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[quote=Mattyk72;617421]It would help if the offense had audibles to begin with. Can't fault JC for that.[/quote]

Word. I didn't mean to put it on Jason. It's the scheme.

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[quote=The Goat;617428]This is a really, really good thread IMO...lots of quality discussion in the midst of a ruined franchise so props to everyone. I'm never again assuming lil D will learn a lesson and make solid decisions as the real GM, but if luck has it we somehow start down the right track this is what I think it should look like:

Build our offense through the draft next year. We likely will have the 4 or 5 overall pick as St. Louis, KC, Tampa, Detroit and ourselves suck the bottom of the NFL aquarium in '09. We should get the 2nd best overall LT there as a no-brainer pick. That high 2nd round pick is perfect for a starting center...Rabach must never play again after this season. [B]The best RB available in the 3rd rd makes sense[/B], but if there's another quality o-lineman available I would grab him and wait on the RB.

I'm assuming we bring in a legit WR coach to develop our investments at the position. The next big question mark is QB. I definitely think Jason is gone after this season. I would like to see us bring in the best veteran QB available to compete w/ Colt for the starting spot. I definitely wouldn't invest a high draft pick there...just doesn't make sense.[/quote]

We don't have the 3rd pick cuz we used it up for Jarmon.. However, it's proving to be right choice so far..

Beside, pretty much I agree with you.. Although I would want retain Campbell and still sign someone else to push for #1 spot.. It's better to have more than two choices..

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[quote=GridIron26;617436]We don't have the 3rd pick cuz we used it up for Jarmon.. However, it's proving to be right choice so far..

Beside, pretty much I agree with you.. Although I would want retain Campbell and still sign someone else to push for #1 spot.. It's better to have more than two choices..[/quote]

Yep I forgot about Jarmon...jeez hope he can replace Daniels next year.

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[quote=The Goat;617439]Yep I forgot about Jarmon...jeez hope he can replace Daniels next year.[/quote]

Hasn't he already done this? The guy is everywhere.

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[quote=sportscurmudgeon;617171]Pocket$ Straight:

If Williams and Jones are so competent, how come 32 NFL teams allowed them to languish in a state of idleness for several years? Are you telling me that no team in the league faced serious problems with the competency of its OL in the last three years? Or maybe the Skins' FO was the only organization smart enough to track down these lost souls?


These guys were unmitigated busts as high draft pick. Now MAYBE they have reformed some of their habits such that they MIGHT become serviceable NFL players. But to see these guys turning into foundation pieces for an NFL team probably requires a visit from the Skins' Fairy Godmother.[/quote]

Let me summarize my previous posts.

1st pick next year - Premier tackle
2nd pick next year - Best available lineman T G or Center

Free agency - Best O-line available preferably a tackle and possibly even another starter C or guard

How was Levi Jones a bust? He started roughly 90 games and was on a few good teams. Plus he earned an extension. You cannot intelligently comment on Jones until he gets on the field. He can't be worse than Heyer who almost lost JC for a season his rookie year, was dogshit last year and continues to be dogshit.

Williams is in the bust category but I see him more as depth and possibly RG. He has been playing better recently btw. He looks a lot better than Heyer. Why did 32 teams pass on him? Because he was 450. No one expected him to get to his current state.

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[quote=freddyg12;616919]If we spend a 1st on an OT, I would think he'd eventually be moved to LT, but yeah if Levi could hold that down in the meantime it would certainly make rebuilding easier.

I think 3 new starters is realistic, 1 in fa & 2 in the draft, assuming that high picks are used for o line. I just wonder if they won't use the 1st or 2nd on a rb. I would love to see CJ Spiller in b & g, but would hate to see him taken in the 1st.[/quote]

Wow I was thinking same on CJ Spiller. Man maybe get him in the 3rd or 4th not sure he last that he would last that long. We have to draft O-Line because we can not run or pass protect with this group now.

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[quote=Longtimefan;616995]While some have paused to make mockery of Williams, when you look at what we have as far as OL is concerned, I'm rather glad he rounded into shape to be able to help us as much as he has. Without him we'd be in even worse shape.

Some thought he would not play at all this season.[/quote]

I agree Mike Williams is getting his 1st taste of action in almost 2 1/2 yrs. He worked his butt off to lose the weight and now he is getting into game shape. He maybe just the guy we need for next season after this season. if he can stay healthy and keep the weight down he for sure is a insuance policy for the RG or RT position.

[quote=skinster;617086]I don't remember ever getting a top 5 QB. Especially one we don't have to give up draft picks to get.

Do you not agree that a QB is a necessity to succeed in this league? How do you recommend we go about getting one? Stick with JC? That isn't working. Get a FA QB? Who that is going to be reliable?[/quote]

Ok let me tell you this, if and when a team drafts a QB as a top 10 pick if he is a bust your franchise is set back for 3 to 4 years. Teams that spend high picks on QB tend to give them every chance to be the starter no matter how poor he plays IE.... JaMarcus Russell, Alex Smith, Brady Quinn, and David Carr. I say we draft a QB late in the 4th or 5th and try to sign Jackson(Vikings,Carr/Giants) or resign JC or 1 yr with a upgraded line.

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[quote=Trample the Elderly;616980]I told y'all that Raback was on his last legs, and that he should've been moved to guard. I told y'all we should have draft Mack, Loadholt, Oher, and or Robinson. Oh you're stupid Tramp, huh, you don't draft a center in the first round. You mean you're not happy that we picked up a DE with our first and with our third next year? Chaz Reinhardt and Deb'n Clark are going to step up. Stretch Armstrong is going to pull through.

Priorities! I knew this was going to happen. I knew it. You think this is bad? Our defense can handle Filthy compared to what's coming. Wait until New Orleans and Dallas. eff it . . . .[/quote]

You weren't the only one saying that.

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[quote=Trample the Elderly;617082]This team has been doing what you suggest for YEARS![/quote]
we've only drafted qb 1st round 3 times since 1990 and JC was at the ass end of the round

I'm not saying that it's the answer though

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[quote=skinster;617136]I get it. I know the O-Line is really important. Im just saying that a qb is more important than ONE O-lineman. What is the better combo, Joe Thomas blocking for Derek Anderson or the guy that replaced Tony Ugoh blocking for Peyton Manning?
O-line needs to be developed over time, we do need to invest in it. But while we have the shot to possibly get a QB of the future, let's take it. We can pick up O-linemen with other picks in the draft and possibly in FA, while that is unlikely to do with a QB. I do not believe our problems (on the O-line and elsewhere) can be fixed in one season. We need to build to the future, and the best single starting piece we can get to do that is a QB.[/quote]

We're not ONE o-lineman away

we're 2-3 from formidable, 4 from baller

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[quote=Mattyk72;617138]It all starts up front.

Simple as that, a new QB isn't going to solve anything until we can protect and open holes for the running game.[/quote]
I agree. Eventually a WCO will open more to the pass, but our run isn't even respectable, that's why Rock got that 11 yard carry last night.

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[quote=skinster;617168]Mike williams is not an effective gaurd. Levi Jones might be an adequate band aid to one position. Two good draft picks with one to two good free agents is too much to bank on. We can't naturally assume we will hit on our players that we choose. Too many "what ifs" and not enough time to develop chemistry. It seems to be a one in a hundred shot. Realistically we can get an adequate O-line next year if we disregard all other positions, but would be only semi-fixing one of many problems.[/quote]
You sure do have a lot of insight on this team that the rest of us aren't privy to.

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[quote=GTripp0012;617349]Well, I sort of understand what he's trying to do, but if the argument is that a coach is responsible for putting players in a position to succeed, it's hard to argue that he's doing a good job.

You have Heyer, a decent RT who the team is trying to turn into a LT with little success. You have Rinehart, who is riding the bench for no really good reason, while Montgomery plays (terribly). You have Dockery and Rabach, who are the status quo at LG, and C, the common links on a bad line. And how much of the blame for Mike Williams should sit with him. Mike's been decent given the expectations, but that's not helping us win ball games.

Bugel shouldn't be expected to fix all the problems that are ailing us, especially when the backs are missing so many blocks, but this line is no better than it was 4 weeks ago, and that's a problem.[/quote]

Is it Bugel picking who starts where? It's hard to say where any of the decisions come from in this organization.

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[quote=Mattyk72;617421]It would help if the offense had audibles to begin with. Can't fault JC for that.[/quote]
Agreed big time. You could see the blitz coming and not even a change in protection.. where the hell does that start? Is Rabach still calling the protection?

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[quote=Chico23231;617391]Sorry was out, yes agree more than 1 year to rebuild. Oline should be the first to receive attention in the rebuilding process. To your question of how to get a QB: Im not in favor of drafting one this coming up year, but I feel to effectively start a rebuilding process will be with to rid our offense of players who has leveled out, peaked, stagnated etc...whatever you want to call it over last several years starting with the guy who has the ball in his hands the most, JC. There will be vets availible and I prefer somebody else at this point. Some guys just need a change of scenery...JC may be that way as well...so while we both understand this offense may take a couple years, getting a vet or guy who hasnt succeeded (D. Anderson, Brady Quinn, etc.) to get under center I wouldnt see as taking a substantial risk (unless we give a stupid ass contract).[B] I just cant deal with JC anymore, im officially done with him. But before we can get there we need a new GM and an established NFL coach.[/B][/quote]

This is where we disagree, but I can understand where you're coming from. I don't think the Skins should draft a QB high or trade picks for one. If there's a guy out there, go get him. However, if he's not proven, I would force him to compete with Colt and JC (who isn't a free agent under the new system).

I have no problem with replacing Jason with the future of the team or just a holdover to get us through rebuilding, but I'm not really in favor of change for the sake of change. I think that if you believe you can upgrade the QB position in the offseason without sacrificing anything, you have to do it, but I don't think you can go get Vince Young or a Jamarcus Russell type and think that everything is solved. If those are the options (they may be) then keeping JC and having him compete with Campbell might be the best option.

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^please no Vince or Jamarcus, def someone else. Agree to disagree, but fully supporting the Rebuilding Effort as well. HTTR

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[quote=jdlea;617867]This is where we disagree, but I can understand where you're coming from. I don't think the Skins should draft a QB high or trade picks for one. If there's a guy out there, go get him. However, if he's not proven, I would force him to compete with Colt and JC (who isn't a free agent under the new system).

I have no problem with replacing Jason with the future of the team or just a holdover to get us through rebuilding, but I'm not really in favor of change for the sake of change. I think that if you believe you can upgrade the QB position in the offseason without sacrificing anything, you have to do it, but I don't think you can go get Vince Young or a Jamarcus Russell type and think that everything is solved. If those are the options (they may be) then keeping JC and having him compete with Campbell might be the best option.[/quote]

We could draft o-line in the 1st and 2nd rounds and then go QB in the 4th round. What do you think?

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[quote=Lotus;617896]We could draft o-line in the 1st and 2nd rounds and then go QB in the 4th round. What do you think?[/quote]

That sounds like the plan. Another scenario would be to trade down and also get a 3rd or 4th rounder.

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;617901]That sounds like the plan. Another scenario would be to trade down and also get a 3rd or 4th rounder.[/quote]

Good idea!

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[quote=skins89moss;617510]Ok let me tell you this, if and when a team drafts a QB as a top 10 pick if he is a bust your franchise is set back for 3 to 4 years. Teams that spend high picks on QB tend to give them every chance to be the starter no matter how poor he plays IE.... JaMarcus Russell, Alex Smith, Brady Quinn, and David Carr. I say we draft a QB late in the 4th or 5th and try to sign Jackson(Vikings,Carr/Giants) or resign JC or 1 yr with a upgraded line.[/quote]


This is absolutely correct and why I am not even going to pay attention to the quarterbacks that are coming out.

I disagree with those who say we are 2 or 3 years from being competitive and that we need to blow it up. Atlanta and Miami turned into playoff teams after terrible seasons. We need to blow our O-line up, that is it. And I believe the line can be turned around in one offseason if we draft well.

The D-line was turned into a strength in one year, there is no reason that they cannot do the same on the other side.

Btw...I will be so happy when Randal-Fail and Heyer are gone.

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;617926]This is absolutely correct and why I am not even going to pay attention to the quarterbacks that are coming out.

I disagree with those who say we are 2 or 3 years from being competitive and that we need to blow it up. Atlanta and Miami turned into playoff teams after terrible seasons. We need to blow our O-line up, that is it. And I believe the line can be turned around in one offseason if we draft well.

The D-line was turned into a strength in one year, there is no reason that they cannot do the same on the other side.

Btw...I will be so happy when Randal-Fail and Heyer are gone.[/quote]

Amen brother!! Well said.

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I agree with you, JC is running for his life!

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;617926]This is absolutely correct and why I am not even going to pay attention to the quarterbacks that are coming out.

I disagree with those who say we are 2 or 3 years from being competitive and that we need to blow it up. Atlanta and Miami turned into playoff teams after terrible seasons. We need to blow our O-line up, that is it. And I believe the line can be turned around in one offseason if we draft well.

The D-line was turned into a strength in one year, there is no reason that they cannot do the same on the other side.

Btw...I will be so happy when Randal-Fail and Heyer are gone.[/quote]

Strong points all around...although I think it will take very solid talent evaluation (leading up to the draft) to turn the oline around in one year. We likely will have the 6th or 7th overall pick, so the top LT or even top two LTs will be gone. I really hope next year is deep w/ LT talent. Interior lineman is perfect spot for our high 2nd round pick, but there again it must be a wise selection to get a solid C/G starter.

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A combination of players drafted (I would draft OL w/ the first 2 picks) sign some FA linemen and use our young guys and voila the line is better overnite. I would also go for Toby Gerhart RB (The next Riggins) from Stanford.

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;617926]This is absolutely correct and why I am not even going to pay attention to the quarterbacks that are coming out.

I disagree with those who say we are 2 or 3 years from being competitive and that we need to blow it up. [B]Atlanta and Miami turned into playoff teams after terrible seasons.[/B] We need to blow our O-line up, that is it. And I believe the line can be turned around in one offseason if we draft well.

The D-line was turned into a strength in one year, there is no reason that they cannot do the same on the other side.

Btw...I will be so happy when Randal-Fail and Heyer are gone.[/quote]

Both of those teams got quality QB's before the year started. Atlanta miraculously hit on a franchise guy with the 3rd pick and Miami lucked out when Pennington got cut to make room for Farve. Also if memory serves me correctly Atlanta gave up 47 sacks in 2007. As of week 5 they've only given up 19 sacks since the opener in 2008. This was with virtually the same line. Though they did invest draft picks (1st for Sam Baker and a 2nd for Justin Blalock).

I mean I'm all for rebuilding the line and maybe we already have the QB we need in JC but it should be noted that both teams found top notch QB's going into the season while retooling their lines. Also just a note, Sam Baker only played half the games due to injury and was the only new addition to the starting 5 for Atlanta though they should get credit for using a high draft pick on a lineman.

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Several good posts.. Especially the part about drafting T and C/G; free agency is there for a reason, we can sign a legitimate #1 qb.. I don't know which qb will be free agent but we just have to try and go after for the best one available right away.. Just a two years or so contract, just until he proves that he's good enough or whatever then we extend the contract.. I wouldn't mind signing a FA o-line men too, especially for depth.. Although I would like to keep Heyer as backup..

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[quote=Lotus;617896]We could draft o-line in the 1st and 2nd rounds and then go QB in the 4th round. What do you think?[/quote]

This is actually what I would recommend, but would you install the 4th rounder immediately or do you have him sit a year? That's the big question. If you have him sit, one of Colt, Campbell, Collins, or a FA acquisition has to start next season.

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Draft a OT, we should get a good one considering it looks like we will be in the top 5 on draft day. Draft a Center in the 2nd and then take the best QB/RB in the 4th unless we can trade up/down and acquire picks in the 3rd then do so there.
JC and CP have been hard to watch this season, yeah you can blame the oline but even when they had chances to make plays they didnt. JC misses Moss who is wide open for a walk in td and CP breaks a run and cant score a td with a lead blocker on one defender --id say most starting QB/RB in this league get the 6 in the similiar situations--

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[quote=jdlea;617999]This is actually what I would recommend, but would you install the 4th rounder immediately or do you have him sit a year? That's the big question. If you have him sit, one of Colt, Campbell, Collins, or a FA acquisition has to start next season.[/quote]

I suppose it depends on how well he can grasp the offense in training camp. But, theoretically, we would need to keep someone else around to mind the store while the young guy matured.

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;617901]That sounds like the plan. Another scenario would be to trade down and also get a 3rd or 4th rounder.[/quote]

I like the idea. We need a quality RB too. We need three different RBs, not three versions of CP.

This sounds good to me.

1st = OT
2nd = OG
4th = QB or RB
5th = C
6th = OG
7th = OT

It's a shame we're already talking about the draft. I don't see any Cs this year as good as Mack. If I were the GM, I'd trade Landry, Portis, and Moss for him.

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[quote=Trample the Elderly;618093] We need a quality RB to[/quote]

Have you seen Toby Gerhart RB from Stanford play? The guy is an absolute beast, in my opinion this guy will be the next Riggins. He had 15 TD's last year and so far 13 for this year.

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[quote=Trample the Elderly;618093]I like the idea. We need a quality RB too. We need three different RBs, not three versions of CP.

This sounds good to me.

1st = OT
2nd = OG
4th = QB or RB
5th = C
6th = OG
7th = OT

It's a shame we're already talking about the draft. I don't see any Cs this year as good as Mack. If I were the GM, I'd trade Landry, Portis, and Moss for him.[/quote]

Like the list but i would put a Center over the OG. I think we can get by with the ones we have while Rabach is horrid.

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Not a big fan of Rabach lately myself, but does anyone remember the pre-Rabach days? Larry Moore ring a bell? That was when we truly had some horrible center play. Rabach is average, but what's up with his shotgun snaps this year? And that botched snap at the end of the game when he seemed to not even know that JC was in the gun. :doh:

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;618097]Have you seen Toby Gerhart RB from Stanford play? The guy is an absolute beast, in my opinion this guy will be the next Riggins. He had 15 TD's last year and so far 13 for this year.[/quote]

Yeah, I looked him up after I read one of your posts last night. I don't get to see a lot of West Coast football in Virginia. We see ACC and SEC stuff. Do you have any UTUBES?

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[quote=DBUCHANON101;618098]Like the list but i would put a Center over the OG. I think we can get by with the ones we have while Rabach is horrid.[/quote]

Do you have any names?

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[quote=Mattyk72;618108]Not a big fan of Rabach lately myself, but does anyone remember the pre-Rabach days? Larry Moore ring a bell? That was when we truly had some horrible center play. Rabach is average, but what's up with his shotgun snaps this year? And that botched snap at the end of the game when he seemed to not even know that JC was in the gun. :doh:[/quote]

I would bench Rabach and start Williams the rookie FA from Maryland that was highly touted by Bugel.

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;618114]I would bench Rabach and start Williams the rookie FA from Maryland that was highly touted by Bugel.[/quote]

If we're going to throw up our hands and say let's see what we have for next season, then I'd agree with you. Buges said he was happy with a lot of our O-linemen in the offseason, IE: Chaz Reinhardt, Mont-go-merry, Armstrong, etc. . . .

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;618097]Have you seen Toby Gerhart RB from Stanford play? The guy is an absolute beast, in my opinion this guy will be the next Riggins. He had 15 TD's last year and so far 13 for this year.[/quote]

I've watched a lot of Gerhart this year. He's solid. I've heard the comparisons to Riggins and Alstott, but I can't help but wondering if the reason for that isn't as much due to skills as it is due to...well, you know

I certainly wouldn't object to him in the mid-rounds though

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[quote=SmootSmack;618119]I certainly wouldn't object to him in the mid-rounds though[/quote]

That's my hope that he lasts into the 4th round and we snap him up.