Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506938]campbell gets a media pass, just like Michael Vick, Donavan McNabb....no offense to anyone but black quarterbacks get a pass cause everyone wants to see one be sucessful.[/quote]

Rush? Is that you?

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

That is racist, ignorant at best.

What about Culpepper, Leftwich, Tony Banks, Brooks, etc.? They've lost jobs really quick when things went sour. It had nothing to do with a media pass, if anything the media was all over them.

But yea I see how it easy to ignore those. :doh:

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=hooskins;506949]That is racist, ignorant at best.

What about Culpepper, Leftwich, Tony Banks, Brooks, etc.? They've lost jobs really quick when things went sour. It had nothing to do with a media pass, if anything the media was all over them.

But yea I see how it easy to ignore those. :doh:[/quote]
Not racist at all.....Aaron Brooks was allowed to be mediocre for years..Leftwich was the same......A little more time is given.....Eli was being thrown to the dumpster by critics last year.......The media wants a successful black quarterback, if its not why is it such a big deal Doug Williams was the first back QB to win a super bowl.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506951]Not racist at all.....Aaron Brooks was allowed to be mediocre for years..Leftwich was the same......A little more time is given.....Eli was being thrown to the dumpster by critics last year.......The media wants a successful black quarterback, if its not why is it such a big deal Doug Williams was the first back QB to win a super bowl.[/quote]

Brooks had some great years in NO, Leftwich was benched even when people said he was ok, so I dont know what you are talking about.

Also maybe the media reflects society(just a crazy idea), and the American people where happy barriers were broken so a black QB could win a SB. Maybe you weren't too thrilled but the rest of America was pleased to see that.

But no I guess media is a just a bunch of liberal loonies.....

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506951]Not racist at all.....Aaron Brooks was allowed to be mediocre for years..Leftwich was the same......A little more time is given.....Eli was being thrown to the dumpster by critics last year.......The media wants a successful black quarterback, [B]if its not why is it such a big deal Doug Williams was the first back QB to win a super bowl[/B].[/quote]

Because he was the first. It's the same reason why Obama being elected is a big deal.

I don't buy this garbage that the media wants a successful black QB, there are plenty of them already.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

how about Ramsey, a white QB who got a ton of time here even though he sucked. Seriously dont give me this bull, there are soo many white QBs who get 2nd chances. It's really case by case, but I doubt I can convince you that if you would even mention something like this..

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506938]campbell gets a media pass, just like Michael Vick, Donavan McNabb....no offense to anyone but black quarterbacks get a pass cause everyone wants to see one be sucessful.[/quote]

He gets "a pass" because rational people can see he shouldn't be taking all the blame that he is, and he certainly hasn't played himself out of a job. And basically benching him at this point is seriously retarded.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;506823]It's funny, I have yet to hear a columnist, former or current Redskin, league observer, etc. call for Campbell to be benched. It's telling that the only people who are calling for his head are fans.[/quote]

This is a good point, however the only person that JC has to impress is Zorn. If Zorn thinks JC has the skills to be our long-term QB, then he will keep playing him through this year and next.

I think the calls for a QB change are premature. He's earned the chance to prove himself for this entire season.

However, those that say he should get ALL of [I]next[/I] season are wrong also. No QB gets five seasons to showcase their talents. If the team did that and then had to release Jason, then we'd enter the 2010 season with no idea of our QB situation.

If JC can't improve his overall QB rating into the 90 or above range (elite QB range) by the end of this season, the QB controversy will increase starting next pre-season.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=hooskins;506956]how about Ramsey, a white QB who got a ton of time here even though he sucked. Seriously dont give me this bull, there are soo many white QBs who get 2nd chances. It's really case by case, but I doubt I can convince you that if you would even mention something like this..[/quote]
First of all, i am black....second ramsey the same guy who got taken out after 1 game by gibbs. The media loves to mention race in any form they can. racism is created by the media....the blow it out of the water....minority coaches, quarterbacks......all im saying is you will not here alot of media screaming to take out campbell(they try to remain as PC as possible)

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

It's got nothing to do with skin color. This is just getting ridiculous.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=hooskins;506956]how about Ramsey, a white QB who got a ton of time here even though he sucked. Seriously dont give me this bull, there are soo many white QBs who get 2nd chances. It's really case by case, but I doubt I can convince you that if you would even mention something like this..[/quote]

Ramsey got 27 games.

Jason is on game #33 or so. However, Jason has shown more potential than Ramsey ever did. That's why the team will continue him as the starting QB throughout this season. By next season though the calls for other QBs to start will increase.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506959]First of all, i am black....second ramsey the same guy who got taken out after 1 game by gibbs. The media loves to mention race in any form they can. racism is created by the media....the blow it out of the water....minority coaches, quarterbacks......all im saying is you will not here alot of media screaming to take out campbell(they try to remain as PC as possible)[/quote]

So being black is an excuse for horribly ignorant comments? I don't see your point.

Are you saying if Ramsey was black, Gibbs would have kept him in the game? I'm not even going to tell you why the media hasn't called for Campbell's head, because it's in plain sight all over this website.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

Ramsey got hosed by Gibbs. He looked promising in 03 and 04. Gibbs wanted to play his boyfriend Brunnel. Ramsey never got a fair chance.

This is only JC's 2nd full season, first with Zorn. Unless he starts regressing I don't think sticking with him for another 2 seasons before you make a judgement is absurd.

Look at M. Hasseback, Eli...both took time to develope.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506959]First of all, i am black....second ramsey the same guy who got taken out after 1 game by gibbs. The media loves to mention race in any form they can. racism is created by the media....the blow it out of the water....minority coaches, quarterbacks......all im saying is you will not here alot of media screaming to take out campbell(they try to remain as PC as possible)[/quote]

That is one of the weakest arguments I've ever heard. No one gives a sh*t about his skin color.

Have you seen the way Donovan McNabb gets treated?? Philly media and fans call for his head after every underthrown pass. Then the ESPN's of the world take the local stuff and give it national attention. "Will McNabb be traded? Is he done in Philly" has been said at least once a year for the past few seasons. He's been that team's #1 scapegoat since he was booed on draft day.

That example alone craps all over the race argument.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=maroonandblack30;506964]Ramsey got hosed by Gibbs. He looked promising in 03 and 04. Gibbs wanted to play his boyfriend Brunnel. Ramsey never got a fair chance.

This is only JC's 2nd full season, first with Zorn. Unless he starts regressing I don't think sticking with him for another 2 seasons before you make a judgement is absurd.

Look at M. Hasseback, Eli...both took time to develope.[/quote]

Not to go off-topic, but my only question regarding Ramsey is this:

if he was so good and was unfairly dumped by a HOF coach then why didn't he succeed when he went to other teams?

Campbell's QB rating HAS been dropping this second half of the season - just like it did last year. He has been let down by his WR, OL, etc. He's got this season; after that his position as starter will be more tenuous.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

I wish everyone would stop picking out a point here and a point here out of my arguement.....i will sum it up again......campbell is going to be a good QB, wrong system and wrong mechanics will hold him up here.........the skin color thing was in refrence to the media(they will be more PC)in attacking a black quarterback.....Washington fans as a whole are very critical of their QBs, always have, always will...How many years do we have to wait on this guy to learn to read defenses,improve his mechanics,stop fumbling...its just insane in my opinion he is getting this much patience.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506951]Not racist at all.....Aaron Brooks was allowed to be mediocre for years..Leftwich was the same......A little more time is given.....Eli was being thrown to the dumpster by critics last year.......The media wants a successful black quarterback, if its not why is it such a big deal Doug Williams was the first back QB to win a super bowl.[/quote]

Yup, white guys just can't catch a break. If only I were black, my life would be so much better. Damn affirmative action and political correctness. Where has my country gone?

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;506972]Yup, white guys just can't catch a break. If only I were black, my life would be so much better. Damn affirmative action and political correctness. Where has my country gone?[/quote]

Well played sir. Well played.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;506972]Yup, white guys just can't catch a break. If only I were black, my life would be so much better. Damn affirmative action and political correctness. Where has my country gone?[/quote]
im not making a joke out of this like you are...just because its not your opinion, it does not mean its a bad one

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506971]I wish everyone would stop picking out a point here and a point here out of my arguement.....i will sum it up again......campbell is going to be a good QB, wrong system and wrong mechanics will hold him up here.........the skin color thing was in refrence to the media(they will be more PC)in attacking a black quarterback.....Washington fans as a whole are very critical of their QBs, always have, always will...How many years do we have to wait on this guy to learn to read defenses,improve his mechanics,stop fumbling...[B]its just insane in my opinion he is getting this much patience[/B].[/quote]

He is repeatedly thrown into new systems for one. Also, he has improved as a professional- in TD-INT ratio, efficiency, comp %, and leadership. It's not his fault our pass pro has been pretty poor, especially recently (and his passer rating has fallen a bit as direct correlation), nor is it his fault our WRs haven't been able to get open and are dropping a ridiculous amount of passes. Most experts and former West Coast offense QBs say it takes up to 3 years to master the system. He's done pretty damn well for his first season.

Washington fans have been overly critical of our QBs, especially lately, because frankly they have sucked for the most part. When is the last time we've drafted a QB in the first round who was seen as a "total package" type of player? That's what JC is, and we're bringing him along as such.

To say that benching him a) would improve our chances or b) isn't being more widely suggested because of race is just dumb IMO.

You think Todd Collins could run out and block on WR reverse? Or run for 10-15 yards straight up field? Or evade pressure when our mediocre O-line lets the pocket collapse too early?

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

It's tough to criticize the best QB since Brad Johnson; especially when we've had so many QBs in a constant revolving door.

I've noticed that fans also get attached to players. Hey, I remember ppl on the WP website crying when Micheal Westbrooke left - "he's going to be a Pro Bowler when he leaves here" arguments. Not! Of course the other side is letting someone like Trent Green go [I lamented when that happened].

[B]The $64,000 question is whether Jason Campbell can carry this team to greatness over the next 6 or more years. [/B] We need to see how he does over this entire season. After that, there will be more competition from Colt and a new WCO veteran for the starting position. Personally, I wonder if JC has the level of talent to be our long-term solution.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=GMScud;506976]He is repeatedly thrown into new systems for one. Also, he's getting better. It's not his fault our pass pro has been pretty poor, especially recently (and his passer rating has fallen a bit as direct correlation), nor is it his fault our WRs haven't been able to get open and are dropping a ridiculous amount of passes. Most experts and former West Coast offense QBs say it takes up to 3 years to master the system. He's done pretty damn well for his first season.

Washington fans have been overly critical of our QBs, especially lately, because frankly they have sucked for the most part. When is the last time we've drafted a QB in the first round who was seen as a "total package" type of player?

To say that benching him a) would improve our chances or b) isn't being more widely suggested because of race is just dumb IMO.

You think Todd Collins could run out and block on WR reverse? Or run for 10-15 yards straight up field? Or evade pressure when our mediocre O-line lets the pocket collapse too early?[/quote]
and i never said bench the guy....i said when we are out of the playoff hunt lets see what we have....thats all

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506979]and i never said bench the guy....i said when we are out of the playoff hunt lets see what we have....thats all[/quote]

If we're out of the playoff hunt come season's end, there will be plenty of blame to spread around. Again, if we protect better and the WRs get open and start hanging on to good throws...

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506975]im not making a joke out of this like you are...just because its not your opinion, it does not mean its a bad one[/quote]

I'm making a joke out of it because it is ridiculous. The fact that the press has acknowledged and even celebrated Doug Williams' Super Bowl win does not support your argument that black quarterbacks are held to a lower standard than white quarterbacks or that white quarterbacks are somehow oppressed by that pesky liberal media. [B]It's celebrating the defeat of certain racist attitudes that permeated every level of football for decades (i.e., blacks are not smart enough to quarterback). [/B]Moreover, if you think the media was soft on Tony Banks, Kordell Stewart, Aaron Brooks, and many other black quarterbacks, you are either lying to yourself or out of your damn mind.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;506983]I'm making a joke out of it because it is ridiculous. The fact that the press has acknowledged and even celebrated Doug Williams' Super Bowl win does not support your argument that black quarterbacks are held to a lower standard than white quarterbacks or that white quarterbacks are somehow oppressed by that pesky liberal media. [B]It's celebrating the defeat of certain racist attitudes that permeated every level of football for decades (i.e., blacks are not smart enough to quarterback). [/B]Moreover, if you think the media was soft on Tony Banks, Kordell Stewart, Aaron Brooks, and many other black quarterbacks, you are either lying to yourself or out of your damn mind.[/quote]
ok man your right, as always

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506971]I wish everyone would stop picking out a point here and a point here out of my arguement.....i will sum it up again......campbell is going to be a good QB, wrong system and wrong mechanics will hold him up here.........the skin color thing was in refrence to the media(they will be more PC)in attacking a black quarterback.....Washington fans as a whole are very critical of their QBs, always have, always will...How many years do we have to wait on this guy to learn to read defenses,improve his mechanics,stop fumbling...its just insane in my opinion he is getting this much patience.[/quote]


i think alot of people would agreee that there is an honest debate to be had about whether JC will ever be more than good and how much patience we must show in order to decide if he can be great.

i think a good amount of people share your view that JC so far has problems readings Ds and that his long wind up delivery is a problem.

i think the media not being as critical of black quarterbacks b/c of PC reasons is a subjective personal opinion people can reasonably disagree on. I respect your view and wont call you stupid or say you dont know a thing about football becasue of it. I might have agreed with you in the early 90's but guys like warren moon and randall cunningham (2 great qbs no matter the color of the arm throwing the ball) have set it up now so that, black or white, you screw up your getting cursed equally.

I do not agree that we have given campbell enough or too much time to see what his true potential is. I am not one of those "hes been in 10 diff system" excuse guys, but let him play out his contract and lets see what we want to do. To this point another poster said something i hadnt thought of: "how smart is it to wait until JC's 5 year contract is up only to decide he is not our guy." to another degree, if we do wait till after next year and decide he is not our guy, what will our qb options be. (colt? please no)

i dont think our handling of JC has been insane, i like how weve played it so far. didnt thrust him in the 1st year, allowed him to get his feet wet, and now we get this year and next to evaluate the hell out of the guy.

go skins!!

ps - long story short; i wont call you stupid because you believe something i dont. especially when it is a subjective person by person issue. alot more poeple calling others stupid nowadays on here.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[url=http://racematters.org/davidniven.htm]Race Matters - FAU study refutes Limbaugh's take on media[/url]

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=over the mountain;506991]i think alot of people would agreee that there is an honest debate to be had about whether JC will ever be more than good and how much patience we must show in order to decide if he can be great.

i think a good amount of people share your view that JC so far has problems readings Ds and that his long wind up delivery is a problem.

i think the media not being as critical of black quarterbacks b/c of PC reasons is a subjective personal opinion people can reasonably disagree on. I respect your view and wont call you stupid or say you dont know a thing about football becasue of it. I might have agreed with you in the early 90's but guys like warren moon and randall cunningham (2 great qbs no matter the color of the arm throwing the ball) have set it up now so that, black or white, you screw up your getting cursed equally.

I do not agree that we have given campbell enough or too much time to see what his true potential is. I am not one of those "hes been in 10 diff system" excuse guys, but let him play out his contract and lets see what we want to do. To this point another poster said something i hadnt thought of: "how smart is it to wait until JC's 5 year contract is up only to decide he is not our guy." to another degree, if we do wait till after next year and decide he is not our guy, what will our qb options be. (colt? please no)

i dont think our handling of JC has been insane, i like how weve played it so far. didnt thrust him in the 1st year, allowed him to get his feet wet, and now we get this year and next to evaluate the hell out of the guy.

go skins!!

ps - long story short; i wont call you stupid because you believe something i dont. especially when it is a subjective person by person issue. alot more poeple calling others stupid nowadays on here.[/quote]

Excellent post. My only disagreement is about letting him start as the QB throughout his contract. If we get to the end of next season and he's NOT the one (i.e., we let him go) then we have:

No clue if Colt can play at the NFL level
No clue who our next QB will be

No one gets 53 games to prove themselves as a starter in the NFL. Not when you're playing average football at the most critical position on the team. If Eli had not finished out last year very strongly [same point Jason is at now] he'd have had strong competition this season and been replaced.

Problem is that Jason has flashes of brilliance but sinks down as the season progresses.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I honestly don't see JC's delivery as being an issue anymore. I look at other QBs and see much more quirky deliveries. Kerry Collins has always had a big hitch. Leftwich has to have the longest windup in the history of the game. Phillip Rivers seems to almost push the ball. Our own Colt Brennan has a pretty unconventional delivery.

JC's delivery has been cleaned up to the point where I don't even see it as being an issue. One thing to consider that I've brought up in the past is he's pretty lanky so I think the illusion is there that he has a longer delivery.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506971]I wish everyone would stop picking out a point here and a point here out of my arguement.....i will sum it up again......campbell is going to be a good QB, wrong system and wrong mechanics will hold him up here.........the skin color thing was in refrence to the media(they will be more PC)in attacking a black quarterback.....Washington fans as a whole are very critical of their QBs, always have, always will...[B]How many years do we have to wait on this guy to learn to read defenses,improve his mechanics,stop fumbling...its just insane in my opinion he is getting this much patience[/B].[/quote]

His completion % is up, his INTs and fumbles are WAY down, and his passer rating is up.

But yeah let's just ignore that.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

slow wind up

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

I don't see it, see my previous post about it.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=Mattyk72;507001]His completion % is up, his INTs and fumbles are WAY down, and his passer rating is up.

But yeah let's just ignore that.[/quote]
nobody is denying he has gotten better, but he seems like he is flatlining....all the talk about he changes systems every year but no one has mentioned in that time.....he has the same o-line,the same WR,the same TE and same set of running backs........a little more consistency is not asking to much from a guy who has played with the same group for 3 years.......an 8 yard slant is the same no matter what scheme you run

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;507017]nobody is denying he has gotten better, but he seems like he is flatlining....all the talk about he changes systems every year but no one has mentioned in that time.....he has the same o-line,the same WR,the same TE and same set of running backs........a little more consistency is not asking to much from a guy who has played with the same group for 3 years.......an 8 yard slant is the same no matter what scheme you run[/quote]

The entire offense is struggling, not just him. Thinking he's the one to blame is a pretty narrow minded view. There's 11 guys on offense.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=Mattyk72;507019]The entire offense is struggling, not just him. Thinking he's the one to blame is a pretty narrow minded view. There's 11 guys on offense.[/quote]
this offense has stuggled for years, hence the reason i said when we are mathimatically eliminated why not see what others can do.
QB-brennan for campbell,OL-rinehart and heyer,TE-davis for yoder,WR-thomas and kelly for ARE and thrash

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=Mattyk72;507019]The entire offense is struggling, not just him. Thinking he's the one to blame is a pretty narrow minded view. There's 11 guys on offense.[/quote]

Excellent point. With a good OL and WR's who could get open & actually catch the ball when it hits their hands I wonder where JC would be right now. Certainly better, but I think Zorn will have to make his determination on JC next season without a totally perfect offensive package.

Barring injury, I see no chance of JC being replaced, even on a limited basis, this season. Next season is more questionable unless JC finishes strong these last games.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;507017]nobody is denying he has gotten better, but he seems like he is flatlining....all the talk about he changes systems every year but no one has mentioned in that time.....he has the same o-line,the same WR,the same TE and same set of running backs........a little more consistency is not asking to much from a guy who has played with the same group for 3 years.......an 8 yard slant is the same no matter what scheme you run[/quote]

I wonder if his stats would suggest flatlining if his receivers were doing a better job getting open and also catching the balls that hit them in the hands....

As far as not throwing downfield more, this article in today's [I]Wash Post [/I]would be a good read for you (your 8 yard slant comment):

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/02/AR2008120203022.html"]washingtonpost.com[/URL]

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=A10sROCK;507022]Excellent point. With a good OL and WR's who could get open & actually catch the ball when it hits their hands I wonder where JC would be right now. Certainly better, but I think Zorn will have to make his determination on JC next season without a totally perfect offensive package.

Barring injury, I see no chance of JC being replaced, even on a limited basis, this season. [B]Next season is more questionable unless JC finishes strong these last games.[/B][/quote]


I disagree with that last sentence. In Matt Hasselbeck's first season in the WCO in Seattle, he was so bad he was benched mid-season for Trent Dilfer. But given time to learn, he's now made multiple pro-bowls and won an NFC Championship. I don't think next season is questionable for JC whatsoever barring a catasrophic regression in his play.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=GMScud;507025]I disagree with that last sentence. In Matt Hasselbeck's first season in the WCO in Seattle, he was so bad he was benched mid-season for Trent Dilfer. But given time to learn, he's now made multiple pro-bowls and won an NFC Championship. I don't think next season is questionable for JC whatsoever barring a catasrophic regression in his play.[/quote]

What I meant to say is that "if the offense and JC continue to struggle", then his starting position at QB will be more in jeopardy next season as it progresses. [B]Obviously if JC does well and we start scoring points and winning games, then he will be given an extension as the long-term franchise QB. That's what I hope happens.[/B]

If he's just playing at the 'decent-to-good' QB level then Zorn will have a tough decision to make in the 2009 season.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=SmootSmack;506993][URL="http://racematters.org/davidniven.htm"]Race Matters - FAU study refutes Limbaugh's take on media[/URL][/quote]

Great link, but it's ignored.

Anyways this thread is getting ridiculous, I still can't believe Charlie has those beliefs.