Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;832592]Enforcement of existing laws by federal agencies would be a good start. [B]The money saved by reducing illegal immigration far outweighs the cost of implementing any additional security measures[/B].[/quote]

THAT sort of Crazy talk will get you in trouble....blacklisted.....possibly stoned. I'm sure Kieth Olbermann will be contacting you shortly....

Re: Obama Care
 

The cost to provide contraception is revenue neutral, that's why there's no outrage from the insurance companies over the compromise. And as it's been pointed out, it costs significantly more to cover a pregancy.

It's a win win. Religious groups don't have to enforce a rule that goes against, according to them biblical teachings, and women aren't denyed coverage.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=12thMan;884061]The cost to provide contraception is revenue neutral, that's why there's no outrage from the insurance companies over the compromise. And as it's been pointed out, it costs significantly more to cover a pregancy.

It's a win win. Religious groups don't have to enforce a rule that goes against, according to them biblical teachings, and women aren't denyed coverage.[/quote]


Are we really arguing about birth control in 2012? This sort of crap makes you really hate organized religion. If they want to roll with this sort of nonsense we should take away their tax breaks. Fck'em.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;884062]Are we really arguing about birth control in 2012? This sort of crap makes you really hate organized religion. [B]If they want to roll with this sort of nonsense we should take away their tax breaks. Fck'em[/B].[/quote]

Essentially, the same arguments over Church v. State we have been having since Henry II asked the infamous question "Who shall rid me of this meddlesome priest"?

Some slough it off as an anachronistic religion - and I agree with the statement that it is this shit that makes religion seem like unicorns and flying pigs - BUT, the underlying question of when can the State regulate beliefs is ultimately a thorny problem and no simple answer exists. As I said of Henry II, the extent that secular regulations may intrude on religious belief is an old question faced by free societies and will not be going away anytime soon.

Re: Obama Care
 

A simple solution would be for each deity representing the particular faith to request their tax exempt status in person. That should narrow it down.

To zero.

Re: Obama Care
 

[url=http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html]Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice | Racism, Bias & Politics | Right-Wing and Left-Wing Ideology | LiveScience[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=The Goat;884231][url=http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html]Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice | Racism, Bias & Politics | Right-Wing and Left-Wing Ideology | LiveScience[/url][/quote]
What's funny to me is that psychometrics in its entirety, and IQ scores in particular, would be tossed out the window by those skeptical of statistics, and often on the grounds of unfairness.

I'd like to know how many readers of the article ever heard of the g factor when reading this article and were not using mere intuitions of intelligence. Sure, those who are psychologists know, but what about everyone else?

Maybe these fellas can help explain why left-wing Quebec threw a hissy fit about Randy Cunneyworth not being able to speak French. They'll probably bring up the "averages" explanation.

Re: Obama Care
 

The problem is not really the BC issues its the fact that all these mandates are one reason health insurance is so expensive.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;884536]The problem is not really the BC issues its the fact that all these mandates are one reason health insurance is so expensive.[/quote]

All I know is under the old system put in place by Bush I couldn't get the insurance I needed because of pre-existing conditions. Back then I couldn't find a job that fit my degree and the part time job I took on only offered 3 doctor visits a year for their insurance. AHCA gets passed and now I have quality insurance again, granted it's expensive at $400 a month with COBRA but certainly cheaper then having nothing.

Now part of me trust Romney to get this right because as Romney has said, as long as you continue getting some type of coverage companies won't be able to turn you down.

Still not sure though that deregulation (state lines)/regulation (preexisting conditions) will fix the problem. Sometimes deregulation works extremely well as seen with the airlines and other times its a disaster as seen with energy and Savings and loans.

Plus I all but expect plenty on insurance companies to abuse deregulation under the GOP.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;884558]All I know is under the old system put in place by Bush I couldn't get the insurance I needed because of pre-existing conditions. Back then I couldn't find a job that fit my degree and the part time job I took on only offered 3 doctor visits a year for their insurance. AHCA gets passed and now I have quality insurance again, granted it's expensive at $400 a month with COBRA but certainly cheaper then having nothing.

Now part of me trust Romney to get this right because as Romney has said, as long as you continue getting some type of coverage companies won't be able to turn you down.

Still not sure though that deregulation (state lines)/regulation (preexisting conditions) will fix the problem. Sometimes deregulation works extremely well as seen with the airlines and other times its a disaster as seen with energy and Savings and loans.

Plus I all but expect plenty on insurance companies to abuse deregulation under the GOP.[/quote]

well, energy got it wrong... they didn't account for limited transmission lines. So i guess its just 100% dependent on implementation.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;884558]All I know is under the old system put in place by Bush I couldn't get the insurance I needed because of pre-existing conditions. Back then I couldn't find a job that fit my degree and the part time job I took on only offered 3 doctor visits a year for their insurance. AHCA gets passed and now I have quality insurance again, granted it's expensive at $400 a month with COBRA but certainly cheaper then having nothing.

Now part of me trust Romney to get this right because as Romney has said, as long as you continue getting some type of coverage companies won't be able to turn you down.

Still not sure though that deregulation (state lines)/regulation (preexisting conditions) will fix the problem. Sometimes deregulation works extremely well as seen with the airlines and other times its a disaster as seen with energy and Savings and loans.

Plus I all but expect plenty on insurance companies to abuse deregulation under the GOP.[/quote]
I don't think Bush passed any real Health Ins legislation. I'm talking more about the mandates they push on us and force be to buy.They deregulated the phone companies and my office phone bill has dropped from around $500 per month to around $240 per month and thats with internet.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;884884]I don't think Bush passed any real Health Ins legislation. I'm talking more about the mandates they push on us and force be to buy.They deregulated the phone companies and my office phone bill has dropped from around $500 per month to around $240 per month and thats with internet.[/quote]

have to moved to/considered VoIP yet?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=That Guy;884993]have to moved to/considered VoIP yet?[/quote]

Whats VoIP? I looked it up and we do have one phone that uses the internet. Its used by a telemarketer who works from home and I'm not sold on that as of right now. It might be the provider but the quality is not as good as the land lines. It also seems to have more problems then regular land lines but it will probably get better. It should also drive down the price even more for land lines. At one time not so long ago I was paying $110 per each line coming into the office and now it runs less then $50 per line.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;884884]I don't think Bush passed any real Health Ins legislation. I'm talking more about the mandates they push on us and force be to buy.They deregulated the phone companies and my office phone bill has dropped from around $500 per month to around $240 per month and thats with internet.[/quote]


Your bill has dropped not because of deregulation, but because legacy phone service is all but done for. It's hanging on it's last thread. VoIP is the wave of the future. (wired and wireless)

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=NC_Skins;885295]Your bill has dropped not because of deregulation, but because legacy phone service is all but done for. It's hanging on it's last thread. VoIP is the wave of the future. (wired and wireless)[/quote]

The very day deregulation started in Va I switched my phone service from Verizon which had been my only choice to COX which dropped my bill in half. That was 10 yrs ago but what do I know.

Re: Obama Care
 

one of the big points right now is paying for birth control. really? this is 2012, right?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=dmek25;885376]one of the big points right now is paying for birth control. really? this is 2012, right?[/quote]

Essentially, because religious groups refuse to sign on.

I say, fine, if you want to have religious beliefs that preclude you from offering such services simply wheel out your deity, have him/her/it answer a few questions and we'll sign off on your right to refuse to offer such.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=dmek25;885376]one of the big points right now is paying for birth control. really? this is 2012, right?[/quote]


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/bekjY.png[/IMG]

Re: Obama Care
 

[url=http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/federal-health-care-fraud-crackdown-saves-us-41-billion]Federal Health-Care Fraud Crackdown Saves US $4.1 billion | Alaska Dispatch[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=NC_Skins;885459][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/bekjY.png[/IMG][/quote]

:laughing2

Re: Obama Care
 

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]If people were upset with the fed gov forcing religious institutions to provide birth control to their employees, i wonder if anyone will be upset that all of us will be forced to pay $1 per month for abortions?[/FONT][/COLOR]


“To comply with the accounting requirement, plans will collect a $1 abortion surcharge from each premium payer,” the pro-life source informed LifeNews. “The enrollee will make two payments, $1 per month for abortion and another payment for the rest of the services covered. As described in the rule, the surcharge can only be disclosed to the enrollee at the time of enrollment. Furthermore, insurance plans may only advertise the total cost of the premiums without disclosing that enrollees will be charged a $1 per month fee to pay directly subsidize abortions.”

[URL="http://nation.foxnews.com/obamacare/2012/03/13/1-abortions-obamacare"]$1 Abortions in Obamacare - Obamacare - Fox Nation[/URL]



[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Crazy non-progressives with their backward values. They are so [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]intolerant!!! [/FONT][/COLOR]Why should someone not have to provide birth control or abortions for others, just because it goes against their religous beliefs!? After all this is America!!! The absurdity! [/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Obama Care
 

How come free clinics charge for abortions?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=mlmpetert;898656]

“To comply with the accounting requirement, plans will collect a $1 abortion surcharge from each premium payer,” the pro-life source informed LifeNews. [/quote]

Two sources I'd take with a grain of salt. Has anyone read the wording of the bill?

[I]1) At least one plan in the public option must provide coverage for abortion services and at least one must not provide coverage;
2) FOR THE PLAN(S) THAT DO provide such coverage, the Secretary shall estimate the average actuarial cost of those services, in an amount not less than $1 per enrollee [B]IN A PLAN THAT DOES PROVIDE SUCH COVERAGE[/B].
3) The issuer of a [B]PLAN THAT DOES PROVIDE SUCH COVERAGE[/B] shall segregate an amount equal to that estimate and shall keep it separate from funds received from the government.
[/I]
Silly religious folk and their transparent scare tactics.

'Death Panel', anyone?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=RedskinRat;898864]Two sources I'd take with a grain of salt. Has anyone read the wording of the bill?

[I]1) At least one plan in the public option must provide coverage for abortion services and at least one must not provide coverage;[/I]
[I]2) FOR THE PLAN(S) THAT DO provide such coverage, the Secretary shall estimate the average actuarial cost of those services, in an amount not less than $1 per enrollee [B]IN A PLAN THAT DOES PROVIDE SUCH COVERAGE[/B].[/I]
[I]3) The issuer of a [B]PLAN THAT DOES PROVIDE SUCH COVERAGE[/B] shall [B]segregate an amount equal to that estimate and shall keep it separate from funds received from the government.[/B][/I]

Silly religious folk and their transparent scare tactics.

'Death Panel', anyone?[/quote]

If I'm reading that right they say you still pay in some form.

[I]shall [B]segregate an amount equal to that estimate and shall keep it separate from funds received from the government.[/B][/I]

[B][/B]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;899223][B][I]If we have to pay for the sluts abortions we should make them video tape it so we can all watch.[/I][/B][/quote]

Not cool, dude.

Re: Obama Care
 

What's not cool? OH, just pay for the abortions and STFU.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=RedskinRat;899262]Not cool, dude.[/quote]

RedskinRat the voice of reason? Who'da thunk it?

Re: Obama Care
 

It looks like i may be spreading some mis-information, if so my bad not my intent at all. RedskinRat do you have any link to back up what you posted? It seems like what youre posting is from 2009, while what ive heard seems to be referencing a new/modified rule.

Agian i think i jumped the gun with my post but i dont really see anything out there that says the new news some are claiming of Dollar Menu abortion premiums paid for by all is false.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;899307]What's not cool? OH, just pay for the abortions and STFU.[/quote]

Calling women 'sluts' because they choose an abortion or wanting to watch the process.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=mlmpetert;899461]It looks like i may be spreading some mis-information, if so my bad not my intent at all. RedskinRat do you have any link to back up what you posted? It seems like what youre posting is from 2009, while what ive heard seems to be referencing a new/modified rule.

Agian i think i jumped the gun with my post but i dont really see anything out there that says the new news some are claiming of Dollar Menu abortion premiums paid for by all is false.[/quote]


[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/8061.pdf"]www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/8061.pdf[/URL]

:thumb:

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=mooby;899327]RedskinRat the voice of reason? Who'da thunk it?[/quote]

That's a sad sign if it were true. I'll go back to being my usual hateful bag of venom in a few posts. :oink:

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=RedskinRat;899487]That's a sad sign if it were true. I'll go back to being my usual hateful bag of venom in a few posts. :oink:[/quote]

You can be the nice guy and I'll be the Hateful bag of venom for a few days.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;899641]You can be the nice guy and I'll be the Hateful bag of venom for a few days.[/quote]

Deal. I may have to drop a 'sack of sarcastic bile' at some point, there's only so much 'nice' I can do.

Re: Obama Care
 

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/supreme-court-justices-challenge-obama-administration-over-health-170042500.html]Supreme Court justices challenge Obama administration over health care law | The Ticket - Yahoo! News[/url]

[I]Scalia and Roberts repeatedly warned that the case could result in Congress using the Commerce Clause to compel all kinds of behavior.

"If the government can do this, what is left? What else can it not do?" asked Scalia. "All bets are off," Roberts agreed.
[/I]

Re: Obama Care
 

I think the states win but I still think we have a big problem with people who can afford health ins and choose not to purchase coverage. I think we just tell them that's fine but they can be refused medical treatment if they cannot pay up front.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;904624] I think we just tell them that's fine but they can be refused medical treatment if they cannot pay up front.[/quote]

Hippocratic oath?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=RedskinRat;904637]Hippocratic oath?[/quote]
What?

Re: Obama Care
 

[I]I swear by Apollo the Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods, and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art – if they desire to learn it – without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken the oath according to medical law, but to no one else.

I will apply dietic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep myself holding such things shameful to be spoken about.
If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honoured with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.[/I]

or
[I]
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not", nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, be respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.[/I]

Ethical medicine.

Re: Obama Care
 

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/08/us-deaths-rankings-idUSN0765165020080108]France best, U.S. worst in preventable death ranking | Reuters[/url]

US now 19th out of 19 industrialized nations in healthcare preventable deaths. Slipping 4 slots since the last study was conducted. France and Japan still dominating.

Re: Obama Care
 

Yeah, they've done this study before (Just before the last election, suspiciously enough) and the rebuttal I'll link to slaps it down nicely:

[URL="http://healthblog.ncpa.org/commonwealth-ranking-are-we-really-19th-out-of-19/"]Are we really- 19th-out-of-19[/URL]

Choosing Nonmedical Benchmarks
Cherry-Picking the Benchmarks
Using Questionable Benchmarks
Equating Low Spending with Efficiency
Using Questionable Measurements
Confusing "Access" with "Third-Party Insurance"
Ignoring Self-Insurance
Ignoring Assets
Applying the Commonwealth Criteria of "Underinsured" to the Medicare Population
Ignoring Rationing by Waiting
Misusing Statistics.

Tres bon!