Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;1162564]It's an absolute lock that they'll tag him. I doubt anybody would sign him to a deal knowing they'd have to give up two 1sts. Stranger things have happened I guess, but I don't see it.

He'll either play under the tag this year as a Redskin, or he'll have a long term deal to be here for a while.[/quote]

I believe that as well. I don't think any team (including the Browns) would give up two first rounders for Cousins either. The only scenario that would make sense to me involving the nonexclusive, and one I used as an example earlier, would be in the case of the Chargers (or whoever they plan to be called later on lol), and Phillip Rivers not wanting to go down with that ship. Maybe complains enough to where he wants a trade, and the Redskins work out some sort of trade for Kirk Cousins. But other than that, I honestly believe the Redskins main intent is to get Cousins signed. Maybe I'm wrong and they'll get him signed the day after the Super Bowl. That would be great!

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1162566]is it duress if duct tape and hookers are used?[/quote]

It depends on which street corner you got the hookers from, and if the duct tape was purchased from Home Depot or Lowe's.

Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

Kirk Cousins's ceiling right now appears to be Alex Smith. And the Chiefs were the most complete team to me in the playoffs.

What does that mean for you with Kirk Cousins leading the Redskins?

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=warriorzpath;1163002]Kirk Cousins's ceiling right now appears to be Alex Smith. And the Chiefs were the most complete team to me in the playoffs.

What does that mean for you with Kirk Cousins leading the Redskins?[/quote]

Actually, watching Alex Smith last night, I still feel Kirk Cousins is better than Smith. However, Smith has grown into being a solid game manager, but he still has a weak arm and a slow wind up when he throws the ball.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=metalskins;1163004]Actually, watching Alex Smith last night, I still feel Kirk Cousins is better than Smith. However, Smith has grown into being a solid game manager, but he still has a weak arm and a slow wind up when he throws the ball.[/QUOTE]



There's slight differences in strengths and weaknesses, but I think they're comparable. Biggest difference to me that makes Alex Smith better is being veteran savvy.

The most noticeable similarity that both share and that you describe Smith as, is they are great managers. And that's where their ceilings are.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

... historically, you can't contend for a championship with a game manager unless you have a top defense with an elite impact defensive player.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

The Smith / Cousins comparison makes no sense to me. One is extremely conservative and tends to throw the ball away or tuck it and run. The other will hang in the pocket patiently and throw deep down the field.

The better comparison for Cousins is Andy Dalton. That still gets you to the same place - decent QB but not transcendent.

The teams playing in the AFC and NFC championships tell you all you need to know about the importance of a top notch QB.

Part of me thinks tagging and trading Cousins wouldn't be the worst thing. But the other part of me thinks he can still keep getting better. There's no reason to think we've seen his ceiling yet.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;1163016]The Smith / Cousins comparison makes no sense to me. One is extremely conservative and tends to throw the ball away or tuck it and run. The other will hang in the pocket patiently and throw deep down the field.



The better comparison for Cousins is Andy Dalton. That still gets you to the same place - decent QB but not transcendent.



The teams playing in the AFC and NFC championships tell you all you need to know about the importance of a top notch QB.



Part of me thinks tagging and trading Cousins wouldn't be the worst thing. But the other part of me thinks he can still keep getting better. There's no reason to think we've seen his ceiling yet.[/QUOTE]



I wouldn't say that there's no reason. There's more there than not. He's had more than enough development time and actual game experience to show what he's got. He's still got time, but what his contract demands say- he's saying he's already there.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

Kirk is no game manager

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;1163016]The Smith / Cousins comparison makes no sense to me. One is extremely conservative and tends to throw the ball away or tuck it and run. The other will hang in the pocket patiently and throw deep down the field.

The better comparison for Cousins is Andy Dalton. That still gets you to the same place - decent QB but not transcendent.

The teams playing in the AFC and NFC championships tell you all you need to know about the importance of a top notch QB.

Part of me thinks tagging and trading Cousins wouldn't be the worst thing. But the other part of me thinks he can still keep getting better. There's no reason to think we've seen his ceiling yet.[/quote]

Your last paragraph is the crux of the whole decision. Is he going to get better or is he at his ceiling? If he's at his ceiling he's about to be drastically over paid and if we gamble that he won't get better and get rid of him then we're up a creek. If we franchise him again we have to draft another QB this year, because we could be in same position next year and you aren't paying him 30+ million.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=warriorzpath;1163007]There's slight differences in strengths and weaknesses, but I think they're comparable. Biggest difference to me that makes Alex Smith better is being veteran savvy.

The most noticeable similarity that both share and that you describe Smith as, is they are great managers. And that's where their ceilings are.[/quote]

It took Alex Smith a long time to get that veteran savvy. Absolutely no reason to believe that Cousins won't have the same type of savvy as he matures in the NFL. That said, I don't see much of a comparison. I think Smith is a solid game manager, Cousins is a gunslinger and a potential playmaker.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1163022]Your last paragraph is the crux of the whole decision. Is he going to get better or is he at his ceiling? If he's at his ceiling he's about to be drastically over paid and if we gamble that he won't get better and get rid of him then we're up a creek. If we franchise him again we have to draft another QB this year, because we could be in same position next year and you aren't paying him 30+ million.[/quote]

And of course the variable in the equation that we can't account for is what is his contract demand?

I think it's worth it to sign him to a contract that hitches our wagon to him for 2 or 3 years. He's shown enough to warrant a few more years of commitment to find out if he can keep growing.

But if his demands include so much guaranteed money that we'd be committing for 4+ years before we'd be able to escape with cap relief, or if he's asking to take up just too darn much of the cap, then I'm good with franchising him.

And through all of it, whether we franchise him or whether we sign him, I would not stop drafting QBs. I wouldn't reach, and I wouldn't necessarily spend a 1st rounder. But if I'm McCloughan and I think I've got a Russell Wilson with my 3rd rounder, then I'm jumping on it.

Kirk might get even better and become a top notch QB. But if he's not I want to have options sooner rather than later.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1163020]Kirk is no game manager[/QUOTE]



There's been at least one respected talent evaluator that called him that. So I think it's a valid opinion and discussion point.

Bucky Brooks:
Really, he (Cousins) is a "game manager" or "trailer" (quarterback carried by his team) on a league-wide scale.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=warriorzpath;1163027]There's been at least one respected talent evaluator that called him that. So I think it's a valid opinion and discussion point.

Bucky Brooks:
Really, he (Cousins) is a "game manager" or "trailer" (quarterback carried by his team) on a league-wide scale.[/quote]

K well I for one don't understand that, because I think of game managers as QBs who keep it conservative and avoid making mistakes because their goal is to play complementary football. Cousins chucks it downfield. His fatal flaw in Week 17 was forcing a ball into a spot he shouldn't have.

So basically Bucky Brooks can eat shit and die because he has no idea what he's talking about.

Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;1163029]K well I for one don't understand that, because I think of game managers as QBs who keep it conservative and avoid making mistakes because their goal is to play complementary football. Cousins chucks it downfield. His fatal flaw in Week 17 was forcing a ball into a spot he shouldn't have.



So basically Bucky Brooks can eat shit and die because he has no idea what he's talking about.[/QUOTE]



I understand your opinion, but let's not make this out to be a nonsensical point. Actually, Cooley also said that Cousins played scared against the Giants- to give you another person's perspective of that game, which is relevant in this discussion because of the importance of the game.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

Yeah I'm definitely not saying Cousins should be immune to criticism; if you read my posts above you can see I'm caught somewhere between long term commitment if fair and trade him if you can get a good deal, like two first round picks.

I just take umbrage at the term game manager. That doesn't fit. He's a gunslinger. The question is can he become a gunslinger who comes through in the clutch as opposed to one that throws the big INT against the Giants in Week 17.

I definitely have questions about him, but I've seen enough to want to commit about three years to him.

Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;1163031]Yeah I'm definitely not saying Cousins should be immune to criticism; if you read my posts above you can see I'm caught somewhere between long term commitment if fair and trade him if you can get a good deal, like two first round picks.



I just take umbrage at the term game manager. That doesn't fit. He's a gunslinger. The question is can he become a gunslinger who comes through in the clutch as opposed to one that throws the big INT against the Giants in Week 17.



I definitely have questions about him, but I've seen enough to want to commit about three years to him.[/QUOTE]



I want the Redskins to sign him too but I think it's valid to be reluctant at his asking price. I still think it's the best thing to sign him even with what he's asking for but it's not without risk and drawbacks- considering that Cousins may not reach the expectations of his contract.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

A game manager isn't someone who throws for nearly 5000 yards and accounts for 30 TDs. Game manager fits well with someone like Alex Smith, but his game and Cousins are totally different.

Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1163033]A game manager isn't someone who throws for nearly 5000 yards and accounts for 30 TDs. Game manager fits well with someone like Alex Smith, but his game and Cousins are totally different.[/QUOTE]



Well that's where Bucky Brooks's "trailer" comment comes into play. His production is elevated by others.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

I still don't see it. If you put Smith in this offense do you think he would put up the same numbers? I don't.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=warriorzpath;1163034]Well that's where Bucky Brooks's "trailer" comment comes into play. His production is elevated by others.[/quote]

It is obvious to anyone, Kirk was carried by the running game and the defense.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=MTK;1163035]I still don't see it. If you put Smith in this offense do you think he would put up the same numbers? I don't.[/quote]

or the flip side, if you put KC in that game yesterday, does he hit the passes Smith missed. There were several passes, and moments that KC would have made, and KC would have won, probably going away the way KC's D played on their half of the field.

Comparing Alex Smith and KC at this point is fairly ludicrous.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1163037]or the flip side, if you put KC in that game yesterday, does he hit the passes Smith missed. There were several passes, and moments that KC would have made, and KC would have won, probably going away the way KC's D played on their half of the field.



Comparing Alex Smith and KC at this point is fairly ludicrous.[/QUOTE]



What's so ridiculous about it? Smith has also produced enough to get them to this point. To being a legit championship contender.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=DYoungJelly;1163036]It is obvious to anyone, Kirk was carried by the running game and the defense.[/QUOTE]



Save the snarky comments for rest of the fanboys. This guy did this for a living and also played for years.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=warriorzpath;1163042]What's so ridiculous about it? Smith has also produced enough to get them to this point. To being a legit championship contender.[/quote]

Kansas offense:

PASS YDS
233.8
[B](19th)[/B]

Kansas defense:
PTS
19.4
[B](7th)[/B]

Washington offense:

PASS YDS
297.4
[B](2nd)[/B]

Washington Defense:
PTS
23.9
[B](19th)[/B]


It's ludicrous to think Smith is why Kansas City was in the playoffs. Kansas made the playoffs on the back of a defense that stopped Pittsburgh on six separate possessions. The Skins almost made the playoffs despite a defense that gave up 38 to that same Pittsburgh team.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1163044]Kansas offense:



PASS YDS

233.8

[B](19th)[/B]



Kansas defense:

PTS

19.4

[B](7th)[/B]



Washington offense:



PASS YDS

297.4

[B](2nd)[/B]



Washington Defense:

PTS

23.9

[B](19th)[/B]





It's ludicrous to think Smith is why Kansas City was in the playoffs. Kansas made the playoffs on the back of a defense that stopped Pittsburgh on six separate possessions. The Skins almost made the playoffs despite a defense that gave up 38 to that same Pittsburgh team.[/QUOTE]



I didn't say that Smith was the reason the Chiefs were in the playoffs. On the contrary- I even said that the Chiefs were probably the most complete team in the playoffs.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=warriorzpath;1163046]I didn't say that Smith was the reason the Chiefs were in the playoffs. On the contrary- I even said that the Chiefs were probably the most complete team in the playoffs.[/quote]

Ok, then I simply revert to my first point, Comparing KC to Smith at this point is ludicrous. You say the Chiefs are the most complete team, but Smith had worse numbers than KC had. Seems like by definition KC is better, and in fact, it's probably not even close.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1163048]Ok, then I simply revert to my first point, Comparing KC to Smith at this point is ludicrous. You say the Chiefs are the most complete team, but Smith had worse numbers than KC had. Seems like by definition KC is better, and in fact, it's probably not even close.[/QUOTE]



Just to save time and multiple reposts. Please just read my posts just a page before this.

Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

It might make more sense and save me from being so redundant like so many have complained about.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

This is a fantasy site, but about midway down the page they chart game performance of Cousins, and of Smith.
[url=http://edraft.com/nfl/fantasy-football/tools/start-sit/27338/alex-smith-vs-kirk-cousins/]Alex Smith vs Kirk Cousins[/url]

Cousins graph is consistently above the league average, and nears the peak multiple times while Smith's graph is mostly barely average to well below average.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1163052]This is a fantasy site, but about midway down the page they chart game performance of Cousins, and of Smith.

[url=http://edraft.com/nfl/fantasy-football/tools/start-sit/27338/alex-smith-vs-kirk-cousins/]Alex Smith vs Kirk Cousins[/url]



Cousins graph is consistently above the league average, and nears the peak multiple times while Smith's graph is mostly barely average to well below average.[/QUOTE]



Did you read my Bucky Brooks posts?

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=warriorzpath;1163050]Just to save time and multiple reposts. Please just read my posts just a page before this.[/quote]

Schneed clearly refuted your concept of him as a game manager, and there is no way Alex Smith is KC's ceiling, because KC has already clearly exceeded Smith's output. So you have literally no point to the posts a page before, or this one. You undervalue what KC does on the football field by comparing him to Smith, or by looking at him as a game manager, when neither of those comparisons are in any way accurate.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=warriorzpath;1163053]Did you read my Bucky Brooks posts?[/quote]

Was it after Question Number 3?

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;1163026]And of course the variable in the equation that we can't account for is what is his contract demand?

I think it's worth it to sign him to a contract that hitches our wagon to him for 2 or 3 years. He's shown enough to warrant a few more years of commitment to find out if he can keep growing.

But if his demands include so much guaranteed money that we'd be committing for 4+ years before we'd be able to escape with cap relief, or if he's asking to take up just too darn much of the cap, then I'm good with franchising him.

And through all of it, whether we franchise him or whether we sign him, I would not stop drafting QBs. I wouldn't reach, and I wouldn't necessarily spend a 1st rounder. But if I'm McCloughan and I think I've got a Russell Wilson with my 3rd rounder, then I'm jumping on it.

Kirk might get even better and become a top notch QB. But if he's not I want to have options sooner rather than later.[/quote]

Based on everything I've seen, it seems like 23 million is the floor of what he'll agree to. And if he has all the momentum people say he does he can probably get at least 4 years worth of guaranteed money. It's gonna be interesting how it all works out. No matter what happens there is gonna be some agreement and some disagreement here.

I was thinking mid round pick myself if he's franchised again. If he is franchised again, we have to keep McCoy, Sudfeld won't be on the team if a QB gets picked. I'm curious to know the Skins opinions about him after a year of coaching.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1163055]Was it after Question Number 3?[/QUOTE]



Was Question # 3 - is CRedskinsRule dumb or dumber than Mooby?

My answer is - I don't know.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=warriorzpath;1163002]Kirk Cousins's ceiling right now appears to be Alex Smith. And the Chiefs were the most complete team to me in the playoffs.

What does that mean for you with Kirk Cousins leading the Redskins?[/quote]


:laughing2

What the hell are you smoking? Kirk's ceiling is that of Alex Smith? Alex Smith has only eclipsed 20 TDs once in his career. Let that sink in. One time. As a former #1 overall pick. In Kirk's two years as a starter, he's bested any year that Smith has ever played in during his 12 years.

No man. They aren't even comparable, never the less claiming to be his ceiling. KC was fucking stupid to give Alex Smith that kind of money, and he's the kind of guy you can easily replace. Kirk on the other hand is not. Now granted, there is still a limit to what I would pay Kirk.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[url=http://isportsweb.com/2017/01/15/chicago-bears-free-agent-targets-kirk-cousins/]Chicago Bears Free Agency Targets: Kirk Cousins | isportsweb[/url]

Somehow i never thought about this situation: Cousins to the Bears?

Articles like this, even if pure fiction, show you that other teams fans want Cousins as their QB. They all see something that Washington doesn't seem to see.

I see Cousins being someone's franchise QB, while we potentially go through QB Hell again

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[quote=warriorzpath;1163057]Was Question # 3 - is CRedskinsRule dumb or dumber than Mooby?

My answer is - I don't know.[/quote]

That wasn't it, but I agree on the general principal of your answer as it applies to this topic -- You don't know.

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1163060]That wasn't it, but I agree on the general principal of your answer as it applies to this topic -- You don't know.[/QUOTE]



Wait. I change my answer to dumber

Re: Kirk Cousins 24/7 thread
 

I'm not sold on Cousins as elite, but he is better than Alex Smith by a long shot. Cousins is a tier 2 qb, Smith is a tier 3. There's a big difference between the 2 tiers. The main question is: is a tier 2 qb worth 23+ million a year? If Cousins will sign for 22 or less we just about have to take the gamble. Any more than that and you can justify thinking of other options.