Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Schneed10;351784][quote=Hog1;351765]

First, answers to questions one and two aren't much of an answer. I'm supposed to "take a chance" on the religion that is correct, and if I'm right I go to heaven , and if I'm wrong I go to hell? Seems ridiculous.

As for answers 3 and 4, so I'm going to be rejected from Heaven if I'm a good person but don't believe in God? What about the guy who grows up in Iraq who is a good person, but is raised Muslim. He never gets exposed to God, because where he lives humans teach of Islam and Allah. He's going to go to hell? God would thereby reject any human from heaven based mainly on their geographical location. Asians and Indians tend not to believe in God, they mostly follow Buddhism and Hinduism. People in the middle east tend to be Islamic. That doesn't seem like a gracious and just God to me - in fact it sounds almost racist.

You're telling me that God would send anyone to hell who doesn't believe in him, without even considering the fact that people China and India, which comprise 40% of the Earth's population, never even have the opportunity to accept God because it's not taught in their homes?

Makes no sense to me.[/quote]

Of course it doesn't make sense. But faith doesn't make sense, does it?

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Schneed10;351784][quote=Hog1;351765]

First, answers to questions one and two aren't much of an answer. I'm supposed to "take a chance" on the religion that is correct, and if I'm right I go to heaven , and if I'm wrong I go to hell? Seems ridiculous.

As for answers 3 and 4, so I'm going to be rejected from Heaven if I'm a good person but don't believe in God? What about the guy who grows up in Iraq who is a good person, but is raised Muslim. He never gets exposed to God, because where he lives humans teach of Islam and Allah. He's going to go to hell? God would thereby reject any human from heaven based mainly on their geographical location. Asians and Indians tend not to believe in God, they mostly follow Buddhism and Hinduism. People in the middle east tend to be Islamic. That doesn't seem like a gracious and just God to me - in fact it sounds almost racist.

[B]You're telling me that God would send anyone to hell who doesn't believe in him, without even considering the fact that people China and India, which comprise 40% of the Earth's population, never even have the opportunity to accept God because it's not taught in their homes?[/B]

Makes no sense to me.[/quote]
There are christians and missionaries everywhere in the world. Also, Christian satellite television has exploded in the past 20 years. I would find it very hard to believe that in this day and age a person could go through their entire life and have not heard the gospel at least once.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Lady Brave;351788][quote=Schneed10;351784]
There are christians and missionaries everywhere in the world. Also, Christian satellite television has exploded in the past 20 years. I would find it very hard to believe that in this day and age a person could go through their entire life and have not heard the gospel at least once.[/quote]

So then it's reasonable for Hindus in India or Buddhists in China to eschew the beliefs that were taught to them in school, by their parents at home, and practiced by everyone in their villages in favor of the beliefs taught by the ONE local Christian missionary in the village and the Christian sattellite TV? God's still going to send them to hell?

Harsh.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=12thMan;351786][quote=Schneed10;351784]

Of course it doesn't make sense. But faith doesn't make sense, does it?[/quote]

Which is exactly why I can't believe in it. There's not even consistency and evenhandedness, even if you ASSUME God exists.

You can be a decent human being living in a culture with little to no exposure to Christianity, but according to the Bible, you're going to Hell. The Bible also claims God to be just, loving, and forgiving.

Can you reconcile this for me? I certainly can't.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

By the way, what's going on with the quote language? It's assigning the wrong poster to the wrong comments.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Schneed10;351795]By the way, what's going on with the quote language? It's assigning the wrong poster to the wrong comments.[/quote]


I noticed that too. I know you're full of yourself and all, but I was thinking you had reached an all time by quoting yourself:)

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=12thMan;351799]I noticed that too. I know you're full of yourself and all, but I was thinking you had reached an all time by quoting yourself:)[/quote]

LOL!

To be honest, I've quoted myself before to be like "I told you so" on a few Redskin-related predictions. But not here.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Lady Brave;351788][quote=Schneed10;351784]
There are christians and missionaries everywhere in the world. Also, Christian satellite television has exploded in the past 20 years. I would find it very hard to believe that in this day and age a person could go through their entire life and have not heard the gospel at least once.[/quote]

They've heard it, but like most QVC commercials, they recognize the sales pitch, and quickly change the channel to the NFL Network.

It must be difficult to legitimize your faith when you are compared to evangelists. Smack on the forehead, "You're healed!"

Re: Does prayer work?
 

I cannot and would not proclaim that there is but one path the lord. I really do not know if Hinduism, Buddism, and all the other ism's get you in the good seats in the afterlife. I wish I did. I believe the true path of christianity takes you there. If you do not, it's cool. It apparently does not fit in your finite world.
Just like another has already posted........faith. Thats the test, and the Catch-22. I choose to believe. I have experienced things that have reinforced those beliefs many times.
After all, there is plenty of room in life for believers and non believers. The afterlife may.................be a problem

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Schneed10;351784][quote=Hog1;351765]
As for answers 3 and 4, so I'm going to be rejected from Heaven if I'm a good person but don't believe in God? What about the guy who grows up in Iraq who is a good person, but is raised Muslim.[B] He never gets exposed to God, because where he lives humans teach of Islam and Allah[/B]. He's going to go to hell? God would thereby reject any human from heaven based mainly on their geographical location. Asians and Indians tend not to believe in God, they mostly follow Buddhism and Hinduism. People in the middle east tend to be Islamic. That doesn't seem like a gracious and just God to me - in fact it sounds almost racist.
[/quote]


Some clarifications are in order. How does one say God in Chinese (神) or French (Dieu) or Italian (Dio)? Allah is the Arabic word for God. Even Christian and Jewish Arabs refer to God as Allah.

Allah -> God
God -> Allah

I would also like to add that Muslims believe in Jesus, just not as the Son of God.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Monksdown;351809]

They've heard it, but like most QVC commercials, they recognize the sales pitch, and quickly change the channel to the NFL Network.

It must be difficult to legitimize your faith when you are compared to evangelists. Smack on the forehead, "You're healed!"[/quote]


Bravo! Standing Ovation!

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Monksdown;351809][quote=Lady Brave;351788]

They've heard it, but like most QVC commercials, they recognize the sales pitch, and quickly change the channel to the NFL Network.

It must be difficult to legitimize your faith when you are compared to evangelists. Smack on the forehead, "You're healed!"[/quote]

Let's just say for a minute, that there are phony Evaneglists...wouldn't it be right to also assume, at least by that logic, that there are those who are truly authentic; perhaps true messengers sent from the Lord?

Re: Does prayer work?
 

If we label them "phony." Logic would imply that their would need to be some authentic messengers. True.

I don't think so, myself. Because I don't believe that there is any substance to the message.

Two reasons for my post;
1. to make you laugh.
2. to argue that the proliferation of TV worship has had negative side effects as well as positive(from your view).

The Sunday morning TV shows are in my opinion, negative for two big reasons. They are catering to the ignorant, and now lazy American populous. And i don't know about you Private Pile, but fat and stupid are not the way I want to go through life.

I apologize if my opinions upset you. Prayer does work, but not because you're talking to god. But because you're talking to yourself. And introspection is a very good medicine.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Monksdown;351870]If we label them "phony." Logic would imply that their would need to be some authentic messengers. True.

I don't think so, myself. Because I don't believe that there is any substance to the message.

Two reasons for my post;
1. to make you laugh.
2. to argue that the proliferation of TV worship has had negative side effects as well as positive(from your view).

The Sunday morning TV shows are in my opinion, negative for two big reasons. They are catering to the ignorant, and now lazy American populous. And i don't know about you Private Pile, but fat and stupid are not the way I want to go through life.

I apologize if my opinions upset you. Prayer does work, but not because you're talking to god. But because you're talking to yourself. And introspection is a very good medicine.[/quote]

Hmm..without nitpicking here, I think there is a nugget of truth in what you said about Sunday morning TV church services. But I don't think that's just a religious phenomenon, I think it's partially cultural and partially religious driven.

Regarding prayer, the biblical definition of prayer most definitely involves God. Without fail, if you search the scriptures, you'll find that men and women, during the act of prayer are seeking God in some way. It's not a matter of meditation as most Eastern religions or schools of thought might categorize it. Just to be clear, I'm not saying Christianity owns exclusive rights to the word or term "prayer", but to the Christian and to the Budist, prayer may carry two different connotations.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

i prayed for a superbowl......

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;351765][quote=Schneed10;351742]

Q1
Well, that's what the Bible says. But how do we know the Bible is right? How do we know some other religion is the correct one? Just because of a Christian belief?

A1
It's the chance you take. The choice is yours to make! After all, it ONLY affects you.

Q2
What if I'm praying to the wrong God? What if the Greeks had it right, and there are multiple gods? What if the Taoists were right? What if the Buddhists are right?

A2
Same as A1

Q3
If I lead a good life, as Jesus wanted me to live it, but I don't believe in God, would God still allow me to go to hell? If so, I don't see what's so great about God.

A3
That is but one of......MANY things Jesus speaks. Most importantly, the way to eternal life is through Jesus, and acceptance of him. Being a good guy will not suffice.

Q4
Seems to me, priority one should be how you treated your fellow man while you were on Earth, not whether you actually believed in God or not.

A4
Although in your mind, I have no doubt that your own opinion of the "Heavenly Hoyle" and it's attendant rules are paramount. I don't think God shares your view................because, it's His way, or the HIGHWAY TO HELL........sing it Brian!!!!

For answers to this and other life questions like it, please consult your local King James.[/QUOTE]

My boy speaks the truth.
Accept or Reject God. There is no Middle Ground or Gray Area.

If you think Hell will be a party with cool people for FOREVER then God gives you that choice.

Still a good thread so far even if a bunch of you don't beliebe. That's not my job to "make" you believe, just share the Word.

Keep giving this thought folks yer only out of time if you die.
peace

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=DEVIL'S OWN;351910]i prayed for a superbowl......[/quote]

Hopefully the one that shall not be named shall answer your prayers this year.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=saden1;351859]

Some clarifications are in order. How does one say God in Chinese (神) or French (Dieu) or Italian (Dio)? Allah is the Arabic word for God. Even Christian and Jewish Arabs refer to God as Allah.

Allah -> God
God -> Allah

I would also like to add that Muslims believe in Jesus, just not as the Son of God.[/quote]

Yes, but the bigger point is the various religions contain varying teachings and views on the afterlife.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

Can anyone tell me why Christian evangelists almost alway look evil and are constantly getting busted for some kind of sexual offense, often involving members of the same sex; and why Christian priests prefer young boys to such an extent and like to whip themselves in their rooms.

I'm also all wrapped up trying to figure out why the Vatican supported the Nazis and before that the church burned a million innocent women as witches. I would also like to know why Christians caused the deaths of over 32 million Indians during the Age of Exploration, and why more people have been slaughtered in the name of God than for all other reasons since recorded history began.

Oh yeah. Why should I be tolerant of religions when the world is on the brink of World War because of two of the dumbest religions ever invented by man. Sorry about my attitude, but I've got kids, not that the evangelical fool in the White House cares.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;351967]Can anyone tell me why Christian evangelists almost alway look evil and are constantly getting busted for some kind of sexual offense, often involving members of the same sex; and why Christian priests prefer young boys to such an extent and like to whip themselves in their rooms.

I'm also all wrapped up trying to figure out why the Vatican supported the Nazis and before that the church burned a million innocent women as witches. I would also like to know why Christians caused the deaths of over 32 million Indians during the Age of Exploration, and why more people have been slaughtered in the name of God than for all other reasons since recorded history began.

Oh yeah. Why should I be tolerant of religions when the world is on the brink of World War because of two of the dumbest religions ever invented by man. Sorry about my attitude, but I've got kids, not that the evangelical fool in the White House cares.[/quote]

While I think many of your "facts" and accusations are well off base, I agree with the sentiment.

One of the problems with faith is you believe so deeply in something, and because of that you close your mind off to other possibilities and thereby refuse to even consider the differing viewpoints of other cultures and other men. The closemindedness creates a breach between ourselves and other cultures that can only be bridged by keeping an open mind. What's worse is to take actions based on your close-minded beliefs - as Al Qaeda is doing. It leads to holy wars.

"How can something well guided turn out to be divisive."
- 311

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;351967] more people have been slaughtered in the name of God than for all other reasons since recorded history began.

[/quote]

Demonstrably untrue. To wit: Mao Zedong alone killed at least 60 million people which is more than were killed by all the religous peopel in history put together. Throw in Stalin, Pol Pot, your friend Fidel Castro and the number surpasses 100 million. To borrow a phrase, "Why must you turn this forum into a house of lies?"

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Sammy Baugh Fan;351912][quote=Hog1;351765]

My boy speaks the truth.
Accept or Reject God. There is no Middle Ground or Gray Area.

If you think Hell will be a party with cool people for FOREVER then God gives you that choice.

Still a good thread so far even if a bunch of you don't beliebe. That's not my job to "make" you believe, just share the Word.

Keep giving this thought folks yer only out of time if you die.
peace[/quote]

How do you know there's no gray area? You don't, of course. Actually, there are so many possibilities in relation to notions of God that there is infinite gray area in regard to a creator. Maybe the creator was/is an inanimate object or gas for instance, which is a popular notion in science these day because of new discoveries about black holes. Try readings in physics. Get back to me of why the Bible has no knowledge that space is curved and light moves as both a particle and a wave.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Schneed10;351977]While I think many of your "facts" and accusations are well off base, I agree with the sentiment.

One of the problems with faith is you believe so deeply in something, and because of that you close your mind off to other possibilities and thereby refuse to even consider the differing viewpoints of other cultures and other men. The closemindedness creates a breach between ourselves and other cultures that can only be bridged by keeping an open mind. What's worse is to take actions based on your close-minded beliefs - as Al Qaeda is doing. It leads to holy wars.

"How can something well guided turn out to be divisive."


- 311[/quote]

Why point fingers at Al Qaeda. We voted for Neo-cons twice and put them in office twice. They are a thousand times more dangerous than Al Qaeda . They've killed far more people than Al Qaeda has and certainly threaten American freedom more than Al Qaeda could ever hope to.

You warn us about close mindedness and then fail to recognize your/our own. Apparently, you are incapable of seeing any validity at all in Al Qaeda's point of view or even try to examine it. How knee jerk can you be.

Here, for instance, is an Al Qaeda view you can probably understand if you try: Al Qaeda doesn't think we should be shipping arms to Israel for the purpose of killing Arabs or using our superior power to take over their lands, establish bases in Arab countries. and steal their oil.

In relation to the deaths caused by religious wars, try Sam Harris' book, "The End of Faith."

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=70Chip;351987]Demonstrably untrue. To wit: Mao Zedong alone killed at least 60 million people which is more than were killed by all the religous peopel in history put together. Throw in Stalin, Pol Pot, your friend Fidel Castro and the number surpasses 100 million. To borrow a phrase, "Why must you turn this forum into a house of lies?"[/quote]

Why do you call people liars when you haven't done your homework. Just to mention one Christian atrocity: over 30 million Indians were killed during the Age of exploration in the America's alone. That's just a tip of the iceberg.
I'll return to this when I have more time.

By the way, saying I'm a friend of Castro is a cheap shot and unworthy of someone who doesn't want this forum to be a house of lies. I'm not a friend of Castro's, or any other tyrants, including butchers like Pol Pot and George Bush.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Sammy Baugh Fan;351711]I agree. And to answer MattyK. Yes, if you reject God He will let you go to Hell. He gave you Free Will to accept Him and His truth or turn your back and reject Him and be eternally without Him. That's Hell.

~still can't believe this thread has not imploded. Thanks to everyone and Mods for stay very civil.

peace & prayers
mike
<><[/quote]

If you would say you believed such and such instead of " I know," I would be more receptive to your comments. I don't believe you know any more about heaven or hell than I do, which is nothing.

Why not just tell us why you believe what you do? That might be more instructive.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Lady Brave;351788][quote=Schneed10;351784]
There are christians and missionaries everywhere in the world. Also, Christian satellite television has exploded in the past 20 years. I would find it very hard to believe that in this day and age a person could go through their entire life and have not heard the gospel at least once.[/quote]

Oh, only primitive people in the past got thrown into hell for not believing in Jesus, of whom they had never heard. Makes me feel much better about God's fairness.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;352099]Why point fingers at Al Qaeda. We voted for Neo-cons twice and put them in office twice. They are a thousand times more dangerous than Al Qaeda . They've killed far more people than Al Qaeda has and certainly threaten American freedom more than Al Qaeda could ever hope to.

You warn us about close mindedness and then fail to recognize your/our own. Apparently, you are incapable of seeing any validity at all in Al Qaeda's point of view or even try to examine it. How knee jerk can you be.

Here, for instance, is an Al Qaeda view you can probably understand if you try: Al Qaeda doesn't think we should be shipping arms to Israel for the purpose of killing Arabs or using our superior power to take over their lands, establish bases in Arab countries. and steal their oil.

In relation to the deaths caused by religious wars, try Sam Harris' book, "The End of Faith."[/quote]

Wow, did you ever misunderstand me. That statement was not to point fingers at Al Qaeda; it was to provide an example of religious belief providing a basis for taking hostile action towards other people. Is that not the very definition of a jihad? I'm equally fine with pointing towards the Salem witch hunt, or the Crusades. Religious belief provides humans with a reason to close their minds off to the ideas of other cultures. The west has been guilty of it throughout history, just as Al-Qaeda is now.

I don't care to argue politics in this thread. This thread is about prayer and religion. My point is that religious belief causes division in our world.

So strange for you to jump down my throat after I was one of the very few people on this forum that actually agreed with something you had to say. But whatever.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;352101]If you would say you believed such and such instead of " I know," I would be more receptive to your comments. I don't believe you know any more about heaven or hell than I do, which is nothing.

Why not just tell us why you believe what you do? That might be more instructive.[/quote]

Now this was a good post. This is exactly why religious belief can be so dangerous. People actually become convinced that they "know" things rather than only "believing" them.

It's important to draw the line between belief and fact (ie knowledge), otherwise your beliefs come across as arrogant and inflammatory.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

If this is going to be another of Crazyhorse's "I'm going to educate the world about how smart I am, and how stupid the rest of you are about GW Bush and the evils of the world" threads, it's getting locked.

Comparing Bush to Pol Pot, amazing.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;352123]If this is going to be another of Crazyhorse's "I'm going to educate the world about how smart I am, and how stupid the rest of you are about GW Bush and the evils of the world" threads, it's getting locked.

Comparing Bush to Pol Pot, amazing.[/quote]

Thank you. This has been a very good thread, the discussion has been thought provoking on the subject of prayer, religion, and higher powers. Last thing I'd want to see is the thread driven into the ground by politics.

I heart SS.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Schneed10;352117]Wow, did you ever misunderstand me. That statement was not to point fingers at Al Qaeda; it was to provide an example of religious belief providing a basis for taking hostile action towards other people. Is that not the very definition of a jihad? I'm equally fine with pointing towards the Salem witch hunt, or the Crusades. Religious belief provides humans with a reason to close their minds off to the ideas of other cultures. The west has been guilty of it throughout history, just as Al-Qaeda is now.

I don't care to argue politics in this thread. This thread is about prayer and religion. My point is that religious belief causes division in our world.

So strange for you to jump down my throat after I was one of the very few people on this forum that actually agreed with something you had to say. But whatever.[/quote]

You are totally correct. I apologize. I'm the one who is guilty of knee-jerk behavior. I'll read your posts more carefully the next time.

Re: Does prayer work?
 

[quote=Crazyhorse1;352100]By the way, saying I'm a friend of Castro is a cheap shot and unworthy of someone who doesn't want this forum to be a house of lies. I'm not a friend of Castro's, or any other tyrants, including butchers like Pol Pot and George Bush.[/quote]

Since you hold religion responsible for the atrocities of the religous and lump all believers together, it seems perfectly reasonable for me to hold athiesm responsible for the atrocities of athiests and lump all non-believers together.