Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

I didn't have a problem with the guys they drafted, just the fact that they are all receivers. If we were a superbowl team then that is one thing, but odds are we will probably lose 3 of our starting 5 linemen due to injury if past history is any indicator and they are a year older. I thought we really needed offensive or defensive linemen more then another possible wideout or backup TE.

Fred Davis won't be able to do much if he is having to stay back to protect JC all the time. Having a dominant offensive line is alot more critical then having the top receiver corps. Good wideouts can get open with enough time, but if your QB is having to throw the ball in 3 seconds because his line is porous then I don't care who your receivers are, it won't matter. Plus you then have no running game if they can't open holes.

There is also the defensive line which really needs help and we didn't do anything.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=skinsfan69;445189]Don't you think you're being a little too tough on Kelly and Thomas? [B]Kelly did start all 4 years at Ok[/B]. That's pretty damn impressive if you ask me. Don't you think so? How many wr's start all 4 years at a top college program? No many, if any at all. Right now it's just too early to tell if these guys are #1's or #2's.[/quote]Kelly started three years, came out as a junior.

The guys who start four years at a top college program and get picked high are the ones who lead the league in receiving every year. Torry Holt. Dwyane Bowe. Hines Ward. Javon Walker. Etc...

Kelly's issue was more of his speed. He's a Keyshawn Johnson type, it doesn't take a genius to see that. I mean, Keyshawn Johnson was very, very good for a long time. That's the best case scenario for Malcolm Kelly, who was productive multiple years in college.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=Mattyk72;445181]Didn't you just say neither will develop into a #1 WR?[/quote]That's an observation we can be fairly certain about, and an opinion that most draft analysts share. What I didn't do was try to tell you exactly how good they would be, because we have no clue.

All we can do is say "if he's everything we want him to be, he will be this", or "if he's a failure, he will be this". No one is trying to answer those questions right now, but people are misconstruing the concept of value. A bunch of teams passing on a player doesn't make him valuable and people are confused on this concept.

Devin Thomas was the second receiver selected. The only way he can be a steal is if he's the best receiver in the entire draft. That's how we have to grade value. Malcolm Kelly was the 6th or 7th receiver taken, so he has a much better chance to be valuable.

But no, I'm not saying that this player will be this or this player will be that. Just pointing out the obvious: no team in the NFL thought either of these guys would be a good No. 1 receiver for them, so they passed. A lot of teams think that both these guys have No. 2 potential, and hopefully, they pan out for us.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;445202]That's an observation we can be fairly certain about, and an opinion that most draft analysts share. What I didn't do was try to tell you exactly how good they would be, because we have no clue.

All we can do is say "if he's everything we want him to be, he will be this", or "if he's a failure, he will be this". No one is trying to answer those questions right now, but people are misconstruing the concept of value. A bunch of teams passing on a player doesn't make him valuable and people are confused on this concept.

Devin Thomas was the second receiver selected. The only way he can be a steal is if he's the best receiver in the entire draft. That's how we have to grade value. Malcolm Kelly was the 6th or 7th receiver taken, so he has a much better chance to be valuable.

But no, I'm not saying that this player will be this or this player will be that. Just pointing out the obvious: no team in the NFL thought either of these guys would be a good No. 1 receiver for them, so they passed. A lot of teams think that both these guys have No. 2 potential, and hopefully, they pan out for us.[/QUOTE]

I agree, the concensus was that this draft was very weak at the receiver position with no clear No 1 type receiver. Hopefully we found 2 of them, but receiver is one of the toughest positions to judge if they will make it in the NFL and I think we would have been better overall addressing other needs after taking 1.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=GTripp0012;445202]That's an observation we can be fairly certain about, and an opinion that most draft analysts share. What I didn't do was try to tell you exactly how good they would be, because we have no clue.[/quote]

Until we see these guys on the field and see how well they pick up the offense and how their skills translate to the NFL I don't think we can really be certain about anything. Plus there are aspects that we can't measure that are x factors here. Mainly their work ethics both on the field and in the film room.

In another thread I think you equated Thomas to Eddie Kennison and Kelly to Keyshawn Johnson. Sounds to me like you've told us how good you think they can be.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;445151]WR was not a need coming off last year? Wow.[/QUOTE]

I dont think so. In fact I think WR was one of the areas where the Skins were in decent shape. I think O & D Line were way bigger needs than WR.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

F minus minus. I will elaborate on why grim4coach says vinnie and danny are retarded:

1) We took two identical WR's. Kelly is slow as molasses...4.78 40? DE's had better times.
2) We have a Pro Bowl TE. There's another roster spot that will go unused.
3) Rinehart & Tryon were both graded by most boards as seventh-round picks
4) We drafted a PUNTER??? Unbelievable. THERE IS NO WAY THIS GUY MAKES THE ROSTER. LET ME REPEAT: THERE IS NO WAY THIS GUY MAKES THE ROSTER.
5) Colt Brennan? Can't read a Defense and has a weak arm. Kinda reminds me of Danny Wureful. GREAT pick vinnie. WONT MAKE THE ROSTER. Oh yea...just had HIP SURGERY...prolly be on IR all year anyway.
6) The last two were at the end of round seven...they are practically FAs.

So one draft, ten picks...maybe one of these guys make the roster, Maybe.

F'n retarded.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;445007]It sounds like we drafted based on the "best player available" philosophy. I think most GMs would agree that, in the long run, that's the best way to build a top notch franchise. Thomas, Kelly, Davis, and Brennan all appear to have been great values. I too wish we had drafted more linemen, but it's hard to take serious issue with the bpa philosophy.[/QUOTE]

That is exactly what we did and I think we had a pretty decent draft because of it. No, we didn't get any stud defense ends, but that's just how the draft worked out for us. I like the philosophy of drafting the best available position as opposed to only addressing the needs. So, overall, I give the draft a B. I'm excited to see what our receivers will do in the next few seasons, and I'm especially intrigued by Fred Davis. Could be a nice one-two punch between him and Chris Cooley.

As far as drafting for the secondary, you can never have enough depth in the secondary. The Colt Brennan pick also intrigued me. Definitely a project player. He'll be placed on injured reserve for this season, which will probably work out best for Colt. Could possibly be a very good back-up for us when Collins retires.

Besides the OL and DL, I see the Redskins getting very young very fast!

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=sbaughone;445216]F minus minus. I will elaborate on why grim4coach says vinnie and danny are retarded:

1) We took two identical WR's. Kelly is slow as molasses...4.78 40? DE's had better times.
2) We have a Pro Bowl TE. There's another roster spot that will go unused.
3) Rinehart & Tryon were both graded by most boards as seventh-round picks
4) We drafted a PUNTER??? Unbelievable. THERE IS NO WAY THIS GUY MAKES THE ROSTER. LET ME REPEAT: THERE IS NO WAY THIS GUY MAKES THE ROSTER.
5) Colt Brennan? Can't read a Defense and has a weak arm. Kinda reminds me of Danny Wureful. GREAT pick vinnie. WONT MAKE THE ROSTER. Oh yea...just had HIP SURGERY...prolly be on IR all year anyway.
6) The last two were at the end of round seven...they are practically FAs.

So one draft, ten picks...maybe one of these guys make the roster, Maybe.

F'n retarded.[/QUOTE]


your information for all 6 of these points is either wrong or skewed to prove your ill advised point

I dont have the time nor the effort to explain how each is faulty... I will just save your post and serve it to you in the future

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=sbaughone;445216]F minus minus. I will elaborate on why grim4coach says vinnie and danny are retarded:

1) We took two identical WR's. Kelly is slow as molasses...4.78 40? DE's had better times.
2) We have a Pro Bowl TE. There's another roster spot that will go unused.
3) Rinehart & Tryon were both graded by most boards as seventh-round picks
4) We drafted a PUNTER??? Unbelievable. THERE IS NO WAY THIS GUY MAKES THE ROSTER. LET ME REPEAT: THERE IS NO WAY THIS GUY MAKES THE ROSTER.
5) Colt Brennan? Can't read a Defense and has a weak arm. Kinda reminds me of Danny Wureful. GREAT pick vinnie. WONT MAKE THE ROSTER. Oh yea...just had HIP SURGERY...prolly be on IR all year anyway.
6) The last two were at the end of round seven...they are practically FAs.

So one draft, ten picks...maybe one of these guys make the roster, Maybe.

F'n retarded.[/quote]

2 identical WRs? Thomas is definitely faster and probably has more moves after the catch, while Kelly is a little bigger and has very good hands. If you think they are identical you need to do some more homework.

Davis >> any other backup TE we've got currently, and with Zorn planning on running plenty of 2 TE sets it's definitely not a wasted pick.

Why is it so crazy to think that Frost might get beat out by a guy that was the nation's top punter last year?

Brennan himself said he's 6 weeks away from being 100%. He's definitely not going to be out all year.

One of the 10 picks will make the roster? C'mon bro you're the one looking like the retard here.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

1 of 10. Never a statement of less sense has ever been posted on this site. Just...wow.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=Mattyk72;445212]Until we see these guys on the field and see how well they pick up the offense and how their skills translate to the NFL I don't think we can really be certain about anything. Plus there are aspects that we can't measure that are x factors here. Mainly their work ethics both on the field and in the film room.

In another thread I think you equated Thomas to Eddie Kennison and Kelly to Keyshawn Johnson. Sounds to me like you've told us how good you think they can be.[/quote]I said, that's really the upside of both those players, based on what they have done in college, combine, etc.

Best case scenario, that's what these guys are. Thats what the Redskins are drafting for. Those X factors that we can't quantify may prevent them from reaching their potential, and of course, they both might be busts. Who knows?

I hope we get what we were drafting for, I'm just skeptical.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

Okay, I've had time to digest and excrete my thoughts on the draft: B-

I remember driving to a friends house when I heard Thomas' name being called. It didn't help that I had to hear it from Cowterd on ESPN radio. My emotional transition went from stunned-->anger-->resignation-->anger-->numbness in about 10 minutes. Follow that up with the (at the time) perplexing Fred Davis pick and then Kelly, whom I did not want, and I was in for a rough night of heavy, heavy drinking.

Looking at the picks and the value that they bring to our team, I think we did pretty good. I totally understand the need for two pass-catching TE's. If Moss or randle El go down then Cerrato will look like a genius by picking up two NFL-ready wideouts. I'm not excited about any of the late rounders except Durant Brooks. Tryon looks like a Smoot protege' which is okay, I guess. I don't trust anybody from small schools, so Reinhart will have to prove something to me.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=GTripp0012;445201]Kelly started three years, came out as a junior.

The guys who start four years at a top college program and get picked high are the ones who lead the league in receiving every year. Torry Holt. Dwyane Bowe. Hines Ward. Javon Walker. Etc...

Kelly's issue was more of his speed. He's a Keyshawn Johnson type, it doesn't take a genius to see that. I mean, Keyshawn Johnson was very, very good for a long time. That's the best case scenario for Malcolm Kelly, who was productive multiple years in college.[/quote]

Not every NFL wr has to have 4.3 4.4 speed to be productive. Wouldn't you be happy if he becomes as good as Keyshawn? I would.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;445250]Okay, I've had time to digest and excrete my thoughts on the draft: B-

I remember driving to a friends house when I heard Thomas' name being called. It didn't help that I had to hear it from Cowterd on ESPN radio. My emotional transition went from stunned-->anger-->resignation-->anger-->numbness in about 10 minutes. Follow that up with the (at the time) perplexing Fred Davis pick and then Kelly, whom I did not want, and I was in for a rough night of heavy, heavy drinking.

Looking at the picks and the value that they bring to our team, I think we did pretty good. I totally understand the need for two pass-catching TE's. If Moss or randle El go down then Cerrato will look like a genius by picking up two NFL-ready wideouts. I'm not excited about any of the late rounders except Durant Brooks. Tryon looks like a Smoot protege' which is okay, I guess. I don't trust anybody from small schools, so Reinhart will have to prove something to me.[/quote]

LOL! You don't trust anyone from small schools?? If I went down the list of small school players that went on the become great NFL players we'd be here all day. But I'll give you one that's going into Canton this Aug. Darrell Green!

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=sbaughone;445216]F minus minus. I will elaborate on why grim4coach says vinnie and danny are retarded:

1) We took two identical WR's. Kelly is slow as molasses...4.78 40? DE's had better times.
2) We have a Pro Bowl TE. There's another roster spot that will go unused.
3) Rinehart & Tryon were both graded by most boards as seventh-round picks
4) We drafted a PUNTER??? Unbelievable. THERE IS NO WAY THIS GUY MAKES THE ROSTER. LET ME REPEAT: THERE IS NO WAY THIS GUY MAKES THE ROSTER.
5) Colt Brennan? Can't read a Defense and has a weak arm. Kinda reminds me of Danny Wureful. GREAT pick vinnie. WONT MAKE THE ROSTER. Oh yea...just had HIP SURGERY...prolly be on IR all year anyway.
6) The last two were at the end of round seven...they are practically FAs.

So one draft, ten picks...maybe one of these guys make the roster, Maybe.

F'n retarded.[/quote]

Do you know anything about football? Kelly was slow on his 40 time with no pads on. Big deal. When his pads were on during the games he seemed to get open quite often against top college players. The combine and pro days don't mean a damn thing cause they're not in pads.

And Thomas is not identical to Kelly at all. They're two different types of WR's. Thomas is more of a game breaker and Kelly is a possesion guy. Get your facts straight.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

<<One of the 10 picks will make the roster? C'mon bro you're the one looking like the retard here.>>

I'll be back in September when the roster's released...and we'll see who's laughing then. Buh Bye Vinnie. Your fate has been sealed.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=sbaughone;445279]<<One of the 10 picks will make the roster? C'mon bro you're the one looking like the retard here.>>

I'll be back in September when the roster's released...and we'll see who's laughing then. Buh Bye Vinnie. Your fate has been sealed.[/quote]

Great, looking forward to it.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

<<And Thomas is not identical to Kelly at all. They're two different types of WR's. Thomas is more of a game breaker and Kelly is a possesion guy. Get your facts straight.>>

All I know is this: They will not both make the team. Kelly is too slow without pads, too slow with. Enjoy your koolaid. Vinnie's tour as GM is effectively over.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=irish;445214]I dont think so. In fact I think WR was one of the areas where the Skins were in decent shape. I think O & D Line were way bigger needs than WR.[/quote]

How can you say this?? I had a problem taking two guys early and I agree that we need to address the lines. But there is no denying that we need to upgrade at wr. What has Santana done since 05? What has ARE ever done??

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;445201]Kelly started three years, came out as a junior.

The guys who start four years at a top college program and get picked high are the ones who lead the league in receiving every year. Torry Holt. Dwyane Bowe. Hines Ward. Javon Walker. Etc...

Kelly's issue was more of his speed. He's a Keyshawn Johnson type, it doesn't take a genius to see that. I mean, Keyshawn Johnson was very, very good for a long time. That's the best case scenario for Malcolm Kelly, who was productive multiple years in college.[/QUOTE]

And what about guys like Anquan Boldin, Chad Johnson, Steve Smith.

I think it's remarkable how you can predict best case scenarios

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;445282]How can you say this?? I had a problem taking two guys early and I agree that we need to address the lines. But there is no denying that we need to upgrade at wr. What has Santana done since 05? What has ARE ever done??[/QUOTE]

If anything this will only help Santana.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

I went B...I know they say they stayed to their board but if one of those 3 #2's was a highly rated D or O lineman I would have given them an A. I definitley like the way they traded down and got good value for their picks though.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

I have to give a solid B. We definately addressed our redzone offense and finally got at least one solid possession reciever. And with the TE, I really like it. This will make mismatches for opposing D's. That gives at least 5 solid recieving threats on the field at one time. And with a WC O, this is a great thing to have.

The punter could be a steal, the guy was the best punter in NCAA, and his kick average was substantionally better that Frost.

Colt Brennan, could be something in the future if JC doesn't develop into what we need. Overall I really like the strategy.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

good, solid b. it finally seems like the skins have a plan. it looks like its going to be an passing display in Washington, the way the skins loaded up on offensive options. other then both lines, the skins are fairly young at the skilled positions. next years draft has linemen written all over it

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

and pstylee, welcome to the board

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;445282]How can you say this?? I had a problem taking two guys early and I agree that we need to address the lines. But there is no denying that we need to upgrade at wr. What has Santana done since 05? What has ARE ever done??[/QUOTE]

Its hard for any WRs to do something when the QB is inexperienced and the line cant protect him.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=irish;445322]Its hard for any WRs to do something when the QB is inexperienced and the line cant protect him.[/QUOTE]

But don't you think healthy WRs that can get open will only help Campbell as he gains more experience.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;445327]But don't you think healthy WRs that can get open will only help Campbell as he gains more experience.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and I might have drafted 1 WR but not with my first pick.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=skinsfan69;445271]LOL! You don't trust anyone from small schools?? If I went down the list of small school players that went on the become great NFL players we'd be here all day. But I'll give you one that's going into Canton this Aug. Darrell Green![/quote]

Doesn't mean a small school player can't prove me wrong, many have. My point was I don't initially expect much from a player that college recruiters/head coaches also didn't expect much from. I think most would agree that the safer pick is one that plays at a school in which the competition is closer to the NFL level.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

I gave a B. I like the picks but like many folks would have liked to see more D line taken. A good job was done in selecting talent from each round. Immediate needs were not really addressed, big WR being the exception, but I see a lot of the future from these picks.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

It's real simple.
I hear Riggo singing the praises of the Skins recent draft. He re-iterates the apparent praises of the Skins draft from "Jaws". His next statement says it all regarding the negativity surrounding same.
"Non-football" people often make mistakes about such things............................well said

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

It's just really nice to hear some people giving the Skins credit. I'm a little nervous about some of the picks, but a lot of people in the know have good things to say.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;445327]But don't you think healthy WRs that can get open will only help Campbell as he gains more experience.[/QUOTE]

The problem is if the o-line can't protect JC to give him time to find the open receiver. The last thing we need is for JC to take a beating and have a major injury.

Great offensive lines are critical. An average receiver can get open if he has enough time. Most corners can cover any receiver if they know they only need to cover the guy for 3 seconds because that is all the time their defensive line will need to get to the QB. Of all fans we should know that with the Hogs. They could make any QB look good because they could sit back and wait for someone to get open. Before last year, Brady never really had a superstar WR but he had a great line and could just pick defenses apart. Superbowl time he got pressured and even with Moss he failed. Romo was lights out until his line got injured and he started getting pressured.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

The way some people talk here you'd think we didn't have Samuels, Kendall, Rabach, Thomas, and Jansen starting.

"But they're getting old, and can they stay healthy?" Fine, but it's not like ARE and Moss have found the fountain of youth or have shown a propensity to stay healthy.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;445417]The way some people talk here you'd think we didn't have Samuels, Kendall, Rabach, Thomas, and Jansen starting.

"But they're getting old, and can they stay healthy?" Fine, but it's not like ARE and Moss have found the fountain of youth or have shown a propensity to stay healthy.[/QUOTE]

Most great receivers can still play at about the same level once they hit 30+. That is not true in general for the offensive line since they are more prone to knee/leg injuries and it catches up to them. Jansen is great, but missed all of last year and who knows how he will be when he gets back. Thomas also missed most of last year. If you could guarantee these 5 will stay healthy all year then I would be happy, but the reality is that it is very doubtful they will.

I have no problems with the guys drafted and think they have potential. I just think Snyder was overzealous with wanting a big game receiver and put all his chips in one basket. I was happy with Thomas and thought trading down was a great move. I just think drafting a second TE and another receiver instead of a defensive or offensive lineman was iffy. Finding a second TE to play in those packages that require a second TE is not as critical as having a dependable lineman that plays every down IMO.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

Well until someone can prove their a better LT than Samuels, that job is his. Heyer and Alexander have a ways to go but they have plenty of promise. So do Rinehart and this guy they got from Appalachian State.

You've got to have some faith in Joe Bugel. He's proven himself for over two decades as a coach.

It doesn't matter if you have all day to throw if you have no one to throw to

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[quote=SmootSmack;445429]Well until someone can prove their a better LT than Samuels, that job is his. Heyer and Alexander have a ways to go but they have plenty of promise. So do Rinehart and this guy they got from Appalachian State.

You've got to have some faith in Joe Bugel. He's proven himself for over two decades as a coach.

It doesn't matter if you have all day to throw [B]if you have no one to throw[/B] to[/quote]It seems like in the last 48 hours your opinion of ARE and Moss has done a complete 180.

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

i voted B cause i think they did very well but not earth shattering but solid all in all..

Re: Overall Draft Grade for the Redskins
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;445431]It seems like in the last 48 hours your opinion of ARE and Moss has done a complete 180.[/QUOTE]

Explain