Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=GTripp0012;295751]Uh, no? A guy who has a 1st round pick at QB behind him on the depth chart will get replaced whenever the team feels the young gun is ready. Brunell had basically been keeping the seat warm for two years.

Gibbs knew that he'd be costing us some wins when he went to Campbell, but in a lost season, the decision was an easy one. Giving up merely your best chance to win for a much better chance to win in future seasons is a no brainer. Gibbs didn't just fall off the turnip truck, he had a plan with his QBs all along and he stuck to it.[/quote]

3-6 w/ Brunell. 2-5 w/ JC. Is the difference really that big?

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

Plus we need to consider how valuable having Collins around really is. He's been in this offense for what, 7-8 years now? He's basically like having a player/coach out there. That's a great resource for Campbell not only in practice but in games to bounce things off of.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Mattyk72;295824]Plus we need to consider how valuable having Collins around really is. He's been in this offense for what, 7-8 years now? He's basically like having a player/coach out there. That's a great resource for Campbell not only in practice but in games to bounce things off of.[/quote]

I made this point earlier in the thread, but I got a response that said "coaches coach and players play, Saunders should be teaching the QBs."

Which of course is utterly ridiculous.

Saunders doesn't have time to turn Campbell into the stud we need him to be, coordinate the other 10 players on the field, study film of defenses, call the plays and be the chief game-planner, AND be there for a Tim Rattay every step of the way. And Bill Lazor should be focusing on [U]Campbell's[/U] fundamentals, his reads, teaching him to break down film, and staying late after practice working on mechanics, not a Tim Rattay's.

Vet QBs on the sidelines are very helpful. Coaches don't have time for every little thing, especially for the backup QBs. And unlike coaches, vet QBs understand what it's like to have to make the reads under pressure and react quickly. Coaches can instruct you all they want, but they can't relate as well as a veteran player to what it actually feels like to be out there.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

I definately agree that Collins has value insofar as he knows Saunders' system inside and out, but I'd also like to see a #3 who is a developmental project or who can step up into the #2 role when Brunell is done. Collins is neither and so I wouldn't be opposed to getting Rattay.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;295846]I definately agree that Collins has value insofar as he knows Saunders' system inside and out, but I'd also like to see a #3 who is a developmental project or who can step up into the #2 role when Brunell is done. Collins is neither and so I wouldn't be opposed to getting Rattay.[/quote]

What if it meant you had to cut Renaldo Wynn to make it work cap-wise?

Because that's what it probably means.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;295848]What if it meant you had to cut Renaldo Wynn to make it work cap-wise?

Because that's what it probably means.[/QUOTE]

Then I'd be opposed to it. Honestly, Schneed, I think the only disagreement between the two of us is about Rattay's salary. I think Collins has value and I'd like to keep him. [I]But[/I], I'd also like to add a future #2 in anticipation of Brunell's retirement. I like Rattay and think he could be a good #2, but my support of signing Rattay is conditioned on us getting him at a reasonable cost.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;295849]Then I'd be opposed to it. Honestly, Schneed, I think the only disagreement between the two of us is about Rattay's salary. I think Collins has value and I'd like to keep him. [I]But[/I], I'd also like to add a future #2 in anticipation of Brunell's retirement. I like Rattay and think he could be a good #2, but my support of signing Rattay is conditioned on us getting him at a reasonable cost.[/quote]

Yeah I agree you and I are closer on this issue. If Rattay comes at vet minimum, then I can see the logic in getting him here now. It still wouldn't be my preference, because I'd prefer Collins were still around 2 more years. But I could see the logic.

But I see no reason to believe Rattay would take vet minimum when Carr and Harrington are getting $3.0 million a year.

My main beef is with GTripp throughout this thread, who has essentially dismissed the value that a vet QB brings in the form of tutelage, failed to understand that coaches don't have unlimited time to tutor both Campbell and a guy like Rattay effectively, and pish-poshed the judgment of Al Saunders (Collins' coach for 5 years running or whatever it is) regarding Collins' effectiveness.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;295844]I made this point earlier in the thread, but I got a response that said "coaches coach and players play, Saunders should be teaching the QBs."

Which of course is utterly ridiculous.

Saunders doesn't have time to turn Campbell into the stud we need him to be, coordinate the other 10 players on the field, study film of defenses, call the plays and be the chief game-planner, AND be there for a Tim Rattay every step of the way. And Bill Lazor should be focusing on [U]Campbell's[/U] fundamentals, his reads, teaching him to break down film, and staying late after practice working on mechanics, not a Tim Rattay's.

Vet QBs on the sidelines are very helpful. Coaches don't have time for every little thing, especially for the backup QBs. And unlike coaches, vet QBs understand what it's like to have to make the reads under pressure and react quickly. Coaches can instruct you all they want, but they can't relate as well as a veteran player to what it actually feels like to be out there.[/quote]

I agree 110%.

Especially during games considering Saunders is up in the booth.

Having Collins around gives Campbell AND Saunders another pair of eyes.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

is this what it has come to? almost 130 posts about 2 qbacks, that if you added together wouldn't equal 1 good quarterback. this has to be right up there with the most ridiculous threads of all time. Collins at least knows the offense. Rattay sucks, plain and simple. cannot play in this league. hopefully Collins will never set foot on the field as a Washington redskin

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=dmek25;295899]is this what it has come to? almost 130 posts about 2 qbacks, that if you added together wouldn't equal 1 good quarterback. this has to be right up there with the most ridiculous threads of all time. Collins at least knows the offense. Rattay sucks, plain and simple. cannot play in this league. hopefully Collins will never set foot on the field as a Washington redskin[/quote]

Well put!

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;295899]is this what it has come to? almost 130 posts about 2 qbacks, that if you added together wouldn't equal 1 good quarterback. this has to be right up there with the most ridiculous threads of all time. [/QUOTE]

It's the offseason dude. And it's a [I]long[/I] 18 days until the draft.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

I hope Campbell throws the ball better that he did at the Nats game Sat night. His buggywhip delivery produced a high & wide throw as the ceremonial opening pitch.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;295859]Yeah I agree you and I are closer on this issue. If Rattay comes at vet minimum, then I can see the logic in getting him here now. It still wouldn't be my preference, because I'd prefer Collins were still around 2 more years. But I could see the logic.

But I see no reason to believe Rattay would take vet minimum when Carr and Harrington are getting $3.0 million a year.

My main beef is with GTripp throughout this thread, who has essentially dismissed the value that a vet QB brings in the form of tutelage, failed to understand that coaches don't have unlimited time to tutor both Campbell and a guy like Rattay effectively, and pish-poshed the judgment of Al Saunders (Collins' coach for 5 years running or whatever it is) regarding Collins' effectiveness.[/quote]Hey, maybe I am underestimating the amount of time Saunders' has to instruct his players. But Saunders can always hire more coaches if he needs to. I was under the impression that we had too many coaches already...and that if anything we need to get rid of some of the coaches.

But, hey, apparently we need to keep Todd Collins on board so we can whittle the coaching staff down and still have enough coaching to be going around.

C'mon, either we have too many coaches or not enough. If Collins' only role around here is going to be as an instructor, take his 1 million off the team salary cap and free up his roster spot and make him Lazor's assistant.

I think you are underestimating the competency of most NFL quarterbacks. I'm sure there's a handful of guys in the league who may either struggle to learn the playbook or struggle to understand the philosophies behind the plays, but I think [U][B]most[/B][/U] professional quarterbacks are smart enough to learn it on their own. If they are having an issue, they can go to their position coach and clear things up. Tim Rattay and Jason Campbell won't need to go over to Todd Collins' house after school for playbook tutoring, but it sounds like that's what you are trying to say here.

And continuing to stand by the point that Collins has a future because Saunders has coached him for awhile is assinine at best. We have NO idea what Saunders thinks of Collins as a player outside of the comfort level to play him in a pinch. I'm not pish-poshing his judgement because I'm not the one trying to guess what his judgement is.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;295823]3-6 w/ Brunell. 2-5 w/ JC. Is the difference really that big?[/quote]Well, as I stated before, not really.

Lets say we kept Brunell in there and beat Philadelphia and Tampa Bay. Well, we are still only 7-9, miss the playoffs anyway, and Campbell still has no playing experience.

Basically I'm just defending Gibbs' decision for 1) Waiting as long as he did to see if the defense got turned around, and 2) Making the switch when he did.

I'm just pointing out that we would have won some more games (whoop-de-do) had we kept Brunell in, not saying it was a bad decision to pull him when we did.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=offiss;295787]I have to diagree with that, the sooner we get a legitamate backup in here the sooner he can start learning the system and the players around him, unless someone believes that Campbell can lead us to a SB this season [because we know Brunell can't] then it's senseless to keep him around this season, we have to prepare for the future not worry about winning 1 or 2 extra games if Campbell goes down, because with Brunell those 1 or 2 games will result in a lesser draft pick not a playoff berth.[/quote]Well, if God came to me and guarenteed Jason Campbell's knees immunity vs. a pass rush, then I could really care less what happens to Brunell.

Until then, we need a competant backup.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=GTripp0012;296089]Well, as I stated before, not really.

Lets say we kept Brunell in there and beat Philadelphia and Tampa Bay. Well, we are still only 7-9, miss the playoffs anyway, and Campbell still has no playing experience.

Basically I'm just defending Gibbs' decision for 1) Waiting as long as he did to see if the defense got turned around, and 2) Making the switch when he did.

I'm just pointing out that we would have won some more games (whoop-de-do) had we kept Brunell in, not saying it was a bad decision to pull him when we did.[/quote]

Our record would still be the same w/ or w/out Brunell. JC played well against TB.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=irish;295923]I hope Campbell throws the ball better that he did at the Nats game Sat night. His buggywhip delivery produced a high & wide throw as the ceremonial opening pitch.[/quote]

Damn. We have some picky ass fans here. He's paid to throw a football. Not a damn baseball. Geez!

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;296174]Our record would still be the same w/ or w/out Brunell. JC played well against TB.[/quote]There's no way to be certain, but it seems like we were a few key completions away from winning both of those.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=pdid5000;295575]Almost anyone is better then Collins. I say go for it, Rattay would be a solid #2 and an uprgade even above Brunell.[/quote]

I'm all for sign Rattay and cutting Collins and especially Brunell. I live in fear that Gibbs will put Brunell back on the field, which would immediately cause me to turn off the game, even in the playoffs. I'm never going to watch that guy take another snap.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;296220]I'm all for sign Rattay and cutting Collins and especially Brunell. I live in fear that Gibbs will put Brunell back on the field, which would immediately cause me to turn off the game, even in the playoffs. I'm never going to watch that guy take another snap.[/quote]

So you'd rather watch a journeyman like Rattay who would be in his first season in this offense which takes a full year to learn?

Makes sense.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

I agree with some of my Skin Brethren, Rattay in the burgundy and gold wold suit me just fine. He also has the arm to come in just in case JC falters for some reason. Brunell personally cost us a nice 3 year playoff run with his weak ass arm. In '05 he neutered our run when his arm went limp going into the playoffs. Collins is in the same boat. Rattay would come on fine with learning the offense in my opinion. JC did fine with it last season, why can't Rattay?

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Mattyk72;296244]So you'd rather watch a journeyman like Rattay who would be in his first season in this offense which takes a full year to learn?

Makes sense.[/quote]Matty, I think most offenses take a year to completely learn. I understand your reservations.

Truth is though, most QBs can play just fine in a new system right away. Sure, they may say they aren't completely comfortable with the offense yet...because complete comfort takes time to achieve.

A good, veteran QB who is not entirely comfortable will still play well. If he didn't, he wouldn't be a good QB. Rattay is in the prime years of his career, and thats the whole point here. Minnesota, Oakland, Atlanta, Carolina, maybe even Buffalo would be instantly better if they signed Rattay and played him.

At the end of last year, he was money in Tampa Bay. I don't blame Tampa Bay for going with Garcia, another good QB, but it just means that someone is going to end up with a pretty good QB in the prime of his career without having to pay market value for him.

Why shouldn't we be the ones to benefit from this deficiency?

As far as comparing a potential contract to the one that Carr/Harrington got, I think thats a bad comparison. Carr and Harrington both had a market for their services, despite consistent below average play. Rattay has been consistently above league average for many years now, is still getting better, and has no market.

Someone is going to end up with quite a steal, and I started the thread to present the case for it being us. We don't need him as bad as some teams do, but other teams aren't my concern.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

In fact, under my original proposal, he'd be the third stringer in his first year here. So he probably wouldn't see the field.

It's not like we'd have to "groom" him. He's 29 and in the prime of his career.

It's just good value. That's all. We already have two of the leagues 32 best QBs on our team, and Rattay would be the third. Doesn't do us a whole lot of good for next year, but one thing it DOES do is keep another good QB out of the hands of one of our opponents.

Might be worth it to ensure we play the Tavaris Jackson led Vikings, and not the Tim Rattay led ones.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=GTripp0012;296255]In fact, under my original proposal, he'd be the third stringer in his first year here. So he probably wouldn't see the field.

It's not like we'd have to "groom" him. He's 29 and in the prime of his career.

It's just good value. That's all. We already have two of the leagues 32 best QBs on our team, and Rattay would be the third. Doesn't do us a whole lot of good for next year, but one thing it DOES do is keep another good QB out of the hands of one of our opponents.

Might be worth it to ensure we play the Tavaris Jackson led Vikings, and not the Tim Rattay led ones.[/quote]

If you feel he is this good and for the moment I'll go along with your assessment, then wouldn't it stand to reason that he thinks he's even better. What would make him want to sign on as a 3rd string QB? Why wouldn't he wait until the end of pre-season in hopes of catching on with a team who's starting QB went down with injury?

I guess you could wish he were on our team at minimal salary cap expense but the reality is that if he's as good as you believe then he would be a fool to sign with us. If he's not as good as you believe then we would be fools to sign him.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;296257]If you feel he is this good and for the moment I'll go along with your assessment, then wouldn't it stand to reason that he thinks he's even better. What would make him want to sign on as a 3rd string QB? Why wouldn't he wait until the end of pre-season in hopes of catching on with a team who's starting QB went down with injury?

I guess you could wish he were on our team at minimal salary cap expense but the reality is that if he's as good as you believe then he would be a fool to sign with us. If he's not as good as you believe then we would be fools to sign him.[/quote]

That has got to be the most intelligent thing I have read this offseason. Go ahead tell them some more. Kudos.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;296257]If you feel he is this good and for the moment I'll go along with your assessment, then wouldn't it stand to reason that he thinks he's even better. What would make him want to sign on as a 3rd string QB? Why wouldn't he wait until the end of pre-season in hopes of catching on with a team who's starting QB went down with injury?

I guess you could wish he were on our team at minimal salary cap expense but the reality is that if he's as good as you believe then he would be a fool to sign with us. If he's not as good as you believe then we would be fools to sign him.[/quote]Very good points.

It's April, and nobody appears to want to give him a starting job. We can't promise him the No. 2 job next year. But we can give him a contract that is of the value of a No. 2 guy, and promise him the backup role for the year after.

Of course, there is no guarentee he would take it, but theres no way the Redskins would know that without investigating.

3 years, 3.5 million SB, base salaries of 750,000 (or whatever league min is), 1 mil, and 1.25 mil.

Total value of contract: 6.5 million for 3 years. Carr and Harrington got 6 million each for [I]2 years[/I] so using that as a standard, this is a great deal for us and one he might accept.

His cap number this year would be 1.9 under my proposed deal. We free up 1.2 mil by releasing Collins. So the net cap cost in 2007 to cheaply fill our backup role through 2009 is 0.7 million.

If that's not a good deal, I don't know what is.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

Not when you feel that you are a starting calliber QB, and there are Open positions in the league.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=angryssg;296267]Not when you feel that you are a starting calliber QB, and there are Open positions in the league.[/quote]Yeah, but that's the idea with waiting this far into FA to open a thread like this.

At this point, Rattay probably can't land a starter role anywhere. Just because he should be able to, if GMs were smart, doesn't mean he can, because oftentimes, they aren't. The league is FULL of market deficiencies. When you are a team like the Cardinals and have 35 million in available cap room, this doesn't really matter. The Cardinals should just be trying to get the best possible player, regardless of cost. When you are a team like the Redskins, and are consistently restructuring everybody to get under the cap...[U]these are the kind of moves you make to fill needs[/U]. The contract I proposed is slightly more than Collins is making, and Rattay is a way better player.

If he's getting 6.5 million over 3 years to play only in injury situations, that may be his best career move.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

He is not going to come here unless Burnell is gone now.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

Yeah, it's pretty unlikely.

I would still consider it a missed oppertunity at this point, especially if we end up breaking the bank next year for a player of lesser caliber.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

Yeah, well, thats the way the league works.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=GTripp0012;296264]Very good points.

It's April, and nobody appears to want to give him a starting job. We can't promise him the No. 2 job next year. But we can give him a contract that is of the value of a No. 2 guy, and promise him the backup role for the year after.

Of course, there is no guarentee he would take it, but theres no way the Redskins would know that without investigating.

3 years, 3.5 million SB, base salaries of 750,000 (or whatever league min is), 1 mil, and 1.25 mil.

Total value of contract: 6.5 million for 3 years. Carr and Harrington got 6 million each for [I]2 years[/I] so using that as a standard, this is a great deal for us and one he might accept.

His cap number this year would be 1.9 under my proposed deal. We free up 1.2 mil by releasing Collins. So the net cap cost in 2007 to cheaply fill our backup role through 2009 is 0.7 million.

If that's not a good deal, I don't know what is.[/quote]

This is the whole thing, your whole plan is based on pie in the sky ideals. Please explain again why Rattay would accept that deal you're proposing???

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

I still don't understand what's so appealing about Tim Rattay.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;296308]I still don't understand what's so appealing about Tim Rattay.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%. I dont see any reason to bring in Ratay.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Mattyk72;296308]I still don't understand what's so appealing about Tim Rattay.[/quote]

Because he is probably better ( right now) than our #2 and #3 options.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;296249]I agree with some of my Skin Brethren, Rattay in the burgundy and gold wold suit me just fine. He also has the arm to come in just in case JC falters for some reason. Brunell personally cost us a nice 3 year playoff run with his weak ass arm. In '05 he neutered our run when his arm went limp going into the playoffs. Collins is in the same boat. Rattay would come on fine with learning the offense in my opinion. JC did fine with it last season, why can't Rattay?[/quote]

Why is Collins in the same boat as Brunell? What makes you think Collins can't play? What makes you so sure? And don't judge him on pre-season while playing with 3rd and 4th stringers.

The fact is we don't know if Collins can, or can't play. All we know is he's got that 700 page playbook down cold.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;296617]Because he is probably better ( right now) than our #2 and #3 options.[/quote]

I think that's debateable.

Even if he is better, I'd say he's marginally better at best and not worth the trouble.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

We can put this topic to rest now. Rattay has signed with the Titans

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

I say just promote one of the QB's we'll have off of the practice squad next season (not this coming season) and make him a #3 and move Collins up to #2 (because I'm sure he could probably go another season past Brunell.) You'd have a young guy who will have some time learning the system under his belt. By the time Collins retires, the #3 guy can move up to #2 and so forth and so on. You'd have a young QB (although mostly unproven) to back up Campbell. The biggest thing you need out of a back up is someone who can at least maintain the offense and give your team a chance to be in some games if not win them.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

Rattay just signed with the Titans.