Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]how you get good teams is by covering your bases in FA and drafting the best talent you can use. not overpaying for one player when guys that can also be better quality starters for you are also available. we still need DB and OL depth, those needs didn't magically disappear because we took an OLB.

jon alston also fits your list of needs of being smart and fast.

in order to maximize talent, you have to have more than one player you can live with.

you think the eagles thought they'd get bunkley or justice without an expensive trade? no, but they got both anyways, which can be solid starters for them for 10 years.

trying to jusitify our pick post-draft doesn't have to include bashing the maximizing of talent as wrong, even if the skins choose not to do it.[/QUOTE]

The OL depth is going to be our down fall and not having a back up plan if Taylor is not able to play in 06! Getting A LB dosen't fill these needs. Didn't we learn any thing from Thomas and Jansen going down? People who don't learn from history are doom to repeat it!!!!!

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=SanFranSkinsFan]I agree, but I hate how we always have to give up picks. He's a solid tackler and has been really productive at the U. Yeah, we could have waited and grabbed another OLB, but this guy did go to the U and I'm happy to add a Miami LB to our team. We have to let LeMar stay at MLB with 4 interceptions, taking over play calls, so Hodge didn't fit. Miami......Vilma, Ray Lewis, DJ Williams, now we have a LB in McIntosh.....I'm pretty happy with Portis, Sean Taylor (no jail please), Santana from the U (Barrow we won't discuss) Gibbs knows LBs well, no one talks about Monte Coleman, Neal Olkawitz, but they won super bowls. It's funny to hear that LaVar wasn't considered a 3 down LB by GW but this kid is...we know he's better than Holdman already and he's got good mentors in Marshall and Washington...and if McCune and Clemons get into the mix, we should be all set at LB. Also we should never question GW, so McIntosh must be a winner if Williams wanted him[/quote]

Giving up those picks was just the cost of doing business. We didn't overpay guys, we paid fair value. The picks we gave up were an even trade on the draft picks value chart.

I think for some reason people think a 6th round pick actually has some value. The chances of unearthing a gem in the 6th round are about as good as the chances of unearthing a gem in the undrafted free agency period. When was the last time we hit on a 5th, 6th or 7th round pick? And now think of the guys we unearthed as undrafted free agents, Antonio Pierce comes to mind first. The 6th rounder is frigging nothing, so I don't understand the big deal.

All we really did was trade next year's 2nd to jump up and grab this guy. The trade was certainly fair.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=RedskinPete]The OL depth is going to be our down fall and not having a back up plan if Taylor is not able to play in 06! Getting A LB dosen't fill these needs. Didn't we learn any thing from Thomas and Jansen going down? People who don't learn from history are doom to repeat it!!!!![/quote]

I think Gibbs likes Mike Pucillo and Tyson Walker for depth. Hopefully we can add to it with our late rounders. But taking a safety or a backup OL at the 2nd round spot would have been irresponsible when we had a gaping hole in the starting lineup at LB.

You don't use a 2nd round pick on a safety because there is a SLIM chance that Sean Taylor will go to jail. And you don't use a 2nd rounder on a backup C/G, not when we have a hole in the STARTING lineup elsewhere, and especially when there aren't any available worthy of a 2nd rounder. I do hope we add to our OL depth, but I'm glad we didn't use a 2nd round pick on it.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

I feel that if JG and GW liked this guy than he will be a solid player. But I also hate the idea of giving up future drat picks!

If we had not given away our picks for this year than we would have not been in this suituation. Next year we will do the same thing and it will be a viscious circle. The therory of trading away future picks ever year and it never catches up to you is not supported by the fact that we have made the fewest amout of picks since 2000.

This was definately not the first time they pulled the trigger a little prematurely in my opinion. They did it with Cooley, who would have still been on the board (in my opinion-what other team wanted a natural H-back besides us?) when we would of picked. I was pissed by the move at the time but when Cooley turned out to be such a monster player, I'm glad we locked him up when we had the chance. Hopefully, McIntosh will provide me with similiar feelings in the future.

I also believe that we were the only team that would have picked Cambell at the spot we did. Basically, I feel that our coaches are great at selecting talent, and I decided not to second guess Gibbs anymore when Brunell had a good season last year - let's not kid ourselves into thinking that any of us know as much as our coaches, but I also feel that they don't have the balls to sit back and wait for a guy to fall to them. When they want a man they get him no matter what - which is why we also overpay in FA.

I guess McIntosh must have been the apple of thier eyes.

OK, you guys should feel free to boo me for that last line.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=mooby]are they serious? we gave up our second rounder this year, and a second rounder and a sixth rounder next year? Now, Macintosh might turn out to be a good player, but that's a lot to give up to move up 18 spots in the second round this year.[/quote]

Its pretty much an even trade according to the draft value chart. The future premium on draft picks is one round. We traded 53 (370pts) + 85 (the present value of our 2007 2nd rounder) (165pts) + 189 (16.8pts) for a total of 551.8 points. The pick we traded for, 35, is worth 550 points.

Id hardly call 1.8 points an unacceptable premium. (Consider for comparison that the last non-compensatory pick of the draft is worth 3 points).

[URL="http://www.nfldraftblitz.com/pick_value_chart.htm"]http://www.nfldraftblitz.com/pick_value_chart.htm[/URL]

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=SKINSnCANES]why do people not understand how moving up in the draft works. We didtn give up two first round picks for Campbell, and we didnt give up two 2nd round picks for Rocky. We gave up a 2nd round pick next year to essentially move up a round this year, or up a great number of picks. We still got a 2nd round pick.

It is a high pick to give up, I agree. But if its what we need to win it all this year, or go farther in the playoffs then its worth it. If hes a bust, and we dotn do well this year, then we'll wish we had it. But id rather put my self in a better position to win this year when we're so close[/quote]

Yes, we did.

The fact of the matter is that before we selected Rocky we had 2 - 2nd round picks and a 6th round pick. After we selected him we had none of those picks, therefore, logic dictates that that is the price we paid for him.

By your reasoning, if we waited and selected him with the 53rd pick than we would have got him for free. No, we would have paid a 2nd round pick for him.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Lot of hate for this deal. I don't mind it. First, everyone needs to stop saying we gave up 3 picks to get him. We didn't. We gave up 2 picks.

We gave up #53, but got #35. So those picks are negated. We gave up next year's second (which has the same value as a third rounder this year) and a 6th rounder. I'm not bothered by that at all. 6th rounders are worth jack squat first off. Secondly, we're positioned to make a run this year. It's better to make sure we get the guy we loved now rather than next year.

Everything I've heard on McIntosh says that he's rock solid, and he fills the final hole in our roster. Gibbs and company have done well with first-day draft picks. Sean Taylor, Chris Cooley, Carlos Rogers, all good picks. Jury's out on Campbell still. He's going to fill the only need we have (except maybe punter). And I think Gregg Williams knows how to pick his LBs.

I'm not jumping up and down thinking we got a steal. But I'm not bothered by it by any means. After all, he might be the final piece of the puzzle on D.[/QUOTE]


IN GW I TRUST...!!!!!

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[QUOTE=81forHOF]Yes, we did.

The fact of the matter is that before we selected Rocky we had 2 - 2nd round picks and a 6th round pick. After we selected him we had none of those picks, therefore, logic dictates that that is the price we paid for him.

By your reasoning, if we waited and selected him with the 53rd pick than we would have got him for free. No, we would have paid a 2nd round pick for him.[/QUOTE]

But after trading the #53 pick, we still had a 2nd round pick. We lost two picks for trading up to the #35 spot -- the second rounder next year, and the middle 6th rounder this year.

Your reasoning makes it sound as if we lost the #53 pick and got nothing in return. This is not the case.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Beemnseven]But after trading the #53 pick, we still had a 2nd round pick. We lost two picks for trading up to the #35 spot -- the second rounder next year, and the middle 6th rounder this year.

Your reasoning makes it sound as if we lost the #53 pick and got nothing in return. This is not the case.[/quote]

No, it doesn't. We got Rocky McIntosh in return.

You guys are explaining what it took to move up, I'm explaining what we paid for McIntosh.

If we would have picked a player at #53 we would have paid a 2nd round pick for that player! Nothing in this world is for free.

We owned 3 less draft picks after we selected RM than we did before we selected him. It is that simple.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

Look, I don't know anything about Rocky McIntosh and couldn't pick him out of a line up (given that he is from "The U", that could actually be important later).

But, Gibbs valued him as being worth the 35th pick in the draft and all the published reports I've seen indicate that is fair. There is also no question that the team viewed OLB depth as their top priority in this draft.

So, the question is, Is the 35th pick this year worth this year's 53rd and 189th along with a second round pick next year (probably the 64th)?

The formula used to put a value on draft picks that is used by the Skins probably means that a second round pick next year is worth a 5th round pick this year. In other words, using that valuation, the question becomes, is pick 35 worth #53+189+160?

If you accept the valuation method the Skins appear to be using, it was not a case of overpaying to move up 18 spots and get the guy we wanted. The real cost we're paying is a year away. If the Skins thought there was no one there who would help this year at #53, then it was a great deal.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[QUOTE=81forHOF]Yes, we did.

The fact of the matter is that before we selected Rocky we had 2 - 2nd round picks and a 6th round pick. After we selected him we had none of those picks, therefore, logic dictates that that is the price we paid for him.

By your reasoning, if we waited and selected him with the 53rd pick than we would have got him for free. No, we would have paid a 2nd round pick for him.[/QUOTE]

your logic is stupid. "after we selected him we had none of those picks"

well no shit...but we have him now. Thats how it works, after you pick a player in the draft, you no longer have that pick. We gave up ONE second round pick to get him, and its a 2nd for next year which is the equivalent to a third this year.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=SKINSnCANES]your logic is stupid. "after we selected him we had none of those picks"

well no shit...but we have him now. Thats how it works, after you pick a player in the draft, you no longer have that pick. We gave up ONE second round pick to get him, and its a 2nd for next year which is the equivalent to a third this year.[/quote]There, there 'Canes.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[QUOTE=EXoffender]There, there 'Canes.[/QUOTE]

heh, sorry. Im still pissed we didnt make a move for Harris. I would have been happy if we took him at 53 orignally because I thought Rocky would be gone by that pick.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

Check these kind words. Kudos Davy...

[url]http://nfldraftalmanac.com/index.php?c=39&a=504[/url]

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=81forHOF]No, it doesn't. We got Rocky McIntosh in return.

You guys are explaining what it took to move up, I'm explaining what we paid for McIntosh.

If we would have picked a player at #53 we would have paid a 2nd round pick for that player! Nothing in this world is for free.

We owned 3 less draft picks after we selected RM than we did before we selected him. It is that simple.[/quote]

Goofball, Rocky McIntosh IS our 2nd round pick.

We sacrificed next year's 2nd rounder and this year's 6th rounder to GET INTO POSITION to get him. That was the price we paid.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=EXoffender]Check these kind words. Kudos Davy...

[URL="http://nfldraftalmanac.com/index.php?c=39&a=504"]http://nfldraftalmanac.com/index.php?c=39&a=504[/URL][/quote]


it has him projected as a 5th round pick (?), but the writer says he'll be surprised if he falls out of the 2nd.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

I like the fact that Dale Lindsey spent some time with Rock and liked him.

Some of the scouts say that if not for the shoulder, knee and herniated disc problem he's had over the last 2 years, he could have easily been a 1st round pick.

My only concern with this guy is his ability to get off of blocks. Other than that he's a punishing tackler and has a high motor. He certainly has more
discipline than Lavar and is a great cover guy. He'll get platooned with Clemons and Holdman. Good pick-up IMO.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

I think you guys are getting into semantics as to Rocky's price. I don't see what all the fuss is about, we used 2 2nds and a 6th to get him. It could be a great move, or it could be a bad move. For now I'll give the staff the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=Schneed10]You think Rocky would have fallen to #53? What makes you say that? Why do you think he would have fallen that far? Did Mel Kiper have him falling that far? Did sportswriters think he'd fall that far? Based on what? Did you call around the league like Chris Mortensen and find out that nobody wanted McIntosh before #53?

This is my whole problem, That Guy. HOW DO YOU KNOW???

YOU DON'T. The attitude drives me nuts. You make blanket statements as if you know what the NFL GMs were thinking about Rocky McIntosh. You've done a lot of research, and that's great. But it's what the GMs are thinking that really matters.

Maybe he would have fallen. Maybe he wouldn't. We have no way of knowing. And no team who picked between 35 and 53 is going to come out and say "we wanted Rocky McIntosh" because then they'd just be pissing off the player they actually picked, making him think he was their backup plan.

Bottom line is Gibbs and Williams didn't want to chance it. They saw a run on LBs and they made sure to get their guy. Player value, schmayer value. Nobody knows if it was worth it. It's all speculation. We'll just have to see.

Chart-wise it was fair. If he's good, we got value. If he sucks, we didn't. We'll just have to wait and see.[/quote]

The Redskins FO believed that he'd be gone, or they wouldn't have made the trade. It's an educated guess that I would have a tendency to believe. They looked at the teams still ahead of them in draft order and estimated their likelyhood of taking a LB... Rocky and Hodge were the next in line to go.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=EEich]The Redskins FO believed that he'd be gone, or they wouldn't have made the trade. It's an educated guess that I would have a tendency to believe. They looked at the teams still ahead of them in draft order and estimated their likelyhood of taking a LB... Rocky and Hodge were the next in line to go.[/quote]

hodge didn't go till well into round 3.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

i think they wanted D'Quell or Rocky and they saw one go and got scared

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=mcalderone10]i think they wanted D'Quell or Rocky and they saw one go and got scared[/quote]

yeah, the jets called them and they decided not to waste time looking for a cheaper trade partner. gibb said they would have missed him if they waited too much longer. but it still seems like the skins just lock into one player and ignore everyone else. If he goes stud or can contribute immediately isn't not a bad call. if hodge or alston have success while he flounders (which is the less likely senario) it'll be disappointing though.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=That Guy]yeah, the jets called them and they decided not to waste time looking for a cheaper trade partner. gibb said they would have missed him if they waited too much longer. but it still seems like the skins just lock into one player and ignore everyone else.[/quote]

possible sign of lazyness just scout 2 players u think u can get if one is picked do anything to get the other guy

i would think Dsnyts has too much money to not have the highest paid scouting team in NFL history.

doesn't that sound like DsNyts

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

well, the good news is the talent level of the guys we got this year is WAY better than last year (where it seems we picked mainly on hype the 2nd day).

we had shots at better talent and passed on it, but we didn't get total bums this time around.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

well theres only so much you can do w/ limited picks

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=amorentz]Why do you think we wanted D'Qwell? There has been nothing to suggest that at ALL -- this is pure rumor.

McIntosh is bigger, significantly faster and is a natural WLB, which we needed. While D'Qwell has spent some time on the outside, he really excelled as an ILB which we already have in Marshall.

Have some faith in the front office that they didnt just randomly trade up not knowing if their target was there.[/quote]

Good point. D'Quell has excelled on the inside, which is probably where he'll play in Cleveland, whilc Mac...in a WLB. I think they got their man, no doubt.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=That Guy]yeah, the jets called them and they decided not to waste time looking for a cheaper trade partner. gibb said they would have missed him if they waited too much longer. but it still seems like the skins just lock into one player and ignore everyone else. If he goes stud or can contribute immediately isn't not a bad call. if hodge or alston have success while he flounders (which is the less likely senario) it'll be disappointing though.[/quote]The thing is, if a team drafts a player, they have to work to develop him and that takes time. We simply expect draftees to already be at a certain level when we bring him in. Other teams strategy is to throw rookies and late drat picks into to the fire and hope that they fare well. And that has obvious risks.

Re: Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh
 

[quote=EXoffender]The thing is, if a team drafts a player, they have to work to develop him and that takes time. We simply expect draftees to already be at a certain level when we bring him in. Other teams strategy is to throw rookies and late drat picks into to the fire and hope that they fare well. And that has obvious risks.[/quote]

speaking of which, the steelers seem to have the most luck throwing rookies in to start. big ben, heath miller, santonio holmes, etc etc.