Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;569156]Wow. Not only are you loopie you're also a flaming douche. Good combo.[/quote]

I'm sure if you met me in real life you would think otherwise, and I'm sure I would do the same of you. Just keep in mind, you were the one who jumped in just to insult me.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;569131]The chart says that data provided through 2007 is from Bush's whitehouse.gov. Not sure if that is just for Bush's terms, but it implies it is everything from 1940 on. Not really a "republican bashing site". Also, saden has repeatedly referred to Obama as "weak-ass Obama". I get the feeling his man-crush is not as strong as you think.[/quote]
Yea, but when he says that its because he thinks Obama should do more of this stuff.

Re: Obama Care
 

For those of you with a lot of time, here's a very long (9 pages) article about the history of the healthcare system in America, and how it got so expensive and out of control. Actually, the last two pages are source references. If nothing else, add it to your Favorites and read it when you have time.

While the main premise is how government intervention, rules and regulations basically got us to where we are, doctors and hospitals don't escape criticism either. This was written back in 1993 -- the last time there was a big push for a national healthcare program.

[url=http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1094/is_n2_v28/ai_13834930/]Health care in the twentieth century: a history of government interference and protection | Business Economics | Find Articles at BNET[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;569123]If something has no application in "real" life, isn't that basically saying it's useless? Where else would it apply? Anyways, I don't really care if people think my accepted philosophy is useless. It's mine, not their's, and it represents a better way to live, IMO.

:food-smil[/quote]

You seem to care an awful lot what other people think about your "accepted philosophy".

I don't think anyone thinks you or anything about you is worthless. But pointing out what they think is misguided is simply human. What the heck is the point of posting on a message board other than to expose your thoughts to the evaluation of others? Your "accepted philosophy" didn't originate out of thin air. You adopted it through evaluation of ideas presented to you through various media. Now you are spreading it in a similar way and expect for it not to be judged and evaluated?

Anyways back to health care. Overall this is the best PL thread in quite a while. I applaud almost everyone in it. Special kudos to Joe, CP and saden, and Sammy for some good back and forth.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;569158]Yeah, I've been a little touchy lately. Sorry for that.

However, you did criticize me, by saying that I am, "detached from reality," by assuming that I feel like I can convince people to think absent of ego. I am not trying to convince people of anything, and awakening cannot come from a convincing argument. So, your assumption led to the insult. See my response to SS33 for an explanation of why that response could be construed as insulting.

As for whether you're on track in understanding my point, yeah pretty much -- and I commend you for actually caring to try and understand me. Although, I'm not really thinking about the costs. I'm thinking in terms of principle (not reality, right?) -- we should look out for one another, and ensure that everyone has access to healthcare, among other things. Be our brothers' keepers, if you will.

If people identified less with their ego, they would not resist this so much, and they would be more concerned with finding ways to make it work -- rather than finding reasons to discredit it. I hear the same argument over and over: why should I help others? Why should I do for them, what they can't/won't do for themselves? Because it's better than neglecting them. That's all I'm saying.

"Blessed is he who considers the poor, The Lord will deliver him in time of trouble." -Psalm 41:1

BTW, I'm not a Christian, and I don't read the Bible. So, I don't want to misrepresent myself. I just know that most Americans are, and they can relate better to quotes from the Bible -- know what I mean?[/quote]

OK I see. And by the way no criticism was intended, I'm just observing that this line of thinking has no practical application in our lives. And it never will. That's not a criticism, just an expression of my opinion.

Especially when it comes to our kids, we're genetically programmed to look out for ourselves to provide as much as we possibly can for them. I don't view myself as my brother's keeper, I view myself as my daughters' keeper. And consciously or unconsciously, I could never strip that away from myself.

Nice thought though, file it under the category of 'wouldn't it be nice.'

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;569160]I'm sure if you met me in real life you would think otherwise, and I'm sure I would do the same of you. Just keep in mind, you were the one who jumped in just to insult me.[/quote]

Exactly where did ANYONE insult you? Your reaction to someone not agreeing with you is that they are insulting you? I think you should heed some of the sentiments you yourself have already written because the only one here who is "assuming" what others are thinking is you.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;569129]I certainly hope you are right Saden, I will say your hyper-defensiveness of Obama is a little weird. I have clearly said I believe both parties are at fault for the debt. Probably the Republicans moreso because of their playing politics with it. I will give you that the chart you presented makes the debt seem oh so silly(nice link to a republican bashing site, oh so much more unbiased than Fox or BCBS), so again, I hope you are right. However, the substantial difference in the all time high debt at the beginning of the chart, and what we are currently experiencing, is that one was due to specific incidents, the war, the other is a systemic increase that cannot be reduced without painful cuts in infrastructure at some point. There is an article today about California's budget agreement, and the painful cuts to follow. I realize the difference is that California cannot print its own money and is much more tied to a "real" economy.[/quote]


The difference is the data for links I provided is readily available and can be easily verified. If I were you I would try to catch saden in a lie and say "ahaaa, you're wrong saden because [URL="http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/SelectTable.asp?Popular=Y"]I looked[/URL] at the [URL="http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=5&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Freq=Year&FirstYear=1929&LastYear=2008&3Place=N&Update=Update&JavaBox=no#Mid"]GDP data[/URL] and the [URL="http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm"]national debt data[/URL] and your chart is totally wrong." Fox and BCBS make claims that I can't verify. If I don't have the methodology used I can't investigate further and if that's the case we enter the realm of opinions. Plus the whole thing is a clusterf*ck of self-referencing and quotation...they're all refering to the BCBSA study. It's doggy work and I f'ing loath doggy work.

If you dislike Obama as president you would totally hate me as president. Unfortunately, I'm not POTUS, sigh.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Schneed10;569168]OK I see. And by the way no criticism was intended, I'm just observing that this line of thinking has no practical application in our lives. And it never will. That's not a criticism, just an expression of my opinion.

Especially when it comes to our kids, we're genetically programmed to look out for ourselves to provide as much as we possibly can for them. I don't view myself as my brother's keeper, I view myself as my daughters' keeper. And consciously or unconsciously, I could never strip that away from myself.

Nice thought though, file it under the category of 'wouldn't it be nice.'[/quote]

My thought on self interest goes even deeper. No human does one single thing ever that doesn't provide benefit to them self. Nothing. It isn't possible for us to act in any different way. The main crux is that "benefit" is different from person to person. I, like you, would do anything to protect my kids. Why? Why do I care about some other human so much? Well I am responsible for existence(at least 50%) so I feel I am responsible to get them through life as safely and happily as possible, Why? Because I'd feel like a pure ass if I didn't. And there it is. I do it so I don't feel like an ass. That's an extremely simple explanation for a much more complicated situation but at it's base it is probably the reason that everyone who loves and cherishes their kids do so. It all comes back to the self. There is no other way.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;569172]If you dislike Obama as president you would totally hate me as president. Unfortunately, I'm not POTUS, sigh.[/quote]

Actually I don't think I would so much. I would trust that you'd do everything in your power to implement your ideas...no compromise. Then we could at least see if the ideas work based on the results. And I think you'd abandon your ideas if they didn't work. One of the biggest problems in DC is that the ideas that eventually get passed and implemented are BS compromises that bastardize the philosophical premise they're based on. Thus, gaining any real judgment based on performance is nearly impossible because the implementation has become such a cluster. Absent a similar conservative candidate(in terms of basic approach/methodology) I'd probably vote for you. Sort of a "fine, time to prove it" vote.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BringBackJoeT;569112]It's called the Children's Health Insurance Program (aka, the "CHIP" program). And, unless I am mistaken, the reauthorization of the program did not extend coverage to children of illegal aliens.[/quote]
[url=http://www.chipmedicaid.org/english/qualify.asp]CHIP | Children's Medicaid[/url]

Here is a clip of who can qualify:

The citizenship or immigration status of the parents does not affect the children's eligibility and is not reported on the application form.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;569169]Exactly where did ANYONE insult you? Your reaction to someone not agreeing with you is that they are insulting you? I think you should heed some of the sentiments you yourself have already written because the only one here who is "assuming" what others are thinking is you.[/quote]

Here are a couple of instances where you insulted me:

[quote=FRPLG;568915]Not to put it too harshly but [your ideas are] a load of crap.[/quote]

An opinion would be, "I *think* your ideas are a load of crap." Here you present it as fact. Semantics, I guess.

[quote=FRPLG;569047]Pretty much [you are doomed/dysfunctional]. Instead of some fairyland fantasy utopia you should consider taking a long hard look at the real world. Seems like everyone else in this thread at least a has firm grasp on reality.[/quote]

Here you suggest that my ideas are worthless, because you imply it is impossible to apply them to the "real" world, as you see it. Opinions are subjective. Possibility and Impossibility are not. Here you are presenting your opinion as fact again. Semantics, I guess.

You also agree with my sarcastic response that I am dysfunctional, although not in a sarcastic way. You say that I don't have a firm grasp on reality. I suppose this is your opinion, but opinions can be insulting if worded improperly. Do you not think it is insulting to basically say somebody is a crazy lunatic? Because that is how I read your responses.

You're basically saying bad things about me, and hiding behind the defense of opinion. As if an opinion could never be insulting, or if a person is insulted by an opinion there must be something wrong with them.

If I insulted somebody, and they brought it to my attention, I would apologize -- because it is usually not my intention to insult people. So, I apologize if I ever insulted you. Anyways, I'm not looking for an apology. I just wanted to point out that your responses could be construed as insulting, and that I didn't start the flame war.

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;569114]That was a rhetorical question genius. You know, to highlight the cost of what he is suggesting and to see how it compares to actually providing a universal heal care plan with a public option. And you wonder why I ignore you.[/quote]

The problem as I see it is that you cannot have UHC and a private plan together and have it work. The problem is that under the UHC they will have to take in all the sick and uninsured people and it will drive up the cost. The healthy people will stay on their private plan which will be cheaper. See the results of Mass. and thats is a fine example of trying to mix the two.I know this and I'm sure Obama knows this so he starts with the 45 million and next thing we know to fix the entire problem they then push UHC.

Re: Obama Care
 

It's not gonna pass the way he wants it to. We'll see how his administration deals with it's first major gut check. His own party is divided over the issue, he's using scare tactics, and he's cutting deals in private with hospitals and pharmaceutical companies (something he said would be done not privately but on C-SPAN during the campaign). He said the Republicans "want to delay action so the special interests can kill it," all the while wheeling and dealing with certain special interests who can butter his bread.

[url=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/67b99268-7633-11de-9e59-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1]FT.com / US / Politics & Foreign policy - Obama hits at healthcare ‘scare’ tactics[/url]
[url=http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99J4SS80&show_article=1]PROMISES, PROMISES: Do Obama deals break pledge?[/url]
[url=http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99IV05G2&show_article=1]Senior Democrat says no consensus on health bill[/url]
[url=http://www.ajc.com/health/democrats-divided-on-health-96628.html]Democrats divided on health care overhaul*| ajc.com[/url]

Blah. Typical politics. Crap.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;569110]I don't ignore you, I'm just not that into you and your rants. Enjoy [URL="http://zfacts.com/p/318.html"]this chart[/URL] and I hope you learn something (Note: anything above the Obama line is all on Obama):

[IMG]http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP.gif[/IMG][/quote]
They forgot to label/red line FDR.

Re: Obama Care
 

[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/22/doctors-wage-war-obamas-health-care-overhaul/"]Doctors Wage War Against Obama's Health Care Overhaul - Political News - FOXNews.com[/URL]

We've debated a lot about proposals and who pays, etc. etc. But here are two points that are definitely not good for us as patients:

1) This is war," Dr. George Watson, a Kansas physician and president-elect of the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons, told FOXNews.com Thursday. "This is a bureaucratic boondoggle to grab control of health care. Everything that has been proposed in the 1,018 page bill will contribute to the ruination of medicine."
Watson said the president's reform bill is loaded with rules and regulations that will ultimately result in shoddy patient care and long waiting lines. He blasted the bill as "insidious" by forcing doctors contracted with Medicare into the nationalized plan -- a "trap" he described as "involuntary servitude."

This doc is obviously pretty pissed-off as are many others. When I'm knocked out and the guy with a knife getting ready to dig around inside me is pissed-off at the new system of government run health care, that's not a real comfortable feeling for me

2) "Opponents of the bill also charge that it will deter prospective doctors from pursuing a medical degree -- adding to preexisting concerns over the current number of doctors."

There's a shortage of doctors in Canada already (which proponents of Obama's plan attribute to other factors). My question is, why would a bright kid sacrifice the time, money, energy to make it through med school, internships, etc., etc. to have the gov't dictate what he/she can make and still have the risk of a malpractice suit effectively ending his/her career. Answer: the best and brightest will find something else to do.