Re: Obama Care
 

I am going to address this from a completely different perspective. I believe that there is an equal necessity for both a private choice of health care and a Government provided universal healthcare.

Do we not have a universal public education system that provides a means for all people to be afforded the same educational opportunities for the masses? How many of us would actually be educated right now if only those that could afford to send their kids off to school to get an education were educated? Granted the Public school systems may not be the best, but at least they are something.

I believe that just like public education there must be some form of health care provided for every citizen. This health care should be run by the state and local governments just like public education is. If you can afford better, then by all means go buy yourself something better, but lets not deprive those of a necessity. Health care is a necessity and more so than education as far as I'm concerned.

If you truly believe that this is an extreme act of socialism then withdrawl your kids from their public schools.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564469]I don't see that a gov't option as being "oppressed." Let's not get crazy here, no one is inviting Queen Elizabeth over the pond. Specifically regarding taxation without representation, no one is doing anything with that. IF our elected officials pass some form of this plan, then it's the will of the people, maybe not all of the people, but the majority. It's not something being forced upon the taxpayers by the divine will of Lord Obama.[/quote]

We don't need anyone else's queen, we've got our King Obama to save us.

The English were content as well under King George, they did not revolt, but our country was founded on individualism and limited government. We are well past anything King George ever imposed on the colonists. He would, in fact, have loved the trappings of the Presidency.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Miller101;564462]Can you blame the media? Can you blame them? I mean, they're the ones that actually have to ask the questions! :doh: And here the responses :confused: Forgive them if they're happy to FINALLY have a President that can speak in complete sentences! A president that can answer their questions. A president that won't throw them out of the room for asking the "wrong question". Its just.........Its weird man! I mean, remember the last Supreme Court nominee? The lottery chick? Can you imagine being in the media and having to go through that? Having to ask the questions? Particulary, why he appointed a Lottery chick? Just think about it from their perspective for a minute...............And give them a break man. Give us a break! We're still getting used to it.[/quote]

What are you even talking about? Your point is we have a Prez who can "speak in complete sentences" and who "finally answers questions?" Please. He's not answering anything that wasn't scripted by Gibbs/Emanuel ahead of time, or that isn't on his teleprompter. He doesn't throw people out of the room for asking the "wrong questions," he just simply doesn't call on the reporters who he knows will ask the "wrong questions." And you want to talk about appointees? Really dude? Were you paying attention right after the inauguration when several of Obama's big nominees had to withdraw because they can't pay taxes properly?? Come on.

Did you even read the link I provided? He didn't answer anything yesterday. It's pretty obvious you're still enamored with Obama mania. Kind of like the way the media giggles and coos at every little quip that comes out of his mouth. It's so annoying.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Angry;564470]I am going to address this from a completely different perspective. I believe that there is an equal necessity for both a private choice of health care and a Government provided universal healthcare.

Do we not have a universal public education system that provides a means for all people to be afforded the same educational opportunities for the masses? How many of us would actually be educated right now if only those that could afford to send their kids off to school to get an education were educated? Granted the Public school systems may not be the best, but at least they are something.

I believe that just like public education there must be some form of health care provided for every citizen. This health care should be run by the state and local governments just like public education is. If you can afford better, then by all means go buy yourself something better, but lets not deprive those of a necessity. Health care is a necessity and more so than education as far as I'm concerned.

If you truly believe that this is an extreme act of socialism then withdrawl your kids from their public schools.[/quote]

Good post. There should be choice, and both should be available. I'm sure the logistics of implementing this kind of system would be complex, but cut and dry, I agree with you here.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Angry;564470]Do we not have a universal public education system that provides a means for all people to be afforded the same educational opportunities for the masses?[/quote]No we do not. Public education is a state/local responsibility (as it should be). Approximately 6% of public school funding comes from the Fed.

[quote]I believe that just like public education there must be some form of health care provided for every citizen. This health care should be run by the state and local governments just like public education is. If you can afford better, then by all means go buy yourself something better, but lets not deprive those of a necessity.[/quote]If a state wishes to provide free health care for its citizens, by all means go ahead. As long as that state is only taking a minimal percentage of financial support (under 6%) from the Fed to fund this and the program doesn't overlap with programs that already exist (Medicare/Medicaid). Also when the state goes belly up (CA) the Feds don't bail the state out unless the state reduces programs/services and pays the Fed back with interest in under 10 years.

This isn't about access to health care for everyone, there are plenty of avenues for people to get health care. This debate is about expanding the federal government's control into peoples lives. The last two times since 1900 that the left had supermajority control of the federal government we came away with social programs that are threatening to bankrupt the country (FDR - New Deal, L. Johnson - Great Society, Medicare/Medicaid). What Obama and the left in Congress are attempting to jam through (Univ. Health Care, Env Reforms, gov't takeover of GM, etc.) will push the government much closer to insolvency or the need to institute massive tax increases on all Americans. Everything has a price. Either monetarily or with freedoms lost.

I'm not willing to sacrifice my family's access to quality & timely health care or the financial independence of future generations to provide health care under a massive, ineffiecent government bureacracy to under 10% of the population. Why should I make those sacrifices when this 10% currently isn't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to provide health care to themselves or their families. Health care options are readily available in the private sector for those willing to work for them.

P.S. No one supporting Obama Care has provided an effective response to my point about CER, or are folks on the left OK with this?

[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/30288-obama-care-2.html#post564312[/URL]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Angry;564470]I am going to address this from a completely different perspective. I believe that there is an equal necessity for both a private choice of health care and a Government provided universal healthcare.

Do we not have a universal public education system that provides a means for all people to be afforded the same educational opportunities for the masses? How many of us would actually be educated right now if only those that could afford to send their kids off to school to get an education were educated? Granted the Public school systems may not be the best, but at least they are something.

I believe that just like public education there must be some form of health care provided for every citizen. This health care should be run by the state and local governments just like public education is. If you can afford better, then by all means go buy yourself something better, but lets not deprive those of a necessity. Health care is a necessity and more so than education as far as I'm concerned.

[SIZE=3]If you truly believe that this is an extreme act of socialism then withdrawl your kids from their public schools.[/quote][/SIZE]

I did.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;564475]

P.S. No one supporting Obama Care has provided an effective response to my point about CER, or are folks on the left OK with this?
[/quote]

Well, using Angry's above scenario, there's no need. If someone prefers an alternative regimen with a low chance of success, they are fully within their rights to pursue it, but at their own expense. How is this a problem? And Healthcare companies may not use the term CER, but they definitely make it very hard for anyone to pursue expensive treatments.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564482]Well, using Angry's above scenario, there's no need. If someone prefers an alternative regimen with a low chance of success, they are fully within their rights to pursue it, but at their own expense. How is this a problem? And Healthcare companies may not use the term CER, but they definitely make it very hard for anyone to pursue expensive treatments.[/quote]
It will be even tougher when the goverment has to ration care because of cost spiralling out of control.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564426]Ubuntu is not bulshit but a way of life. It is a philosophical answer if you understand it. You clearly don't understand it or have it. You are Ubuntuless![/quote]As is DVOA, but I find most people prefer actual, real-world answers to questions.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564489]It will be even tougher when the goverment has to ration care because of cost spiralling out of control.[/quote]

All the Obama Care has to do too fix this is raise the taxes on the rich some more. :)

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564464]They took your money and stole it from your account and never invested it in your funds.[/quote]

Are you adhering to the standards you have set forth with your initial argument?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;564468]Insinuating that you are the expert right?[/quote]

You're a free man, you can infer whatever you want.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564482]Well, using Angry's above scenario, there's no need. If someone prefers an alternative regimen with a low chance of success, they are fully within their rights to pursue it, but at their own expense. How is this a problem? And Healthcare companies may not use the term CER, but they definitely make it very hard for anyone to pursue expensive treatments.[/quote]Obviously if someone wants to spend $$$ on a treatment that is expensive and won't work no insurer private or gov't will cover it. And yes, the CER concept is used in private healthcare, but not to deny coverage of normal procedures. If a procedure isn't covered "in-network" on a plan there is the option of going "out-of-network" to get the procedure but with less of a percentage covered. CER boards are used in many countries with socialized medicine to deny certain treatments or to deny treatment to individuals based on age or other factors. I don't want a gov't bureacrat between me and my doctor or other medical professional. When I'm a bit older, I don't want some GS-9 deciding whether I'm able to get an MRI, or heart valve replacement, or other treatment in a timely manner. I just had my gall bladder taken out, not a big deal but over $30K without insurance, cost me about $ 2K. Whenever I ate anything I was in severe pain for 3-4 hours. If I had to wait for this surgery for two weeks or 1 month, that would've been absurd.

Once a government run insurance program is in place with less benefits and no profit motive, it will drive the costs of private insurance up to be unaffordable or will bring service levels way down. Let's say a family of four with both parents working is bringing in $ 80K / yr. They go with the gov't program as the private insurance will likely go to over $ 1K per month. Their child needs a procedure, recommended by their doctor, which the government will not authorize because it doesn't meet the recommendations of the CER board. The procedure costs $ 40K....yeah I've got a problem with that. When currently that same family is paying about $ 300-500 per month for much better and timely coverage that will allow that procedure.

Again, our health care system isn't perfect, but it's the best in the world. Why do people come here from countries with socialized medicine to get procedures done? We need to fix some things but not put another massive government program in place. If you want to provide vouchers or tax credits for low income families that can't afford health insurance that can be discussed, but the Kennedy/Wrangle/Obama vision is flat out wrong and will be extremely destructive to our healthcare system and the federal budget.

EDIT: As a small business owner, if I'm forced to provide health care benefits to my employees (or pay a fine), who will wind up paying for it. My customers will, I'll have to raise prices. That could actually result in a reduction in monthly revenue if people don't want to pay higher prices and force me into the red. Or, I'll have to cut my staff down to an absolute minimum, that will be at least 2-3 jobs lost. Obama can count those in his jobs saved/created numbers. We're a small family owned restaurant, under 20 employees. Other restaurants like mine will be in the same position, some will close and you'll have more of the chain restaurants to visit (oh joy). But Obama is supposed to be for the little guys right?

Re: Obama Care
 

Maybe the reason health cost are lower in Canada is people are probably dying while waiting for surgery with an average wait of 18 WEEKS.
[url=http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/cansurgery4.html]Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564489]It will be even tougher when the goverment has to ration care because of cost spiralling out of control.[/quote]

How long after this do you think we start eating each other? Just curious...

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564505]Maybe the reason health cost are lower in Canada is people are probably dying while waiting for surgery with an average wait of 18 WEEKS.
[URL="http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/cansurgery4.html"]Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report[/URL][/quote]
liberal response: You can't spell, that link is from a conversative web-page, you're a partisan, you can't spell, blah, blah, blah.

In the meantime the Obama supporters are so blinded by their vision of victory they don't care what effect Universal Health Care will have on our country and on future generations.

Re: Obama Care
 

Oh, it does not look much better in Europe.
[url=http://www.whitedrums.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1055:wait-continues-for-14000-on-surgery-lists-&catid=136:europe&Itemid=281]Wait continues for 14,000 on surgery lists | White Drums India's First E-News on Citizen Reporting / Journalism.[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564501]You're a free man, you can infer whatever you want.[/quote]

I'd rather you explain what you meant rather than trying to be cute again. Hence the pointed question. Are you avoiding the question like you so often like to point out about others?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564506]How long after this do you think we start eating each other? Just curious...[/quote]
I have a pretty big garden, know how to fish and hunt so I'm good to go.

Re: Obama Care
 

I got a shotgun, a rifle, and a 4-wheel drive, a country boy...........

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564500]Are you adhering to the standards you have set forth with your initial argument?[/quote]

You said this:
[quote=saden1;564460]The guys that manage the mutual funds that I owe.[/quote]

and I asked a simple question so whats so hard about giving an answer?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Hog1;564526]I got a shotgun, a rifle, and a 4-wheel drive, a country boy...........[/quote]

Can survive. he!! Yea

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;564510]I'd rather you explain what you meant rather than trying to be cute again. Hence the pointed question. Are you avoiding the question like you so often like to point out about others?[/quote]

If you must know the truth I am but a humble horse without winkers who can play chess or checkers at a moments notice.

If that's too cute for you then here is the not so cute answer...I know exactly what the f*ck I am talking about at all times otherwise I don't f*ing talk.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564528]You said this:


and I asked a simple question so whats so hard about giving an answer?[/quote]

You need to go further up the conversation chain and look at your statement.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564544]If you must know the truth I am but a humble horse without winkers who can play chess or checkers at a moments notice.

If that's too cute for you then here is the not so cute answer...I know exactly what the f*ck I am talking about at all times otherwise I don't f*ing talk.[/quote]
But are you an "expert"? In the same vein do you consider yourself smarter than everyone else (we'll limit the realm to this site)? Or just smarter than those who don't agree with you?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;564555]But are you an "expert"? In the same vein do you consider yourself smarter than everyone else (we'll limit the realm to this site)? Or just smarter than those who don't agree with you?[/quote]


Yes, I am an expert and the smartest person on this site. Certainly smarter than you. I hope you find this answer satisfactory.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564544]If you must know the truth I am but a humble horse without winkers who can play chess or checkers at a moments notice.[/quote]"I'm your huckleberry." :duel:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx1TWk-V4P0"]YouTube - I'm your Huckleberry[/ame]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564565]Yes, I am an expert and the smartest person on this site. Certainly smarter than you. I hope you find this answer satisfactory.[/quote]

Attention Please. Note that I am no longer the biggest asshole on this site, because no post has ever been assholier than this.

I'm impressed, saden. You and me should grab a beer sometime and pull chairs out from under old ladies when they're trying to sit down.

Re: Obama Care
 

^^ Saden stepped into the "assholier than thou" role many threads ago.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Schneed10;564575]Attention Please. Note that I am no longer the biggest asshole on this site, because no post has ever been assholier than this.

I'm impressed, saden. You and me should grab a beer sometime and pull chairs out from under old ladies when they're trying to sit down.[/quote]

How else I'm I suppose to answer a silly question? You're still the champ man, you still have the biggest in the block...I'm not worthy :headbange

I'll grab a beer with you any time but I don't know about pulling chairs out from under old ladies. I would much rather hit on waitresses and trash TTL.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;564576]^^ Saden stepped into the "assholier than thou" role many threads ago.[/quote]

I always had one foot in the door but it took a big push from many folks on this site to get me over the line. So many people to thank so little time. Thank you all for all the love and support.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;564504]Obviously if someone wants to spend $$$ on a treatment that is expensive and won't work no insurer private or gov't will cover it. And yes, the CER concept is used in private healthcare, but not to deny coverage of normal procedures. If a procedure isn't covered "in-network" on a plan there is the option of going "out-of-network" to get the procedure but with less of a percentage covered. CER boards are used in many countries with socialized medicine to deny certain treatments or to deny treatment to individuals based on age or other factors. I don't want a gov't bureacrat between me and my doctor or other medical professional. When I'm a bit older, I don't want some GS-9 deciding whether I'm able to get an MRI, or heart valve replacement, or other treatment in a timely manner. I just had my gall bladder taken out, not a big deal but over $30K without insurance, cost me about $ 2K. Whenever I ate anything I was in severe pain for 3-4 hours. If I had to wait for this surgery for two weeks or 1 month, that would've been absurd.

Once a government run insurance program is in place with less benefits and no profit motive, it will drive the costs of private insurance up to be unaffordable or will bring service levels way down. Let's say a family of four with both parents working is bringing in $ 80K / yr. They go with the gov't program as the private insurance will likely go to over $ 1K per month. Their child needs a procedure, recommended by their doctor, which the government will not authorize because it doesn't meet the recommendations of the CER board. The procedure costs $ 40K....yeah I've got a problem with that. When currently that same family is paying about $ 300-500 per month for much better and timely coverage that will allow that procedure.

Again, our health care system isn't perfect, but it's the best in the world. Why do people come here from countries with socialized medicine to get procedures done? We need to fix some things but not put another massive government program in place. If you want to provide vouchers or tax credits for low income families that can't afford health insurance that can be discussed, but the Kennedy/Wrangle/Obama vision is flat out wrong and will be extremely destructive to our healthcare system and the federal budget.

EDIT: As a small business owner, if I'm forced to provide health care benefits to my employees (or pay a fine), who will wind up paying for it. My customers will, I'll have to raise prices. That could actually result in a reduction in monthly revenue if people don't want to pay higher prices and force me into the red. Or, I'll have to cut my staff down to an absolute minimum, that will be at least 2-3 jobs lost. Obama can count those in his jobs saved/created numbers. We're a small family owned restaurant, under 20 employees. Other restaurants like mine will be in the same position, some will close and you'll have more of the chain restaurants to visit (oh joy). But Obama is supposed to be for the little guys right?[/quote]

Very good post. Admittedly, I'm not very well versed on health care, but your case study helps shed some light for me. I'm fortunate enough to be in perfect health, and I have no problem paying my $160/month premium to Blue Cross/Blue Sheild. It's easy for a 30 year old non-smoker with no history of health issues to find great coverage at an affordable price. I don't have kids yet, and aside from the occasional physical, I have had no reason to visit a doctor pretty much ever.

Of all the major issues, domestic and international, I would say health care is the one I have given the least amount of attention. That's going to change.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564545]You need to go further up the conversation chain and look at your statement.[/quote]
Once again a liberal makes a statement then refuses to answer the question.

Re: Obama Care
 

I'm sorry but had some friends come over last night to finish off a project and missed the Obama Care speech but I did hear a few things from his speech on the news this morning. Did I hear it wrong or did he really say that old people should just take some pain pills and die? Man, my grandmother had open heart surgery at 82 and lived a healthy life in her own place until the ripe old age of 98 but I guess under Obama care they could have knocked her off at around age 83 to save a few bucks.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564606]Once again a liberal makes a statement then refuses to answer the question.[/quote]

I don't know that you can lay that solely at liberals feet, although Saden is a master of it. The internet really does encourage a mentality of just ignoring what you don't want to deal with, and cherry picking points.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564607]I'm sorry but had some friends come over last night to finish off a project and missed the Obama Care speech but I did hear a few things from his speech on the news this morning. Did I hear it wrong or did he really say that old people should just take some pain pills and die? Man, my grandmother had open heart surgery at 82 and lived a healthy life in her own place until the ripe old age of 98 but I guess under Obama care they could have knocked her off at around age 83 to save a few bucks.[/quote]

I guess that's how you interpreted it

[url=http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/HealthCare/Story?id=7920012&page=1]TRANSCRIPT: 'Questions for the President: Prescription for America' - ABC News[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;564608]I don't know that you can lay that solely at liberals feet, although Saden is a master of it. The internet really does encourage a mentality of just ignoring what you don't want to deal with, and cherry picking points.[/quote]

Unfortunately, the internet also encourages a mentality of ignorant people wanting to make a point at every opportunity, even when they have nothing worthwhile to say.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;564475]No we do not. Public education is a state/local responsibility (as it should be). Approximately 6% of public school funding comes from the Fed.

If a state wishes to provide free health care for its citizens, by all means go ahead. As long as that state is only taking a minimal percentage of financial support (under 6%) from the Fed to fund this and the program doesn't overlap with programs that already exist (Medicare/Medicaid). Also when the state goes belly up (CA) the Feds don't bail the state out unless the state reduces programs/services and pays the Fed back with interest in under 10 years.



[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/30288-obama-care-2.html#post564312[/URL][/quote]


I concur, and that is what I was trying to get at. However I do not think that it should be up to the states to decide. They should have to fund health care just like they have to provide public education. I agree that it shouldn't be overly Federally funded, but it should be Federally mandated.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=SmootSmack;564614]I guess that's how you interpreted it

[URL="http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/HealthCare/Story?id=7920012&page=1"]TRANSCRIPT: 'Questions for the President: Prescription for America' - ABC News[/URL][/quote]
Well after reading the doctors question to Obama I'm still thinking that my grandmother under Obama Care might not have had a choice in having that operation. He danced around the question and I would have done the same thing if I knew my plan would at some point cut off care to the elderly. I do agree that at some point the treatment given to some people is a waist of money but do we now want goverment playing God. Heck, I thought the dems wanted God out of goverment. LOL

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Angry;564617]I concur, and that is what I was trying to get at. However I do not think that it should be up to the states to decide. They should have to fund health care just like they have to provide public education. I agree that it shouldn't be overly Federally funded, but it should be Federally mandated.[/quote]
I think we're definitely on the same wave-length, we would just need to hammer out cost details to get to the best cost/value solution. It's funny how within a few posts reasonable people can come to pretty close agreement on most things......maybe the folks inside 1600 PA Ave. and on the Hill should pay attention to this site LOL.