Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=SmootSmack;583459]I have a gut feeling that one of these four guys is going to get cut-Yoder, Sellers, Rock, Betts

I'm not advocating it, just a gut feeling.

I'll throw in Scott Burely and Doug Dutch just to feel more secure in my gut feeling :)[/quote]

I would not be surprised to see Yoder go. Didn't Agnone(sp) have a decent camp?

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=SmootSmack;583459]I have a gut feeling that one of these four guys is going to get cut-Yoder, Sellers, Rock, Betts

I'm not advocating it, just a gut feeling.

I'll throw in Scott Burely and Doug Dutch just to feel more secure in my gut feeling :)[/quote]I'm still not sure what Yoder has ever done well, personally. I know he catches the occasional TD pass, but he just seems like a liability whenever he's on the field, and that includes special teams. On plays where he doesn't get called for holding, he usually ends the play on the ground somewhere.

He does seem to be a very likable guy though, and I guess sometimes, that's really all you ask for from your third TE.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

DMV, just to warn you, you've stepped into a debate with probably the smartest guy on the site (GTripp), someone who is willing to debate till he's blue in the face (CRedskins), and easily the biggest asshole on the site (me).

Fair warning.

You've done nothing but make yourself look foolish here. You claimed that Rock's stats were terrible, I showed you that he is consistently among the best in kick returns, using incontrovertible facts. Then you dismiss statistics as dorky and irrelevant.

You've then indirectly compared Marcus Mason to Joshua Cribbs and Darren Sproles by suggesting that we choose between Rock and those elite return men. Needless to say this is idiotic, because those are Browns and Chargers, not Redskins. We are debating Mason vs Rock, not Rock vs the league.

Concurrent to this absurd analysis of yours, you continue to dismiss punt and kick coverage skills as a matter of importance. You also fail to answer my call to explain what skill set Mason adds to the team that does not already exist on the roster. So in addition to looking foolish, you appear to have little to no understanding of the NFL.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=SmootSmack;583459]I have a gut feeling that one of these four guys is going to get cut-Yoder, Sellers, Rock, Betts

I'm not advocating it, just a gut feeling.

I'll throw in Scott Burely and Doug Dutch just to feel more secure in my gut feeling :)[/quote]
There is zero GD chance Sellers is getting cut. Same for Betts. They don't award him the 3rd down spot for hard work and approach and then cut his ass for no reason. That would be down right sh*tty of them.

Now Yoder and Rock...who knows.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

I am going to reiterate something from earlier in this thread.

I am damn glad our biggest concerns right now involve our 3rd string RB.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=FRPLG;583476]I am going to reiterate something from earlier in this thread.

I am damn glad our biggest concerns right now involve our 3rd string RB.[/quote]

Agreed, I said the same thing earlier too. Which is why I find this whole discussion amusing :)

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=FRPLG;583476]I am going to reiterate something from earlier in this thread.

I am damn glad our biggest concerns right now involve our 3rd string RB.[/quote]

I wouldn't say that, I'm quite worried about our starting secondary. I think we'll miss Springs a lot more than we think.

Without a healthy Carlos Rogers we'll have Justin Tryon playing a pretty important nickel role, which I'm absolutely not comfortable with.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=Schneed10;583489]I wouldn't say that, I'm quite worried about our starting secondary. I think we'll miss Springs a lot more than we think.

Without a healthy Carlos Rogers we'll have Justin Tryon playing a pretty important nickel role, which I'm absolutely not comfortable with.[/quote]

No I agree in terms of circumstances. As far as the roster goes though we don't have huge gaping holes.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

Gotta keep Rock and Sellers. Now if we could just find a punt returner...

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;583494]Gotta keep Rock and Sellers. Now if we could just find a punt returner...[/quote]

Dorsey!

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=Lotus;583496]Dorsey![/quote]

Josh Cribbs! ... oh wait.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

If we cut Colt, who is going to wear the tights and the visor?

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=Lotus;583501]If we cut Colt, who is going to wear the tights and the visor?[/quote]

Portis? He wears everything else.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;583356]Aside from Vinny almost assuring that Mason/Aldridge/Dorsey would make the roster, he and Zorn both indicated that there are some veteran(s) who may be cut that will really surprise a lot of fans. I'm thinking this could be referring to some combination of Wynn/Cartwright/Betts.[/quote]

I could see that too. I don't see why they wouldn't try to trade Betts now if that's the situation. Wynn would just retire, Rock will draw some interest if there are no strings, but Betts would be worth a lower round draft pick IMO.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

So if Yoder and Colt are cut, who's Cooley going to hang out with?

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;583522]I could see that too. I don't see why they wouldn't try to trade Betts now if that's the situation. Wynn would just retire, Rock will draw some interest if there are no strings, but Betts would be worth a lower round draft pick IMO.[/quote]

Yep, I could see the skins trading Betts or Cartwright for low round picks. I just don't see Wynn making the roster, I haven't seen him at all during pre-season and would rather keep Buzbee or Jackson who are younger.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;583526]Yep, I could see the skins trading Betts or Cartwright for low round picks. I just don't see Wynn making the roster, I haven't seen him at all during pre-season and would rather keep Buzbee or Jackson who are younger.[/quote]

Any teams right now who desperately need a RB?

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=Ruhskins;583527]Any teams right now who desperately need a RB?[/quote]

Not that I can see.

Doubt there's much of a market for backup RB's.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=Ruhskins;583527]Any teams right now who desperately need a RB?[/quote]

We'll find out after tonight.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=Schneed10;583489]I wouldn't say that, I'm quite worried about our starting secondary. I think we'll miss Springs a lot more than we think.

Without a healthy Carlos Rogers we'll have Justin Tryon playing a pretty important nickel role, which I'm absolutely not comfortable with.[/quote]

I've been feeling the same way all camp. Going in I thought the secondary was deep, but I was likely thinking that Barnes would look good as a nickle just cause he's a 3rd round pick.

Now w/CR ailing a little I wonder how well he's going to play. He's a guy that can be pretty erratic, depending on the circumstances. I don't know how well he'll play if not close to 100%. Tryon scares me & Smoot is a nickle at this point in his career.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=freddyg12;583543]I've been feeling the same way all camp. Going in I thought the secondary was deep, but I was likely thinking that Barnes would look good as a nickle just cause he's a 3rd round pick.

Now w/CR ailing a little I wonder how well he's going to play. He's a guy that can be pretty erratic, depending on the circumstances. I don't know how well he'll play if not close to 100%. Tryon scares me & Smoot is a nickle at this point in his career.[/quote]

Ultimately what worries me isn't depth. Really no other teams in the entire league have significantly more depth than we do. My problem is that Blache just doesn't seem to embrace the concept of utilizing players based on their strengths. He has a scheme and he wants everyone to run it. No changing things up to fit personnel. You can see it during games and in general. How often do we get trampled on for an entire quarter or more before he finally makes an adjustment. It's like he has decided that the scheme comes above all else. And the adjustmenst usually work but he's so damn stubborn. It's clear that he thinks that players just need to do better executing his scheme rather than him trying to make it easier for them to execute. I like Blache but he does have some drawbacks.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

I'm much more worried about the linebackers than the secondary.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=SmootSmack;583549]I'm much more worried about the linebackers than the secondary.[/quote]

I'm feeling you there too.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

I don't know that a team would trade for Betts at this point. I mean, if he's available right now, there's a good chance you're going to cut him, so why would any team give compensation to the Skins to get him.

I don't see Betts being a guy who would garner more than, "we'll make a run if he becomes a free agent, but we're not giving up picks/a player for him." Unless, of course you were trading for another player who was about to get cut. Sort of like the Taylor Jacobs for Mike Rumph deal a little while ago. (Before people react, I believe Betts and Taylor are not comparable, Betts is a contributor and far better, just saying that the trade scenarios would be similar).

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

Fletch has not had the best preseason, but I think it's way too early to assert that he's lost a step. Orakpo does get sealed really easily against the run, and it will probably take 10-12 games to get that ironed out completely. McIntosh is the big question mark.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=FRPLG;583547]Ultimately what worries me isn't depth. Really no other teams in the entire league have significantly more depth than we do. My problem is that Blache just doesn't seem to embrace the concept of utilizing players based on their strengths. He has a scheme and he wants everyone to run it. No changing things up to fit personnel. You can see it during games and in general. How often do we get trampled on for an entire quarter or more before he finally makes an adjustment. It's like he has decided that the scheme comes above all else. And the adjustmenst usually work but he's so damn stubborn. It's clear that he thinks that players just need to do better executing his scheme rather than him trying to make it easier for them to execute. I like Blache but he does have some drawbacks.[/quote]

I have my doubts about Blache as well. His blitz packages and that passive, off the line of scrimmage, coverage philosophy gets on my nerves.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

On ESPN980, theyre speculating Cartwright and/or ARE will be the surprise veteran cut(s) Vinny and Zorn said may be made.

ARE isnt cuttable until next offseason from a cap perspective (about 4M then), but he's certainly not cuttable now. Besides, it wouldnt even make sense to cut him from a playing perspective, as there arent really any other receivers battling for the 5th WR spot with Mitchell.

Cartwright, on the other hand, makes some sense. My bold prediction is that he is cut and Mason AND Dorsey/Aldridge make the roster in his place, OR Aldrige makes the roster and we go with 10 OL instead of 9, with (E) Williams making the squad as the 10th OL and backup center. Yes, I know montgommery is a backup C/G but I think the skins want to keep two guys who can play center on our roster so they can compete to replace Rabach next year.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;583560]On ESPN980, theyre speculating Cartwright and/or ARE will be the surprise veteran cut(s) Vinny and Zorn said may be made.

ARE isnt cuttable until next offseason from a cap perspective (about 4M then), but he's certainly not cuttable now. Besides, it wouldnt even make sense to cut him from a playing perspective, as there arent really any other receivers battling for the 5th WR spot with Mitchell.

Cartwright, on the other hand, makes some sense. My bold prediction is that he is cut and Mason AND Dorsey/Aldridge make the roster in his place.[/quote]

Did they really say ARE was a roster cut possibility? How do some of these people even have jobs? As you pointed out it's not at all possible because of the salary cap ramifications so why would they even say it?

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

Too much player versus player rather than roles we need filled in this discussion. I'd like to talk about things this team needs and if we can get some of those things out of the people who are currently on our roster or if we need to go outside of the organization and pick up or trade for some new players to fill those roles. The following list of roles is not necessarily in order of importance to the success of the team.

Offensive Tackle - Frankly, I just can't fathom how Vinny can believe that we're OK at that position. It's a near certainty that Chris Samuels is going to miss some time with his bad knee and right now it looks like they're counting on Mike Williams and Jeremy Bridges as the backups at OT. Bad move. I don't think Williams is ready to play yet and Bridges is really a G. We need to make a trade, if possible, or pick up a veteran OT for insurance.

Punt Returner - If Dorsey can catch the ball and not fumble, then we need to keep him as our PR. He has a chance to break a couple and to consistently give us better field position than you-know-who. I don't think of him as a RB but rather as a PR/KR. There are ways to fit him into the roster. For example, some people think that there is a final roster spot at DE that is up for grabs between Wynn, Buzbee, and Jackson. Why? Jarmon, Orakpo, Alexander, and Wilson can all play DE, so there's room for Dorsey.

Fullback - Somebody has to back up Big Mike, so either Eddie Williams or Todd Yoder must be on the roster (unless Rock is moved back to FB, which is unlikely). Any roster that doesn't have either Williams or Yoder on it isn't going to fly. Both of them block and catch. Neither of them is a runner. Yoder also plays TE. Pick one.

Running Back - Betts, Mason, and Rock are essentially the same style of RB. Keeping all three doesn't make sense. The two things we could really use at RB are a goal line and short yardage specialist and a change of pace/breakaway threat. Alridge might make sense on this roster as the change of pace back and I'd have no problem cutting both Mason and Rock if we could replace them with Alridge and a dependable short yardage specialist.

Placekicker - Oh, Jeez, Not Suisham again! And the other guy hasn't even been able to beat out Suisham. I have little confidence in either of these guys and our kickoffs are still coming up short. I hope Vinny is keeping an eye out for someone who can do the job.

Third String QB - Really, who the hell cares? We're not going to be counting on either of these guys, so choose your favorite or we can pick up someone else.

I feel pretty good about the rest of the roles on the team.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=GTripp0012;583557]Fletch has not had the best preseason, but I think it's way too early to assert that he's lost a step. Orakpo does get sealed really easily against the run, and it will probably take 10-12 games to get that ironed out completely. McIntosh is the big question mark.[/quote]

I have this nagging fear that Fletch will be afflicted with Cris Dishman Syndrome (Dishman, you may not recall, was one of the league's premiere corners in 1997 and then just dropped in 1998)

I do have question marks about Rocky

Love what Orakpo has done, but he is a rookie in a new position

Glenn and Henson (assuming one makes the team) are two more rookies

Chris Wilson to me is still looking like a pass rusher. Dropping back in coverage as a linebacker? He's not there yet

Robert Thomas, assuming he makes the team, is a 1st round bust. I think he can contribute but he is what he is

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

I dont think they know JACK about the Salary Cap.

Theyre also speculating Anthony Montgommery could be cut to make room for Dixon. I hadnt thought about that, but i'd certainly hope we'd try to trade Monty before just cutting him. That said, Monty has always struggled with consistency and Dixon won't last 10 minutes on the practice squad. He's younger, has played very well for a rookie and the coaches are impressed with his work ethic. The more i think about it, the more i like the idea.

Fans calling in are speculating its Collins (which would be a good idea from a long-term perspective but completely moronic in the short term), Betts (too good in pass protection to cut for me), and Sellers (he's unhappy with his contract and getting up there in years... still, who could replace him?), and Todd Yoder (we could go with only two TEs) to make room for another player and keep a TE on the PS.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=Schneed10;583464]DMV, just to warn you, you've stepped into a debate with probably the smartest guy on the site (GTripp), someone who is willing to debate till he's blue in the face (CRedskins), and easily the biggest asshole on the site (me).

Fair warning.

You've done nothing but make yourself look foolish here. You claimed that Rock's stats were terrible, I showed you that he is consistently among the best in kick returns, using incontrovertible facts. Then you dismiss statistics as dorky and irrelevant.

You've then indirectly compared Marcus Mason to Joshua Cribbs and Darren Sproles by suggesting that we choose between Rock and those elite return men. Needless to say this is idiotic, because those are Browns and Chargers, not Redskins. We are debating Mason vs Rock, not Rock vs the league.

Concurrent to this absurd analysis of yours, you continue to dismiss punt and kick coverage skills as a matter of importance. You also fail to answer my call to explain what skill set Mason adds to the team that does not already exist on the roster. So in addition to looking foolish, you appear to have little to no understanding of the NFL.[/quote]


Umm first your foolish. because your really not that intelligent. Posting stats is not intelligence and I did not say they were irrelevant. I said, "[B]STATS ARE IMPORTANT BUT NOT THE ONLY FACTOR[/B]" (sorry for the caps. I have to do this for the illiterate). Can you read that.

The comparison to Cribbs, Hester was to make a point. Just because you are [B]6th on the stats list doesn't mean you are the best player there[/B] ( I think Hester was 28th and Cribbs might have been 12th) as far as talent an potential. If you think Rock is better than Cribbs or Hester your a intelligence is questionable. That what the comparison was related to stats. If you think thomas couldn't take his place your not very smart either.

Dude are you drinking? I didn't say his stats were terrible. [B]Please post where I said that[/B]. I just told you to post the stats. Like I couldn't go to NFL.com and get the stats myself or if I didn't know. Just wanted you to show that you just like to argue and that the only way you can do that is with stats not intelligent debate. You are putting words in my mouth. I think you are so self righteous you dont even bother to read other comments.

As far as the dorky comments. If the only thing you can do is post stats and say Rock is a good tackler on special teams. Yeah you are a dork. Because if Thomas, Moss or Betts had his return attempts I dont think they would do worse than him. Moss and Thomas I would put money on would do better. So to fabricate things..really does make you an ass and look like as dork.

I am not dismissing punt and kick coverage skills. But our ST suck. Another thing Rock doesn't make all the tackles every play.

Rock is almost 30 yrs old. He only plays one unit on the team. Hester plays WR and Cribbs does also. That was my comparison. Not that they are on our team. How did you pull that out your ass with your head fitting so snug. If we can keep him and keep another RB (whether Mason, Aldridge or Dorsey) it might be acceptable. If not he needs to be cut.

As far as your warning. Who gives a flying ___!!

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=wilsowilso;583561]Did they really say ARE was a roster cut possibility? How do some of these people even have jobs? As you pointed out it's not at all possible because of the salary cap ramifications so why would they even say it?[/quote]

We cut Jason Taylor didn't we and took a cap hit? Why not ARE?

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;583567]We cut Jason Taylor didn't we and took a cap hit? Why not ARE?[/quote]

Do you really need an answer to this question?

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=wilsowilso;583568]Do you really need an answer to this question?[/quote]

Have Vinny answer that question he's the one that does the cuts, not me.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=wilsowilso;583568]Do you really need an answer to this question?[/quote]

I think he's being sarcastic. [EDIT].... Nevermind. Lol

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;583569]Have Vinny answer that question he's the one that does the cuts, not me.[/quote]

We had the space to cut Taylor, but we don't have much space left and the cap hit for ARE would be huge this year. It's just not possible.

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

This may have been posted already

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/jason-reid/making-a-case-for-rock-cartwri.html]Redskins Insider - Making a Case for Rock Cartwright[/url]

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=SBXVII;583419]I'll be honest with you. It doesn't even have to be Mason so long as they have a young talent to bring up through the ranks. but I do take exception to people saying blatently ...Mason sucks. If he did the team would not have gone to the lengths they have to get him back. However since stats are important to some please locate Mason and Cartwright on this stat board which I feel is more accurate;

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=RUSHING&conference=null&season=2009&seasonType=PRE&d-447263-s=RUSHING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1"]NFL Stats: by Player Category[/URL]

I'll save you some time. Mason is 33rd on the list of rushers and Cartwright is 99th.

or try this one...

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2009&archive=false&seasonType=PRE&Submit=Go&qualified=true&conference=null&tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=KICK_RETURNS&d-447263-p=2&experience=null"]NFL Stats: by Player Category[/URL]

The highest Skin on the Return list is Thomas at 23 and Cartwright is 68. My point is stats can be manipulated for whatever purpose. Since Rock has not been used as much this preseason in order to look at others lets look at last yrs stats....

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2008&archive=false&seasonType=REG&Submit=Go&qualified=true&conference=null&tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=RUSHING&d-447263-p=5&experience=null"]NFL Stats: by Player Category[/URL]

Rock was 225 on the list of Rushers for last yr. Obviously his leadership skills and tackling are carrying over to his rushing yrds. If he's such a good tackler why doesn't he fill in as Safety. I mean the team definitly needs a sure tackler in the back field.

Rock may have been 6th on ESPN's total yrds for the 08 season as a KR but NFL.com has him tied at 23 for average yrds 25.6 yrds average for every KR.

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=null&statisticCategory=KICK_RETURNS&season=2008&seasonType=REG&experience=null&tabSeq=0&qualified=true&Submit=Go"]NFL Stats: by Player Category[/URL][/quote]


Another post related to stats..

Re: Vinny tips his hand on the final 53
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;583569]Have Vinny answer that question he's the one that does the cuts, not me.[/quote]

The answer is that we can't afford it. It isn't happening. It's not even financially possible. I guess it is possible if we also cut 2 or 3 other guys that count only a base salary against the cap.