Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;538953]Your assessment to me boils down to the highlighted line. [B]According to you Vietnam was a win, Korea was a win. As with everything in life taking a long term view tremendously increases the chance of success. I could take the same long term view with respect to Iraq and say in 100 years Iraq would become a "democracy" without us having to go to war.[/B]
[/quote]
Well, I do think life is better viewed in a longterm view, and I think it is a big stretch to say Iraq would necessarily have been a democracy in 100 years without our involvement.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=Buster;539096]232 Years later, our nation is still "shaky" and not yet perfected.

Iraq has come a LONG way from being the savage dictatorship they were just a few years ago. In fact, because of our help, it could be said they've progressed faster than we did after our own founding. [B]We trashed our founding documents and started all over again a decade into the experiment.[/B][/quote]

Outstanding point

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

Perhaps it's time to explore going into Sudan and continue to spread democracy?

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;539115]Well, I do think life is better viewed in a longterm view, and I think it is a big stretch to say Iraq would necessarily have been a democracy in 100 years without our involvement.[/quote]
I don't think we can really call Iraq a democracy until we are out of there and they are having fair and honest elections on their own. The hope is that they stay a democracy and it spreads over the middle east but thats asking alot.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;538670]I served 5 years my friend, in the early 90's; if I had given my life, my family would have considered it a personal loss, but they would have known i joined with open eyes, and would have been proud of my contribution. No one forced me to join, and when i swore my oath, i did not say "but if i die it is a loss" I did not want to die, i did not even want to go to bosnia (and thankfully didn't, my unit left 1 month after i pcs'd to the states) but it was my duty, and one i would have done if called upon. to ask that question demeans our soldiers and their families. No one person will consider a lost life a win in any situation. If a man goes to jail, his family will consider it a loss, but if it upholds our country's laws it may very well have been a win. No one family, when focused on their child/sibling/parent will consider a death a win, but they may see the it as a part of a greater truth, and gain strength and peace in that vision.

My friend, every loss is tragic, 9-11 was tragic, the kurds who were tossed in the mass graves were tragic, our soldiers sacrifice is tragic, but if in the end a government is formed that prevents any more mass grave, allows free participation in the political process, and provides for stability in the region then our families will look on their personal tragedy with a belief that it was not in vain.[/quote]

Very well said.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

It never ceases to amaze me how so many value an american life over that of any other nationality. When CRedskinsRule discusses the actual gains in Iraq and how our losses could not be viewed as "a complete waste" and that our soldiers did not "die for no reason," it's because he's speaking to the greater good of righting wrongs. I can understand that crowd that rails when they see flag covered coffins but I really believe there is a majority that is simply missing the point. Hussein and his party were violating every single human right. Exterminating mass quantities of human beings. But because those were not americans dying everyday, the sacrifice made by our servicemembers was without merit? REALLY? Time to grow up and work on your world view. It's not all about north america.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=firstdown;539148]I don't think we can really call Iraq a democracy until we are out of there and they are having fair and honest elections on their own. The hope is that they stay a democracy and it spreads over the middle east but thats asking alot.[/quote]

Let me ask you this. Would you call Germany circa 1976 a democracy? Remember our troops were there. Our influence was certainly there. It had no solid tradition, without United States soldiers staying there for democracy to take hold. In fact, one could easily devise an alternate history where another sphere of influence prevailed and Germany became a socialist state. If the rights which we cherish are indeed rights that are inalienable (i read that somewhere) then us maintaining a sphere of influence to protect and extend those rights has merit and value.

Patriotic Rant follows:

NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE LAST 1000 YEARS, has impacted in as positive a way, this world's course, as the United States of America. Hundreds of Thousands of Americans have given their life for the ultimate belief that every person on this earth has sanctity and faith and merit solely because that person was born. We have fought many a good fight in order to protect the world from the tyranny of the few, even while suffering the vitriolic attacks of those who hate us. Seriously, if we are an oppressing/occupying force we could rule this world by brute force, but we seek counsel, we listen to dissent, we work with every government that allows their citizens to have basic human dignity. Yes we do make mistakes, we assume our way is right, we sometimes do bone-headed moves, but we do not OCCUPY Iraq. Go ask a West German citizen which country they wanted to have on their side, go ask an East German, guess what both will say they want the Americans. Go travel on the road from west germany to berlin, see what happens when you get into an oppressed country's area. Their land was used and cast off, their people had what was theirs taken from them and given to the oppressing country.
end patriotic rant

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

Welcome back BB.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;539169]Let me ask you this. Would you call Germany circa 1976 a democracy? Remember our troops were there. Our influence was certainly there. It had no solid tradition, without United States soldiers staying there for democracy to take hold. In fact, one could easily devise an alternate history where another sphere of influence prevailed and Germany became a socialist state. If the rights which we cherish are indeed rights that are inalienable (i read that somewhere) then us maintaining a sphere of influence to protect and extend those rights has merit and value.

Patriotic Rant follows:

[B]NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE LAST 1000 YEARS, has impacted in as positive a way, this world's course, as the United States of America. [/B]Hundreds of Thousands of Americans have given their life for the ultimate belief that every person on this earth has sanctity and faith and merit solely because that person was born. We have fought many a good fight in order to protect the world from the tyranny of the few, even while suffering the vitriolic attacks of those who hate us. Seriously, if we are an oppressing/occupying force we could rule this world by brute force, but we seek counsel, we listen to dissent, we work with every government that allows their citizens to have basic human dignity. Yes we do make mistakes, we assume our way is right, we sometimes do bone-headed moves, but we do not OCCUPY Iraq. Go ask a West German citizen which country they wanted to have on their side, go ask an East German, guess what both will say they want the Americans. Go travel on the road from west germany to berlin, see what happens when you get into an oppressed country's area. Their land was used and cast off, their people had what was theirs taken from them and given to the oppressing country.
end patriotic rant[/quote]

American century yes, American millennium? That's a bit premature don't you think seeing how we haven't even reached the half way mark yet.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

Why is it i am so misunderstood??
I did not say American Millenium??? I said IN THE LAST 1000 years. That means look at every country that has existed between 1009AD and 2009AD and look what it has done for the world, and human individual growth. You might make an argument for Britain, but that's it.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;539179]Welcome back BB.[/quote]

Thanks,good to be back. Add here I had told myself i'd stay out of the parking lot.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;539182][B]Why is it i am so misunderstood??
I did not say American Millenium??? I said IN THE LAST 1000 years[/B]. That means look at every country that has existed between 1009AD and 2009AD and look what it has done for the world, and human individual growth. You might make an argument for Britain, but that's it.[/quote]


Huh? You are not misunderstood, when you say "in the last 1000 years" you are saying the last 1000 years are in the bag for America which means it's an [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Century"]American Millenium[/URL][B].[/B]

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;539190]Huh? You are not misunderstood, when you say "in the last 1000 years" you are saying the last 1000 years are in the bag for America which means it's an [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Century"]American Millenium[/URL][B].[/B][/quote]

Jesus Christ saden, are you dense?

He's saying no country THAT HAS EXISTED SOMETIME DURING THE LAST 1000 YEARS has made a greater impact than the United States.

And he's right.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=Schneed10;539191]Jesus Christ saden, are you dense?

[B]He's saying no country THAT HAS EXISTED DURING THE LAST 1000 YEARS has made a greater impact than the United States.[/B]

And he's right.[/quote]


LOL...what part of my speech contradicts that statement?

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;539193]LOL...what part of my speech contradicts that statement?[/quote]

The part where you seem to assume that only countries who were around for 1000 years qualify for discussion.