Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=firstdown;929431]Your also assuming GM would have gone under. The bailout only made it easier on GM I don't think they would have gone belly up without gov aid.[/quote]

They would have most certainly gone under.

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=12thMan;929434]They would have most certainly gone under.[/quote]No, they would've restructured under existing bankruptcy laws. With the ability to completely rework the union contracts they'd be in a stronger position than they are today.

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

why do the republicans insist on attacking unions every chance they get?

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;929443]No, they would've restructured under existing bankruptcy laws. With the ability to completely rework the union contracts they'd be in a stronger position than they are today.[/quote]

The Unions had already made offers of help in any way they could.



[url=http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-05-29-gm-uaw_N.htm]UAW members approve General Motors concessions - USATODAY.com[/url]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;929443]No, they would've restructured under existing bankruptcy laws. With the ability to completely rework the union contracts they'd be in a stronger position than they are today.[/quote]

No, they needed a huge injection of capital as well and no one -- I mean no one -- was giving GM money. Credit was tight as you recall.

In the end the company did undergo a restructuring and the unions made huge concessions in the process. That's how the whole thing managed to work.

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=Giantone;929453]The Unions had already made offers of help in any way they could.



[url=http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-05-29-gm-uaw_N.htm]UAW members approve General Motors concessions - USATODAY.com[/url][/quote]

Exactly. The idea that the unions got their cake and ate too is patently false. Everyone had skin in the game.

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

The Unions only came to the table at the last minute to protect themself.

The vote comes before an expected Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection filing by GM (GM) on Monday. Bankruptcy experts say having the labor agreement in place will help move the process through court more quickly.

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=firstdown;929562]The Unions only came to the table at the last minute to protect themself.

The vote comes before an expected Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection filing by GM (GM) on Monday. Bankruptcy experts say having the labor agreement in place will help move the process through court more quickly.[/quote]

And??? What's wrong with that? Shouldn't they in fact protect themselves?

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=12thMan;929563]And??? What's wrong with that? Shouldn't they in fact protect themselves?[/quote]You either haven't read or chose to ignore the facts in the link with detail on the UAW bailout.

from my link: "
Before the bankruptcy, UAW members in Detroit [URL="http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/12/uaw-workers-actually-cost-the-big-three-automakers-70-an-hour"][COLOR=#000080]made more than $70 an hour[/COLOR][/URL] in wages and benefits — a major reason GM and Chrysler went under. The automakers also owed tens of billions to a UAW trust fund that provided gold-plated health benefits to the union’s retirees. [B][I]In a normal bankruptcy, the UAW would be required to bring this compensation down to competitive rates. Bankruptcy law also calls for all unsecured creditors to receive equal treatment. [/I][/B]That did not happen in Detroit.
In the bankruptcy, [B][I]the union gave only minor concessions for existing workers. [/I][/B]The union accepted huge cuts for new hires, but as the president’s [URL="http://wot.motortrend.com/rattner-says-uaw-wages-should-have-been-cut-during-bailouts-147425.html#ixzz1saq52d2e"][COLOR=#000080]former Car Czar admitted[/COLOR][/URL], “We did not ask any UAW member to take a cut in their pay.”[B][I] As a result, GM still pays $56 an hour in wages and benefits, more than any of its foreign “transplant” competitors. Not adjusting labor costs to market rates costs taxpayers more than $4 billion.[/I][/B]
The UAW’s trust fund also recovered far more of the money owed to it than other unsecured creditors did. At GM the UAW Trust collected $12.2 billion more than it would have had it been treated like the other unsecured creditors. At Chrysler the administration gave the UAW assets worth $9.2 billion. That was a much greater recovery than the [I]secured[/I] creditors got — and the reason the UAW wound up with half of Chrysler.
[B][I]General Motors further spent $1 billion to restore the pensions of UAW retirees at Delphi, a bankrupt former GM subsidiary, to their former levels. GM had no legal obligation to do so, and did not do the same for the pensions of retirees in other unions or those of non-union employees.[/I][/B] Former administration officials [URL="http://turner.house.gov/UploadedFiles/5-9-12_TO_MRT_-_SIGTARP_Letter_RE_Former_Task_Force_Employees_Refusing_to_Testify.pdf"][COLOR=#000080]have refused to co-operate[/COLOR][/URL] with the inspector general’s investigation into whether the administration played a role in this decision.
Add these handouts up, and you find that the [B][I]taxpayers spent $26.5 billion subsidizing the pay and benefits of UAW members. Obama gave the UAW more than the U.S. spends on foreign aid. The UAW subsidies account for the entire net cost of the bailout.[/I][/B]
Generous compensation is good, but the taxpayers should not be on the hook for paying it. The average worker makes about $30 in pay and benefits. The administration spent the taxes paid by all Americans to preserve union pay in Detroit. That was not an auto bailout. It was a UAW bailout.

This was a BS pay-off to UAW, no other way to spin it.

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;929571]You either haven't read or chose to ignore the facts in the link with detail on the UAW bailout.

from my link: "
Before the bankruptcy, UAW members in Detroit [URL="http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/12/uaw-workers-actually-cost-the-big-three-automakers-70-an-hour"][COLOR=#000080]made more than $70 an hour[/COLOR][/URL] in wages and benefits — a major reason GM and Chrysler went under. The automakers also owed tens of billions to a UAW trust fund that provided gold-plated health benefits to the union’s retirees. [B][I]In a normal bankruptcy, the UAW would be required to bring this compensation down to competitive rates. Bankruptcy law also calls for all unsecured creditors to receive equal treatment. [/I][/B]That did not happen in Detroit.
In the bankruptcy, [B][I]the union gave only minor concessions for existing workers. [/I][/B]The union accepted huge cuts for new hires, but as the president’s [URL="http://wot.motortrend.com/rattner-says-uaw-wages-should-have-been-cut-during-bailouts-147425.html#ixzz1saq52d2e"][COLOR=#000080]former Car Czar admitted[/COLOR][/URL], “We did not ask any UAW member to take a cut in their pay.”[B][I] As a result, GM still pays $56 an hour in wages and benefits, more than any of its foreign “transplant” competitors. Not adjusting labor costs to market rates costs taxpayers more than $4 billion.[/I][/B]
The UAW’s trust fund also recovered far more of the money owed to it than other unsecured creditors did. At GM the UAW Trust collected $12.2 billion more than it would have had it been treated like the other unsecured creditors. At Chrysler the administration gave the UAW assets worth $9.2 billion. That was a much greater recovery than the [I]secured[/I] creditors got — and the reason the UAW wound up with half of Chrysler.
[B][I]General Motors further spent $1 billion to restore the pensions of UAW retirees at Delphi, a bankrupt former GM subsidiary, to their former levels. GM had no legal obligation to do so, and did not do the same for the pensions of retirees in other unions or those of non-union employees.[/I][/B] Former administration officials [URL="http://turner.house.gov/UploadedFiles/5-9-12_TO_MRT_-_SIGTARP_Letter_RE_Former_Task_Force_Employees_Refusing_to_Testify.pdf"][COLOR=#000080]have refused to co-operate[/COLOR][/URL] with the inspector general’s investigation into whether the administration played a role in this decision.
Add these handouts up, and you find that the [B][I]taxpayers spent $26.5 billion subsidizing the pay and benefits of UAW members. Obama gave the UAW more than the U.S. spends on foreign aid. The UAW subsidies account for the entire net cost of the bailout.[/I][/B]
Generous compensation is good, but the taxpayers should not be on the hook for paying it. The average worker makes about $30 in pay and benefits. The administration spent the taxes paid by all Americans to preserve union pay in Detroit. That was not an auto bailout. It was a UAW bailout.

This was a BS pay-off to UAW, no other way to spin it.[/quote]

Socialism?

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;929571]Before the bankruptcy, UAW members in Detroit [URL="http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/12/uaw-workers-actually-cost-the-big-three-automakers-70-an-hour"][COLOR=#000080]made more than $70 an hour[/COLOR][/URL] in wages and benefits — a major reason GM and Chrysler went under.[/quote]

Talk about spin. I love how corporate/capitalist sympathizers point to the labor costs as a "major" reason for GM and Chrysler going under when in reality, the reason they were going under is because they had a inferior product. This falls in the range of design, quality, and marketing. The only thing the American car companies compete in are the trucks. That's about it.

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;929322][IMG]http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/6af50907-5155-49da-a64e-8ff6eaac2d6f.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

Acshulaly the working adults one is wrong. It's reduced pay longer hours.

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;929574]Talk about spin. I love how corporate/capitalist sympathizers point to the labor costs as a "major" reason for GM and Chrysler going under when in reality, the reason they were going under is because they had a inferior product. This falls in the range of design, quality, and marketing. The only thing the American car companies compete in are the trucks. That's about it.[/quote]


Nooooo...it was those big bad mean unions that forced GM to roll out those fuel inefficient gas guzzling automobiles.

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

[quote=12thMan;929573]Socialism?[/quote]:laughing- Good one.

Re: 2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)
 

:laughing-


[IMG]http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/558302_289278627846735_1754251341_n.jpg[/IMG]