Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Right.

While I don't know how I feel either way. Just for a second imagine that handguns were made totally illegal in this country, do you think that deaths go UP or DOWN? Sure, people can say that they'll just use other things, but it's a lot easier to run from a knife than a gun.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;299719]There is a pretty big difference between giving everyone the right to a musket and the right to an AK.[/QUOTE]

I would be all for limiting the right to bear arms to muskets. The laughs alone at watching someone try to commit a robbery, murder with a musket would be priceless.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;299330]Well, short of sounding like I live in a cabin in Wyoming working on my manifesto, our founding fathers discussed that same topic concerning the very government they themselves formed.

Governments made up of men are always capable of evil. Not saying we are at that point yet, but the 2nd amendment was instituted so that the citizens would always have the capacity to overthrow their government.

Thomas Jefferson said that the tree of liberty must be freshened from time to time with the blood of tyrants. That concept was never meant to be so foreign.[/QUOTE]

Wow, it's so refreshing to hear you say that. Most people think I'm crazy, or stupid, when I say things like that. You are a true patriot.

This is kind of off-topic, but I felt it was appropriate to say, given the nature of the discussion:
I would like to create a "people's army". This army would not be controlled by any government agency, and its focus would not be armed conflict. The focus of this army would be to prepare themselves to take power from the federal government at a moment's notice. Since the government derives most of its power from money, the people's army would focus there. I imagine that this army would be comprised mostly of computer experts who would always have their hands in the government's business. They would break into federal computer networks, and always be ready to strike. If the time came, they would start draining money out of government accounts.

The major effect of this army would be the increased caution of the federal government. You see, the idea is to never have to use the army. The idea is to make the government think twice about infringing on the people's liberties, due to their concern about how the people's army might react.

It's a crazy idea, and it would probably never work, but that is what I would like to see happen.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

I can just see someone rolling up into a bank with a ski mask on, Davy Crockett hat and a musket.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Can you imagine cops running down the street chasing criminals while they're re-loading their muskets like in the final scenes of Last of the Mohicans??!!

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;299743]Wow, it's so refreshing to hear you say that. Most people think I'm crazy, or stupid, when I say things like that. You are a true patriot.

This is kind of off-topic, but I felt it was appropriate to say, given the nature of the discussion:
I would like to create a "people's army". This army would not be controlled by any government agency, and its focus would not be armed conflict. The focus of this army would be to prepare themselves to take power from the federal government at a moment's notice. Since the government derives most of its power from money, the people's army would focus there. I imagine that this army would be comprised mostly of computer experts who would always have their hands in the government's business. They would break into federal computer networks, and always be ready to strike. If the time came, they would start draining money out of government accounts.

The major effect of this army would be the increased caution of the federal government. You see, the idea is to never have to use the army. The idea is to make the government think twice about infringing on the people's liberties, due to their concern about how the people's army might react.

[B][I] It's a crazy idea, and it would probably never work, but that is what I would like to see happen.[/I][/B][/quote]

You said it yourself. Not to take anything away from your post, but I would think that sheer numbers alone of the public keeps the government in check. We ARE a People's Army and if the government were to all of a sudden try to suppress it's people by force, I don't think that most of the people IN said army are going to go along with it.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Another can you imagine scenario:

If our founding fathers could see us today what do you think they would say?

Something tells me they would think we are idiots with the way we cling so literally to the Constitution that was written for a completely different time.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Yup. The language was intentionally left vague so it could stand the test of time.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;299748]You said it yourself. Not to take anything away from your post, but I would think that sheer numbers alone of the public keeps the government in check. We ARE a People's Army and if the government were to all of a sudden try to suppress it's people by force, I don't think that most of the people IN said army are going to go along with it.[/QUOTE]

True. However, it's not about suppression by force. Nobody would stand for that. The federal government has slowly taken away liberties since its creation. That is what I would like to see stop.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;299750]Another can you imagine scenario:

If our founding fathers could see us today what do you think they would say?

Something tells me they would think we are idiots with the way we cling so literally to the Constitution that was written for a completely different time.[/QUOTE]

I believe they would think we are wimps, and not true patriots. Most people don't care about government infringement as long as they have their Mercedes and Starbucks.

At the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, when queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation, a lady asked Benjamin Franklin, "Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy?"

Franklin replied, "A Republic, if you can keep it."

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;299719]Woah, hold on a minute here. Did you just say that people who are for gun control are anti-Christ? I can't say I agree there.

I don't know that it's fair or right to go back to our founding fathers everytime as the basis for an argument. For one thing, the right to bear arms doesn't even really mean the same thing anymore because the arms (or weapons) aren't even the same anymore. There is a pretty big difference between giving everyone the right to a musket and the right to an AK.[/QUOTE]

Actually no, I didn't say that, it happened to be in the article I pasted, I was going to take a few things out of it which maybe I should have, or put a little foot note, I don't neccasarily agree with that, nor have I read the book they recommended, it was just the basic premace of the article I was refering to. Sorry.

The type of weoponry is irrelevent, it's the spirit in which, and why, this law was brought forth in our constitution.

Any good con man relies on the trust of the person he is going to con.

With all these dictatorships in all these countries around the world, and with all these people being oppressed by them, you still think we are immuned to such a takeover? Maybe not tommorow, but there are people working overtime to try and make it happen.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;299753]True. However, it's not about suppression by force. Nobody would stand for that. The federal government has slowly taken away liberties since its creation. That is what I would like to see stop.[/quote]

What kind of liberties?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;299754]I believe they would think we are wimps, and not true patriots. Most people don't care about government infringement as long as they have their Mercedes and Starbucks.

At the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, when queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation, a lady asked Benjamin Franklin, "Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy?"

Franklin replied, "A Republic, if you can keep it."[/QUOTE]

nice post.

Thought you might like this.


War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.


John Stuart Mill

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;299753]True. However, it's not about suppression by force. Nobody would stand for that. The federal government has slowly taken away liberties since its creation. That is what I would like to see stop.[/QUOTE]

I actually think our government provides FAR more liberties than the Founders envisioned. Just to name a few such liberties: (1) freedom for slaves (black people didn't fare to well under our Forefathers); (2) freedom for women (sex discrimination was sanctioned by the government in 1776 and women were treated as property of their husbands); (3) freedom for Native Americans (we haven't given them small pox ridden blankets in a little while); (4) the right to privacy (which, the Supreme Court only recently recognized); (5) substantive due process; (6) free public schooling; (7) social security and medicare; (8) the right to an abortion (regardless of what you think of it, it is a newly recognized constitutional right); (9) far more liberties for the press (read the Alien & Sedition Act); (10) the right not to be imprisoned for failing to pay debts; (11) the right to speech has been broadened in NUMEROUS ways (people used to be imprisoned for speaking out against WWI and the draft, it used to be a criminal offense in some states to distribute a pamphlet showing a woman's thigh, etc); (12) the right to unionize (unions used to be prosecuted under the Sherman Anti-trust Act as illegal conspiracies to restrain trade); (13) the right to workplace safety (see OSHA); and (14) the right for adults between the age of 18 and 21 to vote. Every Amendment to the Constitution (save Prohibition) since the 19th century (13th through 27th)expanded our rights. The list goes on and on.

Or, look at WWII when our government interned Japanese American citizens en masse in internment camps. And that was after a government attacked a military installation, it did not take place after "hidden" terrorists attacked civilian buildings. Can you honestly see our government doing that today? Our government also [I]summarily[/I] executed "enemy combatants" who were U.S. citizens in WWII. Not so today, see the controversy over guys like Jose Padilla.

It is a myth is that we have fewer rights today than we did in 1776. But don't believe me, talk to any constitutional law scholar. The scope of rights provided by the Constitution and by acts of Congress has been consistently broadened.

Our rights have been expanded for many reasons. First, mass media jumps over infringements of civil liberties. Two, people expect a hell of a lot more today out of our government than they did 50, 100, 200 years ago. People think they have an [I]inherent [/I] right to health care, subsidies, social security etc. Three, watchdog groups like the ACLU are fighting the government in court every day. As much as conservatives hate the ACLU, few of them realize that the ACLU is the epitome of a conservative organization.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

SGG, you're awesome!

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;299718]the one thing that bothers me most about our constitution is you would be hard pressed to find any 200+ year old piece of paper that hasn't been amended. [/QUOTE]

That's why they included an amendment process, to change the Constitution as the need arises.

[QUOTE=dmek25]the 2nd amendment( the right to bear arms) is misinterpreted and needs to be changed. its that simple[/QUOTE]

If it's misinterpreted, then why does it need to be changed? What do you think it was supposed to mean?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;299719]I don't know that it's fair or right to go back to our founding fathers everytime as the basis for an argument. For one thing, the right to bear arms doesn't even really mean the same thing anymore because the arms (or weapons) aren't even the same anymore. There is a pretty big difference between giving everyone the right to a musket and the right to an AK.[/QUOTE]

Let's apply that same argument to another individual right that our founders came up with -- the Constitutional guarantee against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Certainly they never envisioned the terrorist plots of the 21 century, "dirty bombs", cell phones, or other remote electrical detonation devices.

Would you say this guarantee is similarly 'outdated' and should be scrapped, since the world is a different place now and times have changed? Would you argue that their call for probable cause and search warrants issued by an objective third party to be the product of a primitive age and should be adjusted for modern times?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

in the process of forming our new government, a collection of checks and balances was created to keep the new government in line with the democratic thought. no one at that time new if it would work. he we are about 225 years later, and for the most part, the system works. i just don't understand the thought process of the people that think our government could turn into a dictatorship. if this administration hasn't done it, it isn't going to happen

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=Beemnseven;299794]Let's apply that same argument to another individual right that our founders came up with -- the Constitutional guarantee against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Certainly they never envisioned the terrorist plots of the 21 century, "dirty bombs", cell phones, or other remote electrical detonation devices.

Would you say this guarantee is similarly 'outdated' and should be scrapped, since the world is a different place now and times have changed? Would you argue that their call for probable cause and search warrants issued by an objective third party to be the product of a primitive age and should be adjusted for modern times?[/quote]
i think people are flexible enough to go with the flow. but when the powers start abusing it, thats when the chaos starts. the patriot act, in the beginning, was a good tool to combat terroism. but once the powers realized what they had, it became abused to the point it should probably be abolished

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;299741]Just for a second imagine that handguns were made totally illegal in this country, [B]do you think that deaths go UP or DOWN? [/B]Sure, people can say that they'll just use other things, but it's a lot easier to run from a knife than a gun.[/QUOTE]

The deaths of innocent, unarmed, helpless victims would certainly go up.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18181477/site/newsweek/]Va. Shootings: What the World is Saying - Newsweek National News - MSNBC.com[/url]

As someone who is interested in International Relations, Reading this article just shows how other countries view our gun laws. Most of the stern ones come from France, no suprise there. I believe that the person from France does have a point though: people saying we need to let everyone have guns is just backwards thinking. I know too many hot headed people that don't need guns.

I'm for getting rid of them. So someone who wants your wallet might have second thoughts because you could be packing, or he might just shoot your ass and take it because he doesn't want to take that chance.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;299794]Let's apply that same argument to another individual right that our founders came up with -- the Constitutional guarantee against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Certainly they never envisioned the terrorist plots of the 21 century, "dirty bombs", cell phones, or other remote electrical detonation devices.

Would you say this guarantee is similarly 'outdated' and should be scrapped, since the world is a different place now and times have changed? Would you argue that their call for probable cause and search warrants issued by an objective third party to be the product of a primitive age and should be adjusted for modern times?[/QUOTE]

The Constitution was designed to be re-interpreted and amended as society (and its problems) changed. The 4th Amendment is no exception. For example, if you go into most public places, no one can search your person without probable cause. But, if you go into an airport (a public place), the government has every right to search you. The development of the airplane was something the Founding Fathers didn't envision and which the Supreme Court addressed, thereby changing the meaning of the 4th Amendment. Moreover, the government has a right to use all sorts of electronic surveillance equipment on people and places (e.g., airplane "flybys" over property to see what people are doing) without a search warrant and without violating the 4th Amendment.

IMO, the gun control issue and the 2nd Amendment is no different. Today's weapons are far more lethal than muskets and the need for militias to prevent against the "King's men" is far less great than it was in the 18th Century. Gun violence is a major problem that requires a serious and dramatic solution. I don't know exactly what that solution is, but I do know that the status quo is not working.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Bushead;299799]I believe that the person from France does have a point though: people saying we need to let everyone have guns is just backwards thinking. I know too many hot headed people that don't need guns. [/QUOTE]

So it is you who gets to decide what other people's needs are?

Suppose someone started dictating to you what you do and do not need?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Bushead;299799]So someone who wants your wallet might have second thoughts because you could be packing, or he might just shoot your ass and take it because he doesn't want to take that chance.[/QUOTE]

Interesting, I never even thought of that point. There are a lot of criminals who use guns in crimes but who have no intention of using them. Maybe, if they thought they'd get shot at, they'd just ambush people so as to avoid the risk of a "fair" shootout.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;299804]So it is you who gets to decide what other people's needs are?

Suppose someone started dictating to you what you do and do not need?[/QUOTE]

They tell me I need seatbelts. They tell me I don't need a surface to air missile. They tell me I can't plant mines in my front yard to deter robbers. They tell me I don't need a nuclear device. I'm being sarcastic, but the government has, does, and always will tell me what I need and don't need. It's just a matter of degree and IMO I don't need an AK-47.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=Beemnseven;299798]The deaths of innocent, unarmed, helpless victims would certainly go up.[/quote]

I think that's being a little too selective though. I'm talking deaths in general. I think that would even be marginal because say someone ends up in a shootout, there's no guarantee they still walk away.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299803]The Constitution was designed to be re-interpreted and amended as society (and its problems) changed. The 4th Amendment is no exception. For example, if you go into most public places, no one can search your person without probable cause. But, if you go into an airport (a public place), the government has every right to search you. The development of the airplane was something the Founding Fathers didn't envision and which the Supreme Court addressed, thereby changing the meaning of the 4th Amendment. Moreover, the government has a right to use all sorts of electronic surveillance equipment on people and places (e.g., airplane "flybys" over property to see what people are doing) without a search warrant and without violating the 4th Amendment.

IMO, the gun control issue and the 2nd Amendment is no different. Today's weapons are far more lethal than muskets and the need for militias to prevent against the "King's men" is far less great than it was in the 18th Century. Gun violence is a major problem that requires a serious and dramatic solution. I don't know exactly what that solution is, but I do know that the status quo is not working.[/QUOTE]

Short of a majority of Americans, there is nothing stopping anyone from attempting to lobby their representatives to repeal the 2nd amendment.

When the people are prohibited from using firearms to defend themselves, the crime rate will go up. Guns will be a black market item, we will repeat the mistakes we made with the prohibition of alcohol and drugs, and the individuals who have no intention of following the law, who mean to cause harm upon others will have no disincentive to try it, since they will have free reign over helpless victims.

There will never be a police force large enough to handle such an unprecedented onslaught.

What's "not working" is the understanding that there will always be crime, there will always be maniacs who thwart the law, and there will always be victims. No amount of legislation will change the capability of evil in human beings. But to deny the people their most basic ability to defend themselves against an armed attacker, would be to make the problem much, much worse.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=Bushead;299799][URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18181477/site/newsweek/"]Va. Shootings: What the World is Saying - Newsweek National News - MSNBC.com[/URL]

As someone who is interested in International Relations, Reading this article just shows how other countries view our gun laws. Most of the stern ones come from France, no suprise there. I believe that the person from France does have a point though: people saying we need to let everyone have guns is just backwards thinking. I know too many hot headed people that don't need guns.

I'm for getting rid of them. So someone who wants your wallet might have second thoughts because you could be packing, or he might just shoot your ass and take it because he doesn't want to take that chance.[/quote]

I read this quote and became severely heated:

[B][/B][I]"It is a big loss for the American people and I think that this is a message from Allah to them to stop and think of what is happening in Iraq. Thousands of Iraqis lost their sons or fathers and all of this was because of the so-called American democracy being exported to Third World countries."


[/I]

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Supposing, for argument's sake, that crime does spike. At some point, would it not decrease as guns age, the supply of ammo dwindles, etc.? Even if we don't reap the benefits of a relatively gun free society for another 100 years, I think it makes sense to get rid of guns.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299808]They tell me I need seatbelts. They tell me I don't need a surface to air missile. They tell me I can't plant mines in my front yard to deter robbers. They tell me I don't need a nuclear device. I'm being sarcastic, but the government has, does, and always will tell me what I need and don't need. It's just a matter of degree and IMO I don't need an AK-47.[/QUOTE]

Those are not examples of the government telling you what your needs are, they are telling you what you can and cannot do. There is a distinction.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299813]Supposing, for argument's sake, that crime does spike. At some point, would it not decrease as guns age, the supply of ammo dwindles, etc.? Even if we don't reap the benefits of a relatively gun free society for another 100 years, I think it makes sense to get rid of guns.[/QUOTE]

And how many helpless victims have to wait out this type of deterioration?

Do you have the right to defend yourself SSG?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;299815]And how many helpless victims have to wait out this type of deterioration?

Do you have the right to defend yourself SSG?[/QUOTE]

#1. I doubt that the country would become the Mad Max World that you are predicting it would be.

#2. I have the right to defend myself, but I should not have the right to possess a weapon that can kill dozens of people should I decide to flip out.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;299812]I read this quote and became severely heated:

[I]"It is a big loss for the American people and I think that this is a message from Allah to them to stop and think of what is happening in Iraq. Thousands of Iraqis lost their sons or fathers and all of this was because of the so-called American democracy being exported to Third World countries."


[/I][/quote]

All though misguided, it is very important to understand how other countries think, so we can all come to a better understanding and remove the misconceptions we have of each other.

In my opinion, its going to be VERY VERY easy for other countries to make the connection with the Iraq war, to Bush, to this event, even though they aren't that connected...or are they?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;299810]I think that's being a little too selective though. I'm talking deaths in general. I think that would even be marginal because say someone ends up in a shootout, there's no guarantee they still walk away.[/QUOTE]

See, I don't think this is really a rational scenario. It's like saying, "what if there were no disease" ?

The horse is out of the barn as far as guns go. Weaponry for defense was a natural creation among human beings since the dawn of time.

I mean what are we going to do? Send SWAT teams out to raid every home in America to confiscate all firearms? Come on, that's never going to happen.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Beems, do you think the readily available supply of weapons in Iraq is doing a good job of deterring crime?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;299818]See, I don't think this is really a rational scenario. It's like saying, "what if there were no disease" ?

The horse is out of the barn as far as guns go. Weaponry for defense was a natural creation among human beings since the dawn of time.

I mean what are we going to do? Send SWAT teams out to raid every home in America to confiscate all firearms? Come on, that's never going to happen.[/QUOTE]

So, you don't take issue with our central premise (e.g., that in a perfect world guns would be banned). Rather, you believe that it is[I] impossible[/I] to get firearms out of circulation?

First off, most handguns and assault weapons can be tracked. Second, as guns are confiscated they would be destroyed. Third, guns would no longer be manufactured. Fourth, a more limited supply of guns would drive cost up and, as cost goes up, the ability of criminals to access them decreases. The supply would run out to next to nothing over time.

BTW, I love how you discuss the matter intelligently and civilly. We disagree, but I've gotta give you props for style.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Supply and Demand; busting out micro econ!

SGG does have a point. This would mean only rich people would be able to access guns and, in turn, be able to "defend" themselves. ;)

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299816]#1. I doubt that the country would become the Mad Max World that you are predicting it would be.

#2. I have the right to defend myself, but I should not have the right to possess a weapon that can kill dozens of people should I decide to flip out.[/QUOTE]

1. You only have to look at recent events to recognize the capability of evil in the human heart. If you cannot envision a state in which the law-abiding won't be at the mercy of the lawless, then I don't know what else to say.

2. What if a dozen people mean to do you harm? Is your right of self-defense limited to the type of weapon your opponent has? i.e. they have a knife, so I can defend myself with a knife, but if they have handgun with a magazine capacity of 15 rounds, legally, I may not possess such a weapon.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299819]Beems, do you think the readily available supply of weapons in Iraq is doing a good job of deterring crime?[/QUOTE]

Since the state of Iraq's government is in complete disarray and there's no semblance of a police force to adequately address the problem of crime, I'd say this is a poor comparison to use.

I will say that if guns were outlawed amongst the general public, there would still be crime, wouldn't you agree?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;299825]Since the state of Iraq's government is in complete disarray and there's no semblance of a police force to adequately address the problem of crime, I'd say this is a poor comparison to use.[/QUOTE]

You predict that, absent legal gun ownership, the streets of America would be unbelievably chaotic with death everywhere. As a corollary, you believe that the U.S. government is [I]incapable [/I]of protecting the people by itself (i.e., it needs gun owners to assist). So, with regard to Iraq, I don't see how you can simply blame their ineffective government for the violence. After all, you already believe that our government is incapable of keeping us relatively safe.

Obviously, there are many other problems in Iraq (sectarian strife) that we do not have. So Iraq, of course, is not completely analogous. But, I don't think there is a single person who believes that the proliferation of weapons in Iraq has deterred criminals.

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;299825]I will say that if guns were outlawed amongst the general public, there would still be crime, wouldn't you agree?[/QUOTE]
I certainly agree. But, I also think that gun crimes would decrease as the availability of guns decreases and their cost increases.