Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SBXVII;519344]^Can't get any worse? does Detroit ring a bell?...0-16. I think we will be better next year though. Atleast I'm trying to hold out hope. I still would like to see the team bring in new young WR's and call it open camp or what ever. Make known [B]the only jobs not on the line are Moss and ARE[/B]. Scare Thomas and Kelly into working their arsses off and then hope that some decent young talent comes out of it for the future.

Oh and get a new WR's coach.[/quote]

Because ARE had such a stellar year;) That guy dropped more balls than Carlos Rogers. If we really drafted guys who need to be scared into working hard, then we have much bigger problems. I'm not buying that they're lazy, shiftless and incapable of reading a playbook. DeSean Jackson is a tremendous knucklehead, but the Eagles got him on the field and he produced.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;519340]I think it could be as well. The Skins had weapons, but didn't use them effectively (or at all in some cases). The backs were almost non-existent in the passing game, the rookies couldn't get on the field and pass protection was shaky at times, although I think they could have schemed better to compensate for any weaknesses in the O line. They really only had trouble blocking the better defenses, like the Ravens, Giants, Steelers and Cowboys. Can't blame pass protection for the losses to the Bungles, Rams and 49ers.

I'm optimistic that the coaches will be better, because they can't be any worse, and that the young guys emerge. They only need a middle of the pack offense to be a playoff team, [B]assuming the defense remaints stout[/B]. Better offense makes for better defense anyway.[/quote]

If we keep neglecting the D-line, that becomes a bigger assumption each year. Sooner or later, Cornelius Griffin is going to run out of gas. As the keystone of the line, once he goes, the whole thing could blow up in our face.

Not only that, but in season after season it seemed like we did nothing but draft linebackers. Robert McCune, Jared Newberry, Rocky McIntosh, Kevin Simon, Dallas Sartz, and H.B. Blades were all drafted linebackers beginning in 2005. Only two of them panned out (Rocky and H.B.). And some might argue that the jury is still out on those guys. Now, even that position is in need of a makeover.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I don't think Devin Thomas needs any sort of psychoanalysis. There's nothing wrong with him character wise. He's just not that good, and seems to be short on potential.

We'll have plenty of years to squeeze what we can out of him. He's never going to be a dependable starting WR here, but that doesn't mean he will be totally useless. Far from it. We'll figure out a way to use him.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Beemnseven;519361]If we keep neglecting the D-line, that becomes a bigger assumption each year. Sooner or later, Cornelius Griffin is going to run out of gas. As the keystone of the line, once he goes, the whole thing could blow up in our face.

Not only that, but in season after season it seemed like we did nothing but draft linebackers. Robert McCune, Jared Newberry, Rocky McIntosh, Kevin Simon, Dallas Sartz, and H.B. Blades were all drafted linebackers beginning in 2005. Only two of them panned out (Rocky and H.B.). And some might argue that the jury is still out on those guys. Now, even that position is in need of a makeover.[/quote]

We have used multiple picks on LBs in recent years, but aside from Rocky, all those picks (I believe) have been 5th round or later. Using one late round pick after another on LBs with the belief that one will become a reliable starter is kind of dumb. Sure, HB has turned into a good backup/spot starter and a solid special teamer, but if we want some stud starters, we need to draft some better players in higher rounds.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;519358]Because ARE had such a stellar year;) That guy dropped more balls than Carlos Rogers. If we really drafted guys who need to be scared into working hard, then we have much bigger problems. I'm not buying that they're lazy, shiftless and incapable of reading a playbook. DeSean Jackson is a tremendous knucklehead, but the Eagles got him on the field and he produced.[/quote]

No don't get me wrong. ARE is no CJ. but I do think they used him in the wrong way. I think he can produce as long as he's not asked to be the #1 or #2 WR. He should be the #3 or #4 WR and when he's in the defense should always worry as to if he's running a route or trick play.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=GMScud;519383]We have used multiple picks on LBs in recent years, but aside from Rocky, all those picks (I believe) have been 5th round or later. Using one late round pick after another on LBs with the belief that one will become a reliable starter is kind of dumb. Sure, HB has turned into a good backup/spot starter and a solid special teamer, but if we want some stud starters, we need to draft some better players in higher rounds.[/quote]Blades is going to be a very good player in this league, but I don't think he'll be in the starting lineup until Fletch moves on, simply because that would create a very undersized unit, and offenses could expose that.

I think Rocky will probably start again next year, but that we will move him over to the strong side, and Blades will get a lot of his playing time. The WLB next year, I'm convinced, will be someone who isn't currently a Redskin.

Unlike Lance Briggs, Karlos Dansby has every incentive to come here because he played his college ball on the same team as Rogers and Campbell. I don't think he was part of the undefeated 2004 team though, I believe that was his rookie year.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=GTripp0012;519373]I don't think Devin Thomas needs any sort of psychoanalysis. [B]There's nothing wrong with him character wise. He's just not that good, and seems to be short on potential.[/B]

We'll have plenty of years to squeeze what we can out of him. He's never going to be a dependable starting WR here, but that doesn't mean he will be totally useless. Far from it. We'll figure out a way to use him.[/quote]

Ahem... GT I respect/appreciate you're analysis as much as the next Warpather but wrt DT the guy's whole story is/was based on potential. He probably had a thin scout file overall, which made him riskier than some other WRs in the draft, but that one monster season in college led a lot of people to figure his potential was special.

Now there seem to be substantiated reports that Devin isn't really committed to working his ass off for the people who took a risk on him... i would want to sit him down if i'm Danny/Vinny/Jim/Stan.

Also, i believed i saw serious potential in Devin the few times he got his hands on the ball. Extremely athletic IMO - even athletic like Tana. However being that Devin is a WR he's got to do so much, and do it so much better, in order for Jason to get the ball into his hands.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;517068]
What are your thoughts on our WR crew for 2009? Who will line up for us? Who should? Do you have faith that Thomas & Kelly will help us win next year?[/quote]

I think that we need more production from all our receivers.
Especially from our #2 and #3 receivers.
I think Moss should remain as the #1 option but not as the X receiver, i would rather see Moss as the Z receiver and either Devin Thomas or Malcolm Kelly as the X. ARE becomes the slot receiver and we mix in more 4 wide packages to get them all on the field at times.


I don't know, it seems like the staff is content to bring them along slowly.
Unless Moss or ARE doesn't return i would expect about a combined 50 catches from them.

But my gosh, the potential. If only our coaches could unleash it.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

we need somebody like calvin johnson... he's going to one of the greatest. its a fact.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Thats Been A Problem When Art Monk Left

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

The best teams and most consistent teams build for the OL and DL. they use their best draft picks there. Read NE, Pitts, Gints, Eagles.

We consistently "draft for the flash" and have been at the bottom of the NFL win/loss record since we started drafting Desmond Howard back in the day.

We need to let this rookie class of WR / TE see if they have the NFL juice. If Jason has a strong OL and protection, he may do better and there can be no excuses for him or these new WR.

I was surprised the either Hixon or Danny Smith were not replaced as coaches this season. I guess that Zorn thinks we are on the edge of greatness and that no changes are necessary on his entire coaching staff. We shall see.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

But it's not like those teams you mention only use their high draft picks on line help, they go for "flash" early more than some would seem to believe

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=A10sROCK;521652]The best teams and most consistent teams build for the OL and DL. they use their best draft picks there. Read NE, Pitts, Gints, Eagles.

We consistently "draft for the flash" and have been at the bottom of the NFL win/loss record since we started drafting Desmond Howard back in the day.

We need to let this rookie class of WR / TE see if they have the NFL juice. If Jason has a strong OL and protection, he may do better and there can be no excuses for him or these new WR.

I was surprised the either Hixon or Danny Smith were not replaced as coaches this season. I guess that Zorn thinks we are on the edge of greatness and that no changes are necessary on his entire coaching staff. We shall see.[/quote]

Lets not forget Desmond turned into a SB MVP. Redskins had the forsight to draft him but not to keep him.

Strange how many good/great players came to the Skins and flopped. They get on other teams and produce???

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44ever;521659]Lets not forget Desmond turned into a SB MVP. Redskins had the forsight to draft him but not to keep him.

Strange how many good/great players came to the Skins and flopped. They get on other teams and produce???[/quote]

as a returner, not a wr. Never lived up to his draft position, but he ended up having a pretty long career. I don't fault mgmt. for letting him walk out of town.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=freddyg12;521660]as a returner, not a wr. Never lived up to his draft position, but he ended up having a pretty long career. I don't fault mgmt. for letting him walk out of town.[/quote]

True, but he could have been returning punts for us. Brian Mitchell was a running back. ARE and Moss are recievers they all return punts. Mngmt also needs to recognize talent for purposes other than their own intent.

We have great talent on our current team not utilized correctly

Just a obsevation.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44ever;521659]Lets not forget Desmond turned into a SB MVP. Redskins had the forsight to draft him but not to keep him.

Strange how many good/great players came to the Skins and flopped. They get on other teams and produce???[/quote]

Sounds sort of like the same thing in Chicago eh? and maybe Oakland? lol, i guess were not far along from them after all, well not oakland but chicago

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=MiraclesHappen07;521668]Sounds sort of like the same thing in Chicago eh? and maybe Oakland? lol, i guess were not far along from them after all, well not oakland but chicago[/quote]

I don't know. But I do have a good feeling Zorns going to put the pieces together.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44ever;521671]I don't know. But I do have a good feeling Zorns going to put the pieces together.[/quote]

Looks like those pain pills are kicking in :D I kid I kid.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;521676]Looks like those pain pills are kicking in :D I kid I kid.[/quote]

Funny you say that :)

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Anybody think about Darrell Jackson for next year? We could probably get pretty good value since he's been injured the past 3 years. He hasn't been good since Seattle, but then he was in the west coast offense and Zorn was there.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I think Jackson has nothing at all to offer us

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;521786]I think Jackson has nothing at all to offer us[/quote]

2nd that. He's slowed down and is injury prone.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=A10sROCK;521652]The best teams and most consistent teams build for the OL and DL. they use their best draft picks there. Read NE, Pitts, Gints, Eagles.

We consistently "draft for the flash" and have been at the bottom of the NFL win/loss record since we started drafting Desmond Howard back in the day.

We need to let this rookie class of WR / TE see if they have the NFL juice. If Jason has a strong OL and protection, he may do better and there can be no excuses for him or these new WR.

I was surprised the either Hixon or Danny Smith were not replaced as coaches this season. I guess that Zorn thinks we are on the edge of greatness and that no changes are necessary on his entire coaching staff. We shall see.[/quote]

Exactly. The Titans didn't need no stinkin' receivers;) If it weren't for some fluky and ill-timed turnovers against the Ravens, they would have coasted to the AFC Championship game. Steelers don't need them either. They let Plaxico go and win the Super Bowl. Hines goes down in the AFC Championship, and they still win. McNabb has scrubs every year, but they go to 5 NFC Champhionships and 1 Super Bowl in 8 years. Brady won 3 Super Bowls with average receivers.

The Skins need line men and play makers on Defense. Any half way decent QB can throw to half way decent receivers (by the way, tight ends and running backs are allowed to catch passes as well) all day if he has time to throw. Campbell needs all day, so draft line men and give him all day. Case Closed.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;522834]Exactly. The Titans didn't need no stinkin' receivers;) If it weren't for some fluky and ill-timed turnovers against the Ravens, they would have coasted to the AFC Championship game. Steelers don't need them either. They let Plaxico go and win the Super Bowl. Hines goes down in the AFC Championship, and they still win. McNabb has scrubs every year, but they go to 5 NFC Champhionships and 1 Super Bowl in 8 years. Brady won 3 Super Bowls with average receivers.

The Skins need line men and play makers on Defense. Any half way decent QB can throw to half way decent receivers (by the way, tight ends and running backs are allowed to catch passes as well) all day if he has time to throw. Campbell needs all day, so draft line men and give him all day. Case Closed.[/quote]

After Ward, the Steelers have a good receiver in Santonio Holmes. They also have a decent TE in Smith. Let's not forget the very good/almost elite defense that the Steelers have. McNabb wasn't successful last year when they really didn't have any receivers. This year he had DeSean Jackson. Also let's not forget Westbrook, he's a big threat as a pass catching RB.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

To be a broken drum, WR RARELY contribute the first year. recent examples, roddy white, calvin johnson, ect.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Ruhskins;522839]After Ward, the Steelers have a good receiver in Santonio Holmes. They also have a decent TE in Smith. Let's not forget the very good/almost elite defense that the Steelers have. McNabb wasn't successful last year when they really didn't have any receivers. This year he had DeSean Jackson. Also let's not forget Westbrook, he's a big threat as a pass catching RB.[/quote]

Like I said, the Steelers still had an effective offense when Ward went out, and we have a good receiver in Moss and a pro-bow TE in Cooley (Smith plays for the Eagles, Miller for the Steelers). The Eagles were MUCH better in previous years when they didn't have Jackson and there's nothing stopping the Redskins from using the RBs in the passing game except for poor coaching and play calling. And I also used the '08 Titans and Patriots of the last 8 years as an example, and could have thrown in the Ravens for good measure. WRs are not the key to being successful in the NFL. Even the Cardinals were a 9-7 team this year and could very well be a flash in the pan.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=NM Redskin;522840]To be a broken drum, WR RARELY contribute the first year. recent examples, roddy white, calvin johnson, ect.[/quote]

Roddy White didn't contribute until the Falcons got a legitimate QB and CJ had 756 yards his rookie year... and we all know what DeSean Jackson and Eddie Royal did this year and guys like Colston have done in previous years.

WR and RB are actually the positions where rookies DO tend to contribue right out the shoot. However, the best way to guarantee they won't contribute is to keep them on the sidelines, as evidenced by the Skins coaching staff.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Ruhskins;522839]After Ward, the Steelers have a good receiver in Santonio Holmes. They also have a decent TE in Smith. Let's not forget the very good/almost elite defense that the Steelers have. McNabb wasn't successful last year when they really didn't have any receivers. This year he had DeSean Jackson. Also let's not forget Westbrook, he's a big threat as a pass catching RB.[/quote]

you mean Heath Miller hes the TE for the Steelers

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;522854]Roddy White didn't contribute until the Falcons got a legitimate QB and CJ had 756 yards his rookie year... and we all know what DeSean Jackson and Eddie Royal did this year and guys like Colston have done in previous years.

WR and RB are actually the positions where rookies DO tend to contribue right out the shoot. However, the best way to guarantee they won't contribute is to keep them on the sidelines, as evidenced by the Skins coaching staff.[/quote]

The thing is Calvin had Roy Williams not saying that he wasnt good its just that if you dont know who will contribute right away look at Chad Johnson rookie season to his second season. Injuries hurt our WRs this year which in turn kept them out of practice which wouldn't let them learn the offense as fast. Now that they have an off season to absorb it. Give them one year

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;522856]The thing is Calvin had Roy Williams not saying that he wasnt good its just that if you dont know who will contribute right away look at Chad Johnson rookie season to his second season. Injuries hurt our WRs this year which in turn kept them out of practice which wouldn't let them learn the offense as fast. Now that they have an off season to absorb it. Give them one year[/quote]

My point has always been that other teams would have found a way to get better production out of Thomas, Kelly and Davis in their rookie season (or any of our rookies for that matter).

Our receiving corps was one of the worst in the league, so the rooks couldn't have possibly been much worse (Kelly on a unicycle is better than Thrash). I'm not willing to give the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt, since they can't point to a single rookie that contributed by design. It took an injury to Doughty to figure out what Horton could do with playing time, so that was pure serendipity.

I fear we're going to spend next season watching Kelly and Thomas go through some of the growing pains we saw from DeSean Jackson this past season (remember all those drops against us?). Just my opinion.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[B[/B][/B][quote=44Deezel;522906]My point has always been that other teams would have found a way to get better production out of Thomas, Kelly and Davis in their rookie season (or any of our rookies for that matter).

Our receiving corps was one of the worst in the league, so the rooks couldn't have possibly been much worse (Kelly on a unicycle is better than Thrash). I'm not willing to give the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt, since they can't point to a single rookie that contributed by design. It took an injury to Doughty to figure out what Horton could do with playing time, so that was pure serendipity.

[B]I fear we're going to spend next season watching Kelly and Thomas go through some of the growing pains we saw from DeSean Jackson this past season (remember all those drops against us?). Just my opinion.[/B][/quote]

What do you mean? If Thomas and Kelly have the same type season as DeSean Jackson had last year i'd be ecstatic.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SOUL-SKINS;522919][B[/B][/B]

What do you mean? If Thomas and Kelly have the same type season as DeSean Jackson had last year i'd be ecstatic.[/quote]

Me too. One of them at least should be near that level or the braintrust @ Redskins Park has got to look at the coaching situation... HIXON!

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=44Deezel;522854]Roddy White didn't contribute until the Falcons got a legitimate QB and CJ had 756 yards his rookie year... and we all know what DeSean Jackson and Eddie Royal did this year and guys like Colston have done in previous years.

WR and RB are actually the positions where rookies DO tend to contribue right out the shoot. However, the best way to guarantee they won't contribute is to keep them on the sidelines, as evidenced by the Skins coaching staff.[/quote]

I think if you look at the history it does suggest that wide receivers take time to develop. Everyone knows that. The problem comes in merely taking that truism and spouting it reflexively to explain the lack of production from the Redskins rookie pass catchers. Again, thinking about past precedent, Devin Thomas' numbers this year suggest to me that he will never be a very productive player in the NFL. Wide receivers don't just emerge from absolutely no where and then suddenly "get it" in year three. There is some progression. Just take the case of Roddy White. Sure he was relatively unproductive his first two seasons, but he had 446 and 503 yards receiving respectively. He also had two 100 yard receiving games and two 90+ yard receiving games over that span.

If you look at every wide receiver drafted in the first two rounds since 2000, here is a list of every player who failed to catch 30 passes his rookie year (a mark chosen by me as a sign of basic competency):

R. Jay Soward (14, 154, 1), Todd Pinkston (10, 181, 0), Freddie Mitchell (21, 283, 1), [B]Santana Moss (2, 40, 0)[/B], [B]Reggie Wayne (27, 345, 0)[/B], Robert Ferguson (0, 0, 0), [B]Javon Walker (23, 319, 1)[/B], Tim Carter (2, 37, 0), Reche Caldwell (22, 208, 3), Charles Rogers (22, 243, 3), Taylor Jacobs (3, 37, 1), Bethel Johnson (16, 209, 2), Tyrone Calico (18, 297, 4), [B]Reggie Williams (27, 268, 1)[/B], [B]Michael Jenkins (7, 119, 0)[/B], Rashaun Woods (7, 160, 1), Devery Henderson (0,0,0 [22, 343, 3 second year]), Mike Williams (29, 350, 1), [B]Roddy White (29, 446, 3)[/B], Mark Bradley (18, 230, 0), Roscoe Parrish (15, 148, 1), Terrance Murphy (5, 36, 0), [B]Vincent Jackson (3, 59, 0)[/B], Chad Jackson (13, 152, 3), Sinorice Moss (5, 25, 0), Robert Meachem (0, 0, 0), Craig Davis (20, 188, 1), Dwayne Jarrett (6, 73, 0), [B]Steve Smith (8, 63, 0)[/B]

I have highlighted those players that you can point to if you want to cling to hope that Thomas will turn into a decent player (with Wayne and White being Pro Bowlers; Moss is a different case since he is hurt and compares better to Malcolm Kelly if we want to hope for the very best). But most of the players who went on to become even basic contributers had stats that dwarfed Thomas' (15, 120, 0). The basic point that I take from this exercise is that while receivers often take time to develop they also don't start out life completely clueless (as Thomas clearly was many many times this year). Those who do start out clueless and fail to contribute usually never ever end up contributing. So you can say that it is "too soon to judge" but I think on Thomas we can actually look at past precedent and determine that he will never become a significant contributer in the NFL. He had enough time on the field to do something. He wouldn't have magically become Eddie Royal or DeShaun Jackson if only he had landed in another city.

Kelly is a different case since he was injured most of the year. It really is difficult to get a read on him. As I said above, the best we can hope for with him is a career trajectory that looks something like that of Santana Moss. Apart from Moss there is not much precedent in the past decade of a receiver missing a whole year due to injury and then becoming an important contributer to the team.

Here is a sampling of some other receivers and their rookie statistics:

Larry Fitzgerald (58, 780, 8), Roy Williams (58, 817, 8), Braylon Edwards (injury shortened, 32, 512, 3), Santonio Holmes (49, 824, 2), Greg Jennings (45, 632, 3), Calvin Johnson (48, 756, 4), Dwayne Bowe (70, 995, 5) ... and that is leaving out obvious guys like Royal, Jackson, Andre Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Randy Moss, etc.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Wow. Actually a lot of rook WRs have posted serious numbers, which you're right SC doesn't bode well for Devin in particular. The only caveat may be his track-record prior to NFL was very short so he's taking in a lot i.e. he may be a special case. Also that the coaches seemed to favor the vets over the rooks.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=The Goat;522954]Wow. Actually a lot of rook WRs have posted serious numbers, which you're right SC doesn't bode well for Devin in particular. The only caveat may be his track-record prior to NFL was very short so he's taking in a lot i.e. he may be a special case. Also that the coaches seemed to favor the vets over the rooks.[/quote]

If Moss, ARE, Cooley, and Thrash had gone down with injury, the coaches would have had to play Thomas and Kelly. People forget that in Denver and Philly, a lot of their WRs went down with injury.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

As much as TJ would look great in Burgundy and Gold, it will definitely cost too much money. I think it would be a wise move to go after Bobby Engram as he has played in the WCO in Seattle and will be familiar with Zorn. He is a smart #2 receiver and could free up ARE to work as the #3/4 Receiver as Thomas and Kelly battle out for the other spots.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

What's the advantage of bringing in an undersized 36-year old WR who hasn't played more than 13 games in a season in the past 5 years?

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Why don't we get plaxico Buress for no money. thatd be cool in my opinion i don't care if he shot himself hell still ball like pimp. He'll be this years hall.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I share in the sentiment that Hixon either puts in more work or they need to get a new wr coach. 5 years has been a long time.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;523226]What's the advantage of bringing in an undersized 36-year old WR who hasn't played more than 13 games in a season in the past 5 years?[/quote]

Thrash definitely needs to be replaced and I thought Engram would be an intriging option for a while, but i have come to the same conclusion as you. other than being a mentor here, he wouldnt be of much use. i think getting a former seahawk veteran receiver is a good idea, but Engram is not the one i would pursue.