Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277187]wasn't bin laden part of al quaeda that the united states armed to try and take out Afghanistan? i wonder who was president then?[/quote]
I had never heard that we gave arms to Al Quaeda.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

somewhere along the way, the united states has forgotten how to fight a war. in war, there will be death and injury. to those who deserve, and the undeserving. trying to keep the undeserving out of it, as much as possible, and basically destroying anything , or anyone that stands in our way. we are way too worried about offending, to fight effectively. we are also way to interested in ground fighting. if someone wants to pick a fight with us, lets show them why we are the only superpower. we should have bombed bin laden, or at least until he was handed over. that would have opened the worlds eyes. not this pussyfooting around we are doing in iraq right now

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[quote=firstdown;277334]I had never heard that we gave arms to Al Quaeda.[/quote]
back when russia rolled into afghanstan and basically got their asses handed to them

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277337]back when russia rolled into afghanstan and basically got their asses handed to them[/quote]

A little off topic, but one of the most shocking things I have ever seen. A video ran on the news in the early stages of the war. It shows two Afghans literally standing next to their camels in a mountaneous region in Afghanistan. Next scene two Russian Migs come over the mountains in the distance. The announcer states that each one costs Mother Russia 30m. Then he says we are supplying arms to the rebel forces. These two guys each shoulder a hand held "surface to air" missile launcher costing abolut $1000 each. they both lock up and fire. Bingo! 60m in Russian hardware are shot down for 2 g's. It was amazing

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277336]somewhere along the way, the united states has forgotten how to fight a war. in war, there will be death and injury. to those who deserve, and the undeserving. trying to keep the undeserving out of it, as much as possible, and basically destroying anything , or anyone that stands in our way. we are way too worried about offending, to fight effectively. we are also way to interested in ground fighting. if someone wants to pick a fight with us, lets show them why we are the only superpower. we should have bombed bin laden, or at least until he was handed over. that would have opened the worlds eyes. not this pussyfooting around we are doing in iraq right now[/quote]

real-time media happened, vietnam happened. things change.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

Dmec's correct though, if your fighting a war, fight it! if your worried about politcal correctness, go home. We afford our enemies many luxuries they do not give us, beheading's, torture, etc

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Hog1;277352]We afford our enemies many luxuries they do not give us, beheading's, [B]torture[/B], etc[/quote]

well, at least we don't behead them.

but in korea, we couldn't "just fight the war" unless we wanted to invade china (which, by the way, would be totally impossible and unwinnable). Our armed forces aren't as big as they used to be and we can't afford and are not capable of taking on all comers.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277336]somewhere along the way, the united states has forgotten how to fight a war. in war, there will be death and injury. to those who deserve, and the undeserving. trying to keep the undeserving out of it, as much as possible, and basically destroying anything , or anyone that stands in our way. we are way too worried about offending, to fight effectively. we are also way to interested in ground fighting. if someone wants to pick a fight with us, lets show them why we are the only superpower. we should have bombed bin laden, or at least until he was handed over. that would have opened the worlds eyes. not this pussyfooting around we are doing in iraq right now[/quote]
Its not that we do not know how to fight a war look at how fast we moved in to Iraq and look at the first Iraq war. The problem is that they are not an army we are fighting and they only attack from a distance while hiding behind women and children. Everytime we have engaged them in a battle we have distroyed them and thats why they hide among the people of Iraq. I agree with you that we take to many precautions but its people like John Kerry and his buddies in comgress that accuse our men of terrorizing women and children which makes it hard. That is coming from people who are suppose to support our troops and not degrade them.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

killing and raping innocent people just for the sake of doing it will never be justified, in my book. but if civilians get killed along the way, then so be it. kerry fought for this great country. so if anyone has the right to talk about what happened while he was there, it should be him

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Daseal;276702]Is anyone looking at this from their point of view? In the 9/11 attacks we lose 2,819 people ([URL="http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/1year/numbers.htm)"]New York Magazine[/URL]. In Iraq, over the course of this war they've lost between 56,023 and 61,736 civilians. I'm sorry if this sounds brash, but we've been damn lucky that a) 9/11 only killed 2,819 people, and that attacks like that don't happen on a more regular basis. 9/11 happens in these countries every couple months, and often we're involved in some way. I don't think it takes rocket science to see why these people hate us. Most of them were living their lives, and yes Saddam wasn't a great ruler by any stretch, but most families weren't losing children, mothers, and fathers from a bomb that goes off course or the escalated violence in the area, this is why they hate us. Their towns are in ruins, many of their family members are dead, and we are directly responsible.

How would you guys support it if, lets say... France, decided that George W. Bush was a dictator and not fit to run the country. The first thing they do is bomb the shit out of our infrastructure. Goodbye power grid, goodbye bridges, cut the fiber-optic backbones going into the country (much like we did in Iraq), kill the telephone lines. Then bomb military outposts. You'd be enraged, a violation of our 'civil rights'. I guess at some point, we need to stop forcing our ways on others. We're the world's Jehovah's witnesses, going door to door, uninvited, and pushing our agenda on someone else.

Then people bitch about car bombs, etc. It's how you win when you're undermanned. They can't just gear up and fight us, they'd get crushed. If we want to go rolling into war, especially with groups instead of sovereign states, we need to expect guerrilla warfare. It's the only effective means for people to fight back, and we can't start a war and expect everyone to drop their weapons and convert to us.

This isn't meant to offend anyone, I'm just asking you to step back from being an American, and put yourself in someone else's shoes. 9/11 was a tragedy, but the loss of human life wasn't near what many countries see on a regular basis. We've been extremely lucky with thwarting such attacks, and in my opinion, pissing more people off isn't the best way to stop them. Many experts say that the Iraq war has done little but breed more terrorists.[/quote]

Saddam did kill hundreds of thousands of people if i'm not mistaken. But yes, the country was more "stable" under his rule. We are in a no-win situation now, regardless if we stay or leave.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

I dont see how we can win this war, if it even is a war, since more people are hating the US and creating more terrorists. This just seems like it's going to be the next vietnam but now it seems like we are fighting an entire ethnic group

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277382]killing and raping innocent people just for the sake of doing it will never be justified, in my book. but if civilians get killed along the way, then so be it. kerry fought for this great country. so if anyone has the right to talk about what happened while he was there, it should be him[/quote]
I did not know that he was fighting in Iraq? Thats what he sad about our troops there.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

i thought you were talking about vietnam. i didnt hear him say anything bad about our boys in iraq. link?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;277408]i thought you were talking about vietnam. i didnt hear him say anything bad about our boys in iraq. link?[/QUOTE]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXaoavV1d4s]YouTube - John Kerry calls American troops terrorists[/url]

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=That Guy;277362]well, at least we don't behead them.

but in korea, we couldn't "just fight the war" unless we wanted to invade china (which, by the way, would be totally impossible and unwinnable). Our armed forces aren't as big as they used to be and we can't afford and are not capable of taking on all comers.[/quote]

Maybe, I was misunderstood. I meant that we are way civil in the process of war. maybe to civil. To my knowledge, we don't torture anybody. And a handful of pics taken of prisoners in the buff is not torture

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277408]i thought you were talking about vietnam. i didnt hear him say anything bad about our boys in iraq. link?[/quote]
OK demk25 you seem pretty much up on things how did you miss that one it was even covered on National News and you favorite Fox News?

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i agree with what he said, just not the way he said it. sorry if i come off as a know it all about my beliefs, but there was only one other person at work i could talk politics to, and they switched Dept's. i think i missed my calling, because i definitely would have been a political science major.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277469]i agree with what he said, just not the way he said it. sorry if i come off as a know it all about my beliefs, but there was only one other person at work i could talk politics to, and they switched Dept's. i think i missed my calling, because i definitely would have been a political science major.[/quote]
I'll let your first sentence speak for its self.

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I'm glad eveyone's still getting along after ten pages of this:)

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Yea, this one just keeps going. Maybe Shane will come back and spice things up. If you were not here back when Shane was a member he was as about as far left as you could go and if you did not agree with him he had a few select words. He has been gone for some time now I guess he is out hugging trees.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;277481]Yea, this one just keeps going. Maybe Shane will come back and spice things up. If you were not here back when Shane was a member he was as about as far left as you could go and if you did not agree with him he had a few select words. He has been gone for some time now I guess he is out hugging trees.[/QUOTE]

Yeah he was crazy hippie liberal. Not even close to reasonable and moderate. He was basically responsible for the downfall of the political forum all together. It was so frustrating posting with him. ugh.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=FRPLG;277483]Yeah he was crazy hippie liberal. Not even close to reasonable and moderate. He was basically responsible for the downfall of the political forum all together. It was so frustrating posting with him. ugh.[/quote]
Not basically, he was the reason they closed the forum.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=firstdown;277477]I'll let your first sentence speak for its self.[/quote]
so you don't think the Iraqi people should be policing themselves?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;277188]somalia. he tried to straighten out a mess that was very similar to iraq. he knew that those people didnt want the help. they were bred to kill. we packed up and left. probably the best solution for iraq, too[/QUOTE]

Actually didn't really try to straighten out the mess, he created it. Bush I went into Somalia and fighting broke out between Somali militias and US troops during the Clinton administration. He screwed that one up royally. I did my college senior honors thesis on the U.S. intervention in Somalia (before Black Hawk Down came out) and got to talk to some interesting military and political officials. When I spoke with Clinton's National Security Advisor Anthony Lake (name-drop), even he admitted they screwed up big time. When Clinton left office and gave an "exit interiew" to Dan Rather, he said his biggest mistake was his handling of the intervention in Somalia.

Even though I think Clinton was a pretty good President (who also happened to be lucky enough to come into office when the economy was about to take off), he was pretty awful when it came to foreign policy. Clinton was a "domestic President" who simply didn't know what he was doing when it came to international relations.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;277524]Even though I think Clinton was a pretty good President (who also happened to be lucky enough to come into office when the economy was about to take off), he was pretty awful when it came to foreign policy. Clinton was a "domestic President" who simply didn't know what he was doing when it came to international relations.[/QUOTE]

That was the core of his platform. That while Bush 1 had been so focused on foreign affairs he had forgotten about America. And Clinton would worry about our own backyard

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;277528]That was the core of his platform. That while Bush 1 had been so focused on foreign affairs he had forgotten about America. And Clinton would worry about our own backyard[/QUOTE]

Yeah and he did a pretty good job, but in doing so he screwed up interventions like Somalia.

Also, I'd like to echo the sentiments that it's so nice to be able to discuss "deep thoughts" with guys like you without getting into pissing matches or heated arguments.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

Regarding Somalia, the republican majority in congress [URL="http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2007/01/republicans-and-congress-war-powers.html"]weren't exactly backing Clinton[/URL].

Also, lets not forget:

1. How Clinton along with a coalition of European nations intervened in Kosovo to stop the slaughter of muslins.

2. Clinton's attempt at middle east peace when he regularly invited Palestinians and Israelis to Camp David. With the help of Clinton Yasser Arafat, Shimon Peres, Yitzhak Rabin shared 1/3 of the Noble Peace Prize.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=saden1;277536]Regarding Somalia, the republican majority in congress [URL="http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2007/01/republicans-and-congress-war-powers.html"]weren't exactly backing Clinton[/URL].

Also, lets not forget:

1. How Clinton along with a coalition of European nations intervened in Kosovo to stop the slaughter of muslins.

2. Clinton's attempt at middle east peace when he regularly invited Palestinians and Israelis to Camp David. With the help of Clinton Yasser Arafat, Shimon Peres, Yitzhak Rabin shared 1/3 of the Noble Peace Prize.[/QUOTE]

With regard to Somalia, the Republicans didn't support him because the mission was undefined, the strategy was poor, and the execution was even worse.

As for Kosovo, Clinton did a pretty good job. But, interestingly he did it without UN approval (because the Russians and Chinese would have vetoed the matter) and because he claimed that the conflict with humanitarian dimensions and one that could spread (aka it was both a war or preemption and a humanitarian one).

Clinton's shining moment in foreign affairs was definately with Israel and Arafat. He did a good job and I can't knock him for it.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Hog1;277428]Maybe, I was misunderstood. I meant that we are way civil in the process of war. maybe to civil. To my knowledge, we don't torture anybody. And a handful of pics taken of prisoners in the buff is not torture[/quote]

no, we don't toture, but we do contract torture out to countries like pakistan and send people there for "questioning".

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[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;277572]because the mission was undefined, the strategy was poor, and the execution was even worse.quote]
this sounds like the exact events going on in iraq right now

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;277572]With regard to Somalia, the Republicans didn't support him because the mission was undefined, the strategy was poor, and the execution was even worse.

As for Kosovo, Clinton did a pretty good job. But, interestingly he did it without UN approval (because the Russians and Chinese would have vetoed the matter) and because he claimed that the conflict with humanitarian dimensions and one that could spread (aka it was both a war or preemption and a humanitarian one).

Clinton's shining moment in foreign affairs was definately with Israel and Arafat. He did a good job and I can't knock him for it.[/QUOTE]

It was interesting how no mention is ever made of how Kosovo was enacted without UN approval. I think the UN has major issues anyway, but that's a story for another day

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[quote=TAFKAS;277590]It was interesting how no mention is ever made of how Kosovo was enacted without UN approval. I think the UN has major issues anyway, but that's a story for another day[/quote]

It's funny I've heard some say Clinton would make a good candidate for UN Secretary. Very unlikely though.

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[quote=dmek25;277520]so you don't think the Iraqi people should be policing themselves?[/quote]
Yes they should but if it is a person or group we think is attacking our troops we have to be involved so we do the best in catching the person or group. From what I have seen we are involving them more and more in our policing the areas and in most of Iraq they have total control of the cities. You have to re member that 80% of Iraq is living in peace and its the 20% in and around Bagdad which is causing all of the problems. That 80% living in peace where kids are going to school (some for the first time) running water, electricity, and living mostly normal lives is the 80% totaly irnored by our media. I'm not saying that the bombings should not be reported but why ignore all of the positive thing happening in Iraq and why not give some positives reports on how the troops are doing in other areas? Its like when the 1/4 state of the economy comes out and they have to report the good news they always seem to add a but and then find something negative to add to the story. It happens every time and there is always going to be something negative in the economy no matter how good things are going. The other week on one of the major news channels they had to report that unemployment was at a low for so many years and I knew that they could not just report that and sure enough they had to add something negative.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;277652]Yes they should but if it is a person or group we think is attacking our troops we have to be involved so we do the best in catching the person or group. From what I have seen we are involving them more and more in our policing the areas and in most of Iraq they have total control of the cities. You have to re member that 80% of Iraq is living in peace and its the 20% in and around Bagdad which is causing all of the problems. That 80% living in peace where kids are going to school (some for the first time) running water, electricity, and living mostly normal lives is the 80% totaly irnored by our media. I'm not saying that the bombings should not be reported but why ignore all of the positive thing happening in Iraq and why not give some positives reports on how the troops are doing in other areas? Its like when the 1/4 state of the economy comes out and they have to report the good news they always seem to add a but and then find something negative to add to the story. It happens every time and there is always going to be something negative in the economy no matter how good things are going. The other week on one of the major news channels they had to report that unemployment was at a low for so many years and I knew that they could not just report that and sure enough they had to add something negative.[/QUOTE]

Where are you getting this information? Please provide the sources, because this is completely contrary to what everyone in any position of knowledge is saying about the situation. Is your argument that our project in Iraq is succeeding? And what kids are going to school for the first time? Education enrollment in Iraq was close to 100 percent prior to the invasion. It is now at 30 percent. Maybe I have been indoctrinated by the media, so point me in the direction of what I should be consulting and we will take it from there.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=djnemo65;277666]Where are you getting this information? Please provide the sources, because this is completely contrary to what everyone in any position of knowledge is saying about the situation. Is your argument that our project in Iraq is succeeding? And what kids are going to school for the first time? It infuriates me to hear you say that. Education enrollment in Iraq was near 100 percent prior to the invasion. It is now at 30 percent. Maybe I have been indoctrinated by the media, so point me in the direction of what I should be consulting and we will take it from there.[/quote]
Schools where not at 100 prior to the invasion they had droped 53% by the 90's due to the neglect from Sadam. I don't have time to look up the other info right now but I will. So don't get infuriated with me I just think any positives are totaly ignored by our main media. Just listen to someone who has been over there. I know the news only has the one's who have problems with us over there and ignores the others.
[URL="http://www.usaid.gov/press/factsheets/2003/fs030818.html"]USAID Fact Sheet: Rehabilitating Iraq's Basic Education System[/URL]

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=djnemo65;277666]Where are you getting this information? Please provide the sources, because this is completely contrary to what everyone in any position of knowledge is saying about the situation. Is your argument that our project in Iraq is succeeding? And what kids are going to school for the first time? It infuriates me to hear you say that. Education enrollment in Iraq was near 100 percent prior to the invasion. It is now at 30 percent. Maybe I have been indoctrinated by the media, so point me in the direction of what I should be consulting and we will take it from there.[/quote]

What really irks me about this Administration and sometimes the media, depending on who you listen to, is this notion that Iraq is somehow better off now that Sadaam is out of the picture and the good old [I]U. S. of A[/I]. is occupying the territory.

If the people of Iraq aren't hungry for democracy then we're spinning our wheels. I fully understand our motivation for the invasion, but to suppose we can rebuild that country when so many of their elected officials are beholden to different religious groups and groups within groups has really tied our hands.

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[quote=12thMan;277672]What really irks me about this Administration and sometimes the media, depending on who you listen to, is this notion that Iraq is somehow better off now that Sadaam is out of the picture and the good old [I]U. S. of A[/I]. is occupying the territory.

If the people of Iraq aren't hungry for democracy then we're spinning our wheels. I fully understand our motivation for the invasion, but to suppose we can rebuild that country when so many of their elected officials are beholden to different religious groups and groups within groups has really tied our hands.[/quote]
My point is that we have not had a clear picture of the situation in Iraq as we only hear of the bad and they only show pictures of small groups that hate us. I call that selective media which there is no way anyone can deny that is what they have shown. You just proved my point as you said how the schools where running so good before we went in and now are way down when just the opposite is happening. How do we know if they are hungry for democracy? We don't because of the select media we receive is just showing one side of the story. I'm not saying all is good and rossy I'm just asking for the whole story so I or we can decide the truth.

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As long as Americans keep referring to other nations and other people as "them", as in "its either them or us" ; and, as long as other nations continue to refer to Americans as "them"...the problems will never get resolved. The only solution to the problem is a spiritual one which no one wants to look at 'cause it isn't sexy or testosterone laden. Most of the great minds have always known that we are all one. As soon as that is considered, problems will begin to dissipate and war will not be necessary. Until then, keep on killing.

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[QUOTE=12thMan;277672]What really irks me about this Administration and sometimes the media, depending on who you listen to, is this notion that Iraq is somehow better off now that Sadaam is out of the picture and the good old [I]U. S. of A[/I]. is occupying the territory.[/QUOTE]

I think it's definately a close call. We've blundered our way through the past 3 years, but Saddam was a pretty bad dude.

I'm not talking about you 12thman, but I don't understand how people called for us to get involved in Somalia, Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, and now Sudan because of humanitarian concerns, but totally ignore what Saddam Hussein did to his people. [I]Intentionally[/I] killing 300,000+ civilians in a country the size of Iraq is just about as bad as it gets.

Moreover, I don't really understand how people can say that we shouldn't try to force democracy down people's throats and we should mind our own business, and simultaneously criticize the U.S. government for supporting other dictators. The U.S. government might be hypocritical insofar as it supports dictatorships yet talks about spreading democracy, but that doesn't mean we have to be hypocritical too.

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[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;277694]I think it's definately a close call. We've blundered our way through the past 3 years, but Saddam was a pretty bad dude.

I don't understand how people called for us to get involved in Somalia, Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, and now Sudan because of humanitarian concerns, but totally ignore what Saddam Hussein did to his people. [I]Intentionally[/I] killing 300,000+ civilians in a country the size of Iraq is just about as bad as it gets.[/quote]
Well, lets also not forget the efforts to remove him and over-take the country has led to the death of more than 655,000 people. I think we should have gone in during the Gulf War... but that's neither here nor there.

While Sadaam was a terrible tyrant... I'm not sure the country is in the "better". According to the [URL="http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm"]Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls and Casualty Statistics for Wars, Dictatorships and Genocides[/URL] there is alot of bad shit going on, and I think the United States needs to look long and hard at what our obligation necessarily is.

Where one see's a crime of omission, another see's an oppurtunity to avoid future conflict (ie middle east turmoil). We haven't seen the worst of what's going on yet... and we need to really really think about the implications of our actions.

Right now I'm sure attacking Iran is a wrong move. Theres way to much at stake.