there. However, I, in my admittedly limited knowledge of football, feel that this is "ill-advised." If you're comfortable going through a season where we beat Chicago, San Francisco, Arizona, the Giants once, and possibly the Raiders, then so be it. Brunell simply doesn't give us a chance to beat teams of a similar caliber. The offense is far too stagnant, and we'll never put enough points on the board to outscore teams with a decent offense. Sounds kinda like 2004, doesn't it? This move to Brunell might as well come with a time machine.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

Actually, I just found those stats on Roethlisberger and Maddox.

Ben's Passer Rating = 32.5

Maddox's Passer Rating = 59.5

Batch's Passer Rating = 74.0

What a ridiculous organization, releasing the player who quite obviously played the BEST during a meaningful preseason. Sure, he's proven that he sucks in the regular season, but this is a new year!

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

Let's stop comparing Ramsey to the likes of Favre, Manning, Vick and now Rothlisberger.

The preseason meant nothing for Rothlisberger. He wasn't trying to lock down a starting job. Why? There are 15 reason why, those are the # of wins he recorded as a rookie last year. He's proved himself in the eyes of the Steelers.

If anyone really believes the preseason wasn't important for Ramsey you're fooling yourself.

It was his formal audition for the job. All he had to do to avoid all this was play well and show he was the right guy for the job. He didn't do it, simple as that.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

following that logic why don't Brunell's # of losses count against him? or Ramsey's wins?

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Let's stop comparing Ramsey to the likes of Favre, Manning, Vick and now Rothlisberger.

The preseason meant nothing for Rothlisberger. He wasn't trying to lock down a starting job. Why? There are 15 reason why, those are the # of wins he recorded as a rookie last year. He's proved himself in the eyes of the Steelers.

If anyone really believes the preseason wasn't important for Ramsey you're fooling yourself.

It was his formal audition for the job. All he had to do to avoid all this was play well and show he was the right guy for the job. He didn't do it, simple as that.[/QUOTE]

yaeh, he auditioned by not running the actual offense and not having the best players (cooley/portis) being used... that's definately makes it fair to pull him after 19 minutes.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

lol i like that turnover description, and besides, if it wasn't for antonio brown's fumble, we would've shut them out. if we play mistake free, turnover free, football, on both the offense and the special teams i think we'll win. also, we need to make sure we don't get defensive pass interference, i remember a couple games last year, specifically the eagles, where they threw the deep ball and pi was called on shawn springs at our 1 yard line. they scored a touchdown on the next play.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]

I'll say it again, I like Ramsey, I really do. I think he's got a good future in this league, but right now Brunell appears to be the better option at QB. Put last year out of your mind with Brunell and just focus on what we've seen from him in 2005. He's played well and gives us the best chance to win right now.
[/QUOTE]

Brunell is better based off of what, your opinion...the stats don't back it up. The truth is our team is a mess, when we don't have a clear cut starter, the best QB is probably the rookie, he just does not have the experience yet for a 'veteran' team seeking a play-off berth. I am going to stick to my guns on this, Gibbs coach GOOD, Gibbs GM BAD. The whole coach/GM in one concept does not work, and in my opinion it will become painfully obvious as the season progress and in the future as we will have another free-agent/veteran exodus. The winning teams, such as the Eagles have continuity.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

Matty you expressed my sentiments exactly!!! The thing that bothered me is all these rave reviews on Ramsey during camp, and how confident he was.....and in the preseason games I saw him in I didn't see the confidence everyone was talking about, I saw the hanging on to the ball too long, reading the receivers with his eyes, then there's the turnovers.......

Like I said before, looks like Gibbs has taken the George Allen approach...you win with defense and hope the offense doesnt lose it for you!

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=DirtBagZ]Brunell is better based off of what, your opinion...the stats don't back it up. The truth is our team is a mess, when we don't have a clear cut starter, the best QB is probably the rookie, he just does not have the experience yet for a 'veteran' team seeking a play-off berth. I am going to stick to my guns on this, Gibbs coach GOOD, Gibbs GM BAD. The whole coach/GM in one concept does not work, and in my opinion it will become painfully obvious as the season progress and in the future as we will have another free-agent/veteran exodus. The winning teams, such as the Eagles have continuity.[/QUOTE]

Gibbs can't just waive a magic wand and continuity begins...especially in this day of the salary cap.... it takes time, and Joe is trying to get Redskin Park in order after 14 years of chaos...................

Let's look at a former Redskin GM, Charlie Casserly......while the Texans are an expansion team, their QB has no O line and their defense isn't that great either.....they are an all around mediocre below average team.....and wasn't Mike Holmgren supposed to be one of those "geniuses" too.......the Seahaws haven't soared.........and yes the Cowboys had one fluke year with 10-6 record because of lack of competition....but last year they had the same win/loss record as the Skins last year.....so much for Parcells.........then there's the underacheiving Saints, and the Lions and Matt Millen is under pressure, they've drafted nothing but WRs and it's a make or break year for Joey H and possibly Matt might being heading back to the broadcast booth. Vermeil was criticized for his lack of defense despite his D coordinator, and why hasn't Tony Dungy, a defensive minded guy, improved the Colts defense enough to get tot he Super Bowl....the Bengals are STILL trying to get above .500 after how many years? Packers are in a nose dive......I'm not even going to mention the regular bottom feeders--Cards, Dolphins, Chicago etc etc..The only well run powerhouse team IMHO is the Pats......hate to say it but Eagles are second, but look at the turmoil in their house with Westbrook and T.O...........it ain't a picnic out there and Gibbs is doing the best he can!!! Skins are in the same boat as a lot of other teams......

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=monk81]Gibbs can't just waive a magic wand and continuity begins...especially in this day of the salary cap.... it takes time, and Joe is trying to get Redskin Park in order after 14 years of chaos...................[/QUOTE]

continuity?? how much continuity do you expect from a 35 yr old QB coming off being the worst QB in the NFL and now being put back in all of the sudden after months and months of work w/ Ramsey? that word does'nt come close to applying here.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]continuity?? how much continuity do you expect from a 35 yr old QB coming off being the worst QB in the NFL and now being put back in all of the sudden after months and months of work w/ Ramsey? that word does'nt come close to applying here.[/QUOTE]

I'm not so much talking at continuity at QB as I am continuity within the team organization and coach and GM. The players are were so thrilled at camp this year because they did not have to learn yet another coach's system........

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

I am just sick. Not that he changed qb's - of course that's his right as a coach. But why then? If he wasn't comfortable w/Ramsey, do it before the game. Ramsey did have a rough start, but seemed to be settling down and had, in fact, just thrown a td that was nullified by a very questionaable call. He stuck w/Brunell when he couldn't even throw a spiral. Now he says that Brunell was hurt. Well, then why was he starting? I'm no psychologist, but what he did to Ramsey on Sunday, and then Monday, was absolutely inexcusable and should guarantee that, no matter what happens, his ability to be effective in D.C. is severely damaged.



l

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

I really liked Ramsey at first and thought he was the real deal. But he regressed last year and was never consistent. This year he looked like he has regressed even further and only looks good for a play here and there. I don't know what happened to him but he certainly hasn't impressed me much since his first year. He throws way too many dumb passes and just doesn't look at all comfortable back there. I don't care if he has a strong arm or not... so did Jeff George!! I hope he has a good future in the NFL but I just don't think he will... I really doubt if he will be back next year with the Skins.

As for Brunell, like everybody else I knew he was terrible last year. But I will give him the benefit of the doubt because if he was playing with that bad leg ... that could easily explain why he couldn't put any zip on the ball and looked like he was forcing every throw. I have to admit, he threw the ball with authority and much more zip than Ramsey during the preseason and really looked like the Brunell of old. I can't believe people in here who want to discount what these guys looked like during the preseason... unless people are blind, it was so obvious who was playing much better.

Did anybody really think that when Gibbs traded for Brunell and then traded a number 1 to get Campbell that the end was just a matter of time for Ramsey. I think Gibbs stuck to his promise to give Ramsey the starting job but then when he did his usual turnovers and looking lost in the pocket last week, that was it. Having said that... Brunell didn't light up the scoreboard either.

Time will tell... but I certainly believe that the offense will be much better and the Skins have a much better chance to win with Brunell rather than Ramsey.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=drew54]Anyone else wish we had taken a chance on Trent Dilfer instead of Heath Shuler.

Maybe he could have been the long term game manager that we needed and then we wouldnt have to worry about Mark Brunell and Patrick Ramsey.[/QUOTE]

Talk about remember when............I remember telling a friend during the preseason when Gus, Heath, were battlin' for QB starting position, that the QB I liked out of all of our QBs based on performance was Trent Green.........oh if only we had kept him

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=monk81]I'm not so much talking at continuity at QB as I am continuity within the team organization and coach and GM. The players are were so thrilled at camp this year because they did not have to learn yet another coach's system........[/QUOTE]

not all players, some couldn't wait to get out of here.

and i'd say there's a lot to be said for QB continuity, especially after an entire offseason dedicated to one QB and suddenly changing going into one of our most important games.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

Mattyk72, I agree with everything you posted. I actually just posted almost the same opinion in a different thread. Albeit not as professionaly put as you. Good luck Patrick Ramsey I hope to see you stay in Burgundy & Gold.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=Dana87]Mattyk72, I agree with everything you posted. I actually just posted almost the same opinion in a different thread. Albeit not as professionaly put as you. Good luck Patrick Ramsey I hope to see you stay in Burgundy & Gold.[/QUOTE]

except matty doesn't start his posts by telling people what they should think unless they're some kind of dim.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=DirtBagZ]Brunell is better based off of what, your opinion...the stats don't back it up. The truth is our team is a mess, when we don't have a clear cut starter, the best QB is probably the rookie, he just does not have the experience yet for a 'veteran' team seeking a play-off berth. I am going to stick to my guns on this, Gibbs coach GOOD, Gibbs GM BAD. The whole coach/GM in one concept does not work, and in my opinion it will become painfully obvious as the season progress and in the future as we will have another free-agent/veteran exodus. The winning teams, such as the Eagles have continuity.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, wholeheartedly. Much of this move is about Gibbs the GM, IMO. He's killing two birds with one stone: Justifying the Brunell signing and justifying the incredible price we paid to get Campbell. Through this move, we get probably another year of use out of Brunell (thus, conceivably, preventing it from being viewed as possibly THE worst FA signing ever) and clear the path for Campbell to be the starter in '06.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=e16bball]Agreed, wholeheartedly. Much of this move is about Gibbs the GM, IMO. He's killing two birds with one stone: Justifying the Brunell signing and justifying the incredible price we paid to get Campbell. Through this move, we get probably another year of use out of Brunell (thus, conceivably, preventing it from being viewed as possibly THE worst FA signing ever) and clear the path for Campbell to be the starter in '06.[/QUOTE]

I really think you should take a step back, and put yourself in the shoes of Joe Gibbs after deciding he would return as the Head Coach. If you were him, would you concentrate on winning right now or establish a foundation that could be successful for years to come? I think you would decide the latter. When Gibbs returned he already had his scouts out there looking for a young QB because he like you was watching Ramsey from afar and realized the inability of Ramsey to be efficient. Sure, most rookie QB's make mistakes, but with experience and maturity they either grow or get cut. Ramsey's worth right now is about next to nothing. No team will trade a lot for him. So he might as well accept any teams offer and make the best of it and maybe prove us wrong who didn't think he was right QB for this team.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

Matty I will agree with you that Ramsey did not grab the QB position by the horn. Yes he was not consistent, but if you look at last season Brunell was in the same position and got so many chances to prove himself. The thing that annoys me is that he showed his impatience on a young QB, whereas he should have shown it on the veteran QB. This impatience is not good. Ramsey needs a little bit of patience and I am sure he would blossom into a good QB. Looks like it' going to be another Readskin pick going to play somewhere else and showing their true potential

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

Do you all want a repeat of last year? I don't think Gibbs does. He might've realised that Ramsey may be like Brunell last year. Or maybe Gibbs sat Ramsey down to show that Gibbs is not joking about this turnover business.

Is Ramsey A Victim of Gibbs Lasting Legacy?
 

The picture of Mark Brunell standing on the sideline holding a clip board only serves to remind the world that Joe Gibbs spent millions of Mr. Snyder's money to bring him here. Gibbs needs him to make some kind of contribution to save his fading legacy. However, in the end I think he will realize that old and famous football coaches like old famous generals can never return and measure up to their former stature.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

delbro I moved your thread here so we don't start yet another thread on Ramsey/Brunell

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

delbro it doesn't matter to gibbs about his legacy. he said when he took this job it could become tainted. it might, but i think gibbs won't leave before he turns this ship around.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=mooby]delbro it doesn't matter to gibbs about his legacy. he said when he took this job it could become tainted. it might, but i think gibbs won't leave before he turns this ship around.[/QUOTE]

I doubt his legacy will change that much, I mean, he's already won 3 SBs and been placed in the HoF, and those things can't get revoked. Even if he bombs, he' still one the the winningest coaches with a 3 trophies and a HoF career.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]I doubt his legacy will change that much, I mean, he's already won 3 SBs and been placed in the HoF, and those things can't get revoked. Even if he bombs, he' still one the the winningest coaches with a 3 trophies and a HoF career.[/QUOTE]


WOrd, this guy came back to give it another run knowing people were gonna doubt and the cards were stacked against him.

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

BLAH BLAH BLAH !!!!:mad:
we seem to forget one man does not make a team, Gentelmen. (and i use that term loosely!!) Coach Gibbs is searching just like the rest of us for a answer and until they come together as a unit it will continue to Falter!! think back to Ryp and that superbowl team and tell me they didnt work as a unit, its time for all to step up and want to be The Washington Redskins!!! one of the best franchises, led by one of the best Coaches to ever coach the game!!!The right man will step up and lead us to the promise land. Whether it,s Brunell, or Ramsey, or Campbell or some other QB This is what coach means by CORE REDSKINS in the mean time we must continue to be the Greatest Fans In the NFL and stand by our Team and our Coach !!!
NUFF SAID
Hail to the Redskins
Skinfomaniac:coach::dallas:

Re: Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look
 

[QUOTE=Skinfomaniac]BLAH BLAH BLAH !!!!:mad:
we seem to forget one man does not make a team, Gentelmen. (and i use that term loosely!!) Coach Gibbs is searching just like the rest of us for a answer and until they come together as a unit it will continue to Falter!! think back to Ryp and that superbowl team and tell me they didnt work as a unit, its time for all to step up and want to be The Washington Redskins!!! one of the best franchises, led by one of the best Coaches to ever coach the game!!!The right man will step up and lead us to the promise land. Whether it,s Brunell, or Ramsey, or Campbell or some other QB This is what coach means by CORE REDSKINS in the mean time we must continue to be the Greatest Fans In the NFL and stand by our Team and our Coach !!!
NUFF SAID
Hail to the Redskins
Skinfomaniac:coach::dallas:[/QUOTE]

duped post from another thread?