Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=12thMan;469423]Palin took office in December 2006. Not even two years to date.[/quote]


You say tomato, I say tomahto, what's the difference of few years between friends eh?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469425]You say tomato, I say tomahto, what's the difference of few years between friends eh?[/quote]

Exactly.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469420]Come now, you're saying she's more qualified/experienced than McCain or Obama to be president/vp?

What does it mean to be anti-abortion in the case of rape or incest? It's the most cruel thing I can imagine you can do to a woman after suffering a traumatic event. Oh "I know you have been raped/molest but you got to carry that child to term because [insert crazy religious reason]."

I was correct in my assessment but gentleman as I am I'll just say she is highly disagreeable.[/quote]
Not at all over McCain but Obama has no more experience than her that is relevant to me. In the end though I think experience is over-rated. No one has experience enough to do this job 100% right and piss 50% of the country.

I just thought your statement was somewhat intellectually dishonest. msheig made a better argument I think.

As to the question of abortion: pro-lifers are just that. They believe in life. A life is a life is a life to them. Killing a life is bad to them. (the previous statement should not be construed to be that of my own)

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=mheisig;469376]As politically brilliant as I think the selection is, I'm not buying the whole "it will sway Hillary voters" bit.

Anyone who was a Hillary supporter is going to have so many problems with Palin that the only thing Hillary and Palin will have in common is that they're both women.

If that fact alone is enough to completely ignore differences with respect to EVERY other area of policy and approach, then those voters could have been swayed with the promise of cupcakes and the Palin selection was unnecessary.

What I find funny is the reaction to this. Does anyone really expect die-hard Obama fans to suddenly change their position with the Palin selection? Please.

The selection really just fortifies his voting base and is a really good grab at a lot of the independent swing voters. Anyone expecting massive upheaval or for lifetime Democrats to suddenly vote Republican are sorely mistaken.[/quote]

I didn't say anything about a "massive upheaval" of Dem voters going Republican by virtue of this pick. What seems clear (certainly at this point) is that we're in store for another very close election. Independent voters, to a cliche-like extent, have been identified as key. But from the moment Obama was declared the winner of the D primary, the McCain campaign has identified pissed off Hillary voters as a potential source of some key swing votes, and they have not made any secret of that. Have they banked on getting all 18 million? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of those were cast by dyed-in-the-wool Dems who wouldn't be swayed by a Republican female VP candidate who shares, politically, almost nothing in common with them. But again, given the potentially very small margin of victory that the winner may have, McCain's camp has obviously considered that even a small percentage of Hillary primary voters could, in this election, make a huge difference.

Sure, Gov. Palin, as you say, may "solidify" McCain's base, but she was hardly the only VP candidate who could have. And given her very obvious lack of experience (putting aside for purposes of this point how that experience measures up to Obama's), she can't be said to have been the most experienced VP candidate either. She is also from a traditionally red state (Alaska went to Bush both times), so it's not like this pick was geared toward potentially picking off blue one. So, unless I'm being extremely unfair here, it appears that what the McCain camp liked most about the independently-but-not-comparatively talented Gov. Palin is that she is a woman. What's important about that, for purposes of this campaign? The pissed off Hillary, voters, that's what. The McCain camp is very aware of the very large turnout in the Dem primaries, and understands (as does everyone) that a lot of Hillary fans thought she got screwed, which is why such a big deal was made this past week about how much enthusiasm Hillary would exhibit for Obama in Denver.

Will Gov. Palin appeal to, along with the conservative base, some soccer moms, independents, and possibly a few "greens"? No doubt. But, my point is that what McCain is really after here is just a sliver of those disaffected Hillary voters, who, given their sheer numbers, would possibly make more of a numerical difference in yet another election that will probably be decided by a 1-2% margin.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=BringBackJoeT;469433]I didn't say anything about a "massive upheaval" of Dem voters going Republican by virtue of this pick. What seems clear (certainly at this point) is that we're in store for another very close election. Independent voters, to a cliche-like extent, have been identified as key. But from the moment Obama was declared the winner of the D primary, the McCain campaign has identified pissed off Hillary voters as a potential source of some key swing votes, and they have not made any secret of that. Have they banked on getting all 18 million? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of those were cast by dyed-in-the-wool Dems who wouldn't be swayed by a Republican female VP candidate who shares, politically, almost nothing in common with them. But again, given the potentially very small margin of victory that the winner may have, McCain's camp has obviously considered that even a small percentage of Hillary primary voters could, in this election, make a huge difference.

Sure, Gov. Palin, as you say, may "solidify" McCain's base, but she was hardly the only VP candidate who could have. And given her very obvious lack of experience (putting aside for purposes of this point how that experience measures up to Obama's), she can't be said to have been the most experienced VP candidate either. She is also from a traditionally red state (Alaska went to Bush both times), so it's not like this pick was geared toward potentially picking off blue one. So, unless I'm being extremely unfair here, it appears that what the McCain camp liked most about the independently-but-not-comparatively talented Gov. Palin is that she is a woman. What's important about that, for purposes of this campaign? The pissed off Hillary, voters, that's what. The McCain camp is very aware of the very large turnout in the Dem primaries, and understands (as does everyone) that a lot of Hillary fans thought she got screwed, which is why such a big deal was made this past week about how much enthusiasm Hillary would exhibit for Obama in Denver.

Will Gov. Palin appeal to, along with the conservative base, some soccer moms, independents, and possibly a few "greens"? No doubt. But, my point is that what McCain is really after here is just a sliver of those disaffected Hillary voters, who, given their sheer numbers, would possibly make more of a numerical difference in yet another election that will probably be decided by a 1-2% margin.[/quote]

Very sensible post. I think the big risk McCain assumes with this pick is that the remaining disaffected Hillary supporters, that are still out there, will remain upset for another two months. In my opinion, he is pre-supposing that their collective anger won't wear off and that they will hold that posture all the way until Novemeber 4th. That's one helluva gamble if you ask me. But the one question that Palan will have to unequicvocably answer is, are you ready to be Commander in Chief if put in that situation. Joe Biden, by virtue of his own bid for POTUS, has been vetted in that regard.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469393]If Obama is inexperienced, Palin is woefully inexperienced. How is McCain going to play the experience and national security card? Seriously, at 72 he has one foot in the grave and his VP was nothing more than a mayor of a small town one and half years ago. Palin is also batshit crazy...no abortion in case of rape and incest! She'll get the Hillary vote alright.



I'm looking forward to the VP debate.[/quote]

While it seems crazy that someone would be against abortion in case of rape and incest its really not that crazy when you think about how they feel. If a person believes that its a living baby (or what ever they call it) then they would believe this even if it is rap or incest and that makes sense. She does back her idea's with action as she gave birth to a baby with down sindrom (spelling). I read that around 80% of children found to have down cindrom are aborted. That hugh of a number really shocked me but that could be because a buddy has a child with this and I know he would have never even considered abortion.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

Well while this has been fun its slow at work and I'm going home. Good Day

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Buster;469265]She just gave an incredible speech and even gave credit to Ms. Clinton for furthering the progress of women. She told about her accomplishments of holding people accountable in government, her great experience and qualifications, and how her son joined the army.

She is infinitely more qualified than Obama with all of her executive experience and she has a strong set of morals on top of that. She;s a great speaker too and did nothing to trash her opponents.

McCain looks like a genius now.[/quote]

:lol:

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=FRPLG;469430]Not at all over McCain but Obama has no more experience than her that is relevant to me. In the end though I think experience is over-rated. No one has experience enough to do this job 100% right and piss 50% of the country.

I just thought your statement was somewhat intellectually dishonest. msheig made a better argument I think.

As to the question of abortion: pro-lifers are just that. They believe in life. A life is a life is a life to them. Killing a life is bad to them. (the previous statement should not be construed to be that of my own)[/quote]

Why is my statement intellectually dishonest? I simply said McCain can't play the experience and national security card he has been playing given his VP pick. I mean look at his ads. As I have said [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/23667-understanding-the-issues-education-3.html#post452350"]countless[/URL] [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/19492-senator-caught-trying-solicit-sex-mens-4.html#post347874"]times[/URL], I believe experience is overrated and overplayed. You can have all the experience in the world and still lack sound judgment and have poor policy.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=BringBackJoeT;469433]I didn't say anything about a "massive upheaval" of Dem voters going Republican by virtue of this pick. What seems clear (certainly at this point) is that we're in store for another very close election. Independent voters, to a cliche-like extent, have been identified as key. But from the moment Obama was declared the winner of the D primary, the McCain campaign has identified pissed off Hillary voters as a potential source of some key swing votes, and they have not made any secret of that. Have they banked on getting all 18 million? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of those were cast by dyed-in-the-wool Dems who wouldn't be swayed by a Republican female VP candidate who shares, politically, almost nothing in common with them. But again, given the potentially very small margin of victory that the winner may have, McCain's camp has obviously considered that even a small percentage of Hillary primary voters could, in this election, make a huge difference.

Sure, Gov. Palin, as you say, may "solidify" McCain's base, but she was hardly the only VP candidate who could have. And given her very obvious lack of experience (putting aside for purposes of this point how that experience measures up to Obama's), she can't be said to have been the most experienced VP candidate either. She is also from a traditionally red state (Alaska went to Bush both times), so it's not like this pick was geared toward potentially picking off blue one. So, unless I'm being extremely unfair here, it appears that what the McCain camp liked most about the independently-but-not-comparatively talented Gov. Palin is that she is a woman. What's important about that, for purposes of this campaign? The pissed off Hillary, voters, that's what. The McCain camp is very aware of the very large turnout in the Dem primaries, and understands (as does everyone) that a lot of Hillary fans thought she got screwed, which is why such a big deal was made this past week about how much enthusiasm Hillary would exhibit for Obama in Denver.

Will Gov. Palin appeal to, along with the conservative base, some soccer moms, independents, and possibly a few "greens"? No doubt. But, my point is that what McCain is really after here is just a sliver of those disaffected Hillary voters, who, given their sheer numbers, would possibly make more of a numerical difference in yet another election that will probably be decided by a 1-2% margin.[/quote]

I think I agree with you in principle, I may just not agree as to the margin.

I simply can't fathom of an individual who would have voted for Hillary who would now vote for Palin. Again, the only "issue" they remotely have in common is that they're both women.

Again, I'm sure their may be a small number of people who would go from Hillary to Palin solely on that basis, but my gut feeling is the number is so infintesimally small that even in a close race (which I agree it will be) it wouldn't matter. I can't imagine that number being in the tens of thousands, let alone millions.

I suppose if the race gets down to one candidate winning by a margin of a few thousand votes than maybe it will be important, but even when elections are close they're not THAT close.

You never know though - we'll only know when the whole thing is said and done come November.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

Yeah, i think the only voters who go from Clinton to McCain will most likely do so out of spite for the (in their mind) slights Hillary took from Obama.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

This election is probably not going to be as close as some people think. If the conservative base stayed home in November(McCain has always struggled to appeal to Evangelicals and the like) the election might have been a landslide. This choice just gets the conservative Christian vote solidified so that the GOP doesn't get completely embarrased. The GOP doesn't have a chance to win IMO. They just need to keep it close.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=wilsowilso;469458]This election is probably not going to be as close as some people think. If the conservative base stayed home in November(McCain has always struggled to appeal to Evangelicals and the like) the election might have been a landslide. This choice just gets the conservative Christian vote solidified so that the GOP doesn't get completely embarrased. [B]The GOP doesn't have a chance to win IMO. They just need to keep it close.[/B][/quote]
Not so fast my friend.....

[URL="http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/"]War Room - Salon.com[/URL]

You're right on about the conservative Christian vote, but the rest of your analysis is way off.

[URL="http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/26/clinton.backers/"]Angry Clinton supporters toast McCain, roast Obama - CNN.com[/URL]

[URL="http://hillarysupportersformccain.blogspot.com/2008/05/gov-sarah-palin-presidential-material.html"]Hillary Supporters for McCain: Gov. Sarah Palin: Presidential Material[/URL]

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/29/ha_say_the_online_hillary_supp.html"]Ha! Say the Online Hillary Supporters | The Trail | washingtonpost.com[/URL]

The first article is from CNN (no bastion of conservatism) and these numbers don't bode well for Obama, "But there is some bad news for Obama. The poll showed that 66 percent of Clinton supporters -- registered Democrats who want Clinton as the nominee -- are now backing Obama. That's down from 75 percent in the end of June. Twenty-seven percent of them now say they'll support McCain, up from 16 percent in late June."

Let's look at those numbers. Hillary was claiming approximately 18 million votes in the primary, for the sake of being conservative (pun intended), let's say it was only 10 million. Now polls are showing approximately 27% are favoring McCain, not staying home, favoring McCain. Being conservative again, let's say the real number is 20%, that translates into 2 million votes for McCain that are coming from the Democrat base. That is a 4 million vote swing. If those votes are in battleground areas (very likely) the media will be forecasting McCain the winner before midnight on election night.

This was before McCain's VP pick of Palin. I know the other links are just blogs, but I think many are underestimating the Hillary effect. IMO McCain will win, largely due to support from Hillary supporters (or non-support of them for Obama). It will be similar to Bill Clinton's win over Bush I, where Perot took enough of the conservative votes to allow Clinton to win.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;469476]This was before McCain's VP pick of Palin. I know the other links are just blogs, but I think many are underestimating the Hillary effect. IMO McCain will win, largely due to support from Hillary supporters (or non-support of them for Obama). It will be similar to Bill Clinton's win over Bush I, where Perot took enough of the conservative votes to allow Clinton to win.[/quote]

Obama doesn't at all need the support of these so called Hillary Clinton supporters. These are supporters from the primary election season(the tracking will change for the general election seeing as how many states allowed Republicans to actually vote in Democratic primaries). Voters that are upset enough that Clinton didn't win the nomination that they would actually cross party lines and or vote for a woman who quite literally is on the exact opposite side of the aisle on just about every major issue are actually just voters who were part of the GOP base to begin with. The only reason they were going to vote for a Democrat was simply because Hillary was a woman. It's all about core issues and the number of so called "Hillary effect" defectors that are actually true democrats who would completely disregard whatever issues are most important to their everyday lives just because they are bitter is not going to be very dramatic IMO.

Also, the choice of Palin(pro life) basically guarantees that anyone in those polls who's got concerns about the core issue that a woman should have the right to choose will vote for Obama. No matter how mad you might be nobody's giving up basic constitutionally protected rights just to prove a point.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

What will be interesting to see, is will the Hilary supporters support Palin ,after Hilary starts to slam Palin? If I was the Dems, I would send Hilary after her.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469448]Why is my statement intellectually dishonest? I simply said McCain can't play the experience and national security card he has been playing given his VP pick. I mean look at his ads. As I have said [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/23667-understanding-the-issues-education-3.html#post452350"]countless[/URL] [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/19492-senator-caught-trying-solicit-sex-mens-4.html#post347874"]times[/URL], I believe experience is overrated and overplayed. You can have all the experience in the world and still lack sound judgment and
have poor policy.[/quote]

Experience generally becomes unimportant when one does not have any. I wonder would you select your surgeon on this basis as well?

Why are we comparing the experience level of the Obama, and Palin? Compare Obama to Mccain, and Biden to Palin if necessary. Anything else is meaningless

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Hog1;469495]Experience generally becomes unimportant when one does not have any. [B]I wonder would you select your surgeon on this basis as well?
[/B]
Why are we comparing the experience level of the Obama, and Palin? Compare Obama to Mccain, and Biden to Palin if necessary. Anything else is meaningless[/quote]

It depends, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Adams"]Jan Adams[/URL] has experience but you wouldn't want him cutting your nails much less operate on you. Point is experience is nice but it doesn't tell you much. I routinely interview candidates and they all have all sorts of fancy experience on their resume but the truth is while you can bullshit me with your resume you certainly can't bullshit me on the white-board.

Is it really that hard to understand my position or what I have written? McCain is the one playing the experience card...McCain effectively took the experience card off the table with the Palin pick seeing how he is a dead man walking. Really simple.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469498]Is it really that hard to understand my position or what I have written? McCain is the one playing the experience card...McCain effectively took the experience card off the table with the Palin pick seeing how he is a dead man walking. Really simple.[/quote]

And yet, the selection of Biden by Obama does not remove the "Change Card" even though Biden is backed by two of the most powerful insider lobbying powers - big labor and trial lawyers. And sorry, don't give me the dead man walking routine in today's world of extended living. (not extended survival -extended living. We are past the days of "shove em in a home at 70")

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469498]It depends, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Adams"]Jan Adams[/URL] has experience but you wouldn't want him cutting your nails much less operate on you. Point is experience is nice but it doesn't tell you much. I routinely interview candidates and they all have all sorts of fancy experience on their resume but the truth is while you can bullshit me with your resume you certainly can't bullshit me on the white-board.

Is it really that hard to understand my position or what I have written? McCain is the one playing the experience card...McCain effectively took the experience card off the table with the Palin pick seeing how he is a dead man walking. Really simple.[/quote]

No it is not difficult to understand your point. The political machinery on both sdes of the fence is in high gear searching out percieved weakness, and the exploitation of same.
I am not sure if "experience" trumps "change" or not. Your call
Ideally, we need a leader that possess's experience, judgement, etc, etc. While I am impressed with neither, I will end up voting for the one who I[I] feel will do the least damage[/I]

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;469501]And yet, the selection of Biden by Obama does not remove the "Change Card" even though Biden is backed by two of the most powerful insider lobbying powers - big labor and trial lawyers. And sorry, don't give me the dead man walking routine in today's world of extended living. (not extended survival -extended living. We are past the days of "shove em in a home at 70")[/quote]

What does change mean to you? For me, it's change in policy and direction. Remove the change card...which means what? He's a typical politician? His policies will be no different than that of Republicans? He's just looking to get elected?

[URL="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html#People"]According to the CIA[/URL] the mean life expectancy for males is 75.29 years. There's a good chance McCain might not make it through his first term. He has roughly 50/50 chance though his cancer complicates things. Oh never mind, I'm sure he has great genes and he'll get the best care money can buy to extend his life.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Hog1;469514]No it is not difficult to understand your point. The political machinery on both sdes of the fence is in high gear searching out percieved weakness, and the exploitation of same.
[B]I am not sure if "experience" trumps "change" or not.[/B] Your call
Ideally, we need a leader that possess's experience, judgement, etc, etc. While I am impressed with neither, [B]I will end up voting for the one who I[I] feel will do the least damage[/I][/B][/quote]

Experience vs Change? What does that mean?

Qualify [I]"least damage[/I]."

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469527]Experience vs Change? What does that mean?

Qualify [I]"least damage[/I]."[/quote]
Mccain's platform of experience
Obama's platform of change

Least damage=least damage done to our country by either of our prospective Presidents
IMO it is a shame this is the best we can field.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=mheisig;469305]The script goes something like this:

[B]Obama:[/B] "We need change! Change, and hope!"

[B]General Audience:[/B] "Sounds good! But what kind of change? What are we changing TO?"

[B]Obama:[/B] "Just change. And hope too, don't forget the hope."

[B]Liberals:[/B] "Can't argue with that, change is good! Long as we go somewhere, who cares where it is, right?"

[B]Conservatives:[/B] "Change is scary. That nice looking old white man looks more reliable."

[B]Obama:[/B] "pssst...change! (and hope)"

[B]McCain:[/B] [I]Unavailable. Currently having some soldering work done on his iron lung.[/I]

[B]Obama:[/B] "We're hopeful FOR change! And the change will bring us hope!"

[B]General Audience:[/B] "I don't know, still not sure what's changing or what it's changing to.

[B]Liberals:[/B] "YEAH! We'll just hope that the change takes us where we want to go! We'll hammer out the specifics later."

[B]Conservatives:[/B] [I]Unavailable. Too embarrassed to comment.[/I]

[B]McCain:[/B] "I'll give you change! How does a 44-year old woman as VP sound?!"

[B]Obama:[/B] "Um...well, we don't really want THAT kind of change."

[B]General Audience:[/B] "So what kind of change is good?"

[B]Obama:[/B] "Don't know, but we know it's not that kind of change. It's change, just different."

[B]Liberals:[/B] "Woohoo! Change! And hope!"

[B]Conservatives:[/B] "Yowza! She's hot AND she's got a gun!"[/quote]Greatest. Post. Ever.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469393]Palin is also batshit crazy...no abortion in case of rape and incest![/quote]I'm not a hard line pro lifer in the slightest, but do explain why this is a "batshit crazy" position given the implication from the religious right that Abortion is a form of Murder.

Given that implication, the next step in logic tells us that two moral wrongs would not make a right.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469517][URL="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html#People"]According to the CIA[/URL] the mean life expectancy for males is 75.29 years.[/quote]Don't forget to mention that the mean life expectancy for any male who lives to (at least) age 72 is much higher than that.

This is not a whole lot different from arguing that the mean football team finishes 8-8, so the 7-3 Colts have little chance at the playoffs.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469517]
[URL="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html#People"]According to the CIA[/URL] the mean life expectancy for males is 75.29 years. There's a good chance McCain might not make it through his first term. He has roughly 50/50 chance though his cancer complicates things. Oh never mind, I'm sure he has great genes and he'll get the best care money can buy to extend his life.[/quote]

Poor math, Saden.

If you were asking what is the life expectancy of a male baby born today, the answer would be 75.29 years. But we're not, we're asking what is the life expectancy of a 72 year old who has a healthy heart, is not and has never been overweight, who eats healthily and gets exercise.

The life expectancy on a person with that profile is a lot higher than 75.29.

Life expectancy stats factor in the chances of someone being shot in the head, dying in a car accident, eating like crap and clogging their heart, drinking heavily, etcetera etcetera. Given that McCain does none of those things, those factors go out of the equation for him, and the LE number goes up.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=GTripp0012;469554]I'm not a hard line pro lifer in the slightest, but do explain why this is a "batshit crazy" position given the implication from the religious right that Abortion is a form of Murder.

Given that implication, the next step in logic tells us that two moral wrongs would not make a right.[/quote]

Oh that explains it. She's a pro-life Christian so it's OK to have vulgar and unreasonable religious beliefs?

Two wrongs? What is wrong is imposing your religious beliefs on others through legislative means.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=GTripp0012;469555]Don't forget to mention that the mean life expectancy for any male who lives to (at least) age 72 is much higher than that.

This is not a whole lot different from arguing that the mean football team finishes 8-8, so the 7-3 Colts have little chance at the playoffs.[/quote]

McCain is the Colts? Couldn't he be the 6-3 Lions or 10-6 Browns?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Schneed10;469557]Poor math, Saden.

If you were asking what is the life expectancy of a male baby born today, the answer would be 75.29 years. But we're not, we're asking what is the life expectancy of a 72 year old who has a healthy heart, is not and has never been overweight, who eats healthily and gets exercise.

The life expectancy on a person with that profile is a lot higher than 75.29.

Life expectancy stats factor in the chances of someone being shot in the head, dying in a car accident, eating like crap and clogging their heart, drinking heavily, etcetera etcetera. Given that McCain does none of those things, those factors go out of the equation for him, and the LE number goes up.[/quote]

I am wrong in my assessment. He he has better chance of making it out of his first term than I gave him credit.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469560]Oh that explains it. She's a pro-life Christian so it's OK to have vulgar and unreasonable religious beliefs?

Two wrongs? What is wrong is imposing your religious beliefs on others through legislative means.[/quote]

What's vulgar and unreasonable to you could be simple common sense to someone else, and to argue that your position should be considered the higher authority in all disagreements is beyond ignorant, it would be arrogant and utterly pathetic.

Which is why, to avoid such a situation, I feel you would be wise to master the skill of arguing based on implications. If the implication is "abortion=murder" (which is something I don't even necessarily agree with, but a lot of very intelligent people do), then you can't act like the people who believe this are inherently wrong. To do so would be batshit crazy.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=GTripp0012;469564]What's vulgar and unreasonable to you could be simple common sense to someone else, and to argue that your position should be considered the higher authority in all disagreements is beyond ignorant, it would be arrogant and utterly pathetic.

Which is why, to avoid such a situation, I feel you would be wise to master the skill of arguing based on implications. If the implication is "abortion=murder" (which is something I don't even necessarily agree with, but a lot of very intelligent people do), then you can't act like the people who believe this are inherently wrong. To do so would be batshit crazy.[/quote]

I'm sharing my views. I know where pro-lifers stand and they know where I stand. What are you expecting from me? I'm I suppose to agree with them, understand their position, reason with them? I'm tired of their stupidness and I won't tolerate it. There's no middle ground when it comes to abortion in the case rape/incests. None whatsoever!

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=GTripp0012;469564]What's vulgar and unreasonable to you could be simple common sense to someone else, and to argue that your position should be considered the higher authority in all disagreements is beyond ignorant, it would be arrogant and utterly pathetic.

Which is why, to avoid such a situation, I feel you would be wise to master the skill of arguing based on implications. If the implication is "abortion=murder" (which is something I don't even necessarily agree with, but a lot of very intelligent people do), then you can't act like the people who believe this are inherently wrong. To do so would be batshit crazy.[/quote]
Great post.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469565]I'm sharing my views. I know where pro-lifers stand and they know where I stand. What are you expecting from me? I'm I suppose to agree with them, understand their position, reason with them? I'm tired of their stupidness and I won't tolerate it. There's no middle ground when it comes to abortion in the case rape/incests. None whatsoever![/quote]
Yeah, those damn stupid, batshit crazy, pro-lifers, there's no reasoning with or understanding them. But we should negotiate unconditionally with a head of state that advocates "wiping another country off the face of the earth" (Ahmadenijad sp. / Israel). Iran's really a small country anyway and poses no real threats.....

I find it very strange that many (not all) on the far left in this country hate those on the right more than evil and brutal people who would commit mass genocide if they had the ability to do so. And it's normally those on the right who advocate a strong U.S. military which keeps people like Ahmadenijad in check.

I also wonder if you believe there's any middle ground on the partial birth abortion issue.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;469576]Yeah, those damn stupid, batshit crazy, pro-lifers, there's no reasoning with or understanding them. [B]But we should negotiate unconditionally with a head of state that advocates "wiping another country off the face of the earth" (Ahmadenijad sp. / Israel). Iran's really a small country anyway and poses no real threats[/B].....

I find it very strange that many (not all) on the far left in this country hate those on the right more than evil and brutal people who would commit mass genocide if they had the ability to do so. And it's normally those on the right who advocate a strong U.S. military which keeps people like Ahmadenijad in check.

I also wonder if you believe there's any middle ground on the partial birth abortion issue.[/quote]

What are you saying, since I don't like them and I disagree with them I should be able to go out there and shoot them in the face? Bomb them to submission? What is there to negotiate? At least with respect to Iran there room for negotiation. With Iran I can negotiate with them by offering to help them build clean energy power plants in return for giving up nuclear aspiration. Hell, I can even offer to build and maintain their nuclear plants. What do I have to offer pro-lifers? Make abortion illegal in odd years?

My stance on partial birth abortion is [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/18429-sggs-whats-your-issue-poll.html#post314417"]very clear[/URL].

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Mattyk72;469195]The horndog vote huh. That's really something to strive for. But then again I'm sure it will work especially for those southern repub bubbas :doh:[/quote]
Careful Matty, your democrat is showing. I always find it ironic that libs call us "southern repub bubbas". Or even worse: racist, sexist, fearmonger, homophob, etc. I think that those labels apply to dems too. But, I refuse to call names, because that was the way I was raised.

I just wish people would judge content of character, and not predetermined stereotypes, and skin color. Isn't that what MLKjr. talked about in his "I have a dream speech"?

My politics are formed by some basic principles and beliefs. I support those who hold those same ideas as me regardless of race and gender.

I'm pretty sure that Republicans who feel that our country is something to be proud of, and is not a hateful or a mean place to be. Why would so many people from so many different countries want to emigrate here and proudly be called American citizens? Now I'm not saying that this country is perfect, but compared to the rest of the world, this is where life is good, and if you work hard your dreams can become a reality. I have been over-seas and have experienced different cultures, so I do have something to compare to. There is no other country that is as diverse as ours. And there is a reason for that.

What I have against the Obamas is this: His associations with America hating people that he sorrounds himself with (Rev. Wright, William Ayers, to name a few). And how he intends to govern. He wants to redistribute the wealth of our great nation. The last time I checked, this is a capitalist nation where if you work hard, your dreams can become true. I think that if this government starts handing out checks on the 1st and 15th to people who aren't as ambitious as those who want to go out and earn a descent and honest living will ultimately doom us as a great nation.

Maybe I have a little too much appreciation for this country and the things that it stands for. It just pisses me off to hear people talk down about this country and try to tear it down like it's broken or something. We need change, change to what? Socialism? I don't know what he wants to change or have hope for, because he really hasn't specified.

Now to talk about the thread title, do I think that McCain's choice is political? You bet. I'm very certain that he is trying to get the Hillary cast-offs. But, I judge this pick as a solid choice for several reasons. If you just take a look and compare the accomplishments of Palin to Obama. I think you will see that she has done more for her constituents in deeds than rehtoric. You can disagree with her politics, but don't discredit what she has done in politics. Oh, and Matty, Palin is way hotter than Michell Obama. As we say down here "git-r-done McCain"!

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469565]I'm sharing my views. I know where pro-lifers stand and they know where I stand. What are you expecting from me? I'm I suppose to agree with them, understand their position, reason with them? [B]I'm tired of their stupidness and I won't tolerate it.[/B] There's no middle ground when it comes to abortion in the case rape/incests. None whatsoever![/quote]Yeah, well, consider this the reason I responded to you in an issue I don't feel particularly strongly on.

What I'm not telling you is this: don't share your views. I do think your extreme liberal views contribute a viewpoint to the Parking Lot that improves the overall quality of the discussion.

What I am telling you is: don't be so goddamn arrogant on moral issues. The other side isn't always retarded. In fact, some of them can make rather intelligent arguments. If your only goal in stating your opinion is to try to irritate people who feel strongly the other way...then I really wish you would take it somewhere else. I don't understand the "I'm not going to take it anymore" crap. Where have you been wronged?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=4mrusmc;469582]Careful Matty, your democrat is showing. I always find it ironic that libs call us "southern repub bubbas". Or even worse: racist, sexist, fearmonger, homophob, etc. I think that those labels apply to dems too. But, I refuse to call names, because that was the way I was raised.

I just wish people would judge content of character, and not predetermined stereotypes, and skin color. Isn't that what MLKjr. talked about in his "I have a dream speech"?

My politics are formed by some basic principles and beliefs. I support those who hold those same ideas as me regardless of race and gender.

I'm pretty sure that Republicans who feel that our country is something to be proud of, and is not a hateful or a mean place to be. Why would so many people from so many different countries want to emigrate here and proudly be called American citizens? Now I'm not saying that this country is perfect, but compared to the rest of the world, this is where life is good, and if you work hard your dreams can become a reality. I have been over-seas and have experienced different cultures, so I do have something to compare to. There is no other country that is as diverse as ours. And there is a reason for that.

What I have against the Obamas is this: His associations with America hating people that he sorrounds himself with (Rev. Wright, William Ayers, to name a few). And how he intends to govern. He wants to redistribute the wealth of our great nation. The last time I checked, this is a capitalist nation where if you work hard, your dreams can become true. I think that if this government starts handing out checks on the 1st and 15th to people who aren't as ambitious as those who want to go out and earn a descent and honest living will ultimately doom us as a great nation.

Maybe I have a little too much appreciation for this country and the things that it stands for. It just pisses me off to hear people talk down about this country and try to tear it down like it's broken or something. We need change, change to what? Socialism? I don't know what he wants to change or have hope for, because he really hasn't specified.

Now to talk about the thread title, do I think that McCain's choice is political? You bet. I'm very certain that he is trying to get the Hillary cast-offs. But, I judge this pick as a solid choice for several reasons. If you just take a look and compare the accomplishments of Palin to Obama. I think you will see that she has done more for her constituents in deeds than rehtoric. You can disagree with her politics, but don't discredit what she has done in politics. Oh, and Matty, Palin is way hotter than Michell Obama. As we say down here "git-r-done McCain"![/quote]

Great Post!
4mrusmc for President!

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;469578]At least with respect to Iran there room for negotiation. With Iran I can negotiate with them by offering to help them build clean energy power plants in return for giving up nuclear aspiration. Hell, I can even offer to build and maintain their nuclear plants.[/quote]

What has our 'negotiation' gained so far? We give, they take. Soon they will have secured billions in Jizya, further funding a bloated elite ruling system and kept their poor marginalized and ignorant.

You cannot and should not negotiate with a Theocracy, it's clearly idiotic.

Cut them off from the rest of civilization. Their people will revolt due to ethnic divide and their current [I]'Hate the West, just ignore the Ayatollah behind the curtain[/I]' bullshit will bring them down.

Thread Hell yet?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=4mrusmc;469582]Careful Matty, your democrat is showing. I always find it ironic that libs call us "southern repub bubbas". Or even worse: racist, sexist, fearmonger, homophob, etc. I think that those labels apply to dems too. But, I refuse to call names, because that was the way I was raised.

I just wish people would judge content of character, and not predetermined stereotypes, and skin color. Isn't that what MLKjr. talked about in his "I have a dream speech"?

My politics are formed by some basic principles and beliefs. I support those who hold those same ideas as me regardless of race and gender.

I'm pretty sure that Republicans who feel that our country is something to be proud of, and is not a hateful or a mean place to be. Why would so many people from so many different countries want to emigrate here and proudly be called American citizens? Now I'm not saying that this country is perfect, but compared to the rest of the world, this is where life is good, and if you work hard your dreams can become a reality. I have been over-seas and have experienced different cultures, so I do have something to compare to. There is no other country that is as diverse as ours. And there is a reason for that.

What I have against the Obamas is this: His associations with America hating people that he sorrounds himself with (Rev. Wright, William Ayers, to name a few). And how he intends to govern. He wants to redistribute the wealth of our great nation. The last time I checked, this is a capitalist nation where if you work hard, your dreams can become true. I think that if this government starts handing out checks on the 1st and 15th to people who aren't as ambitious as those who want to go out and earn a descent and honest living will ultimately doom us as a great nation.

Maybe I have a little too much appreciation for this country and the things that it stands for. It just pisses me off to hear people talk down about this country and try to tear it down like it's broken or something. We need change, change to what? Socialism? I don't know what he wants to change or have hope for, because he really hasn't specified.

Now to talk about the thread title, do I think that McCain's choice is political? You bet. I'm very certain that he is trying to get the Hillary cast-offs. But, I judge this pick as a solid choice for several reasons. If you just take a look and compare the accomplishments of Palin to Obama. I think you will see that she has done more for her constituents in deeds than rehtoric. You can disagree with her politics, but don't discredit what she has done in politics. Oh, and Matty, Palin is way hotter than Michell Obama. As we say down here "git-r-done McCain"![/quote]

There is possibly no way -- no way -- you can compare Palin's accomplishments to Obama's. He spent eight years in the U.S. Senate, a district nearly twenty times as big as the city Palin mayored. But beyond whatever resume points and experience arguments we can make, the real point is this. Obama has made his case, laid out his vision and plans for the country, participated in over twenty debates, and has been thoroughly vetted for the past nineteen months before the American people. Eighteen million of them, by the way, felt he had the goods. And we won't mention the incredible campaign he has run.I will give you, however, that Palin is hotter than Michelle:)

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=12thMan;469601]There is possibly no way -- no way -- you can compare Palin's accomplishments to Obama's. [B]He spent eight years in the U.S. Senate[/B], a district nearly twenty times as big as the city Palin mayored. [/quote]This is false. Obama was elected to the Senate in 2004, taking Peter Fitzgerald's seat. Those four years of course include the time he spent campaigning for president, as opposed to attending the Senate meetings.

I think you probably meant the Illinois State Senate, in which case, my only beef is acting like he had [I]control [/I]over anything.